User talk:Chris Day: Difference between revisions

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m (Text replacement - "North American Network Operators Group" to "North American Network Operators Group")
 
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==Notes to self==
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{{User:Chris day/useful links}}
{{r|European Physical Society}}
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{{r|EPS}}
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[http://www.eps.org/ The European Physical Society]
 
<nowiki>{{Quote|A|B|C|D|E}}</nowiki> gives:
{{Quote|A|B|C|D|E}}
 
:<nowiki>{{PAGESIZE:User talk:{{BASEPAGENAME}}}}</nowiki> gives {{PAGESIZE:User talk:{{BASEPAGENAME}}}}
:<nowiki>{{PAGESIZE:User talk:{{BASEPAGENAME}}|R}}</nowiki> gives {{PAGESIZE:User talk:{{BASEPAGENAME}}|R}}
:<nowiki>{{#ifexpr: {{PAGESIZE:User talk:{{BASEPAGENAME}}|R}} > 3000 | large|lemma }}</nowiki> gives {{#ifexpr: {{PAGESIZE:User talk:{{BASEPAGENAME}}|R}} > 3000 | large|lemma }}
:<nowiki>{{#ifexpr: {{PAGESIZE:User talk:{{BASEPAGENAME}}|R}} < 3000 | large|lemma }}</nowiki> gives {{#ifexpr: {{PAGESIZE:User talk:{{BASEPAGENAME}}|R}} < 3000 | large|lemma }}
See:
:- [[/Notes to self]]
:- [[/Previous discussions]]
 
[{{fullurl:Special:Movepage|wpOldTitle=Test_articleA&wpReason=Testing}} movelink]
 
[http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?action=edit&preload=Template%3APreload_Article&title={{urlencode:{{{1}}}}} <font color=#CA3D10>{{{1}}}</font>]
*How should the r template deal with  links to catalogs?  Could use a separate 4th level definition but which related articles page should it link too?
*Apostrophe bug means that the tabs are not the correct color.  Fix the code to account so the if statement compares the url code.
* Manual placement of <nowiki>{{dabdef|Fossilization}}</nowiki> needs the basepagename added manually too.  If follow Noel's description will need a field in the metadata for any article that is the target of the basename redirect. No other way to figure out the basename for the {{tl|dambigbox}} template otherwise.  Alternative is do have a much more manually (for example, <nowiki>{{dambigbox|the process in [[palaeontology]]|Fossilization}}</nowiki> ) template but probably better to have it placed automatically. Drawa figure to make this more comprehensible.
* Need to write a summary document describing the uses of {{tl|RD}}, {{tl|R}}, {{tl|Rpl}} and {{tl|pl}}.
* For {{tl|R}} should probably remove the {{tl|Dabdef}} template and just write what is required.  Could then have a specific template for the disambiguation request for a definition page if it is needed (I suspect no one would use it and instead just make the disambiguation page).  One exception might be Daniel in combination with the RD template at [[CZ:List of words with multiple uses]]
* Subpages template misinterprets location on the talk approval talk page (not sure I can replicate this).
* Think over subpages format. Possibly need subpages style as third layer template with intermediary ones to define the magicword variables? Initiated this, see {{tl|Parameters1}} and  {{tl|Parameters2}} in conjunction with {{tl|Subpages test}} and  {{tl|Subpage style test}}.
*If no footer or header add specific category to note this fact, preferably no other categories too. See [[homeopathy/Trials]] example.
*[http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Air_pollution_dispersion_modeling/Catalogs/Models/Definition must think about the status of these sub and subsub defintion pages].  Note also that they exist as definition onlys rather than recognising the existance of the basepagename.
*Lemma articles mess up the related only category such that related articles can only exist if there is some metadata.  Try and write around (is this true?  not sure I can replicate this either).
*Finish userplan simplification and more focus on workgroup participation.
*Fix move cluster - partially done, still need to fix approval page bug (when article has no approval page or when there is already an approval page present)
*{{tl|Lemma}} idea,  see {{tl|Test lemma}} too. Need to utlilise the pagesize magic word so we get a lemma when there is no, or very little text in an article.
*optional photo credit
*Article task and notification list
*Metadata edits always current so should tie speedydelete etc to that one page. This will get around the maintenance categories often being out of date.
*<s>Think more about /Catalog/Masterlists</s> See [[User_talk:Aleta_Curry#Masterlist]] for examples. Fix the same page blank code, At present there is a capital letter requirement bug as well as need to get second string if used. Also catalog masterlists and transclusion in general. No need to maintain information at multiple sites.  Is substitution bot an option?
*Figure out utlity of transcluding refs with the r template redirects.
*Make error boxes more concise and smaller.
*Finish up the periodic table navigation, specifically whether element data shoul be in a switch page on on individual subpages
 
<nowiki>{{r|Nova (astronomy)#Supernova|Supernova}}</nowiki> gives: {{r|Nova (astronomy)#Supernova|Supernova}}
<nowiki>{{r|Supernova}}</nowiki> gives: {{r|Supernova}}
::Iteresting that the top version does not work as expected.  Might need to fic the r template to asccomodate tis , if possible. 06:54, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
 
 
::[[/Wanted]]
Need to figure out the disconnects between the rare earths periodic table of elementses and the template:periodic.  Did uranium, but others need fixing too. See [[Uranium/Periodic table of elements]]
 
:[[:Category:False Start Move]]
:[[:Category:Incomplete Move]]
:[[:Category:DeleteMove]]
 
== Too many pop-up  alert messages when starting a new article ==
 
Chris, two things that have niggled me for quite some while:
 
*'''Whenever I create a new article in my Sandbox and then use the "Start Article" link in the left-hand navigation panel:'''
 
As soon as I cut and paste the article from my sandbox into the new article (including the subpages template) and save it, three or so large popup alerts are displayed on the main article page (ahead of the article text) telling me why they have appeared and alerting me to do certain things (like filling out the Metadata template). They must be overwhelmingly confusing to a new user writing his first article. The various pop-ups are separated by a heck of a lot of white space ... so that one must scroll down quite far to even see the main article text that I just cut and pasted from my sandbox.
 
Can those pop-ups be made smaller, with less excessive white space between them? Or can they be combined into one pop-up and made less wordy?
 
*'''After I've created the Definition subpage and the Talk subpage:'''
 
The Talk page has more pop-ups telling me to create the Related Articles, Bibliography  and External Links subpages. Again, one must scroll down to below those pop-ups before adding a post or reading any existing posts.
 
Once the Main Article, Metadata template and Talk page have been created, why not autiomatically create the Definition, the Related Articles, the Bibliography and the External Links pages complete with the subpages template included in each of them? Then, instead of all those pop-ups on the Talk page, all that would be required is one sentence stating that the Definition, the Related Articles, the Bibliography and External Links subpage need to be populated as soon as possible.
 
I think the above suggestions would greatly simplify the task of starting a new article. What do you think? [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 07:00, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
 
: The messages (including the whitespace) for starting an article could easily be changed in [[Template:Orphan subpage]].
: Concerning the talk page messages I have already filed a wish in [[CZ:Wishlist]] "Obtrusive requests to edit subpages". Again, they could easily be made smaller without having to create them at once. (I do not think that it is useful to create empty pages.)
: However, both messages are as they are on purpose. Thus the pro-and-contra should be discussed, at least briefly.
: (I agree with you, Milton) --[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 11:13, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
:::Glad someone else said it.  I thought it was just my ignorance, you know, like it wouldn't bother people born into the Internet era. 
:::Not to insult the original crafters, because we've all been working in the dark on this and I still think that clusters are a brilliant idea, we just need to tweak every once in a while.
:::While we're at it, could we PLEASE remove Albert from the metadata fill in form?  I keep re-creating page [[Albert Einstein]] and getting a 'you're messing this up' error message, which confuses me no end.
:::And let's remove CanE and AusE as options in the language variants.  No one ''writes'' in Canadian English or Australian English, we might as well have Indian English or Trinidadian English.  We only need American English and British (or Commonwealth, if you'd rather) English.
:::[[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 22:11, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
 
:::: I have removed "Albert Einstein" from the field in the blank template. (I hope that nobody minds.) On this occasion I found a Metadata template wrongly attributed to Einstein. (There may be more. And there are quite a lot of Metadata requiring "abc=Einstein, Albert" that will need to be fixed.) --[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 01:31, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 
:::::In retrospect, it should have been Werner Heisenberg. --[[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 03:23, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
::::::You're just so certain of that, aren't you.  [[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 14:14, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
 
:::::::I do not think these alerts should go completely but we could hide most of them behind ONE generic message per page saying "Hey, something is missing or wrong. For details, click [show].". An example for such hidden stuff is at [[:Category:Bot-created Related Articles subpages#Index]]. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 15:09, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
 
::::::::I happen to like the alerts.  As rarely as I create and/or move pages, I don't remember the procedures and all that has to happen; and I'm not willing to go look up those procedures every time.  But having the alerts reminds me of what I need to do to get the article "off the ground."  It's a checklist, but not in a checklist format.  I was unaware of the Einstein Bug.  I don't know that I'd like the "something's missing" format either.  It smacks of "we know something you don't, he, he."  If the templating can tell me what needs to be done to get the cluster to an operating standard, then it should. [[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 16:16, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
 
:::::::::I think you have to place yourself in the shoes of a newbie, Russell -- all of these alerts, and *long* blank spaces down through which one has to scroll, are *baffling*.  "Hey, they asked me to create an article, I did, and NOW what?!  WTF is goin' on here?  Where's my article?!  What am I supposed to do with THIS?!"  Etc. etc.  Even to me, after starting maybe 150 articles, I find it annoying.  And THEN there's the stoopid Talk page, with the big blank space in the middle with the mysterious boxes on the right telling us to start a Related Articles page and a Bibliography, and god knows what else!  It looks terrible!  Fortunately I've found an answer to this:  I click on each one of these demands, go to the newly opened page, type in an "x", save it, and do the same for the next one.  Which at least cleans up the Talk page.  Let's ask ourselves: for *whom* are we creating these minotaurian complexes?  Howard and his Lemma articles? Heisenberg and Einstein and Schrodinger and his Kat to do Thought Experiments with? or for Billy Bob Thudpucker in Las Cruces, New Mexico, who just wants to write a brief article about the third-string banjo picker of the Rolling Stones?  And while we're asking questions, I wonder how many of the dozens of new Authors who arrive here and then *never* contribute anything have actually *started* to write something, and then got scared away by all the inscrutable baloney they're then *apparently* required to do?  So they curse, or shrug, and go away, never to return.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 16:30, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
 
::::::::::I would consider pages started empty or with an "x" as their single content as close to vandalism. The blank spaces can be removed easily, and it should also be possible to place the talk page messages more effectively. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 16:35, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
 
:::::::::::If the blank spaces and messages can be removed or made less intrusive, then why aren't they?  Who put this stuff in there in the first place? And putting an X in there isn't remotely *close* to being vandalism -- it's exactly the same thing as going into an edited page and putting in a Null so that the damn server or whatever decides to notice that a change has been made to the Metadata page, such as when we change the ABC and then it doesn't show up on the Workgroup page until the Null has been put in. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 16:50, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
 
(undent)Can a variable be set in a user profile, which is then available to templates? The default might be "newbie". Russell would want a "verbose" mode. I would want to suppress the "suggestions"--in user design speak, "terse" or "expert" mode.
 
In some respects, the idea of the lemma came about as a means of entering minimum useful content without going through full cluster setup, some of which will never be relevant. 
 
Daniel, separating the issue of removing spaces, there is no real reason to demand External Links or Bibliography. Many articles will never have them, so they can go to the list of optional pages such as Catalogs and Debate Guide. Related Articles as a suggestion, yes. The suggestion of having other articles link to this article is useful only to people that understand the overall structure, who then should not need the reminder.  Now, a link to a tutorial on knowledge navigation is another matter.
 
Hayford, your point is well taken about scaring away newbies. The newbie mode might even suppress anything beyond the minimum and post the article to a page for more experienced people to clean up. Remember the art historian? How much work would we have saved if she had just written the article and let us do the other pages?  This is one of the reasons I hesitate to make instant Editors.
 
Eduzendium also shows that it's rather overwhelming; Daniel's macros/templates helped a lot. If I may try an analogy, we are "cataloging". When I went to work for the Library of Congress, I was amazed to discover how much skill and knowledge is needed to create a correct catalog card. There is an enormous difference between even the scholarly ''users'' of the Library, and the professional catalogers. We are simpler at present, but does the newbie even notice the "workgroup" tab on the left? At LC, the catalogers needed to go far beyond that, but both are still controlled vocabularies. I still am confused when something is "Media" vs. "Journalism". --[[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 16:46, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
:I happen to think the templating here is exceptionally sophisticated and I appreciate that it can sculpt the CZ experience.  I agree with the above that some of the mechanics are skewed (e.g., having to create a null edit in order for the server to update its status), but the "white space" experience, I think, is not intended for you to scroll through to get to the article; it is intended for you to fix the problem that is identified.  But for people who create a lot of pages, I can see that it might be tedious to go through these hoops again and again when all you do is a null edit.  Also, I see the problem of EZ.  I take about 200 students a semester through the learning process of editing on the MediaWiki software and I can tell you that for a lot of them, even learning where to click to actually open the edit window can be a challenging undertaking.  Complicating the scene with sophisticated templating raises the intimidation (or fear factor) of the site. 
:So I see three levels of users here.
:# An author new to wikis who doesn't want to or will be overwhelmed with cluster set up.  (maybe in the article creation process the article could automatically be tagged (category) with a request to set up cluster; experienced hands could take care of the list.)
:# An experienced author who likes the process checklist to set up a cluster.
:# An experienced cluster setter-upper who knows what to do and can't be bothered with the alerts. 
:Also I see issues of what exactly is needed for a bare-bones cluster set up: Metadata, certainly; definitions? maybe.  Bibliography? probably not.  talk page? shouldn't need a null edit.  [[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 17:27, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
 
::I [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Template%3AMetadata_to_finish&diff=100630370&oldid=100580612 took out] some of the talk page alerts &mdash; feedback welcome. Will take a look at the page creation stuff later. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 17:56, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
 
::: Since this has evolved to a discussion of the merits and dismerits:
::: I think that the information seen from the subpages template is enough: It shows what subpages exist. Those who know about them and are willing to work on them can easily start there -- if they do not want then they will ignore the templates as well. (I do ...: many pages do not need external links, and many will not get a bibliography, and why create either when one has no good idea what to enter? The same is true for definitions - better no definition than a bad or incorrect one.)
::: Moreover, CZ explicitly encourages to start articles the "easy way" (see [[CZ:Start Article]]) -- without subpages.
::: -[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 23:00, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
 
::::I now also hid the alert messages for missing metadata. The following pages are some of those that do not yet have the {{tl|subpages}} template, so you can use them to fiddle around with the new mechanism and to provide further feedback:
{{r|Nucleoside||:::::}}
{{r|Nucleotide||:::::}}
{{r|Lipoprotein||:::::}}
{{r|Critical pathway||:::::}}
{{r|Third molar||:::::}}
{{r|Transcendentalism||:::::}}
{{r|Hardy–Weinberg principle||:::::}}
{{r|Sleep initiation and maintenance disorders||:::::}}
{{r|Hypertensive urgency||:::::}}
{{r|Aldosterone antagonist||:::::}}
{{r|Team-based learning||:::::}}
{{r|Agile software development||:::::}}
{{r|Alpha adrenergic blocker||:::::}}
{{r|British Doctors Aspirin Trial||:::::}}
{{r|Health Professionals Follow-up Study||:::::}}
{{r|Transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation||:::::}}
{{r|Autoimmune polyendocrinopathy||:::::}}
{{r|Bacteriuria||:::::}}
{{r|Janus kinase||:::::}}
{{r|Serum osmolality||:::::}}
{{r|Vena cava filter||:::::}}
{{r|Rifampin||:::::}}
{{r|Patient discharge||:::::}}
{{r|Nephrotic syndrome||:::::}}
{{r|Hyponatremia||:::::}}
{{r|American Heart Association||:::::}}
{{r|Craniocerebral trauma||:::::}}
{{r|Palpitation||:::::}}
{{r|Apolipoprotein||:::::}}
 
{{r|Respiratory failure||:::::}}
{{r|Antiphospholipid syndrome||:::::}}
{{r|Intravenous infusion||:::::}}
{{r|Cytochrome P-450 CYP2C19||:::::}}
{{r|Chronic fatigue syndrome||:::::}}
{{r|Human Immunodeficiency Virus||:::::}}
{{r|Sick sinus syndrome||:::::}}
{{r|Microscopic polyangiitis||:::::}}
{{r|Queckenstedt's maneuver||:::::}}
{{r|Mechanical ventilator||:::::}}
{{r|Dysphagia||:::::}}
{{r|Natriuretic peptide||:::::}}
{{r|Ideal body weight||:::::}}
{{r|Diffusion magnetic resonance imaging||:::::}}
{{r|Reserpine||:::::}}
{{r|Thrombophilia||:::::}}
{{r|Spontaneous abortion||:::::}}
{{r|Protein S||:::::}}
{{r|Thrombophilia||:::::}}
{{r|Zygapophyseal joint||:::::}}
{{r|Opiate dependence||:::::}}
{{r|Vertebra||:::::}}
{{r|Tramadol||:::::}}
{{r|Pre-eclampsia||:::::}}
{{r|Urinary retention||:::::}}
{{r|Pheochromocytoma||:::::}}
{{r|Glycoprotein IIb-IIIa inhibitors||:::::}}
{{r|Veterinary medicine||:::::}}
{{r|Polymyalgia rheumatica||:::::}}
{{r|Principal components analysis||:::::}}
{{r|GTP-binding protein||:::::}}
{{r|Intracranial hemorrhage||:::::}}
{{r|Adderall||:::::}}
{{r|Habitual abortion||:::::}}
{{r|Diagnostic error||:::::}}
 
::::--[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 13:55, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
Daniel i think your solution of hiding things looks great.  Milt does this satisfy you? I admit the templates are a pain it is important to have some kind of visual reminder that there is an incompatibility between the metadata and the article.  Hopefully they are more subtle now. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 23:09, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 
:That's great, Daniel!  Many thanks for getting rid of all of the baloney!  I just created [[John Dickson Carr]] to test your changes and everything is terrific except ONE thing: I foresee BIG problems ahead if you leave things exactly as they now are.  Once one has created the article and saved it, on top of the article one sees something like '''needs metadate''' and '''show'''.  If one clicks on the '''metadata''' link, one is directed to the page '''explaining''' metadata.  I will bet you that *some* people will try to put their metadata into the template shown on that page!  My suggestion: change the wording to '''what metadata means''' and '''go here to add metadata for this particular article'''.  Thanks! [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 23:47, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 
::Chris, I'll comment after I next create a new article ... which I hope will be a few days from now. Thanks, [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 08:49, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 
:::Ad Hayford, I changed the phrasing to avoid that kind of confusion.
 
:::Ad Milt, proper functioning of the templates can also be validated by putting the subpages template on any of the articles in the long list I prepared above.
 
:::--[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 15:43, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 
::::Thanks, Daniel, that's a lot better!  Now one last thing.  When you click on the '''show''' button and are taken to the next page, you are shown some info at the top of the page BUT there is then a LARGE blank space beneath that info, so that unless you KNOW that you should scroll down to the bottom of the page, you won't know that you SHOULD scroll down in order to click on the "fill out the metadata" link etc.  I'm sure that many people would go to this page, simply look at the top of it, wonder what the hell they were doing there, and then leave, *without* filling out any of the metadata.  Can't you get rid of this useless blank space? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 16:32, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 
:::::Done. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 22:17, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 
::::::Great!  I'll have to create another new article (sigh) to check things out one last time.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 22:40, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 
:::::::Daniel and Chris: I just created a new article, [[Crude oil desalter]], and I must agree that the changes made in all those pop-up alerts is a great improvement over what they were before I started this discussion. Thanks to all. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 05:24, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
 
::::::::That seems just about perfect, Daniel, at least given all the previous template stuff that you have to work with.  I just created [[Philip Atlee]] and have a one *minor* suggestion. When the main article has been created, we now have a header in black that says something like "The metadata is missing; if you feeling like doing it, please create it; details" then there's a blue link that says SHOW.  I suggest that you rewrite the longer stuff to say something like, "The metadata is missing; if you feel up to creating it, please click on the SHOW link to the right" and REMOVE the word "details" -- it's *slightly* confusing.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 23:31, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
 
::::::::: Good suggestion. I made the change. --[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 23:57, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
 
::::::::::Peter, that's perfect!  Kudos to you and Daniel.  I really think that there is now going to be a '''lot''' less confusion! In fact, I'll drink to that! (Goes off to make a Scotch and soda....) [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 01:50, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 
== Moving ==
 
Hi Chris. From what I can tell, you've been trying to clean up a few articles and put pages in their proper places recently. I noticed that this has resulted in a [[Loyalists (United Kingdom)/Bibliography|bibliography]] and [[Loyalists (United Kingdom)/External Links|external links]] page attached to an article about a different subject.
 
