User talk:Richard Jensen

Richard