As I'm merely a lowly 'author', I don't think I am allowed to move pages. I thought about cutting and pasting, but then I thought it might be better if the pages were moved properly.. so I thought I'd drop you a wee note.
 
The article the subpages belong to is, I believe, [[United Empire Loyalists]].
 
Cheers (and sorry for adding to your workload!). --[[User:Mal McKee|Mal McKee]] 03:05, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 
: I moved the two files. By the way: There are no "lowly" authors. You could have made the move yourself. (You are only asked to be carful, of course.) --[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 10:06, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 
== Chris, or someone else who knows what s/he's doing... ==
 
...could I prevail upon you to do the archiving thing with the [[CZ:Monthly Write-a-Thon|January Write-a-Thon]] and leave me a blank page for February?  Thanks! [[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 03:49, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 
== More on metadata ==
 
I'm sorry to throw the proverbial spanner, boys, but this didn't occur to me before.
 
I have only just created a new article since the (excellent, I may add) changes to the setup.
 
Could I just ask, if it's possible, for the 'create a metadata page if you feel up to it' notice box thingy to appear *after* a body has 'saved' the new article, not before?  At present it appears if you "preview".  Now, if you click through to metadata creation on a "preview" page, you have to remember to '''go back and 'save' the original, ''or all your hard work is lost!''
 
I haven't (yet) tried it the other way, so I don't know what appears if you ignore the 'create metadata' bit and just click 'save' first.
 
[[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 01:18, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 
:You write: "Could I just ask, if it's possible, for the 'create a metadata page if you feel up to it' notice box thingy to appear *after* a body has 'saved' the new article, not before?". I'm not sure I understand this exactly. How do you normally start a new article? [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 04:25, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
::This problem/request was not related to the "Who's on First?" metadata problem, right? [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 04:55, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 
:::Chris, I think I recognize Aleta's concern. Once the subpages template goes into a new article, "preview article" brings up the metadata prompts. From bitter experience, if I write a new article of any appreciable length, I make sure to save before inserting the template. It's not hard to get lost in the prompts, decide not to fill them in, but neglect to save and thus lose the work. --[[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 05:11, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 
::::Now I understand, I never use preview so I have not been down that route. All I can suggest is bold letters saying '''first save your work'''. Would that be sufficient? [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 05:13, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 
::::: I just added a warning message to save. Hope it helps. However, one will never be able to prevent all mistakes. If there are too much warnings they will not be read anymore ... Probably one has to make one's mistakes, and learn from them. <br> Preview can be usefull. I sometimes use preview, and sometimes not. Sometimes I wished I would have used it instead of showing my stupidity in the history ;-) --[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 10:25, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 
::::::Yes, Howard got it in one.  I'm not as brave as you are, Chris, I almost always use 'preview', I look entirely too foolish otherwise.  Trust me, no one should see my 'scrap paper'! The down side, of course, is how many times I forget to actually 'save'--sigh [[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 10:41, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
::::::p.s. Chris, was the Who's on First metadata problem caused by my mistake in the ''status'' field?  Let's face it:  I'm a genius! [[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 10:47, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 
::::::: Just a hint: If one has forgotten to save it is often still possible to go back to that edit page using the the browser's back button. --[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 12:44, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 
::::::::Er...yes, but when I say 'forgotten', I really mean it.  Like, I've shut down the computer, turned off the generator, taken the dogs for a walk, had my hair done (okay, that's a lie), made dinner...and then I come back next day wondering where that incredibly excellent 240 page cluster that I started is! [[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 22:15, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 
== The "Fair Use" upload summary ==
 
Chris: In the last few days, I uploaded two logos by claiming Fair Use. They were the logos for [[ASTM International]] (ASTM) and for [[International Organization for Standardization]] (ISO). When I went to ''CZ:UPLOAD / I am not the copyright holder / This use of the work is Fair Use'', I arrived at the upload file form to be filled out. It has a '''one-line window''' in which to write the rationale for claiming Fair Use (i.e., the window labeled "Notes").
 
Here is what I wrote as my rationale: "<font color=purple>The logo image is used to identify the International Organization for Standards. The significance of the logo is to help the reader identify the organization, assure the readers that they have reached the right article containing critical commentary about the organization, and illustrate the organization's intended branding message in a way that words alone could not convey. The entire logo is used to convey the meaning intended and avoid tarnishing or misrepresenting the intended image. The logo is of a size and resolution sufficient to maintain the quality intended by the organization, without being unnecessarily high resolution. Because it is a logo there is almost certainly no free equivalent. Any substitute that is not a derivative work would fail to convey the meaning intended, would tarnish or misrepresent its image, or would fail its purpose of identification or commentary.</font>"
 
It was very difficult to write all of that into a one-line window and to check it for spelling, grammar and omissions. Is there any way to revise that upload file form so that the "Notes" window is at least 6-8 lines wide?
 
By the way, most of my above rationale was borrowed from WP ... because I could find no similar rationale help in CZ. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 04:27, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
 
:I made a reply ing the forum.  But in case you missed that.  For me, I use the upload primarily as a decision tree to get the correct templates. I often make changes and additions to them after the upload is complete.  In this case that might be the best way to go.
 
:As to the technical suggestion of adding a larger edit window.  I would, if I could, but I'm not sure where to make such changes.  Or what to change.  Possibly Peter might have a better idea? [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 04:30, 8 February 2010 (UTC) test
 
== Thanks for getting the water freezing point straightened out (if it just stays that way). ==
 
Thanks, Chris. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 06:28, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 
==New template==
Hi, Chris. Thanks for your offer of further help (not that I can find it...)
 
Can you make the '''unknown letter''' at [[Template:Common misspellings prolog]] show itself, please?
 
Ta! [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 17:42, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 
: Where are you not seeing it?  [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 17:44, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
::I think I understand your point now.  It will not show on the template itself.  But look at the page where the template is used and you will see the correct letter there. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 17:50, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
That's what I thought I was doing - but anyway, it all seems to be fine now - thanks. [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 18:03, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 
== Pedia tricks ==
 
Thanks for following up on it! --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 17:26, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
 
== Categories, bots and templates ==
 
Categories can be removed fairly easily by a bot. Let me know if that would be worth it (haven't found the page you use to track these). Also, could you please take a look at {{tl|Basic elemental def}}, perhaps in conjunction with [[User:Daniel Mietchen/Sandbox/Elements]]? I am thinking of prepopulating the empty pages via preload templates, but would appreciate some more input. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 19:23, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
 
:If the bot can do that, great, although It might be tricky to program since it might not be able to predict every type of category or combination to remove? I just made an addition to your template.  Check it out on an element page and see what you think. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 19:48, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
 
::The bot can in principle be given a list of applicable categories, or wildcards could be used in defining their names. No need to program for combinations &mdash; it will simply edit the same page again when working on the next category.
::Thanks &mdash; the addition is valuable, but the current setting (not mine, by the way) is not compatible with {{tl|r}}:
{{r|Neptunium||:::}}
::--[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 20:44, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
 
:::Now I understand.  i thought you wanted to populate the element article pages but you're actually after a template to add the definition. I'll modify it as best i can, will probably have to have the definition pages <nowiki>{{BASEPAGENAME}}</nowiki> added as a parameter, ''i.e.'' <nowiki>{{Basic elemental def|Parameter}}</nowiki>, since it will not transclude properly otherwise. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 20:55, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
 
::::I tweaked it enough now that i think it will work with the r template and also with a [[Ruthenium|lemma article]]. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 21:29, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
Daniel, are you trying to modify the template so it will work for the "Hydrogen (element)" format?  I noticed that you had all those links on your page too. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 22:21, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
 
: Daniel and Chris, I hope you do not mind, but I wonder if it would not be better -- and require the same (or even less) effort -- to create the definitions with a bot (using the same logic as in the template)? Or even manually copy the definitions from Daniel's page to the definitions? --[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 23:58, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
 
::I don't know for sure but I was thinking that Daniel might be planning to use a substitute script along those lines? [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 00:56, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
 
:::I am not too eager on using a bot for just those 100 elemental definitions (too time-consuming, relatively speaking, to get it approved), so I thought I would create those pages by means of preload templates, similar to the [[CZ:Eduzendium]] course setup wizard. Ideally, there would be no piping (e.g. by integrating {{tl|Basic elemental def}} with {{tl|r}}.
:::I do plan, however, to set up a bot that creates lemma articles in place of empty pages for which a definition already exists.
:::On a related note, I am inclined to think that <nowiki>{{r|foo}}</nowiki> should also display [[Foobar/Definition]] if [[Foo]] redirects to [[Foobar]] and [[Foo/Definition]] does not exist. No idea how to make the template recognize a redirect page, though. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 18:40, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
 
::::As for [[Hydrogen]] vs. [[Hydrogen (element)]], I would prefer the latter to be applied throughout, but think that would be up to the chemists to decide. My idea was just to prepare the templates such that a coherent system can be easily achieved. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 18:46, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
 
I think using (element) is not a bad idea, but I'm not a chemist.
 
As for <nowiki>{{r|foo}}</nowiki> using foobar definition if there is a redirect from foo->foobar, I agree that might be good but I'm not sure if it is possible to read the target if the redirect? You do know you can pipelink with the {{tl|R}} template?
With regard to populating the pages.  If you want to use all the subpages with the properties for each element they will have to be moved to the new name, ''i.e.'' [[Boron/Atomic number]] to [[Boron (element)/Atomic number]] if you do not want to have a parameter in the template. This could be done easily by moving every element along with all its subpages. I'll modify the {{tl|Basic elemental def}} template so it does not need a piped parameter. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 19:22, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
 
: May I remind you that using single properties subpages is a disputed matter? --[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 00:33, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
 
::I'm aware of that.  So far, I am just asking questions of Daniel and tinkering with the template since I'm not 100% sure of what he is proposing. One thing I do think is important is to have a basic page for each element. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 02:04, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
 
:::I am aware of that too, and it actually inspired me to have another look at the matter, thus prompting my tinkering with these templates. The point here, however, is to have a consistent format, which can be achieved by means of a template transclude predefined content onto the definition page, and it can easily be adapted to either the current system with multiple properties subpages or the discussed alternative with one centralized metadata-like page. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 23:20, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
 
::::On pipelinking, I am well aware of that too, but many non-bot starts of Related Articles pages are made by simply dumping in a list of related topics, formatted using {{tl|r}}, without much regard for which articles actually exist. So we often have the case described above that <nowiki>{{r|foo}}</nowiki> does not bring about a definition, even though one exists at <nowiki>[[foobar/Definition]]</nowiki>, when [[Foo]] is a redirect to [[Foobar]]. I am wondering whether this is the way it should be. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 00:37, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
 
(unindent) Not related to the chemistry stuff but well within the scope of this section: Can you please take another look at [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Template%3ABot-created_related_article_subpage&diff=100643820&oldid=100616784 Template:Bot-created related article subpage], which I attempted to modify such that it accommodates Lemma articles? Example to play around with: [[Biomedical engineering]]. Thanks! --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 16:53, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
:Daniel, looks good to me. What is your rationale that these need to be distinguished?  So we can fortify our navigation network with lemma related articles pages? [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 17:47, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 
::Does not look good to me &mdash; [[:Category:Lemma Bot-created Related Articles subpages]] is full of articles which do have metadata. I suspect there is a problem with a wrongly placed pipe in the template or with the way I check for the presence of the Metadata page, but I couldn't figure out the details.
::The rationale for this distinction is that if there is no metadata, then the names of the categories at the page will be broken, since they are by default composed from the metadata. And yes, extension of the related articles grid is the purpose of the bot, which can be configured to work with lemmas too. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 20:12, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 
:::Strange.  I'll double check. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 20:14, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
::::[http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Template%3ABot-created_related_article_subpage&diff=100643918&oldid=100643820 That] was it. Thanks! --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 20:36, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 
== Automated handling of content - doubts ==
 
Sorry that I am negative. But I have serious reservations against any automatic handling of content.
Providing a standardized definition for the elements is rather easy
(and in principle I like thinking of the logic behind such programs)
but I don't think that they are really useful.
Giving the atomic number in the definiton is trivial, but not very informative.
Some element specific information (about its importance, or some peculiar property, etc.) is much better.
Now, of course, the generated definition can alway be replaced.
-- but it is much more likely that a non-existing definition is provided
than that an existing one (correct though simplistic) is rewritten.
 
Concerning the idea to automatically convert all definitions without main page to lemma articles:
I think there is a legitimate use for lemma articles (ask Howard), for definitions to redirects,
but also for definitions without a page (only intended to be used in Related Articles).
The difference is that -- if the page does exist -- a link to that page will look correct
though it may be better to link to another page. This decision cannot be made by a bot.
(For the same reason I think that one also should be careful with redirects and only use them for "correct" titles.
but not to lead from incorrect titles to a correct one.)
 
--[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 00:49, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
 
:I think I disagree with the first paragraph, while I am not sure I understand the second. But once we have a coherent template system, I wanted to bring the matter to the forums anyway. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 23:23, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
 
::The purpose of lemma articles is discussed in [http://forum.citizendium.org/index.php/topic,3065.0.html this dedicated thread] at the Forums. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 09:53, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 
== About [[National Institute of Standards and Technology]] and metadata templates without provisions for subgroups ==
 
Chris, the [[National Institute of Standards and Technology]] was written before there were any subgroups and the Metadata template specified only the Physics and the Chemistry workgroups. I added the Engineering workgroup.
 
The was no place to add a subgroup, so I added sub1, sub2 and sub3 to the template. Then I specified Chemical Engineering as sub1.
 
The bottom of the Main Article then listed the categories as Physics, Chemistry, Engineering and Chemical Engineering as it should. The [[National Institute of Standards and Technology]] shows up in the Physics and Chemistry <s>and Engineering</s> workgroups as it should do ... but I cannot get it to show up in the Engineering and Chemical Engineering subgroups despite twice making a null edit to the article's Talk page. Can you please get it to show up in the Engineering workgroup and the Chemical Engineering subgroup?
 
There are a good many of the older articles that have metadata templates which don't have sub1, sub2 and sub3 in them ... so perhaps they should be added somehow. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 17:41, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
:Milt the null edit needs to be made to the article.  i just did that and it is now listed as you'd expect. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 18:50, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 
:As to the sub1-3 field holders, yes they were a fairly recent addition so many metadata pages will not have them. Possibly Daniel could add them with a bot? [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 18:54, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 
== That's one false move for man ... ==
 
Chris, I think I understand that a page is placed in [[:Category:False Start Move]] when the metadata template is not completed, but can you explain how [[United States War Department]] shows up in that category when that page is only a redirect?  [[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 18:40, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
:This is normally because it was in the false move category and then the  metadata gets cleaned up, thus it is out of the category.  Now the flaw in our system (auto placement of categories), the article is listed in the categories that exist when it was last edited. It should be removed from the category after a minor edit to the article. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 18:44, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 
:I just looked into this a little more closely and it is actually due to it being on the talk page (See [[Talk:United_States_War_Department]]). Citizendium differs from other wiki's in that a talk page will show up on a category without the name space being listed.  BUT, sometimes you can distinguish this since it will be listed in the category under T. The reason we do this is that many of the housekeeping categories are placed on the talk page, so such categories do not have every entry starting with "Talk:". [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 19:00, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 
::Ah-ha, I've got it.  Thanks for the clarification.  Any reason why I can't do a clean-up?  [[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 19:06, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 
:::No reason, that is what you should do.  The subpages template should be removed from that page as it does not work on talk pages of redirects. The talk page could be speedydeleted if it is empty too. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 20:51, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 
::::I've discovered that some Lemma articles are showing on this list.  Any advice there?  [[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 21:33, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 
:::::I just jogged [[Evolution of language]] and it got removed from the category.  I'm not sure why it was in there, looking at the history there is no clear reason. All I can imagine is that Daniel added the subpages template to start the lemma article before the he created the definition page. In that order there would be a false start category that would disappear with the creation of the definition subpage.  In such instances the article will always need to be jogged with a null edit or it will remain in the false start category, even though the category no longer appears on the page. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 21:42, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 
::::::Correct guess on [[Evolution of language]], Chris. I did that on purpose to test how the {{tl|subpages}} machinery would react to this unusual order of page creation, and think we should somehow include this scenario into the phrasing of the warning messages, depending on whether a definition already exists or not. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 22:01, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 
Here's another quirk of the functionality: If a user creates a page all in one edit with a subpages template, the page will get categorized as "False Start Move" but it will not show up on [[:Category:False Start Move]].  It requires '''''two''''' edits to the article page before it will show on the category page.  See [[Declaration of the United Nations]].  [[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 22:33, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 
:So presumably an edit only uses categories that are already on the page. I wonder if that is the case with manually added categories? By the way, these are general issues with the wiki software. I think you'll find they exist on your in-house wiki, as well as wikipedia.  Obviously this is less of a problem when there are a lot of edits.  One of the advantages of having a ton of vandalism?? [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 22:40, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 
:I just tried creating a page and adding the category manually.  In that case the edit does register correctly. So it is the auto-generated categories, only, that need the double kick. What a pain. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 22:44, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 
==Wow==
Noticing changes that you and Howard made to the "Criticism of US foreign policy" article -- excellent idea to make military spending as a % of GDP; you guys are pros. Impressed.--[[User:Thomas Wright Sulcer|Thomas Wright Sulcer]] 01:35, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
 
==Error correction/s==
There needs to be a better way of handling external complaints than going public with the emails on the Talk page. My suggestion is to leave the 'complaint' on the appropriate workgroup forum or forward the post to the appropriate mailing list. The workgroup mailing lists and workgroup forums are currently under-utilised. 01:10, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
:Sounds like a good idea. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 01:24, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
::There are no errors in the article btw. Listen is a totally different group/line-up to Obs-Tweedle. Noddy Holder as 'roadie' is referenced. [[User:Meg Ireland|Meg Ireland]] 01:27, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
:::Having no access to the images I can't comment further, however since my information was gleaned off Bill Bonham who played in the band Obs-Tweedle, I'm fairly confident his information is correct. [[User:Meg Ireland|Meg Ireland]] 04:20, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
::::Chris, I just spoke again to Bill Bonham who confirms the article I wrote as being correct. Bill Bonham knows Noddy Holder very well. You can visit Bill Bonham's MySpace site at http://www.myspace.com/quiffo . [[User:Meg Ireland|Meg Ireland]] 08:10, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 
For what it's worth I uploaded the pictures [http://forum.citizendium.org/index.php/topic,3072.msg27620.html#msg27620 on the messageboard]. For the record I don't doubt your sources. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 17:17, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
:::::Thanks Chris. Some of those newspaper clippings appear to have been taken from scans on the LedZeppelin.com forum thread called 'HOBBSTWEEDLE' (yes I know, an incorrect name by another poster) originally scanned by a guy in Birmingham called Chris. I was a part of that thread discussion on Obs-Tweedle. I might reuse some of those clippings for the Listen article, rather than the Obs-Tweedle article since they are two different bands. While it may have been possible Noddy Holder was roadie for Listen, my insertion of Robert Plant's quote was based on Plant's recollections which are referenced from ''Q'' magazine and repeated in subsequent newspapers, and from what I could gather from my interview with Bill Bonham in 2009, before I composed the article. On the quote about Bill Bonham playing keyboards with Hari Kari while Robert Plant was singing for Obs-Tweedle, here is an email response I received from Bill this morning: 'Yes I was in Hari Kari but when I was in Hari Kari was way after Terry Reid and Led Zep came out with there first album..  Obs-Tweedle split when I joined Terry Reid or some time after I left' He is clear he didn't join Hari Kari until after Obs-Tweedle folded. [[User:Meg Ireland|Meg Ireland]] 22:16, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 
(Unindent) I don't know anything about the pros and cons of the info in this article or of the worth of the newspaper clippings -- I merely brought them to your attention.  But please review the CZ guidelines on what Wikipedia loves to kick around as Original Research.  Our own strictures are less rigid, but they *do* exist.  Larry, for instance, made it clear, when I first joined, that the fact that [[Robert A. Heinlein]] told me that one book or another was his best book could NOT be incorporated within the Heinlein article.  He encouraged me to write a Topic Informant article, however, ([[TI:Hayford Peirce/Heinlein]],) with this information in it, and a link to that article now appears at the top of the Heinlein Talk page ([[Talk:Robert A. Heinlein]]). It may be that some of the information in this article should be handled in the same manner.[[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 22:36, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
:This is not original research. The quote, which seems to have sparked that email, is referenced from a reliable published source (according to WP standards). External references are used throughout the article. There are no errors in the article. This appears to be a case of someone who confused Listen with Obs-Tweedle and/or dislikes the fact that Robert Plant referred to their idol Noddy Holder as a roadie. Nothing is 'made up' or unverifiable for this article. [[User:Meg Ireland|Meg Ireland]] 23:45, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 
:: I do not see any reason to exclude "personal communications" (they are used in scientific literature, too). Why should a personal communication to an author be excluded (if labelled as such) when a source that cites a personal communication would be accepted? --[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 16:20, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 
::: Because the source citing it is deemed to have checked and certified it. ''Authors'' on CZ have no recognized authority to do that. I don't know whether ''editors'' do. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] 17:32, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 
== Talk:Quintile ==
 
Chris, this is a minor issue, but it could lead to establishing some general policy.
By accident, I noticed that you deleted [[Talk:Quintile]] (after copying part of it to [[Talk:Percentile]]).
I left it with the redirect because it is part of the history of this page, and it does not hurt if it remains there.
(My tendency is to preserve as much history as possible, e.g., by blanking rather than deleting.)
--[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 16:31, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
 
==Thank you!==
 
Thank you for helping me to edit that list.
[[User:Nick Bagnall|Nick Bagnall]] 16:18, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 
== Copyedit to protected page ==
 
Hi Chris,
 
in {{tl|Community}}, can you please change the "Main Page" in
<pre>
|width=10% align=center style="background:#F5F5F5"|<small>[[Main Page]]</small>
</pre>
to "Welcome Page"?
Thanks!
--[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 18:43, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 
:Daniel, that was a cascading protect from kim's talk page.  I edited her page and it seems to have removed the protection on that template.  I'll change it though too. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 18:59, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 
== CZ:Request Approved Article Copyedit ==
 
Chris, with Matt being AWOL for the past 10 days or so, the list of approved articles needing copy edits is growing. I have about 10 approved articles listed there myself. Can you fix those?
 
If you need a volunteer to do some of that work, either temporarily or permanently, I am available ... but I will need some tutoring on how to do it. Regards, [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 19:49, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 
:Thanks very much for your prompt response. There is still [[Chemical engineering]] where Meg Ireland corrected spelling of succesfully to successfully. Could you do that one as well? Thanks, [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 21:06, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
::I think that was specific to the draft as it is not in the main article. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 21:22, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 
== [[Intron]] ==
 
Hi I found some new info about [[Intron]] but I wasn't sure if you wanted to include it in the article; currently it's in the sandbox [[User talk:Thomas Wright Sulcer/sandbox7]] plus some pictures and diagrams. Feel free to include it; I'm not a scientist, and I found that while I couldn't make much sense of the technical articles, when reporters explained it, I could grasp the basics.--[[User:Thomas Wright Sulcer|Thomas Wright Sulcer]] 04:56, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
 
:Looks good Thomas. Feel free to paste it into the article. I can work on it there. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 20:06, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
 
::OK, thanks Chris, like I'm not a scientist and so it's cool that you can catch glitches which reporters make.--[[User:Thomas Wright Sulcer|Thomas Wright Sulcer]] 00:42, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
 
== The [[:Image:Gasoline Fuel.jpg]] ==
 
Chris, I don't know how you did it, but your merge of the two photos is very much better than my original one. Thanks very much. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 18:22, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
 
:When I cut out the gas pump I made sure the selection tool cut all the white out.  I merged the two images using the anti-alias option so the edges of the pump did not look too sharp. Third, I brightened up the pump to make it a little more striking. Glad you like the changes. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 20:09, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
 
== Intersection of cat adoption and tall tale? ==
 
Tall tail?
 
(I am not making this up: Mr. Clark rejected tuna, wet disgusting cat food, and his expensive hypoallergenic dry cat food. He insisted on going upstairs into the general cat area, and into the bin of regular dry cat food -- in which he then went to sleep.) [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 19:10, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
 
== [[2012]] ==
I'm kind of looking for a green light before working on "2012" -- not that I'm that interested in it, but wondering what the policy is and whether others here will support it. It's a hot article on WP even though it's kind of a stupid subject (futurism stuff) as well as a movie. Wondering if there's some kind of "approvals in advance" place to get permission for dubious articles.--[[User:Thomas Wright Sulcer|Thomas Wright Sulcer]] 17:54, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
 
:I really don't know much about it.  But it would be no worse than an article about [[UFO]]'s or [[astrology]]. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 18:28, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
 
::OK, thanks, so you're saying if I write it, that you don't think I'll have problems with it. Thanx, Chris.--[[User:Thomas Wright Sulcer|Thomas Wright Sulcer]] 18:41, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
 
:::I can't think of a reason why there would be a problem. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 18:44, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
 
== Asking for your comments ==
 
Chris, would you look at the "Nitrogen cycle" section of the [[Air]] article ... and make any revisions you think are needed? Thanks, [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 19:30, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
 
== Can you improve [[:Image:Venturi Tube.png]] ? ==
 
Chris, the only drawing program I have is Microsoft's Paint program that is included with Windows XP. As you can see in [[:Image:Venturi Tube.png]], the lines that are not horizontal or vertical (that is, the angled lines) are quite "jagged". Does your program create angled lines that are not jagged? If so, could you replace the jagged lines in [[:Image:Venturi Tube.png]] with lines that are not jagged? It would greatly improve that image. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 05:54, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
 
:Milt, there are multiple free graphics packages out there that far exceed the capabilities of MS Pain(t) &mdash; to the point of being hypercomplex. Two that probably merit a look for diagrams like these are [http://www.openoffice.org/product/draw.html Open Office Draw] and [http://www.gimp.org/downloads/ Gimp]. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 08:59, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
 
::Thanks, Daniel. One of these days I will take the time to download one of those and learn how to use it. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 17:31, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
 
::Chris, thanks for fixing the Venturi image for me. It looks much better now. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 17:31, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
 
== Your talk at the New Communication Channels for Biology Workshop 2008 ==
 
Hi Chris,
can you send me your slides from [http://ccbw.calit2.net/video.html that workshop], or put them online? They may be useful for drafting the [[User:Daniel Mietchen/Sandbox/Open Knowledge Conference 2010/|OKCon 2010 paper]]. Thanks! --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 18:38, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
 
:Wow, i'd forgotten about that.  <s>I'll root them out.</s> Just looked on this computer and no sign, it must still be on my semi-dead (screen is broken) lap top.  I'll boot it up tomorrow and see if i can find anthing on its hard drive.  [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 03:17, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
 
::Thanks! I put the slides up [http://docs.google.com/present/embed?id=ddwhqd6k_296csrfjmvg here] for everyone to work on. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 09:47, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 
== CC vs. PD ==
 
How, for Pete's sake (as some would say), can I upload (and correctly credit) an image directly [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Template:Fractal-Trace-Gimp-Panton-Principles-Settings.png/credit&curid=100151124&diff=100652678&oldid=100652669 as PD]? The only option I saw to do so always leads to it being labeled as CC0-1.0, and at least in this set of three images (which shall serve to illustrate the [[Panton Principles]]), I do not want to have any name attached to it, because that is the message of these Principles. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 14:04, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 
:I just looked at the upload file link and it seems to be click on the "I am not the copyright holder" tab.  Then select the "in the public domain" option.  Then for the license select "creator has released into the public domain". Are you not seeing those options when you do the upload? [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 14:15, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 
::I do, though this time I went there via "I am the copyright holder" and "Release into the Public Domain", which gave the CC0 attribution. I think the problem with the upload wizard is that Caesar left when he was mostly but not entirely done with it. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 14:19, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 
::[EC] OK, I just followed the "I am the copyright holder fork" and now I see how you got to "Creative Commons CC0 1.0 Universal License".  I guess that is equivalent to public domain? But this is beyond my ken. If Caesar was not done with it, possibly the PD license option should be at that point too? [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 14:20, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 
:::The two are practically equivalent in the US but CC0 is more universal, since most jurisdictions do not have PD, but all have [[copyright law]]. Anyway, CC0 means that also no BY is needed. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 14:41, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 
::::I've just spent 10 frustrating minutes at [[:Image:Drink to Yesterday.jpg]] trying to '''"Upload a new version of this file"'''.  Can't be done.  All you can do is '''start all over again''' and upload another file under another name AND fill out all the @#$%^&* information that you had to do with the first one!  And unless you're maybe a combination of Bill Gates and Steve Jobs, you can't '''"Edit this file using an exterior application"''' either.  Geez! [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 00:37, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 
:::::That doesn't sound right.  Are you using the link titled "'''Upload a new version of this file'''"  just above the [[:Image:Drink_to_Yesterday.jpg#filelinks|Links]] section title. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 00:43, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 
::::::Yes. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 00:55, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 
:::::::PS -- I use Chrome as my browser.  Could that be affecting things in some mysterious way? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 01:03, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 
::::::::If you choose the new file to upload and then save, leave everything else blank, then it will be fine.  You'll see. It will ask you if you want to ignore all warnings.  Select yes and then you're done. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 00:59, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 
::::::::It keeps telling me that I need License info, and the license info isn't what I want.  And it won't work unless I choose a license.  No way. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 01:03, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 
::::::::::I just tried it, and it works fine with jpg, but when I use .png, I get "The file is corrupt or has an incorrect extension. Please check the file and upload again." --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 01:08, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 
:::::::::::It still doesn't work.  I have, on my computer, a *smaller* version of the present image.  It has the same name and is a .jpg.  A few minutes ago I had a slightly different name on it, but it was the same .jpg file. It doesn't matter *what* it's called.  No matter *what* I do, I am told that I MUST choose a license.  If I don't choose a license, it will NOT upload the file. Period. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 01:24, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 
::::::::::::I just tried and it worked fine. All I did was choose the new file on my desktop.  Then save. Then chose ignore all warnings.  That's it.  All the files data and licenses are intact. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 02:21, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 
:::::::::::::A box doesn't pop up and tell you that you have to choose a license? Do you have a Papal dispensation, or what? [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 03:48, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 
::::::::::::::No, I've never seen that and I've updated images at CZ quite a few times. [[User:Chris Day|Chris
Day]] 04:15, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 
:::::::::::::::Off to bed, but tomorrow I'll do a screen capture of the box I get and I'll email it to you. Don't know what else to do. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 04:43, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 
== Space Invaders ==
 
Sorry, I thought I'd got the hang of new pages but apparently not. I've seen the changes you made and will follow the example when making futher pages. --[[User:Chris Key|Chris Key]] 00:29, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
 
== Lemma formatting ==
 
What do you think of displaying the definition above the instructions in lemma articles? I just [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Template:Lemma&curid=100091956&diff=100653055&oldid=100649850 did the switch] (also [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Template:Def_only&curid=100147979&diff=100653048&oldid=100648088 this one]). --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 11:32, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
:Somehow, the definition pages do not display properly now, and I guess {{tl|subpages}} would have to be remodeled to accomodate the change I made. Do you think that's worth it? --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 19:50, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
::I reverted both changes and moved the testing to the test wiki: [http://test.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Template:Lemma&curid=100091956&diff=100642057&oldid=100640610 Lemma], [http://test.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Template:Def_only&curid=100147979&diff=100642056&oldid=100641506 Def only]. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 01:31, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
:::Could not pinpoint exactly what the problem was, so I went back to normal for the time being. On a related note, what do you think of merging {{tl|Def only}} and {{tl|Lemma}}? --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 23:07, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
 
::::I would not be against that.  I'll have a look and see how it can be streamlined, or do you already have a plan? [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 03:34, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 
:::::I do, but can't put it in words easily (other than moving the conditionals from {{tl|Def only}} to {{tl|Lemma}}). Will thus give it a go on the test wiki, and let you know how things go. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 07:32, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
 
::::::I merged them and added some categories, which makes {{tl|Def only}}, [[:Category:Definition Only]] and [[:Category:Related Articles Only]] redundant. Please check and adapt as you see fit. Thanks! --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 11:46, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
 
Things work fine on the test wiki, but the display problem that started this thread
interfered when I did bring the changes over to the live wiki (where  {{tl|subpages}}
has not been updated yet.
So please transfer [http://test.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Template:Subpages&curid=100021004&diff=100642170&oldid=100642169 this edit]
to {{tl|subpages}}
(possibly with [http://test.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Template:Subpages&curid=100021004&diff=100642171&oldid=100642170 this typo correction])
and then [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Template:Def_only&curid=100147979&diff=100664676&oldid=100664645 revert this edit].
Test clusters:
[[Special:PrefixIndex/Glia/|Glia]], [[Special:PrefixIndex/Open_Knowledge_Foundation/|Open Knowledge Foundation]].
Thanks! --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 12:49, 26 April 2010 (UTC)
:Daniel, i made the change but is the definition page the way you intended? [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 17:56, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
::Fixed and streamlined. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 22:22, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
:::Nice work Daniel, that's a big improvement. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 23:11, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
 
== The section on "Nitrogen cycle" in the [[Air]] article ==
 
Chris, about two weeks ago I asked you to look at the section on "Nitrogen cycle" in the [[Air]] article and revise it in any way you felt was needed. I know you've been busy, but I would still appreciate your review as a biology editor of that that section. Thanks in advance. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 16:56, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 
:Hi Milton I looked at the [[Nitrogen cycle]] article and proposed a revamping here in a sandbox: [[User talk:Thomas Wright Sulcer/sandbox2]] I expanded it but I'm not a scientist or technically-minded like you or Chris so I'm deferring to your judgment. I'm finding my paint program doesn't work well, so I hand-drew a diagram, but still am unhappy with it. I'm wondering if there's a good paint program that is simple, powerful, works with Ubuntu Linux so I can do better quality stuff here.--[[User:Thomas Wright Sulcer|Thomas Wright Sulcer]] 02:25, 27 March 201UTC)
 
::Thomas, my request of Chris was simply to take a look at the small section of the [[Air]] article that briefly describes the nitrogen cycle ... briefly on purpose.
 
::What you have written in your sandbox2 is a an expansion of the stub article on the [[Nitrogen cycle]] ... which I very much agree needs to be expanded, but which is out of my field of expertise. So I don't believe that I am really qualified to comment on your expansion of that stub article. I would suggest that, in addition to Chris Day who is a biology editor, you contact [[User:Anthony.Sebastian|Anthony Sebastian]] who is also a Biology editor and quite active. I would also point out that a very good drawing of the cycle is available in Wikimedia Commons [http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nitrogen_Cycle.png] where it is designated as being in the public domain. Other good drawings can probably be found with a bit of Googling. Regards, 03:27, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 
:::Does Anthony Sebastian have the "Nitrogen cycle" article on his watchlist? If so he'll see a note I placed there. I did this article first so that I would be in a position to help you with the "Nitrogen cycle" section of the "Air" article. But I'm not an expert by any stretch either. Good idea to get the picture on Wikimedia Commons -- my drawing didn't come out as well as I had hoped, but I still have ''illusions'' of being an excellent CZ sketch artist!--[[User:Thomas Wright Sulcer|Thomas Wright Sulcer]] 14:27, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
 
== False start move ==
 
Hi Chris,
I think [[:Category:False Start Move]] is overpopulated, and at least partly with what should rather be in [[:Category:Lemma Article]], e.g. pages like [[Citizen science/External Links]]. As far as I can tell, the culprit is the if nesting in {{tl|Subpages}}, so I can't fix it. Please check. Thanks! --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 23:24, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
:Daniel, is this still a problem? There did not seem that many there or is that because you have processed them?  From what i could see they were mostly left over subpages or lemma like pages without a definition. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 18:06, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
 
::I think I see what you mean, now that i have looked more closely at the example of [[Citizen science/External Links]]. At present the only lemma subpages supported are /Related Articles and /Definition. Are you suggesting that we should allow /External Links and /Bibliographies too? [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 18:11, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
 
:::Yes, and Video. In principle, I would like to have all subpages enabled for Lemmas. This allows to collect materials in the right place even though the article has not been written yet. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 18:34, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
 
::::I'll look at the coding and see if it is an easy fix or not. If so I'll do it as soon as possible. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 18:39, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
 
:::::If you would unlock it over on the test wiki, I could join the coding. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 19:49, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
 
::::::I have [http://test.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Template:Subpages&curid=100021004&diff=100642130&oldid=100642129 changed] and tested it on the test wiki. Please transfer it here. Thanks! --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 20:20, 21 April 2010 (UTC)


== I aim to restrict my replies to this talk page.... ==
:::::::Thanks! My edit also contained a typo correction. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 08:29, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
My hope is to preserve the context of each discussion rather than having them fragmented on mutliple talk pages. So please check back here for replies to messages you leave, thanks. Please sign comments with four tildes <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> This makes it a lot easier to follow the ebb and flow of a discussion with multiple users. Indents are also useful to help track the sequence of replies and can be achieved using colons such as ''':''' or '''::'''. [[User:Chris day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris day|(Talk)]] 23:32, 13 November 2006 (CST)
::For the benefit of newcomers, I mention that this can easily done by putting the page on one's watchlist, or setting the preferences to do so automatically.[[User:DavidGoodman|DavidGoodman]]
==Natural sciences==
{{Workgroup|group= Biology}}


==Naming policy white paper==
== Nomenclature for botany articles ==
Hi Chris, Earlier, when I was having technical problems editing CZ pages, I left you a private message on the forum. Just wondering if you had seen it. --[[User:Jaap Winius|Jaap Winius]] 15:33, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
:Got this Jaap, will reply soon. [[User:Chris day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris day|(Talk)]] 13:57, 3 April 2007 (CDT)


== Macromolecular Chemistry ==
Plant hormone or plant hormones or plant growth hormones?


Chris, this article really needed a Chemistry editor that was not involved in writing for approval. At this point, we have a second Chemistry editor-who is also involved in writing. So approval is going to take a third. Let's all work together, maybe we can recruit more Chemistry editors for the workgroup. [[User:Nancy Sculerati|Nancy Sculerati]] 11:04, 3 April 2007 (CDT)
*Auxin or auxins?
*Cytokinin or cytokinins?  The animal article is [[cytokines]].
* Gibberellin or giberellins?


== Chemisty ==
*Tissue culture
**Plant tissue culture


Chris, after I approved, we later determined that both macromolecular chemistry and physical chemistry (and there is one more) needed two more chemistry editors to be approved (Nancy and Gareth didn't count), so we had to back track until others come along.  Steve actually did the reversion.  I'll see what happened to the talk pages and see what I can do to restore them.  --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 13:44, 3 April 2007 (CDT)
I'm beginning to think I need to become your student... --[[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 22:54, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
:OK, that makes sense, in that case we need to restore the talk page histories and delete the draft articles. It certainly confused me and I'm sure I'm not the only one. [[User:Chris day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris day|(Talk)]] 13:51, 3 April 2007 (CDT)
::Also, Nancy's message above now makes more sense. [[User:Chris day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris day|(Talk)]] 13:52, 3 April 2007 (CDT)
:::See me on Steve's page --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 14:12, 3 April 2007 (CDT)


== Looks good, huh:) ==
::I've been his student for years...[[User:Anthony.Sebastian|Anthony.Sebastian]] 03:09, 20 April 2010 (UTC)


I like it to [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/User_talk:D._Matt_Innis#Applied_arts :)]  Thanks to you!  --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 14:29, 3 April 2007 (CDT)
== Checklist22 ==


== Too lonely, I need HELP !!!! ==
Hi Chris, please comment on [http://reid.citizendium.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=47#c25 this], either there or here. Thanks! --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 19:13, 29 April 2010 (UTC)


Lonely, I need HELP !!! Economics is a vast topic, it is "too much sand for my little truck..."
:You just want to know about the test link?  That was a hyperlink to walk authors through a move cluster sequence. I did that by opular demand to try and make the process of moving a cluster more efficient and transparent.  It never really did serve the purpose as things got complicated if the article was moved before the metadata template. Since then, it got broken with a mediawiki update and i could not figure out a good work around. I had forgotten it was still available as an option. We should probably just remove and delete all the templates associated with it. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 19:25, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
[[User:João Prado Ribeiro Campos|J. R. Campos]] 08:30, 4 April 2007 (CDT)


:That's exactly what I was thinking!  Unfortunately, however, I am next to useless on the topic. Hopefully more people will migrate from wikipedia once they see there is a chance to do some real work here. Assuming there are good people in wikipedia? Certainly for the sciences there are some very good contributors. [[User:Chris day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris day|(Talk)]] 09:11, 4 April 2007 (CDT)
::Thanks, fixed. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 20:15, 29 April 2010 (UTC)


== Hey Chris ==


Anyway to make an Article for Deletion tag can show up on the Workgroup Box for the workgroup responsible for that article.  Maybe along with the checklisted articles (or something better).  That way, when someone places it in the category articles for deletion, the editors can take a look and see if it should be deleted.  What do you think?  --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 22:39, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
==Please join with me in urging Hayford not to resign==


:Hey Matt, which of these template categories [[:Category:Speedy_Deletion_Requests]] or [[:Category:Articles_for_deletion]] are you thinking of? Not sure if it is possible but will think about it. [[User:Chris day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris day|(Talk)]] 23:17, 5 April 2007 (CDT)
Chris, see my plea to Hayford not to resign as Constable (on his Talk page). Please join me! [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 20:04, 12 May 2010 (UTC)


::[[:Category:Articles_for deletion]].  You can doit, I no u can:)  --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 15:36, 6 April 2007 (CDT)
== Listing-defined references test ==


== Thanks ==
As of September 2009, the Cite.php extension was modified to support list-defined references. These can be implemented with the parameter to the {{tl|reflist}} template, or by using a pair of HTML tags (<code><nowiki><references></nowiki></code> and <code><nowiki></references></nowiki></code>) in place of the <code><nowiki><references/></nowiki></code> tag. These reduce clutter within articles, by putting all the citation details in the section at the end where the footnotes are displayed. As with other citation formats, these should not be added to articles that already have a stable referencing system, unless there is consensus to do so. When in doubt, use the referencing system added by the first major contributor to use a consistent style.


Thanks for letting me know. I'll keep my opinion of it to myself... --[[User:Peter J. King|Peter J. King]] <span style="background:black">&nbsp;[[User talk:Peter J. King|<font color="yellow"><b>Talk</b></font>]]&nbsp;</span> 11:57, 7 April 2007 (CDT)
The example below shows what list-defined references look like in the edit box:<!--i.e. construed to look similar when viewed on the saved page. If you're actually IN edit mode it'll look different with the tags such as <tt> and <nowiki> used to make the construction work-->
<blockquote style="color:#999; background:white; padding:1em; border:1px solid DarkSeaGreen;">
<tt>
The Sun is pretty big,<span style="color:black;">'''&lt;ref name=Miller2005p23/>'''</span><br />
but the Moon is not so big.<span style="color:black;">'''&lt;ref name=Brown2006/>'''</span><br />
The Sun is also quite hot.<span style="color:black;">'''&lt;ref name=Miller2005p34/>'''</span><br />
<span style="color:#666;">&#61;=Notes==</span><br />
<span style="color:black;">'''<nowiki>{{reflist|refs=</nowiki>'''<br />
'''<nowiki><ref name=Miller2005p23></nowiki>'''Miller, E: <nowiki>''The Sun''</nowiki>, page 23. Academic Press, 2005.'''<nowiki></ref></nowiki>'''<br />
'''<nowiki><ref name=Miller2005p34></nowiki>'''Miller, E: <nowiki>''The Sun''</nowiki>, page 34. Academic Press, 2005.'''<nowiki></ref></nowiki>'''<br />
'''<nowiki><ref name=Brown2006></nowiki>'''Brown, R: "Size of the Moon", <nowiki>''Scientific American''</nowiki>, 51(78):46'''<nowiki></ref></nowiki>'''<br />
'''<nowiki>}}</nowiki>'''</span>
</tt>
</blockquote>


:Thanks Peter! --[[User:Mike Johnson|Mike Johnson]] 14:01, 7 April 2007 (CDT)
Below is how this would look in the article, once you had previewed or saved your edited section:
<blockquote style="background:white; padding:1em; border:1px solid #999;"><!--Edit mode note: the example display code uses some raw html to avoid clashing with other/real references and notes on this page.-->
The Sun is pretty big,<sup id="nbLDR01" class="reference">[[#noteLDR01|[1]]]</sup> but the Moon is not so big.<sup id="nbLDR02" class="reference">[[#noteLDR02|[2]]]</sup> The Sun is also quite hot.<sup id="nbLDR03" class="reference">[[#noteLDR03|[3]]]</sup>
<br /><br />
<font size=3><b>Notes</b></font>
----
<ol class="references">
<li id="noteLDR01"
><b>[[#nbLDR01|^]]</b> Miller, E: ''The Sun'', page 23. Academic Press, 2005.</li>
<li id="noteLDR02"
><b>[[#nbLDR02|^]]</b> Brown, R: "Size of the Moon", ''Scientific American'', 51(78):46.</li>
<li id="noteLDR03"
><b>[[#nbLDR03|^]]</b> Miller, E: ''The Sun'', page 34. Academic Press, 2005.</li>
</ol>
</blockquote>


I will keep an eye on this person Chris, as soon as my maintenance is done I will check his application and see what the status is. [[User:Robert Tito|Robert Tito]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;<span style="background:black">&nbsp;<font color="white"><b>[[User talk:Robert Tito|Talk]]</b></font>&nbsp;</span> 19:36, 7 April 2007 (CDT)
Defined references must be used within the body; unused references will show an error message. However, non-list-defined references (i.e. ordinary footnote references fully enclosed with <nowiki><ref> and </ref></nowiki> tags) will display as normal along with any list-defined ones.
:Thanks for looking into it. [[User:Chris day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris day|(Talk)]] 19:43, 7 April 2007 (CDT) no prob at all, the account has not be made yet, but without applic I cant procedd and on this disk I run from I dont have the correct software running, within 4 hours the account is done - if all is in order that is. [[User:Robert Tito|Robert Tito]]&nbsp;|&nbsp;<span style="background:black">&nbsp;<font color="white"><b>[[User talk:Robert Tito|Talk]]</b></font>&nbsp;</span>


== read ==
----


the answer please and comment. Rob
The Sun is pretty big,<ref name=Miller2005p23/> but the Moon is not so big.<ref name=Brown2006/> The Sun is also quite hot.<ref name=Miller2005p34/>


== Finally an author. ==
{{reflist test|refs=
<ref name=Miller2005p23>Miller, E: ''The Sun'', page 23. Academic Press, 2005.</ref>
<ref name=Miller2005p34>Miller, E: ''The Sun'', page 34. Academic Press, 2005.</ref>
<ref name=Brown2006>'''Brown, R: "Size of the Moon", ''Scientific American'', 51(78):46</ref>}}


Regarding your comment on my talk page: Yeah, I know I may have seemed a bit impatient while waiting. Mostly it was a certain sense of insecurity. Some part of me figured, as I've mentioned before, that with my utter lack of credentials and notable works, I might not be "up to snuff" for Citizendium. Now that I'm in, well, I'm hoping to kick back and write a few articles in the next little while. I look forward to working with you in future, soon as I write a biography that's up to standard, anyway.
:Chris, I tried this because it is such a great improvement ... but I cannot get it to work. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 22:35, 23 May 2010 (UTC)


== Yes, I find it confusing ==
::I tried it in my WP sandbox and it works perfectly. But the identical edit box coding does not work in my CZ sandbox. Has that Cite.php extension revision been implemented for CZ? It would greatly improvement the readability of edit boxes and make editing revisions, rewrites, etc. very much easier. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 23:36, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
:::I agree with you with regard to why we want this here. I'm assuming this does not work here at CZ, I was testing it here. The text above might be confusing, it is a direct cut and paste from wikipedia. I'll ask Dan if he knows what to changes need to be made to the Cite.php exension here to make this workable.[[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 21:04, 24 May 2010 (UTC)


Re your comment at [[Template talk:checklist]]:  yes, I find it confusing how you've redirected your user page to your talk page.  I was under the impression that each user was required to put their biography on their user page;  maybe I'm wrong about that.  In any case, I tried a number of times to find your biography and didn't find it.  One thing that adds to the confusion is that your last name is sometimes spelled with a capital letter, sometimes lowercase.  So of course I assumed I'd typed the wrong one and tried the other one.  After a number of tries I gave up.  I didn't find your publications list.  I wasn't looking for a publications list;  I was looking for a user page and/or a biography.  I suppose your publications list serves as your biography.  If it were posted on your user page, that would be obvious.  If the link from your talk page were labelled "my biography" it would be obvious to users who noticed that link.  Your explanation that you find it easier to maintain one page rather than two doesn't hold water, since your publications list is on a separate page anyway:  why not make that your user page?  I think it's less confusing if everybody follows the same format.  Especially since you're an editor, readers will be wanting to see your biography (or user page or publications list) to see who is giving authority to various articles, so it's better to have that information easily available in a standard place, in my opinion. Also probably better not to direct readers to your talk page, which will contain all sorts of stuff that doesn't really need to be read by people who are just looking up information in the articles and not participating in writing them.  Anyway, that's my opinion.  --[[User:Catherine Woodgold|Catherine Woodgold]] 10:32, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
== Categories for images ==


:I'd have to say I agree.. the "norm" is a Bio page at User:, and the talk page is strictly for discussions I'd think. Wasn't this one of the things you agreed to when you joined, that you would create a bio? --[[User:Eric M Gearhart|Eric M Gearhart]] 11:50, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
What do you think of letting images inherit the categories of the articles they are used in? I think this should not be too complicated &mdash; the code for this is all in the {{tl|subpages}} system, and images are placed via {{tl|image}}. The only problem I see is that imagemaps are currently not compatible with the latter. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 20:38, 23 May 2010 (UTC)


::Hi Eric and Catherine, not sure if your still following this but user name and bio are now be in a more user friendly format. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 13:32, 11 April 2007 (CDT)
:How would the categories be placed on the image page?  What is the mechanism for "inheriting" the categories from the articles they are placed in?


:::The only thing I'd ae to say about that is that you might want to put something at the top of the list, to the effect of "These are books I co-wrote" or something like that. I found myself reading through the list to find "Day, CD" trying to figure out what this was a list of :) [[User:Eric M Gearhart|Eric M Gearhart]]
:As to the plan, it sounds like a good way to know what images are being used in each workgroup or subgroup. A problem I forsee in the future is that such categories are too broad.  A better way would be able to break them down further into groups of categories, i.e. pictures used in articles on "Biology AND Chemistry" or "Biology AND Chemistry AND Health Sciences" Would that be possible? [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 21:15, 24 May 2010 (UTC)


== Check it ==
::The more I think about it, the less sure I am about the mechanism, at least with the currently installed extensions. My initial thought was that we would need an {{tl|images}} template on each image, which could then place categories much like the subpages system does. The problem is that there is just one place where the relevant information is stored in the subpages system, and unless we introduce some metadata system for images (which would probably not be a good idea), there will always be several such places for images used on more than one page. SemanticMediaWiki, however, may come to the rescue, so by the time we really need the feature, we may actually have it. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 16:24, 25 May 2010 (UTC)


Chris, check your user page and talk page and make sure they work the way they aresupposed to.  The redirects from user to user talk may be confusing, so make sure that's the way you want them.  --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 12:52, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
== Re-approval of [[Gasoline]] ==
:Matt this looks good. So I still log in as Chris day? One thing I was hoping was to actually have a new User I.D. so that my edits will show up in the histories as Chris Day too. Or is that not possible?  I'd be fine just starting a new account too. Which ever is easier.  Thanks for the help. [[User:Chris day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris day|(Talk)]] 13:01, 8 April 2007 (CDT)


Okay, Chris, check you email for the password to your new user page and let me know if it works right. --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 17:23, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
Hi, Chris, I think that I have responded to the points raised by you and by Howard on [[Talk:Gasoline]]. Howard has asked for your help in how to do the re-approval nomination (see [[Talk:Gasoline]]). Would you please help him? Thanks, [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 20:45, 26 May 2010 (UTC)


After I'm sure you can get in under Chris Day, I'll block the Chris day account. Then we should be set. --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 17:49, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
== " Nitrogen cycle" section of [[Air]] ==


Sounds great.  Will I get an e-mail with intructions for creating passwords etc.?  I'm sorry for wasting your time on this Matt. [[User:Chris day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris day|(Talk)]] 19:36, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
Chris, I noted your very recent edits of [[Nitrogen cycle]]. I would much appreciate your looking at the "Nitrogen cycle" section of the [[Air]] article and correcting/revising/whatever you believe is needed. Thanks, [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 00:08, 29 May 2010 (UTC)


Hey, no problem Chris, after all you do for me!!!!  You can change your password under preferences at the top.  Did you get the email with the new password? --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 08:41, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
== Better use of subgroups? ==


:Excellent, I'm in. Can you hold off blocking the old account so I can transfer my watchlist etc. I'll let you know when I'm done. Thanks. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 09:36, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
As you may have noticed, I've been creating quite a few subgroups (e.g., the specialties of internal medicine, veterinary medicine), assorted computing topics, etc. In general, I conceived each subgroup as highly correlated with a mailing list, professional organization, or some other recruitment target.


You bet, just leave me a note on my talk.  Have Fun!!! --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 11:10, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
If they are to be a recruiting and work planning tool, would it be possible to display the article status in the list of articles for the group, rather like rpl? [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 06:42, 11 June 2010 (UTC)


Okay, I'll put a block on [[User:Chris day]] but will leave the redirects in place so all your previous edits on other talk pages won't show red and will redirect here.  One day, we can delete the pages when you feel it won't affect anything too much. Let me know if anything goes wrong when I block:)  --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 12:30, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
:It also might be useful to display the list of subgroups from a link on the left, just as we do for workgroups. Someone else probably has to do that.


Okay, I moved you archives and delted the original. I also blocked your username, but think it blocked your IP address, too, so I unblocked until I find out for sure.  If anything goes wrong and you cannot get in, email me at dminnis@gmail.com!  --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 12:53, 9 April 2007 (CDT)
:The Subgroups article seems to suggest there can be subgroups of subgroups, but doesn't explain the syntax.  Here would be an example:
:*CZ Internet applications subgroup
:**CZ World Wide Web subgroup
:**CZ Electronic mail subgroup
:**CZ Distributed computing subgroup


== self-organization in life ==
--[[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 15:12, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
   
: As I have already said elsewhere: The idea of workgroups, subgroups, and potential subsubgroups should not be used as a substitute for a good subject classification (we will need one!). Unless there are at least three (better more) authors interested a "group" makes no sense. --[[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 15:53, 14 June 2010 (UTC)


chris, david tribe and i tried to straighten out the first sections of [[Life]] this morning, there were edit conflicts and restorations and ensuing confusion, last night between me , Rob, and Anthony- all of us trying to work more or less at the same time. Anthony did major restoration last night, late, and then David, and finally me and David then me. David will (tonight) make sure that the chemists' corrections all got incorporated, and I think that things are reasonably readable and accurate now,  but in going through the article, I come to real trouble in self -organization -having to do with genomes and computers. It's not something I understand well enough to do a good job on,however, I do think you could. Currently I think it's wrong. Could you look at the talk page please? [[User:Nancy Sculerati|Nancy Sculerati]] 13:50, 8 April 2007 (CDT)
::I'm not suggesting these as a substitute for classification. I'm suggesting these as preparing for an agreed-to recruiting campaign just to get such members, for which we clearly don't have enough current Citizens. For example, [[CZ: Internet operations]] is the specific goal of the North American Network Operators Group, which has a mailing list to which I subscribe and at which I've been active.  If I send a mail to the list soliciting membership, including a pointer to the subgroup gives potential Citizens an idea what exists as resources, what can be improved, or, perhaps under the homepage for the group, what is needed. In like manner, I'm on a Trauma and Critical Care mailing list, which covers two subgroups. Web people tend not to be interested in email and vice versa. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 16:00, 14 June 2010 (UTC)


== Call Button ==
:::I have to agree with Peter.  Don't we have to have three interested editors before we create a subgroup? [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 16:12, 14 June 2010 (UTC)


Hey Chris, is there any way to put a button on the workgroup box that would allow us to send the same email to all the editors?  Basically, if somebody wants to find an editor to approve an article, he could click the button and write all of them a note at the same time...  you know what I mean? --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 14:11, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
::::Actually, no -- anyone can create, although endorsement requires editors. I haven't always had an endorsing editor, although I myself have the Editor status for most except medical. Nevertheless, under "be bold", what is being broken? This is additional information and doesn't delete anything in place.


:Probably, but I don't have access to mediawiki code.  You need to ask the developers (plus I am in no way familiar with programming.  Everything I do is just muddling along).
::::Yes, if it might be ''also'' of value as an interim categorization system, how is it bad to help readers find things for which the current workgroups are at too coarse a level of granularity? Simply as an author, I find them useful to see what exists and what is needed. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 16:15, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
:With regard to your previous question track changes for deletion template. I'm not sure i understand what you want? It sounds like you want the page names to automatically appear in the workgroup template, in the same way they automatically appear in the category page.  Is this right?  If so I'm not sure I know a way around this?  It would be quite easy to establish a new 'workgroup articles deletion category' such that you could see which articles were being considered for deletion, but this would require you to click a link, as for the recent changes.  Keep coming with these ideas. We should create a todo list on the workgroups talk page. We may not have the technical skills available now but it may be easier in the future. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 14:21, 10 April 2007 (CDT)


::You are the programmer!:)  Yes, you haev the deletion thing right.  Basically to make everything go back and focus on the workgroup editors.  Maybe something like the speedydelete only it asks for the workgroup and then it will put it on the workgroup home page?(Somewhere - anywhere that we can get their attention)  That way, as an editor, all I have to do is monitor my workgroup and I will know if someone is trying to delete one of my articles (or if they need my input).  Then if we had a call button, that would be even more fun:) Where can we put these ideas? --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 15:03, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
==You've been Nominated!==
:::Would you liek a CZ cape to go with your bat phone? But more to the point, there is no way i can do that with my remedial efforts, sorry.  I'll set up a to do/idea list on the talk page. Maybe someone else will find interest/time to persue it. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 16:16, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
Someone has nominated you for a position in the new Citizendium.  They have noticed you're dedication to the project and like what they see.  To be listed on the ballot for the position, it is necessary that you accept the nomination on the [[Archive:Citizendium Ballot for the Management Council|Nomination page]. Just place accept next to your name along with the four tildes. The nomination period will close at midnight October 7 (UTC). Article 54 of the new charter details the requirements:
::::Hey, that's a start, thanks, Robin. --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 16:32, 10 April 2007 (CDT)


== biology workgroup recent changes for drafts/approved ==
===Article 54===


I edited Life/draft and didn't see it show up in the approve/draft recent change list for biology.  Any ideas? [[User:Thomas E Kelly|-Tom Kelly]] [[User talk:Thomas E Kelly|(Talk)]] 21:55, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
*In conjunction with the Declaration of the Editor-in-Chief regarding the effectivity of this Charter, there shall be a call for nominations for the following offices: Managament Council (five seats), Editorial Council (seven seats), Managing Editor (one), Ombudsman (one).  This shall be the effective date of the Charter.
*Any Citizen may nominate candidates for these positions. 
*Nominations shall be collected and collated by the Chief Constable.
*Nominations shall be accepted no more than fourteen days after the effective date of the charter; the ballot shall be available starting on the twentieth day after the effective date  of the charter; the election shall be completed no more than twenty-eight days after the effective date of the charter; all elected officials shall begin their term of office on the thirtieth day after the effective date of the charter. 
*Only candidates who accept their nomination shall be eligible to appear on the ballot. Nominated candidates can accept nominations for no more than two official functions.  Accepting a nomination serves as a declaration of commitment, in the case of being elected, to fulfill this function until the limit of the term.
*All positions shall be elected by a simple majority of the voting citizenry. In the case of a tie, an immediate run-off election shall be held.
*In the event that a candidate has been elected for two functions, the candidate shall declare which one he or she accepts within three days of announcement of the election results. In the event that such a declaration has not been made during this period, the candidate shall be considered elected for the position for which the nomination was accepted first. The same procedure applies to a reserve member that becomes elected by a seat being vacated this way.


:Almost certainly does not have the draft category appended to it. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 22:09, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
If you would like to make a statement to help voters, click the "Statement" link to the right of your name.


::Is there policy for draft categories and has this been considered in the "one-touch" proposed approval process? [[User:Thomas E Kelly|-Tom Kelly]] [[User talk:Thomas E Kelly|(Talk)]] 22:12, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
Thanks again for the commitment you're making to assure that Citizendium becomes the premier quality online source we all have envisioned.


:I don't get the question exactly--? --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 22:29, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
[[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 13:17, 3 October 2010 (UTC)


::One can track recent changes in all biology articles by using "related changes" on the category page [[:Category:Biology Workgroup]] articles, however, this only tracks the main page of any article. This is fine for all the unapproved articles but the approved articles rarely changes except after a new approval.  Consequently it becomes necessary to track changes to the draft article since that is where all the action occurs.  To do this we need the draft articles to have their own category ([[:Category:Biology_Workgroup_Draft]]).  Related changes on that page will allow a window onto the edits to the draft versions o approved article. Therefore, the approval process should include instructions for commenting out the categories on the draft page AND adding the <nowiki>[[:Category:{{{Group}}}_Workgroup_Draft]]</nowiki> category. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 23:05, 10 April 2007 (CDT)
==Re your Pinkwich5.js page==
   
Chris, on your Pinkwich5.js page [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/User:Chris_Day/pinkwich5.js], you show:


:::Chris, I added [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/CZ:Approval_Process#Sysops_make_it_official_with_the_.7B.7BApproved.7D.7D_template that] to the instructions for article approval. --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 14:33, 11 April 2007 (CDT)
// install [[User:Pilaf/Live_Preview]] page preview tool
document.write('<script type="text/javascript" src="'
+ 'http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Pilaf/livepreview.js'
+ '&action=raw&ctype=text/javascript&dontcountme=s"></script>');


::::Excellent Matt, thanks.  I have just added some info on the usage of the less often used ''Approval template'' fields of group2 and abc.
May I ask what functionality that code provides you, and how does one implement that functionality?
::::Do you have any opinion on keeping the approval edits seperate from the talk edits. If you look at [[Talk:Biology/Draft]] you will see that the approval notes are on a transcluded page.  I think this may be useful since all the approval edits are seperated from the talk page edits and readily reviewed using the history.  If they are mixed in with the talk page edits they will be harder to review if it becomes necessary at a later date. If you like this plan we should have a discussion and add it to the approval process. In fact, there is no reason why this cannot be a standard feature on all talk pages even before they become approved. I would welcome your input here. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 15:32, 11 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::Yes, definitely an improvement.  We need to do the same thing for [[Dog]] and maybe include the [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Talk:Dog#Approval_checklist conversation] concerning the mechanics.  This is a good idea.  How hard is it and can we write it up?  --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 19:13, 14 April 2007 (CDT)
::::::Also, is there a reason we aren't using that neat Article Checklist template on all articles? --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 19:17, 14 April 2007 (CDT)
:::::::One more thing:)  Did you know this [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/User:Chris_day/sandbox3 sanbox] is showing up [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Category:Biology_Nonstub_Articles here]? --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 21:52, 14 April 2007 (CDT)
Hi Matt, there is a problem with my version of the checklist.  It works on my computer and browser set up but not on Larry Sangers.  He is using I.E. and PC.  Unfortunately i have not been able to replicate the problem that Larry sees so it is very hard for me to debug. For the pertinent conversations see these talk sections. [[User_talk:Larry_Sanger/Archive_3#checklist]] and here [[User_talk:Larry_Sanger#checklist]].


:I'm using IE on a PC as well.  I'll check the linked discussion. --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 14:03, 15 April 2007 (CDT)
Thanks.   


::I removed the checklist templates from my two sandboxes (re: the sandboxes being in the category as discussed below).  Feel free to revert that edit so you can check if the problem is present for you too. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 14:10, 15 April 2007 (CDT)
BTW: I use WikEd, it works well in latest versions Firefox and Chrome, but not IE9 (beta) or Opera.  [[User:Anthony.Sebastian|Anthony.Sebastian]] 20:06, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
:::Okay, I have checked it on my laptop and PC with IE and 800x600 and 1280x800 with the same overlap on each.  The overlap that I see is about 2/3 the way down the outer box (not the article checklist box).  There is no overlap of the Article checklist box and archive box at all.  The contents box __TOC__overlaps this bottom third of the template box.  If you choose to hide the content box, the text from the talk page migrates up into the bottom third of the template box.  Could it be that the background picture is what is determining the size of the box and we can cut the bottom off.  Or if we take the border transparent?  I don't know if we can do that with these things:) --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 14:52, 15 April 2007 (CDT)
::::I tried a few things myself (just changed numbers in your template and the only thing that didn't show as overlap was making the border transparent and that was not as good looking.  But see what you think.  Maybe you know a few more tricks.  --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 19:07, 15 April 2007 (CDT)
With respect to the seperate page for approval discussion it is very simple to implement and I can write up a proceedure.  I have not implemented it globably since I have had very little feedback.  In fact, yours here is the first.  I was not sure if that was a positive or negative sign.


:Let me be the first to endorse it then, provided it is not too hard to put together.  It could even be put into a template format that we can plop on a page at the same time as the checklist can't it? --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 14:03, 15 April 2007 (CDT)
::Actually it is in a template form already.  See the biology and life talke pages that use {{[[Template:Approval history|Approval history]]}}. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 14:10, 15 April 2007 (CDT)
:::Of course it is!:) --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 14:52, 15 April 2007 (CDT)
I did know my sandbox was in the category.  Do you think it i a problem?  i can deactivate it except for hen i am actively trouble shooting. I'll switch it off right now. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 12:18, 15 April 2007 (CDT)


:Don't worry about, it is fine with me.  I figured you had a reason, that's why I didn't remark it out myself. --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 14:03, 15 April 2007 (CDT)
:Tony, I stole it all from someone's page, I forget who.  It was so I could get preview functionality.  But I don't know anything about how the code works. Sorry i can't be more helpful. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 23:41, 20 October 2010 (UTC)


== Recent Changes ==
== Vote! ==


Chris I think you put together the recent changes box in the workgroups. I just noticed that Life Draft changes don't appear there. What do you think?
Hi Chris!  Did YOU Vote???  See the orange Sitenotice header! [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 23:59, 20 October 2010 (UTC)


[[User:David Tribe|David Tribe]] 05:30, 12 April 2007 (CDT)
:The page I went to was a lot of nominations but I didn't notice a place to vote. I'll look again. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 02:09, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
:You need to look at the recent changes under the approved/draft section. Unfortunately it is impossible to get all recent changes in the same list using the related changes feature.  ideally we need to have workgroup watchlists.  The advantage of a watchlist is that talk pages will also appear on the list of changes, as well as us only having to monitor one list. In addition, only the most recent changes for any page will be seen rather than all recent changes. The advantage of only seeing the most recent change is the list does not get dominated by many minor changes to one particular article. Maybe you could chime in on this thread in the forums:  http://forum.citizendium.org/index.php/topic,591.0.html It seems to have been missed or ignored by the developers. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 10:01, 12 April 2007 (CDT)


== Recently uploaded image(s) ==
::That's scary! If you couldn't find it :(  You have to follow the links to the voting pages for each one.  [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 02:11, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
Hi Chris. Do me a favor and put some licensing data at the walk/crawl images. See [[Help:Images#Copyrights|Images Help&mdash;Copyrights]] for help. Thanks! &mdash; [[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]] 19:01, 14 April 2007 (CDT)
Chris. I am putting both in [[Infant growth and development]]. This boy (full term infant?) was how old on the day of the pictures? thanks, [[User:Nancy Sculerati|Nancy Sculerati]] 19:15, 14 April 2007 (CDT)


== Version 1.1 of life ==
:::I got it now. I just didn't read it properly.  I was expecting to vote on the charter but that was all long gone. I'll vote now. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 02:13, 21 October 2010 (UTC)


I have put [[Life/Draft]] V 1.1 up for approval.
::::Oh, didn't think of that!  I changed the banner - see how bad we need YOU! [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 02:17, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
Your views on that are welcome, cheers D [[User:David Tribe|David Tribe]] 19:31, 15 April 2007 (CDT)


== Progress is good ==
:::::Well it would help if I had read the prolog instead of jumping right to the tables. Anyway I voted. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 02:30, 21 October 2010 (UTC)


Thats good Chris: with positive support such as you just gave well be able to roll forward. Thanks
::::::There you go! Democracy in action! [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 02:34, 21 October 2010 (UTC)


d
:::::::Perfect proof, I would say, that Democracy Is For The Birds! (hehe) [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 03:08, 21 October 2010 (UTC)


== Template help ==
== Approval for [[Thylakoid]] ==


Chris, thanks ''a lot'' for your help with this. :-) ----[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]] 00:38, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
Chris, I prepared what Gareth calls a "short and sweet" article, [[Thylakoid]].  Will you look it over to see if you could add your name to the Approval banner? Otherwise let me know what you think it might need.  Thanks.  [[User:Anthony.Sebastian|Anthony.Sebastian]] 15:22, 17 November 2010 (UTC)
:No problem.  Checkout the [[Template:Acronymlist]] (which should be a protected template!).  Hopefully you can see how it is easy to add any acronym to the list as well as customise the output for each one.  Hope this helps ease the way for you. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 00:41, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
::Actually, your {{[[template:acronym|acronym]]}} and {{[[template:soup|soup]]}} templates will need to be protected too.  The last thing you want is pranksters editing the official messages from the constables. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 00:46, 17 April 2007 (CDT)


:::Protected. Also, may I ask a question?  With {{Tl|wpcheckbox}} I tired to get it to include a heading, but when it is placed on a talk page and one edits the resulting section there...it edits the template! Any way to make it not do that? [[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]] 03:03, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
== New Biology editor ==


::::Nothing that i know of.  I have made a few suggestions at the template page. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 03:24, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
We have a new Biology editor named [[User:Dorian Q. Fuller|Dorian Q. Fuller]]. Perhaps you may wish to put a welcome message on his Talk page. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 16:47, 17 November 2010 (UTC)


== screenshots ==
== Re [[Thylakoid]] Approval ==


Chris, this is what I see: [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Image:ChrisDay1.JPG],[http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Image:ChrisDay2.JPG],[http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Image:ChrisDay3.jpg].
Chris, I responded to your comments on the Thylakoid Talk page, making a number of edits and adding images. If it looks okay to you, will you consider adding your name ToApprove. Thanks. &mdash;[[User:Anthony.Sebastian|Anthony.Sebastian]] 04:52, 28 November 2010 (UTC)


There is still the same overlap, but I like the approval template attached to it!!!  Keep going, you're getting closer;)  I can do this anytime, so just ask and I'll zip you over a screenshot.  --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 13:07, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
== New Biology author ==


:Interesting, not at all like i expected. I told Larry i didn't need screen shots but that was probably a mistake.  I'll keep going :) Thanks for the help.  [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 13:14, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
[[User:James Parker]] is a new Biology author, a student at Edinburgh interested in molecular genetics. [[User:Bruce M. Tindall|Bruce M. Tindall]] 17:32, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
==Approval and style stuff==
Yes, I do approve of you much appreciated tools. The shorter name is good and once people get used to the system they'll like it. Thanks. On another topic I'm thinking that we should have a uniform '''box''' color style at CZ. light-blue for CZ article summary statements. light yellow for quotes from other sources, as "just happened' in Life? Was that what you were thinking?. WHere do we take this next, the forums or just put it in the style guides? The regular readers would soon subconsiously learn it as a rule of meaning [[User:David Tribe|David Tribe]] 15:51, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
:i think the forums might be a good place to introduce it.  But I wouldn't wait for a solid decision, it is better to implement the 'rule' on a subset of pages.  I think people get the idea better when they can see the principle in action.  Descriptions on forums don't usually attract much attention. Also, as we implement this on a subset of articles we will be able to fine tune it more readily.  We can easily have a 'quote template' and 'summary template'.  This is a huge advantage to keep everything consistent and styles can be changed easily at a later date. I like your thinking. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 16:04, 17 April 2007 (CDT)


:::Before I had a chance to read the comment above (and I agree with it) it happened I drafted an entry so : [[Citizendium:Manual of Style]] . We could just leave it there without comment to mellow with time? They could be the starting point of templates too. [[User:David Tribe|David Tribe]] 17:01, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
== ! ==


::::Agreed, a multipronged attack to derail the doubters :) [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 17:12, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
Hi, Chris, thanks for dropping in again, I knew you would. I have a question for you... [[User:Ro Thorpe|Ro Thorpe]] 19:25, 17 May 2013 (UTC)


I am no doubter, but a great admirer. Still could you try a lighter blue? [[User:Nancy Sculerati|Nancy Sculerati]] 17:47, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
== Nomination for the Management Council ==
CCFFFF


:You guys are awesome.  And I'd like to see what a lighter blue looks like, too. --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 18:08, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
You have been nominated for a seat on the [[CZ:Management Council|Management Council]] in the [[CZ:Election July-August 2013|July-August Special Election]]. The nominator was myself. To accept or decline this nomination, please visit the [[CZ:Election July-August 2013/Nominations#Management Council candidates and links to their Statements|Nominations]] page by midnight UTC on July 27th. You may write an election statement for each if you wish (linked from the Nominations page).


In the examples below i ran with the lightblue and modified tha saturation and brightness of the colour to give some other choices. Obviously other parameters can be changed too but see how you like these. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 00:59, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
The Management Council seat expires on either June 30th, 2014, or June 30th, 2015 (the successful candidate with fewest voting receiving the shorter term). In the event that [[CZ:Election July-August 2013/Referenda/1|Referendum 1]] is passed, all seats will expire on June 30th, 2014. Thanks! [[User:John Stephenson|John Stephenson]] 17:18, 22 July 2013 (UTC)


:This is a trick isn't it:)  Okay, I say the 95% bright and 20% saturated.  That is probably what we already have! --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 19:39, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
== Removing Talk:ArticleName/Draft ==
::No trick. We have the blue at the top left. Saturation drops off to the right and brightness increases going down. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 19:54, 18 April 2007 (CDT)
{| align="center"  border="1" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0" style="border:1px #4682b4; border-collapse:collapse"
|align=center rowspan=2|'''brightness'''
|align=center colspan=6|'''Saturation'''
|-
!25%!!20%!!15%!!10%!!5%!!25%
|-
|90% bright
|style="background:lightblue"|Lightblue <br>See [[Life]] for a '''complete''' ''explanation''
|style="background:#B8DAE5"|#B8DAE5 <br>See [[Life]] for a '''complete''' ''explanation''
|style="background:#C3DDE5"|#C3DDE5 <br>See [[Life]] for a '''complete''' ''explanation''
|style="background:#CFE0E5"|#CFE0E5 <br>See [[Life]] for a '''complete''' ''explanation''
|style="background:#DAE3E5"|#DAE3E5 <br>See [[Life]] for a '''complete''' ''explanation''
|style="background:#ADD8E6"|#ADD8E6 ''aka'' lightblue<br>See [[Life]] for a '''complete''' ''explanation''
|-
|95% bright
|style="background:#B6E3F2"|#B6E3F2 <br>See [[Life]] for a '''complete''' ''explanation''
|style="background:#C2E6F2"|#C2E6F2<br>See [[Life]] for a '''complete''' ''explanation''
|style="background:#CEE9F2"|#CEE9F2 <br>See [[Life]] for a '''complete''' ''explanation''
|style="background:#DAECF2"|#DAECF2 <br>See [[Life]] for a '''complete''' ''explanation''
|style="background:#E6EFF2"|#E6EFF2<br>See [[Life]] for a '''complete''' ''explanation''
|style="background:#B6E3F2"|#B6E3F2 <br>See [[Life]] for a '''complete''' ''explanation''
|-
|100% bright
|style="background:#BFEFFF"|BFEFFF <br>See [[Life]] for a '''complete''' ''explanation''
|style="background:#CCF2FF"|#CCF2FF <br>See [[Life]] for a '''complete''' ''explanation''
|style="background:#D9F5FF"|#D9F5FF <br>See [[Life]] for a '''complete''' ''explanation''
|style="background:#E5F9FF"|#E5F9FF <br>See [[Life]] for a '''complete''' ''explanation''
|style="background:#F2FCFF"|#F2FCFF <br>See [[Life]] for a '''complete''' ''explanation''
|style="background:#BFEFFF"|#BFEFFF<br>See [[Life]] for a '''complete''' ''explanation''
|}


== ToApprove and AddDays ==
Thanks for your note. The one thing I haven't been able to do is completely remove the /Draft Talk pages for articles with status '0' while retaining the information in the Talk page banner. The <nowiki>{{subpages}}</nowiki> template has been altered so that clicking 'Talk' in the banner goes to the main article's Talk: page, but for articles with citable versions (former approved articles), this still redirects to Talk:ArticleName/Draft and not just to Talk:ArticleName, because only the former displays the definition, unused subpages, etc. I tried to fix this by altering the '[[:Template:To Approve Inner|To Approve Inner]]' template by removing the references to 'Draft', but this results in all the information in the banner of the Talk page disappearing if the status is '0'. I tried various other edits and templates, but no joy. Can you suggest anything? Thanks. [[User:John Stephenson|John Stephenson]] 15:35, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
:No suggestion off the top of my head.  I'll have to re-familiarize myself with the code, but I'll take a look. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 18:58, 4 October 2013 (UTC)


I'm working to make as many parameters of the ToApprove template as simple as possible.  An editor suggested they'd be more willing to use it if it could be done more simply.  Currently I've managed to partially get the date parameter optional.  I'm having the following issues:
== You've been nominated as a candidate in the June 2014 election ==


1)  I'm worried that the date might move back three days every time someone edits the talk page. I can't get <nowiki>{{AddDays}}</nowiki> to subst: within the #if. Ideas?
You've been nominated as a candidate in the [[User:ElectionJune2014|June 2014 election]]. Please visit [[User:ElectionJune2014/Nominations|this page]] to accept or decline each position. No action will also be treated as declining. If you accept, you may choose to write an election statement for each position - see the election page for further details. Alternatively, contact me via my Talk page or privately via e-mail. Regards, [[User:John Stephenson|John Stephenson]] 18:43, 5 June 2014 (UTC)


<s>2)  We need to handle month/year wraparound in <nowiki>{{AddDays}}</nowiki>.  That's a long and painful process.  Do you have ideas to make it go faster than a pile of #if's?</s>
== You've been nominated as a candidate in the June 2016 election ==


Also, any ideas for dealing with getting the "url" parameter to have a default value? I'm going to work on that next.  Any ideas you have would be much appreciated.--[[User:ZachPruckowski|ZachPruckowski]] ([[User_talk:ZachPruckowski|Speak to me]]) 09:41, 19 April 2007 (CDT)
You've been nominated as a candidate for the  post of [[CZ:Managing Editor|Managing Editor]] in the [[User:ElectionJune2016|June 2016 election]]. Please visit [[User:ElectionJune2016/Nominations|this page]] to accept or decline. No action will also be treated as declining. If you accept, you may choose to write an election statement - see the election page for further details. Alternatively, contact me via my Talk page or privately via e-mail. Regards, [[User:John Stephenson|John Stephenson]] ([[User talk:John Stephenson|talk]]) 19:16, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
:Haha, forget about (2). Found an easy way once I stopped trying to do 4 things at once... -- [[User:ZachPruckowski|ZachPruckowski]] ([[User_talk:ZachPruckowski|Speak to me]]) 10:00, 19 April 2007 (CDT)
::Hi Zach, i think it is a good idea to get this process simplfied. I'll look at it latter once you've finished tinkering. Did you check out Nancy's talk page history?  Its a mess, completley corrupted with all edits being on the same day and time. I can't imagine what happened but we don't want that happing on our article pages too. Did you track down the problem there? [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 10:04, 19 April 2007 (CDT)
:::I've set Jason and Greg to looking at it.  It's a problem in the database that only they have access to, so only they can fix.  -- [[User:ZachPruckowski|ZachPruckowski]] ([[User_talk:ZachPruckowski|Speak to me]]) 10:46, 19 April 2007 (CDT)

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——————————————— Chris' Talk Page —————————————

I am an editor in the biology workgroup | 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, Current talk page (94,080)

Notes to self

The European Physical Society

{{Quote|A|B|C|D|E}} gives:

‘ A ’

—B, C

{{PAGESIZE:User talk:{{BASEPAGENAME}}}} gives 94,080
{{PAGESIZE:User talk:{{BASEPAGENAME}}|R}} gives 94080
{{#ifexpr: {{PAGESIZE:User talk:{{BASEPAGENAME}}|R}} > 3000 | large|lemma }} gives large
{{#ifexpr: {{PAGESIZE:User talk:{{BASEPAGENAME}}|R}} < 3000 | large|lemma }} gives lemma

See:

- /Notes to self
- /Previous discussions

movelink

{{{1}}}

  • How should the r template deal with links to catalogs? Could use a separate 4th level definition but which related articles page should it link too?
  • Apostrophe bug means that the tabs are not the correct color. Fix the code to account so the if statement compares the url code.
  • Manual placement of {{dabdef|Fossilization}} needs the basepagename added manually too. If follow Noel's description will need a field in the metadata for any article that is the target of the basename redirect. No other way to figure out the basename for the {{dambigbox}} template otherwise. Alternative is do have a much more manually (for example, {{dambigbox|the process in [[palaeontology]]|Fossilization}} ) template but probably better to have it placed automatically. Drawa figure to make this more comprehensible.
  • Need to write a summary document describing the uses of {{RD}}, {{R}}, {{Rpl}} and {{pl}}.
  • For {{R}} should probably remove the {{Dabdef}} template and just write what is required. Could then have a specific template for the disambiguation request for a definition page if it is needed (I suspect no one would use it and instead just make the disambiguation page). One exception might be Daniel in combination with the RD template at CZ:List of words with multiple uses
  • Subpages template misinterprets location on the talk approval talk page (not sure I can replicate this).
  • Think over subpages format. Possibly need subpages style as third layer template with intermediary ones to define the magicword variables? Initiated this, see {{Parameters1}} and {{Parameters2}} in conjunction with {{Subpages test}} and {{Subpage style test}}.
  • If no footer or header add specific category to note this fact, preferably no other categories too. See homeopathy/Trials example.
  • must think about the status of these sub and subsub defintion pages. Note also that they exist as definition onlys rather than recognising the existance of the basepagename.
  • Lemma articles mess up the related only category such that related articles can only exist if there is some metadata. Try and write around (is this true? not sure I can replicate this either).
  • Finish userplan simplification and more focus on workgroup participation.
  • Fix move cluster - partially done, still need to fix approval page bug (when article has no approval page or when there is already an approval page present)
  • {{Lemma}} idea, see {{Test lemma}} too. Need to utlilise the pagesize magic word so we get a lemma when there is no, or very little text in an article.
  • optional photo credit
  • Article task and notification list
  • Metadata edits always current so should tie speedydelete etc to that one page. This will get around the maintenance categories often being out of date.
  • Think more about /Catalog/Masterlists See User_talk:Aleta_Curry#Masterlist for examples. Fix the same page blank code, At present there is a capital letter requirement bug as well as need to get second string if used. Also catalog masterlists and transclusion in general. No need to maintain information at multiple sites. Is substitution bot an option?
  • Figure out utlity of transcluding refs with the r template redirects.
  • Make error boxes more concise and smaller.
  • Finish up the periodic table navigation, specifically whether element data shoul be in a switch page on on individual subpages

{{r|Nova (astronomy)#Supernova|Supernova}} gives:

  • Supernova [r]: Please do not use this term in your topic list, because there is no single article for it. Please substitute a more precise term. See Nova (astronomy)#Supernova (disambiguation) for a list of available, more precise, topics. Please add a new usage if needed.

{{r|Supernova}} gives:

  • Supernova [r]: An astronomical object exploding to a brightness similar to that of an entire galaxy. Caused by a catastrophic explosion of either a white dwarf system or an aged star about five times the size of the sun, which occurs when the star collapses; a neutron star or a black hole may be formed as a result, or the explosion results in no remaining compact object. [e]
Iteresting that the top version does not work as expected. Might need to fic the r template to asccomodate tis , if possible. 06:54, 11 February 2009 (UTC)


/Wanted

Need to figure out the disconnects between the rare earths periodic table of elementses and the template:periodic. Did uranium, but others need fixing too. See Uranium/Periodic table of elements

Category:False Start Move
Category:Incomplete Move
Category:DeleteMove

Too many pop-up alert messages when starting a new article

Chris, two things that have niggled me for quite some while:

  • Whenever I create a new article in my Sandbox and then use the "Start Article" link in the left-hand navigation panel:

As soon as I cut and paste the article from my sandbox into the new article (including the subpages template) and save it, three or so large popup alerts are displayed on the main article page (ahead of the article text) telling me why they have appeared and alerting me to do certain things (like filling out the Metadata template). They must be overwhelmingly confusing to a new user writing his first article. The various pop-ups are separated by a heck of a lot of white space ... so that one must scroll down quite far to even see the main article text that I just cut and pasted from my sandbox.

Can those pop-ups be made smaller, with less excessive white space between them? Or can they be combined into one pop-up and made less wordy?

  • After I've created the Definition subpage and the Talk subpage:

The Talk page has more pop-ups telling me to create the Related Articles, Bibliography and External Links subpages. Again, one must scroll down to below those pop-ups before adding a post or reading any existing posts.

Once the Main Article, Metadata template and Talk page have been created, why not autiomatically create the Definition, the Related Articles, the Bibliography and the External Links pages complete with the subpages template included in each of them? Then, instead of all those pop-ups on the Talk page, all that would be required is one sentence stating that the Definition, the Related Articles, the Bibliography and External Links subpage need to be populated as soon as possible.

I think the above suggestions would greatly simplify the task of starting a new article. What do you think? Milton Beychok 07:00, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

The messages (including the whitespace) for starting an article could easily be changed in Template:Orphan subpage.
Concerning the talk page messages I have already filed a wish in CZ:Wishlist "Obtrusive requests to edit subpages". Again, they could easily be made smaller without having to create them at once. (I do not think that it is useful to create empty pages.)
However, both messages are as they are on purpose. Thus the pro-and-contra should be discussed, at least briefly.
(I agree with you, Milton) --Peter Schmitt 11:13, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
Glad someone else said it. I thought it was just my ignorance, you know, like it wouldn't bother people born into the Internet era.
Not to insult the original crafters, because we've all been working in the dark on this and I still think that clusters are a brilliant idea, we just need to tweak every once in a while.
While we're at it, could we PLEASE remove Albert from the metadata fill in form? I keep re-creating page Albert Einstein and getting a 'you're messing this up' error message, which confuses me no end.
And let's remove CanE and AusE as options in the language variants. No one writes in Canadian English or Australian English, we might as well have Indian English or Trinidadian English. We only need American English and British (or Commonwealth, if you'd rather) English.
Aleta Curry 22:11, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
I have removed "Albert Einstein" from the field in the blank template. (I hope that nobody minds.) On this occasion I found a Metadata template wrongly attributed to Einstein. (There may be more. And there are quite a lot of Metadata requiring "abc=Einstein, Albert" that will need to be fixed.) --Peter Schmitt 01:31, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
In retrospect, it should have been Werner Heisenberg. --Howard C. Berkowitz 03:23, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
You're just so certain of that, aren't you. Russell D. Jones 14:14, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
I do not think these alerts should go completely but we could hide most of them behind ONE generic message per page saying "Hey, something is missing or wrong. For details, click [show].". An example for such hidden stuff is at Category:Bot-created Related Articles subpages#Index. --Daniel Mietchen 15:09, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
I happen to like the alerts. As rarely as I create and/or move pages, I don't remember the procedures and all that has to happen; and I'm not willing to go look up those procedures every time. But having the alerts reminds me of what I need to do to get the article "off the ground." It's a checklist, but not in a checklist format. I was unaware of the Einstein Bug. I don't know that I'd like the "something's missing" format either. It smacks of "we know something you don't, he, he." If the templating can tell me what needs to be done to get the cluster to an operating standard, then it should. Russell D. Jones 16:16, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
I think you have to place yourself in the shoes of a newbie, Russell -- all of these alerts, and *long* blank spaces down through which one has to scroll, are *baffling*. "Hey, they asked me to create an article, I did, and NOW what?! WTF is goin' on here? Where's my article?! What am I supposed to do with THIS?!" Etc. etc. Even to me, after starting maybe 150 articles, I find it annoying. And THEN there's the stoopid Talk page, with the big blank space in the middle with the mysterious boxes on the right telling us to start a Related Articles page and a Bibliography, and god knows what else! It looks terrible! Fortunately I've found an answer to this: I click on each one of these demands, go to the newly opened page, type in an "x", save it, and do the same for the next one. Which at least cleans up the Talk page. Let's ask ourselves: for *whom* are we creating these minotaurian complexes? Howard and his Lemma articles? Heisenberg and Einstein and Schrodinger and his Kat to do Thought Experiments with? or for Billy Bob Thudpucker in Las Cruces, New Mexico, who just wants to write a brief article about the third-string banjo picker of the Rolling Stones? And while we're asking questions, I wonder how many of the dozens of new Authors who arrive here and then *never* contribute anything have actually *started* to write something, and then got scared away by all the inscrutable baloney they're then *apparently* required to do? So they curse, or shrug, and go away, never to return.... Hayford Peirce 16:30, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
I would consider pages started empty or with an "x" as their single content as close to vandalism. The blank spaces can be removed easily, and it should also be possible to place the talk page messages more effectively. --Daniel Mietchen 16:35, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
If the blank spaces and messages can be removed or made less intrusive, then why aren't they? Who put this stuff in there in the first place? And putting an X in there isn't remotely *close* to being vandalism -- it's exactly the same thing as going into an edited page and putting in a Null so that the damn server or whatever decides to notice that a change has been made to the Metadata page, such as when we change the ABC and then it doesn't show up on the Workgroup page until the Null has been put in. Hayford Peirce 16:50, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

(undent)Can a variable be set in a user profile, which is then available to templates? The default might be "newbie". Russell would want a "verbose" mode. I would want to suppress the "suggestions"--in user design speak, "terse" or "expert" mode.

In some respects, the idea of the lemma came about as a means of entering minimum useful content without going through full cluster setup, some of which will never be relevant.

Daniel, separating the issue of removing spaces, there is no real reason to demand External Links or Bibliography. Many articles will never have them, so they can go to the list of optional pages such as Catalogs and Debate Guide. Related Articles as a suggestion, yes. The suggestion of having other articles link to this article is useful only to people that understand the overall structure, who then should not need the reminder. Now, a link to a tutorial on knowledge navigation is another matter.

Hayford, your point is well taken about scaring away newbies. The newbie mode might even suppress anything beyond the minimum and post the article to a page for more experienced people to clean up. Remember the art historian? How much work would we have saved if she had just written the article and let us do the other pages? This is one of the reasons I hesitate to make instant Editors.

Eduzendium also shows that it's rather overwhelming; Daniel's macros/templates helped a lot. If I may try an analogy, we are "cataloging". When I went to work for the Library of Congress, I was amazed to discover how much skill and knowledge is needed to create a correct catalog card. There is an enormous difference between even the scholarly users of the Library, and the professional catalogers. We are simpler at present, but does the newbie even notice the "workgroup" tab on the left? At LC, the catalogers needed to go far beyond that, but both are still controlled vocabularies. I still am confused when something is "Media" vs. "Journalism". --Howard C. Berkowitz 16:46, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

I happen to think the templating here is exceptionally sophisticated and I appreciate that it can sculpt the CZ experience. I agree with the above that some of the mechanics are skewed (e.g., having to create a null edit in order for the server to update its status), but the "white space" experience, I think, is not intended for you to scroll through to get to the article; it is intended for you to fix the problem that is identified. But for people who create a lot of pages, I can see that it might be tedious to go through these hoops again and again when all you do is a null edit. Also, I see the problem of EZ. I take about 200 students a semester through the learning process of editing on the MediaWiki software and I can tell you that for a lot of them, even learning where to click to actually open the edit window can be a challenging undertaking. Complicating the scene with sophisticated templating raises the intimidation (or fear factor) of the site.
So I see three levels of users here.
  1. An author new to wikis who doesn't want to or will be overwhelmed with cluster set up. (maybe in the article creation process the article could automatically be tagged (category) with a request to set up cluster; experienced hands could take care of the list.)
  2. An experienced author who likes the process checklist to set up a cluster.
  3. An experienced cluster setter-upper who knows what to do and can't be bothered with the alerts.
Also I see issues of what exactly is needed for a bare-bones cluster set up: Metadata, certainly; definitions? maybe. Bibliography? probably not. talk page? shouldn't need a null edit. Russell D. Jones 17:27, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
I took out some of the talk page alerts — feedback welcome. Will take a look at the page creation stuff later. --Daniel Mietchen 17:56, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
Since this has evolved to a discussion of the merits and dismerits:
I think that the information seen from the subpages template is enough: It shows what subpages exist. Those who know about them and are willing to work on them can easily start there -- if they do not want then they will ignore the templates as well. (I do ...: many pages do not need external links, and many will not get a bibliography, and why create either when one has no good idea what to enter? The same is true for definitions - better no definition than a bad or incorrect one.)
Moreover, CZ explicitly encourages to start articles the "easy way" (see CZ:Start Article) -- without subpages.
-Peter Schmitt 23:00, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
I now also hid the alert messages for missing metadata. The following pages are some of those that do not yet have the {{subpages}} template, so you can use them to fiddle around with the new mechanism and to provide further feedback:
Nucleoside [r]: A purine or pyrimidine base attached to a ribose (used in RNA) or deoxyribose (used in DNA). [e]
Nucleotide [r]: A repeating unit in nucleic acid polymers consisting of a purine or pyrimidine base, a pentose sugar, and a phosphate group. [e]
Lipoprotein [r]: A molecular mixture of long chains of fatty and amino acids. [e]
Critical pathway [r]: schedules of medical and nursing procedures, including diagnostic tests, medications, and consultations designed to effect an efficient, coordinated program of treatment [e]
Third molar [r]: Molars located at the rear of the mandible, commonly referred to as Wisdom teeth, that usually appear between the ages of 17 and 25 in humans. [e]
Transcendentalism [r]: Philosophical, religious, literary, cultural, and social movement associated in particular with early 19th century New England intellectuals such as Ralph Waldo Emerson, Henry David Thoreau, and others. [e]
Hardy–Weinberg principle [r]: Add brief definition or description
Sleep initiation and maintenance disorders [r]: A range of disorders that deal with the inability to fall asleep or stay, appropriately, asleep [e]
Hypertensive urgency [r]: Add brief definition or description
Aldosterone antagonist [r]: Compounds that inhibit or antagonize the biosynthesis or actions of aldosterone, which is part of the renin-angiotensin system. [e]
Team-based learning [r]: Pedagogical techniques in which the learners work in small teams rather than as individuals [e]
Agile software development [r]: Software development methodology based on "close collaboration between the programmer team and business experts; face-to-face communication" and "frequent delivery of new deployable business value". [e]
Alpha adrenergic blocker [r]: Add brief definition or description
British Doctors Aspirin Trial [r]: Randomized controlled trial started about 1980 that was designed to test chemoprevention with aspirin for the primary prevention of vascular disease. [e]
Health Professionals Follow-up Study [r]: Add brief definition or description
Transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation [r]: Add brief definition or description
Autoimmune polyendocrinopathy [r]: Autoimmune disease affecting multiple organs [e]
Bacteriuria [r]: The presence of bacteria in the urine which is normally bacteria-free. [e]
Janus kinase [r]: A family of intracellular tyrosine kinases that participate in the signaling cascade of cytokines by associating with specific cytokine receptors. [e]
Serum osmolality [r]: Osmolality of the serum component of blood [e]
Vena cava filter [r]: Add brief definition or description
Rifampin [r]: Add brief definition or description
Patient discharge [r]: Add brief definition or description
Nephrotic syndrome [r]: Add brief definition or description
Hyponatremia [r]: Add brief definition or description
American Heart Association [r]: Add brief definition or description
Craniocerebral trauma [r]: Add brief definition or description
Palpitation [r]: Add brief definition or description
Apolipoprotein [r]: Add brief definition or description
Respiratory failure [r]: Add brief definition or description
Antiphospholipid syndrome [r]: Add brief definition or description
Intravenous infusion [r]: Add brief definition or description
Cytochrome P-450 CYP2C19 [r]: Add brief definition or description
Chronic fatigue syndrome [r]: Add brief definition or description
Human Immunodeficiency Virus [r]: Add brief definition or description
Sick sinus syndrome [r]: Add brief definition or description
Microscopic polyangiitis [r]: Add brief definition or description
Queckenstedt's maneuver [r]: Add brief definition or description
Mechanical ventilator [r]: Add brief definition or description
Dysphagia [r]: Add brief definition or description
Natriuretic peptide [r]: Add brief definition or description
Ideal body weight [r]: Add brief definition or description
Diffusion magnetic resonance imaging [r]: Add brief definition or description
Reserpine [r]: Add brief definition or description
Thrombophilia [r]: Add brief definition or description
Spontaneous abortion [r]: Add brief definition or description
Protein S [r]: Add brief definition or description
Thrombophilia [r]: Add brief definition or description
Zygapophyseal joint [r]: Add brief definition or description
Opiate dependence [r]: Add brief definition or description
Vertebra [r]: Add brief definition or description
Tramadol [r]: Add brief definition or description
Pre-eclampsia [r]: Add brief definition or description
Urinary retention [r]: Add brief definition or description
Pheochromocytoma [r]: Add brief definition or description
Glycoprotein IIb-IIIa inhibitors [r]: Add brief definition or description
Veterinary medicine [r]: Add brief definition or description
Polymyalgia rheumatica [r]: Add brief definition or description
Principal components analysis [r]: Add brief definition or description
GTP-binding protein [r]: Add brief definition or description
Intracranial hemorrhage [r]: Add brief definition or description
Adderall [r]: Add brief definition or description
Habitual abortion [r]: Add brief definition or description
Diagnostic error [r]: Add brief definition or description
--Daniel Mietchen 13:55, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Daniel i think your solution of hiding things looks great. Milt does this satisfy you? I admit the templates are a pain it is important to have some kind of visual reminder that there is an incompatibility between the metadata and the article. Hopefully they are more subtle now. Chris Day 23:09, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

That's great, Daniel! Many thanks for getting rid of all of the baloney! I just created John Dickson Carr to test your changes and everything is terrific except ONE thing: I foresee BIG problems ahead if you leave things exactly as they now are. Once one has created the article and saved it, on top of the article one sees something like needs metadate and show. If one clicks on the metadata link, one is directed to the page explaining metadata. I will bet you that *some* people will try to put their metadata into the template shown on that page! My suggestion: change the wording to what metadata means and go here to add metadata for this particular article. Thanks! Hayford Peirce 23:47, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
Chris, I'll comment after I next create a new article ... which I hope will be a few days from now. Thanks, Milton Beychok 08:49, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
Ad Hayford, I changed the phrasing to avoid that kind of confusion.
Ad Milt, proper functioning of the templates can also be validated by putting the subpages template on any of the articles in the long list I prepared above.
--Daniel Mietchen 15:43, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, Daniel, that's a lot better! Now one last thing. When you click on the show button and are taken to the next page, you are shown some info at the top of the page BUT there is then a LARGE blank space beneath that info, so that unless you KNOW that you should scroll down to the bottom of the page, you won't know that you SHOULD scroll down in order to click on the "fill out the metadata" link etc. I'm sure that many people would go to this page, simply look at the top of it, wonder what the hell they were doing there, and then leave, *without* filling out any of the metadata. Can't you get rid of this useless blank space? Hayford Peirce 16:32, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
Done. --Daniel Mietchen 22:17, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
Great! I'll have to create another new article (sigh) to check things out one last time.... Hayford Peirce 22:40, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
Daniel and Chris: I just created a new article, Crude oil desalter, and I must agree that the changes made in all those pop-up alerts is a great improvement over what they were before I started this discussion. Thanks to all. Milton Beychok 05:24, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
That seems just about perfect, Daniel, at least given all the previous template stuff that you have to work with. I just created Philip Atlee and have a one *minor* suggestion. When the main article has been created, we now have a header in black that says something like "The metadata is missing; if you feeling like doing it, please create it; details" then there's a blue link that says SHOW. I suggest that you rewrite the longer stuff to say something like, "The metadata is missing; if you feel up to creating it, please click on the SHOW link to the right" and REMOVE the word "details" -- it's *slightly* confusing.... Hayford Peirce 23:31, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Good suggestion. I made the change. --Peter Schmitt 23:57, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
Peter, that's perfect! Kudos to you and Daniel. I really think that there is now going to be a lot less confusion! In fact, I'll drink to that! (Goes off to make a Scotch and soda....) Hayford Peirce 01:50, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Moving

Hi Chris. From what I can tell, you've been trying to clean up a few articles and put pages in their proper places recently. I noticed that this has resulted in a bibliography and external links page attached to an article about a different subject.

As I'm merely a lowly 'author', I don't think I am allowed to move pages. I thought about cutting and pasting, but then I thought it might be better if the pages were moved properly.. so I thought I'd drop you a wee note.

The article the subpages belong to is, I believe, United Empire Loyalists.

Cheers (and sorry for adding to your workload!). --Mal McKee 03:05, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

I moved the two files. By the way: There are no "lowly" authors. You could have made the move yourself. (You are only asked to be carful, of course.) --Peter Schmitt 10:06, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Chris, or someone else who knows what s/he's doing...

...could I prevail upon you to do the archiving thing with the January Write-a-Thon and leave me a blank page for February? Thanks! Aleta Curry 03:49, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

More on metadata

I'm sorry to throw the proverbial spanner, boys, but this didn't occur to me before.

I have only just created a new article since the (excellent, I may add) changes to the setup.

Could I just ask, if it's possible, for the 'create a metadata page if you feel up to it' notice box thingy to appear *after* a body has 'saved' the new article, not before? At present it appears if you "preview". Now, if you click through to metadata creation on a "preview" page, you have to remember to go back and 'save' the original, or all your hard work is lost!

I haven't (yet) tried it the other way, so I don't know what appears if you ignore the 'create metadata' bit and just click 'save' first.

Aleta Curry 01:18, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

You write: "Could I just ask, if it's possible, for the 'create a metadata page if you feel up to it' notice box thingy to appear *after* a body has 'saved' the new article, not before?". I'm not sure I understand this exactly. How do you normally start a new article? Chris Day 04:25, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
This problem/request was not related to the "Who's on First?" metadata problem, right? Chris Day 04:55, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
Chris, I think I recognize Aleta's concern. Once the subpages template goes into a new article, "preview article" brings up the metadata prompts. From bitter experience, if I write a new article of any appreciable length, I make sure to save before inserting the template. It's not hard to get lost in the prompts, decide not to fill them in, but neglect to save and thus lose the work. --Howard C. Berkowitz 05:11, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
Now I understand, I never use preview so I have not been down that route. All I can suggest is bold letters saying first save your work. Would that be sufficient? Chris Day 05:13, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
I just added a warning message to save. Hope it helps. However, one will never be able to prevent all mistakes. If there are too much warnings they will not be read anymore ... Probably one has to make one's mistakes, and learn from them.
Preview can be usefull. I sometimes use preview, and sometimes not. Sometimes I wished I would have used it instead of showing my stupidity in the history ;-) --Peter Schmitt 10:25, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
Yes, Howard got it in one. I'm not as brave as you are, Chris, I almost always use 'preview', I look entirely too foolish otherwise. Trust me, no one should see my 'scrap paper'! The down side, of course, is how many times I forget to actually 'save'--sigh Aleta Curry 10:41, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
p.s. Chris, was the Who's on First metadata problem caused by my mistake in the status field? Let's face it: I'm a genius! Aleta Curry 10:47, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
Just a hint: If one has forgotten to save it is often still possible to go back to that edit page using the the browser's back button. --Peter Schmitt 12:44, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
Er...yes, but when I say 'forgotten', I really mean it. Like, I've shut down the computer, turned off the generator, taken the dogs for a walk, had my hair done (okay, that's a lie), made dinner...and then I come back next day wondering where that incredibly excellent 240 page cluster that I started is! Aleta Curry 22:15, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

The "Fair Use" upload summary

Chris: In the last few days, I uploaded two logos by claiming Fair Use. They were the logos for ASTM International (ASTM) and for International Organization for Standardization (ISO). When I went to CZ:UPLOAD / I am not the copyright holder / This use of the work is Fair Use, I arrived at the upload file form to be filled out. It has a one-line window in which to write the rationale for claiming Fair Use (i.e., the window labeled "Notes").

Here is what I wrote as my rationale: "The logo image is used to identify the International Organization for Standards. The significance of the logo is to help the reader identify the organization, assure the readers that they have reached the right article containing critical commentary about the organization, and illustrate the organization's intended branding message in a way that words alone could not convey. The entire logo is used to convey the meaning intended and avoid tarnishing or misrepresenting the intended image. The logo is of a size and resolution sufficient to maintain the quality intended by the organization, without being unnecessarily high resolution. Because it is a logo there is almost certainly no free equivalent. Any substitute that is not a derivative work would fail to convey the meaning intended, would tarnish or misrepresent its image, or would fail its purpose of identification or commentary."

It was very difficult to write all of that into a one-line window and to check it for spelling, grammar and omissions. Is there any way to revise that upload file form so that the "Notes" window is at least 6-8 lines wide?

By the way, most of my above rationale was borrowed from WP ... because I could find no similar rationale help in CZ. Milton Beychok 04:27, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

I made a reply ing the forum. But in case you missed that. For me, I use the upload primarily as a decision tree to get the correct templates. I often make changes and additions to them after the upload is complete. In this case that might be the best way to go.
As to the technical suggestion of adding a larger edit window. I would, if I could, but I'm not sure where to make such changes. Or what to change. Possibly Peter might have a better idea? Chris Day 04:30, 8 February 2010 (UTC) test

Thanks for getting the water freezing point straightened out (if it just stays that way).

Thanks, Chris. Milton Beychok 06:28, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

New template

Hi, Chris. Thanks for your offer of further help (not that I can find it...)

Can you make the unknown letter at Template:Common misspellings prolog show itself, please?

Ta! Ro Thorpe 17:42, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Where are you not seeing it? Chris Day 17:44, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
I think I understand your point now. It will not show on the template itself. But look at the page where the template is used and you will see the correct letter there. Chris Day 17:50, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

That's what I thought I was doing - but anyway, it all seems to be fine now - thanks. Ro Thorpe 18:03, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Pedia tricks

Thanks for following up on it! --Daniel Mietchen 17:26, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Categories, bots and templates

Categories can be removed fairly easily by a bot. Let me know if that would be worth it (haven't found the page you use to track these). Also, could you please take a look at {{Basic elemental def}}, perhaps in conjunction with User:Daniel Mietchen/Sandbox/Elements? I am thinking of prepopulating the empty pages via preload templates, but would appreciate some more input. --Daniel Mietchen 19:23, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

If the bot can do that, great, although It might be tricky to program since it might not be able to predict every type of category or combination to remove? I just made an addition to your template. Check it out on an element page and see what you think. Chris Day 19:48, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
The bot can in principle be given a list of applicable categories, or wildcards could be used in defining their names. No need to program for combinations — it will simply edit the same page again when working on the next category.
Thanks — the addition is valuable, but the current setting (not mine, by the way) is not compatible with {{r}}:
Neptunium [r]: Add brief definition or description
--Daniel Mietchen 20:44, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
Now I understand. i thought you wanted to populate the element article pages but you're actually after a template to add the definition. I'll modify it as best i can, will probably have to have the definition pages {{BASEPAGENAME}} added as a parameter, i.e. {{Basic elemental def|Parameter}}, since it will not transclude properly otherwise. Chris Day 20:55, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
I tweaked it enough now that i think it will work with the r template and also with a lemma article. Chris Day 21:29, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Daniel, are you trying to modify the template so it will work for the "Hydrogen (element)" format? I noticed that you had all those links on your page too. Chris Day 22:21, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Daniel and Chris, I hope you do not mind, but I wonder if it would not be better -- and require the same (or even less) effort -- to create the definitions with a bot (using the same logic as in the template)? Or even manually copy the definitions from Daniel's page to the definitions? --Peter Schmitt 23:58, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
I don't know for sure but I was thinking that Daniel might be planning to use a substitute script along those lines? Chris Day 00:56, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
I am not too eager on using a bot for just those 100 elemental definitions (too time-consuming, relatively speaking, to get it approved), so I thought I would create those pages by means of preload templates, similar to the CZ:Eduzendium course setup wizard. Ideally, there would be no piping (e.g. by integrating {{Basic elemental def}} with {{r}}.
I do plan, however, to set up a bot that creates lemma articles in place of empty pages for which a definition already exists.
On a related note, I am inclined to think that {{r|foo}} should also display Foobar/Definition if Foo redirects to Foobar and Foo/Definition does not exist. No idea how to make the template recognize a redirect page, though. --Daniel Mietchen 18:40, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
As for Hydrogen vs. Hydrogen (element), I would prefer the latter to be applied throughout, but think that would be up to the chemists to decide. My idea was just to prepare the templates such that a coherent system can be easily achieved. --Daniel Mietchen 18:46, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I think using (element) is not a bad idea, but I'm not a chemist.

As for {{r|foo}} using foobar definition if there is a redirect from foo->foobar, I agree that might be good but I'm not sure if it is possible to read the target if the redirect? You do know you can pipelink with the {{R}} template?

With regard to populating the pages. If you want to use all the subpages with the properties for each element they will have to be moved to the new name, i.e. Boron/Atomic number to Boron (element)/Atomic number if you do not want to have a parameter in the template. This could be done easily by moving every element along with all its subpages. I'll modify the {{Basic elemental def}} template so it does not need a piped parameter. Chris Day 19:22, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

May I remind you that using single properties subpages is a disputed matter? --Peter Schmitt 00:33, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
I'm aware of that. So far, I am just asking questions of Daniel and tinkering with the template since I'm not 100% sure of what he is proposing. One thing I do think is important is to have a basic page for each element. Chris Day 02:04, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
I am aware of that too, and it actually inspired me to have another look at the matter, thus prompting my tinkering with these templates. The point here, however, is to have a consistent format, which can be achieved by means of a template transclude predefined content onto the definition page, and it can easily be adapted to either the current system with multiple properties subpages or the discussed alternative with one centralized metadata-like page. --Daniel Mietchen 23:20, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
On pipelinking, I am well aware of that too, but many non-bot starts of Related Articles pages are made by simply dumping in a list of related topics, formatted using {{r}}, without much regard for which articles actually exist. So we often have the case described above that {{r|foo}} does not bring about a definition, even though one exists at [[foobar/Definition]], when Foo is a redirect to Foobar. I am wondering whether this is the way it should be. --Daniel Mietchen 00:37, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

(unindent) Not related to the chemistry stuff but well within the scope of this section: Can you please take another look at Template:Bot-created related article subpage, which I attempted to modify such that it accommodates Lemma articles? Example to play around with: Biomedical engineering. Thanks! --Daniel Mietchen 16:53, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Daniel, looks good to me. What is your rationale that these need to be distinguished? So we can fortify our navigation network with lemma related articles pages? Chris Day 17:47, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Does not look good to me — Category:Lemma Bot-created Related Articles subpages is full of articles which do have metadata. I suspect there is a problem with a wrongly placed pipe in the template or with the way I check for the presence of the Metadata page, but I couldn't figure out the details.
The rationale for this distinction is that if there is no metadata, then the names of the categories at the page will be broken, since they are by default composed from the metadata. And yes, extension of the related articles grid is the purpose of the bot, which can be configured to work with lemmas too. --Daniel Mietchen 20:12, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Strange. I'll double check. Chris Day 20:14, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
That was it. Thanks! --Daniel Mietchen 20:36, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Automated handling of content - doubts

Sorry that I am negative. But I have serious reservations against any automatic handling of content. Providing a standardized definition for the elements is rather easy (and in principle I like thinking of the logic behind such programs) but I don't think that they are really useful. Giving the atomic number in the definiton is trivial, but not very informative. Some element specific information (about its importance, or some peculiar property, etc.) is much better. Now, of course, the generated definition can alway be replaced. -- but it is much more likely that a non-existing definition is provided than that an existing one (correct though simplistic) is rewritten.

Concerning the idea to automatically convert all definitions without main page to lemma articles: I think there is a legitimate use for lemma articles (ask Howard), for definitions to redirects, but also for definitions without a page (only intended to be used in Related Articles). The difference is that -- if the page does exist -- a link to that page will look correct though it may be better to link to another page. This decision cannot be made by a bot. (For the same reason I think that one also should be careful with redirects and only use them for "correct" titles. but not to lead from incorrect titles to a correct one.)

--Peter Schmitt 00:49, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I think I disagree with the first paragraph, while I am not sure I understand the second. But once we have a coherent template system, I wanted to bring the matter to the forums anyway. --Daniel Mietchen 23:23, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
The purpose of lemma articles is discussed in this dedicated thread at the Forums. --Daniel Mietchen 09:53, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

About National Institute of Standards and Technology and metadata templates without provisions for subgroups

Chris, the National Institute of Standards and Technology was written before there were any subgroups and the Metadata template specified only the Physics and the Chemistry workgroups. I added the Engineering workgroup.

The was no place to add a subgroup, so I added sub1, sub2 and sub3 to the template. Then I specified Chemical Engineering as sub1.

The bottom of the Main Article then listed the categories as Physics, Chemistry, Engineering and Chemical Engineering as it should. The National Institute of Standards and Technology shows up in the Physics and Chemistry and Engineering workgroups as it should do ... but I cannot get it to show up in the Engineering and Chemical Engineering subgroups despite twice making a null edit to the article's Talk page. Can you please get it to show up in the Engineering workgroup and the Chemical Engineering subgroup?

There are a good many of the older articles that have metadata templates which don't have sub1, sub2 and sub3 in them ... so perhaps they should be added somehow. Milton Beychok 17:41, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Milt the null edit needs to be made to the article. i just did that and it is now listed as you'd expect. Chris Day 18:50, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
As to the sub1-3 field holders, yes they were a fairly recent addition so many metadata pages will not have them. Possibly Daniel could add them with a bot? Chris Day 18:54, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

That's one false move for man ...

Chris, I think I understand that a page is placed in Category:False Start Move when the metadata template is not completed, but can you explain how United States War Department shows up in that category when that page is only a redirect? Russell D. Jones 18:40, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

This is normally because it was in the false move category and then the metadata gets cleaned up, thus it is out of the category. Now the flaw in our system (auto placement of categories), the article is listed in the categories that exist when it was last edited. It should be removed from the category after a minor edit to the article. Chris Day 18:44, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
I just looked into this a little more closely and it is actually due to it being on the talk page (See Talk:United_States_War_Department). Citizendium differs from other wiki's in that a talk page will show up on a category without the name space being listed. BUT, sometimes you can distinguish this since it will be listed in the category under T. The reason we do this is that many of the housekeeping categories are placed on the talk page, so such categories do not have every entry starting with "Talk:". Chris Day 19:00, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
Ah-ha, I've got it. Thanks for the clarification. Any reason why I can't do a clean-up? Russell D. Jones 19:06, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
No reason, that is what you should do. The subpages template should be removed from that page as it does not work on talk pages of redirects. The talk page could be speedydeleted if it is empty too. Chris Day 20:51, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
I've discovered that some Lemma articles are showing on this list. Any advice there? Russell D. Jones 21:33, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
I just jogged Evolution of language and it got removed from the category. I'm not sure why it was in there, looking at the history there is no clear reason. All I can imagine is that Daniel added the subpages template to start the lemma article before the he created the definition page. In that order there would be a false start category that would disappear with the creation of the definition subpage. In such instances the article will always need to be jogged with a null edit or it will remain in the false start category, even though the category no longer appears on the page. Chris Day 21:42, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
Correct guess on Evolution of language, Chris. I did that on purpose to test how the {{subpages}} machinery would react to this unusual order of page creation, and think we should somehow include this scenario into the phrasing of the warning messages, depending on whether a definition already exists or not. --Daniel Mietchen 22:01, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Here's another quirk of the functionality: If a user creates a page all in one edit with a subpages template, the page will get categorized as "False Start Move" but it will not show up on Category:False Start Move. It requires two edits to the article page before it will show on the category page. See Declaration of the United Nations. Russell D. Jones 22:33, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

So presumably an edit only uses categories that are already on the page. I wonder if that is the case with manually added categories? By the way, these are general issues with the wiki software. I think you'll find they exist on your in-house wiki, as well as wikipedia. Obviously this is less of a problem when there are a lot of edits. One of the advantages of having a ton of vandalism?? Chris Day 22:40, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
I just tried creating a page and adding the category manually. In that case the edit does register correctly. So it is the auto-generated categories, only, that need the double kick. What a pain. Chris Day 22:44, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Wow

Noticing changes that you and Howard made to the "Criticism of US foreign policy" article -- excellent idea to make military spending as a % of GDP; you guys are pros. Impressed.--Thomas Wright Sulcer 01:35, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Error correction/s

There needs to be a better way of handling external complaints than going public with the emails on the Talk page. My suggestion is to leave the 'complaint' on the appropriate workgroup forum or forward the post to the appropriate mailing list. The workgroup mailing lists and workgroup forums are currently under-utilised. 01:10, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea. Chris Day 01:24, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
There are no errors in the article btw. Listen is a totally different group/line-up to Obs-Tweedle. Noddy Holder as 'roadie' is referenced. Meg Ireland 01:27, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Having no access to the images I can't comment further, however since my information was gleaned off Bill Bonham who played in the band Obs-Tweedle, I'm fairly confident his information is correct. Meg Ireland 04:20, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
Chris, I just spoke again to Bill Bonham who confirms the article I wrote as being correct. Bill Bonham knows Noddy Holder very well. You can visit Bill Bonham's MySpace site at http://www.myspace.com/quiffo . Meg Ireland 08:10, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

For what it's worth I uploaded the pictures on the messageboard. For the record I don't doubt your sources. Chris Day 17:17, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Chris. Some of those newspaper clippings appear to have been taken from scans on the LedZeppelin.com forum thread called 'HOBBSTWEEDLE' (yes I know, an incorrect name by another poster) originally scanned by a guy in Birmingham called Chris. I was a part of that thread discussion on Obs-Tweedle. I might reuse some of those clippings for the Listen article, rather than the Obs-Tweedle article since they are two different bands. While it may have been possible Noddy Holder was roadie for Listen, my insertion of Robert Plant's quote was based on Plant's recollections which are referenced from Q magazine and repeated in subsequent newspapers, and from what I could gather from my interview with Bill Bonham in 2009, before I composed the article. On the quote about Bill Bonham playing keyboards with Hari Kari while Robert Plant was singing for Obs-Tweedle, here is an email response I received from Bill this morning: 'Yes I was in Hari Kari but when I was in Hari Kari was way after Terry Reid and Led Zep came out with there first album.. Obs-Tweedle split when I joined Terry Reid or some time after I left' He is clear he didn't join Hari Kari until after Obs-Tweedle folded. Meg Ireland 22:16, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

(Unindent) I don't know anything about the pros and cons of the info in this article or of the worth of the newspaper clippings -- I merely brought them to your attention. But please review the CZ guidelines on what Wikipedia loves to kick around as Original Research. Our own strictures are less rigid, but they *do* exist. Larry, for instance, made it clear, when I first joined, that the fact that Robert A. Heinlein told me that one book or another was his best book could NOT be incorporated within the Heinlein article. He encouraged me to write a Topic Informant article, however, (TI:Hayford Peirce/Heinlein,) with this information in it, and a link to that article now appears at the top of the Heinlein Talk page (Talk:Robert A. Heinlein). It may be that some of the information in this article should be handled in the same manner.Hayford Peirce 22:36, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

This is not original research. The quote, which seems to have sparked that email, is referenced from a reliable published source (according to WP standards). External references are used throughout the article. There are no errors in the article. This appears to be a case of someone who confused Listen with Obs-Tweedle and/or dislikes the fact that Robert Plant referred to their idol Noddy Holder as a roadie. Nothing is 'made up' or unverifiable for this article. Meg Ireland 23:45, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
I do not see any reason to exclude "personal communications" (they are used in scientific literature, too). Why should a personal communication to an author be excluded (if labelled as such) when a source that cites a personal communication would be accepted? --Peter Schmitt 16:20, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
Because the source citing it is deemed to have checked and certified it. Authors on CZ have no recognized authority to do that. I don't know whether editors do. Peter Jackson 17:32, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Quintile

Chris, this is a minor issue, but it could lead to establishing some general policy. By accident, I noticed that you deleted Talk:Quintile (after copying part of it to Talk:Percentile). I left it with the redirect because it is part of the history of this page, and it does not hurt if it remains there. (My tendency is to preserve as much history as possible, e.g., by blanking rather than deleting.) --Peter Schmitt 16:31, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Thank you!

Thank you for helping me to edit that list. Nick Bagnall 16:18, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Copyedit to protected page

Hi Chris,

in {{Community}}, can you please change the "Main Page" in 

|width=10% align=center style="background:#F5F5F5"|<small>[[Main Page]]</small>

to "Welcome Page"? Thanks! --Daniel Mietchen 18:43, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Daniel, that was a cascading protect from kim's talk page. I edited her page and it seems to have removed the protection on that template. I'll change it though too. Chris Day 18:59, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

CZ:Request Approved Article Copyedit

Chris, with Matt being AWOL for the past 10 days or so, the list of approved articles needing copy edits is growing. I have about 10 approved articles listed there myself. Can you fix those?

If you need a volunteer to do some of that work, either temporarily or permanently, I am available ... but I will need some tutoring on how to do it. Regards, Milton Beychok 19:49, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks very much for your prompt response. There is still Chemical engineering where Meg Ireland corrected spelling of succesfully to successfully. Could you do that one as well? Thanks, Milton Beychok 21:06, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
I think that was specific to the draft as it is not in the main article. Chris Day 21:22, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Intron

Hi I found some new info about Intron but I wasn't sure if you wanted to include it in the article; currently it's in the sandbox User talk:Thomas Wright Sulcer/sandbox7 plus some pictures and diagrams. Feel free to include it; I'm not a scientist, and I found that while I couldn't make much sense of the technical articles, when reporters explained it, I could grasp the basics.--Thomas Wright Sulcer 04:56, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Looks good Thomas. Feel free to paste it into the article. I can work on it there. Chris Day 20:06, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
OK, thanks Chris, like I'm not a scientist and so it's cool that you can catch glitches which reporters make.--Thomas Wright Sulcer 00:42, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

The Image:Gasoline Fuel.jpg

Chris, I don't know how you did it, but your merge of the two photos is very much better than my original one. Thanks very much. Milton Beychok 18:22, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

When I cut out the gas pump I made sure the selection tool cut all the white out. I merged the two images using the anti-alias option so the edges of the pump did not look too sharp. Third, I brightened up the pump to make it a little more striking. Glad you like the changes. Chris Day 20:09, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Intersection of cat adoption and tall tale?

Tall tail?

(I am not making this up: Mr. Clark rejected tuna, wet disgusting cat food, and his expensive hypoallergenic dry cat food. He insisted on going upstairs into the general cat area, and into the bin of regular dry cat food -- in which he then went to sleep.) Howard C. Berkowitz 19:10, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

2012

I'm kind of looking for a green light before working on "2012" -- not that I'm that interested in it, but wondering what the policy is and whether others here will support it. It's a hot article on WP even though it's kind of a stupid subject (futurism stuff) as well as a movie. Wondering if there's some kind of "approvals in advance" place to get permission for dubious articles.--Thomas Wright Sulcer 17:54, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

I really don't know much about it. But it would be no worse than an article about UFO's or astrology. Chris Day 18:28, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
OK, thanks, so you're saying if I write it, that you don't think I'll have problems with it. Thanx, Chris.--Thomas Wright Sulcer 18:41, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
I can't think of a reason why there would be a problem. Chris Day 18:44, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Asking for your comments

Chris, would you look at the "Nitrogen cycle" section of the Air article ... and make any revisions you think are needed? Thanks, Milton Beychok 19:30, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Can you improve Image:Venturi Tube.png ?

Chris, the only drawing program I have is Microsoft's Paint program that is included with Windows XP. As you can see in Image:Venturi Tube.png, the lines that are not horizontal or vertical (that is, the angled lines) are quite "jagged". Does your program create angled lines that are not jagged? If so, could you replace the jagged lines in Image:Venturi Tube.png with lines that are not jagged? It would greatly improve that image. Milton Beychok 05:54, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Milt, there are multiple free graphics packages out there that far exceed the capabilities of MS Pain(t) — to the point of being hypercomplex. Two that probably merit a look for diagrams like these are Open Office Draw and Gimp. --Daniel Mietchen 08:59, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, Daniel. One of these days I will take the time to download one of those and learn how to use it. Milton Beychok 17:31, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
Chris, thanks for fixing the Venturi image for me. It looks much better now. Milton Beychok 17:31, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Your talk at the New Communication Channels for Biology Workshop 2008

Hi Chris, can you send me your slides from that workshop, or put them online? They may be useful for drafting the OKCon 2010 paper. Thanks! --Daniel Mietchen 18:38, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Wow, i'd forgotten about that. I'll root them out. Just looked on this computer and no sign, it must still be on my semi-dead (screen is broken) lap top. I'll boot it up tomorrow and see if i can find anthing on its hard drive. Chris Day 03:17, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
Thanks! I put the slides up here for everyone to work on. --Daniel Mietchen 09:47, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

CC vs. PD

How, for Pete's sake (as some would say), can I upload (and correctly credit) an image directly as PD? The only option I saw to do so always leads to it being labeled as CC0-1.0, and at least in this set of three images (which shall serve to illustrate the Panton Principles), I do not want to have any name attached to it, because that is the message of these Principles. --Daniel Mietchen 14:04, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

I just looked at the upload file link and it seems to be click on the "I am not the copyright holder" tab. Then select the "in the public domain" option. Then for the license select "creator has released into the public domain". Are you not seeing those options when you do the upload? Chris Day 14:15, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
I do, though this time I went there via "I am the copyright holder" and "Release into the Public Domain", which gave the CC0 attribution. I think the problem with the upload wizard is that Caesar left when he was mostly but not entirely done with it. --Daniel Mietchen 14:19, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
[EC] OK, I just followed the "I am the copyright holder fork" and now I see how you got to "Creative Commons CC0 1.0 Universal License". I guess that is equivalent to public domain? But this is beyond my ken. If Caesar was not done with it, possibly the PD license option should be at that point too? Chris Day 14:20, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
The two are practically equivalent in the US but CC0 is more universal, since most jurisdictions do not have PD, but all have copyright law. Anyway, CC0 means that also no BY is needed. --Daniel Mietchen 14:41, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
I've just spent 10 frustrating minutes at Image:Drink to Yesterday.jpg trying to "Upload a new version of this file". Can't be done. All you can do is start all over again and upload another file under another name AND fill out all the @#$%^&* information that you had to do with the first one! And unless you're maybe a combination of Bill Gates and Steve Jobs, you can't "Edit this file using an exterior application" either. Geez! Hayford Peirce 00:37, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
That doesn't sound right. Are you using the link titled "Upload a new version of this file" just above the Links section title. Chris Day 00:43, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Yes. Hayford Peirce 00:55, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
PS -- I use Chrome as my browser. Could that be affecting things in some mysterious way? Hayford Peirce 01:03, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
If you choose the new file to upload and then save, leave everything else blank, then it will be fine. You'll see. It will ask you if you want to ignore all warnings. Select yes and then you're done. Chris Day 00:59, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
It keeps telling me that I need License info, and the license info isn't what I want. And it won't work unless I choose a license. No way. Hayford Peirce 01:03, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
I just tried it, and it works fine with jpg, but when I use .png, I get "The file is corrupt or has an incorrect extension. Please check the file and upload again." --Daniel Mietchen 01:08, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
It still doesn't work. I have, on my computer, a *smaller* version of the present image. It has the same name and is a .jpg. A few minutes ago I had a slightly different name on it, but it was the same .jpg file. It doesn't matter *what* it's called. No matter *what* I do, I am told that I MUST choose a license. If I don't choose a license, it will NOT upload the file. Period. Hayford Peirce 01:24, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
I just tried and it worked fine. All I did was choose the new file on my desktop. Then save. Then chose ignore all warnings. That's it. All the files data and licenses are intact. Chris Day 02:21, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
A box doesn't pop up and tell you that you have to choose a license? Do you have a Papal dispensation, or what? Hayford Peirce 03:48, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
No, I've never seen that and I've updated images at CZ quite a few times. Chris Day 04:15, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Off to bed, but tomorrow I'll do a screen capture of the box I get and I'll email it to you. Don't know what else to do. Hayford Peirce 04:43, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Space Invaders

Sorry, I thought I'd got the hang of new pages but apparently not. I've seen the changes you made and will follow the example when making futher pages. --Chris Key 00:29, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Lemma formatting

What do you think of displaying the definition above the instructions in lemma articles? I just did the switch (also this one). --Daniel Mietchen 11:32, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Somehow, the definition pages do not display properly now, and I guess {{subpages}} would have to be remodeled to accomodate the change I made. Do you think that's worth it? --Daniel Mietchen 19:50, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
I reverted both changes and moved the testing to the test wiki: Lemma, Def only. --Daniel Mietchen 01:31, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Could not pinpoint exactly what the problem was, so I went back to normal for the time being. On a related note, what do you think of merging {{Def only}} and {{Lemma}}? --Daniel Mietchen 23:07, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
I would not be against that. I'll have a look and see how it can be streamlined, or do you already have a plan? Chris Day 03:34, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
I do, but can't put it in words easily (other than moving the conditionals from {{Def only}} to {{Lemma}}). Will thus give it a go on the test wiki, and let you know how things go. --Daniel Mietchen 07:32, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
I merged them and added some categories, which makes {{Def only}}, Category:Definition Only and Category:Related Articles Only redundant. Please check and adapt as you see fit. Thanks! --Daniel Mietchen 11:46, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Things work fine on the test wiki, but the display problem that started this thread interfered when I did bring the changes over to the live wiki (where {{subpages}} has not been updated yet. So please transfer this edit to {{subpages}} (possibly with this typo correction) and then revert this edit. Test clusters: Glia, Open Knowledge Foundation. Thanks! --Daniel Mietchen 12:49, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Daniel, i made the change but is the definition page the way you intended? Chris Day 17:56, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
Fixed and streamlined. --Daniel Mietchen 22:22, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
Nice work Daniel, that's a big improvement. Chris Day 23:11, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

The section on "Nitrogen cycle" in the Air article

Chris, about two weeks ago I asked you to look at the section on "Nitrogen cycle" in the Air article and revise it in any way you felt was needed. I know you've been busy, but I would still appreciate your review as a biology editor of that that section. Thanks in advance. Milton Beychok 16:56, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi Milton I looked at the Nitrogen cycle article and proposed a revamping here in a sandbox: User talk:Thomas Wright Sulcer/sandbox2 I expanded it but I'm not a scientist or technically-minded like you or Chris so I'm deferring to your judgment. I'm finding my paint program doesn't work well, so I hand-drew a diagram, but still am unhappy with it. I'm wondering if there's a good paint program that is simple, powerful, works with Ubuntu Linux so I can do better quality stuff here.--Thomas Wright Sulcer 02:25, 27 March 201UTC)
Thomas, my request of Chris was simply to take a look at the small section of the Air article that briefly describes the nitrogen cycle ... briefly on purpose.
What you have written in your sandbox2 is a an expansion of the stub article on the Nitrogen cycle ... which I very much agree needs to be expanded, but which is out of my field of expertise. So I don't believe that I am really qualified to comment on your expansion of that stub article. I would suggest that, in addition to Chris Day who is a biology editor, you contact Anthony Sebastian who is also a Biology editor and quite active. I would also point out that a very good drawing of the cycle is available in Wikimedia Commons [1] where it is designated as being in the public domain. Other good drawings can probably be found with a bit of Googling. Regards, 03:27, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
Does Anthony Sebastian have the "Nitrogen cycle" article on his watchlist? If so he'll see a note I placed there. I did this article first so that I would be in a position to help you with the "Nitrogen cycle" section of the "Air" article. But I'm not an expert by any stretch either. Good idea to get the picture on Wikimedia Commons -- my drawing didn't come out as well as I had hoped, but I still have illusions of being an excellent CZ sketch artist!--Thomas Wright Sulcer 14:27, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

False start move

Hi Chris, I think Category:False Start Move is overpopulated, and at least partly with what should rather be in Category:Lemma Article, e.g. pages like Citizen science/External Links. As far as I can tell, the culprit is the if nesting in {{Subpages}}, so I can't fix it. Please check. Thanks! --Daniel Mietchen 23:24, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Daniel, is this still a problem? There did not seem that many there or is that because you have processed them? From what i could see they were mostly left over subpages or lemma like pages without a definition. Chris Day 18:06, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
I think I see what you mean, now that i have looked more closely at the example of Citizen science/External Links. At present the only lemma subpages supported are /Related Articles and /Definition. Are you suggesting that we should allow /External Links and /Bibliographies too? Chris Day 18:11, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
Yes, and Video. In principle, I would like to have all subpages enabled for Lemmas. This allows to collect materials in the right place even though the article has not been written yet. --Daniel Mietchen 18:34, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
I'll look at the coding and see if it is an easy fix or not. If so I'll do it as soon as possible. Chris Day 18:39, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
If you would unlock it over on the test wiki, I could join the coding. --Daniel Mietchen 19:49, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
I have changed and tested it on the test wiki. Please transfer it here. Thanks! --Daniel Mietchen 20:20, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
Thanks! My edit also contained a typo correction. --Daniel Mietchen 08:29, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Nomenclature for botany articles

Plant hormone or plant hormones or plant growth hormones?

  • Auxin or auxins?
  • Cytokinin or cytokinins? The animal article is cytokines.
  • Gibberellin or giberellins?
  • Tissue culture
    • Plant tissue culture

I'm beginning to think I need to become your student... --Howard C. Berkowitz 22:54, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

I've been his student for years...Anthony.Sebastian 03:09, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Checklist22

Hi Chris, please comment on this, either there or here. Thanks! --Daniel Mietchen 19:13, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

You just want to know about the test link? That was a hyperlink to walk authors through a move cluster sequence. I did that by opular demand to try and make the process of moving a cluster more efficient and transparent. It never really did serve the purpose as things got complicated if the article was moved before the metadata template. Since then, it got broken with a mediawiki update and i could not figure out a good work around. I had forgotten it was still available as an option. We should probably just remove and delete all the templates associated with it. Chris Day 19:25, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, fixed. --Daniel Mietchen 20:15, 29 April 2010 (UTC)


Please join with me in urging Hayford not to resign

Chris, see my plea to Hayford not to resign as Constable (on his Talk page). Please join me! Milton Beychok 20:04, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Listing-defined references test

As of September 2009, the Cite.php extension was modified to support list-defined references. These can be implemented with the parameter to the {{reflist}} template, or by using a pair of HTML tags (<references> and </references>) in place of the <references/> tag. These reduce clutter within articles, by putting all the citation details in the section at the end where the footnotes are displayed. As with other citation formats, these should not be added to articles that already have a stable referencing system, unless there is consensus to do so. When in doubt, use the referencing system added by the first major contributor to use a consistent style.

The example below shows what list-defined references look like in the edit box:

The Sun is pretty big,<ref name=Miller2005p23/>
but the Moon is not so big.<ref name=Brown2006/>
The Sun is also quite hot.<ref name=Miller2005p34/>
==Notes==
{{reflist|refs=
<ref name=Miller2005p23>Miller, E: ''The Sun'', page 23. Academic Press, 2005.</ref>
<ref name=Miller2005p34>Miller, E: ''The Sun'', page 34. Academic Press, 2005.</ref>
<ref name=Brown2006>Brown, R: "Size of the Moon", ''Scientific American'', 51(78):46</ref>
}}

Below is how this would look in the article, once you had previewed or saved your edited section:

The Sun is pretty big,[1] but the Moon is not so big.[2] The Sun is also quite hot.[3]

Notes

  1. ^ Miller, E: The Sun, page 23. Academic Press, 2005.
  2. ^ Brown, R: "Size of the Moon", Scientific American, 51(78):46.
  3. ^ Miller, E: The Sun, page 34. Academic Press, 2005.

Defined references must be used within the body; unused references will show an error message. However, non-list-defined references (i.e. ordinary footnote references fully enclosed with <ref> and </ref> tags) will display as normal along with any list-defined ones.

The Sun is pretty big,[1] but the Moon is not so big.[2] The Sun is also quite hot.[3]

  1. ↑ Miller, E: The Sun, page 23. Academic Press, 2005.
  2. ↑ Brown, R: "Size of the Moon", Scientific American, 51(78):46
  3. ↑ Miller, E: The Sun, page 34. Academic Press, 2005.
Chris, I tried this because it is such a great improvement ... but I cannot get it to work. Milton Beychok 22:35, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
I tried it in my WP sandbox and it works perfectly. But the identical edit box coding does not work in my CZ sandbox. Has that Cite.php extension revision been implemented for CZ? It would greatly improvement the readability of edit boxes and make editing revisions, rewrites, etc. very much easier. Milton Beychok 23:36, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
I agree with you with regard to why we want this here. I'm assuming this does not work here at CZ, I was testing it here. The text above might be confusing, it is a direct cut and paste from wikipedia. I'll ask Dan if he knows what to changes need to be made to the Cite.php exension here to make this workable.Chris Day 21:04, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Categories for images

What do you think of letting images inherit the categories of the articles they are used in? I think this should not be too complicated — the code for this is all in the {{subpages}} system, and images are placed via {{image}}. The only problem I see is that imagemaps are currently not compatible with the latter. --Daniel Mietchen 20:38, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

How would the categories be placed on the image page? What is the mechanism for "inheriting" the categories from the articles they are placed in?
As to the plan, it sounds like a good way to know what images are being used in each workgroup or subgroup. A problem I forsee in the future is that such categories are too broad. A better way would be able to break them down further into groups of categories, i.e. pictures used in articles on "Biology AND Chemistry" or "Biology AND Chemistry AND Health Sciences" Would that be possible? Chris Day 21:15, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
The more I think about it, the less sure I am about the mechanism, at least with the currently installed extensions. My initial thought was that we would need an {{images}} template on each image, which could then place categories much like the subpages system does. The problem is that there is just one place where the relevant information is stored in the subpages system, and unless we introduce some metadata system for images (which would probably not be a good idea), there will always be several such places for images used on more than one page. SemanticMediaWiki, however, may come to the rescue, so by the time we really need the feature, we may actually have it. --Daniel Mietchen 16:24, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Re-approval of Gasoline

Hi, Chris, I think that I have responded to the points raised by you and by Howard on Talk:Gasoline. Howard has asked for your help in how to do the re-approval nomination (see Talk:Gasoline). Would you please help him? Thanks, Milton Beychok 20:45, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

" Nitrogen cycle" section of Air

Chris, I noted your very recent edits of Nitrogen cycle. I would much appreciate your looking at the "Nitrogen cycle" section of the Air article and correcting/revising/whatever you believe is needed. Thanks, Milton Beychok 00:08, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Better use of subgroups?

As you may have noticed, I've been creating quite a few subgroups (e.g., the specialties of internal medicine, veterinary medicine), assorted computing topics, etc. In general, I conceived each subgroup as highly correlated with a mailing list, professional organization, or some other recruitment target.

If they are to be a recruiting and work planning tool, would it be possible to display the article status in the list of articles for the group, rather like rpl? Howard C. Berkowitz 06:42, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

It also might be useful to display the list of subgroups from a link on the left, just as we do for workgroups. Someone else probably has to do that.
The Subgroups article seems to suggest there can be subgroups of subgroups, but doesn't explain the syntax. Here would be an example:
  • CZ Internet applications subgroup
    • CZ World Wide Web subgroup
    • CZ Electronic mail subgroup
    • CZ Distributed computing subgroup

--Howard C. Berkowitz 15:12, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

As I have already said elsewhere: The idea of workgroups, subgroups, and potential subsubgroups should not be used as a substitute for a good subject classification (we will need one!). Unless there are at least three (better more) authors interested a "group" makes no sense. --Peter Schmitt 15:53, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
I'm not suggesting these as a substitute for classification. I'm suggesting these as preparing for an agreed-to recruiting campaign just to get such members, for which we clearly don't have enough current Citizens. For example, CZ: Internet operations is the specific goal of the North American Network Operators Group, which has a mailing list to which I subscribe and at which I've been active. If I send a mail to the list soliciting membership, including a pointer to the subgroup gives potential Citizens an idea what exists as resources, what can be improved, or, perhaps under the homepage for the group, what is needed. In like manner, I'm on a Trauma and Critical Care mailing list, which covers two subgroups. Web people tend not to be interested in email and vice versa. Howard C. Berkowitz 16:00, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
I have to agree with Peter. Don't we have to have three interested editors before we create a subgroup? D. Matt Innis 16:12, 14 June 2010 (UTC)
Actually, no -- anyone can create, although endorsement requires editors. I haven't always had an endorsing editor, although I myself have the Editor status for most except medical. Nevertheless, under "be bold", what is being broken? This is additional information and doesn't delete anything in place.
Yes, if it might be also of value as an interim categorization system, how is it bad to help readers find things for which the current workgroups are at too coarse a level of granularity? Simply as an author, I find them useful to see what exists and what is needed. Howard C. Berkowitz 16:15, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

You've been Nominated!

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Article 54

  • In conjunction with the Declaration of the Editor-in-Chief regarding the effectivity of this Charter, there shall be a call for nominations for the following offices: Managament Council (five seats), Editorial Council (seven seats), Managing Editor (one), Ombudsman (one). This shall be the effective date of the Charter.
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Re your Pinkwich5.js page

Chris, on your Pinkwich5.js page [2], you show: 

// install User:Pilaf/Live_Preview page preview tool
document.write('<script type="text/javascript" src="'
+ 'http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Pilaf/livepreview.js'
+ '&action=raw&ctype=text/javascript&dontcountme=s"></script>');

May I ask what functionality that code provides you, and how does one implement that functionality?

Thanks.

BTW: I use WikEd, it works well in latest versions Firefox and Chrome, but not IE9 (beta) or Opera. Anthony.Sebastian 20:06, 11 October 2010 (UTC)


Tony, I stole it all from someone's page, I forget who. It was so I could get preview functionality. But I don't know anything about how the code works. Sorry i can't be more helpful. Chris Day 23:41, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Vote!

Hi Chris! Did YOU Vote??? See the orange Sitenotice header! D. Matt Innis 23:59, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

The page I went to was a lot of nominations but I didn't notice a place to vote. I'll look again. Chris Day 02:09, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
That's scary! If you couldn't find it :( You have to follow the links to the voting pages for each one. D. Matt Innis 02:11, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
I got it now. I just didn't read it properly. I was expecting to vote on the charter but that was all long gone. I'll vote now. Chris Day 02:13, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
Oh, didn't think of that! I changed the banner - see how bad we need YOU! D. Matt Innis 02:17, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
Well it would help if I had read the prolog instead of jumping right to the tables. Anyway I voted. Chris Day 02:30, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
There you go! Democracy in action! D. Matt Innis 02:34, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
Perfect proof, I would say, that Democracy Is For The Birds! (hehe) Hayford Peirce 03:08, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Approval for Thylakoid

Chris, I prepared what Gareth calls a "short and sweet" article, Thylakoid. Will you look it over to see if you could add your name to the Approval banner? Otherwise let me know what you think it might need. Thanks. Anthony.Sebastian 15:22, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

New Biology editor

We have a new Biology editor named Dorian Q. Fuller. Perhaps you may wish to put a welcome message on his Talk page. Milton Beychok 16:47, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Re Thylakoid Approval

Chris, I responded to your comments on the Thylakoid Talk page, making a number of edits and adding images. If it looks okay to you, will you consider adding your name ToApprove. Thanks. —Anthony.Sebastian 04:52, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

New Biology author

User:James Parker is a new Biology author, a student at Edinburgh interested in molecular genetics. Bruce M. Tindall 17:32, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

!

Hi, Chris, thanks for dropping in again, I knew you would. I have a question for you... Ro Thorpe 19:25, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Nomination for the Management Council

You have been nominated for a seat on the Management Council in the July-August Special Election. The nominator was myself. To accept or decline this nomination, please visit the Nominations page by midnight UTC on July 27th. You may write an election statement for each if you wish (linked from the Nominations page).

The Management Council seat expires on either June 30th, 2014, or June 30th, 2015 (the successful candidate with fewest voting receiving the shorter term). In the event that Referendum 1 is passed, all seats will expire on June 30th, 2014. Thanks! John Stephenson 17:18, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Removing Talk:ArticleName/Draft

Thanks for your note. The one thing I haven't been able to do is completely remove the /Draft Talk pages for articles with status '0' while retaining the information in the Talk page banner. The {{subpages}} template has been altered so that clicking 'Talk' in the banner goes to the main article's Talk: page, but for articles with citable versions (former approved articles), this still redirects to Talk:ArticleName/Draft and not just to Talk:ArticleName, because only the former displays the definition, unused subpages, etc. I tried to fix this by altering the 'To Approve Inner' template by removing the references to 'Draft', but this results in all the information in the banner of the Talk page disappearing if the status is '0'. I tried various other edits and templates, but no joy. Can you suggest anything? Thanks. John Stephenson 15:35, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

No suggestion off the top of my head. I'll have to re-familiarize myself with the code, but I'll take a look. Chris Day 18:58, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

You've been nominated as a candidate in the June 2014 election

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You've been nominated as a candidate in the June 2016 election

You've been nominated as a candidate for the post of Managing Editor in the June 2016 election. Please visit this page to accept or decline. No action will also be treated as declining. If you accept, you may choose to write an election statement - see the election page for further details. Alternatively, contact me via my Talk page or privately via e-mail. Regards, John Stephenson (talk) 19:16, 27 May 2016 (UTC)

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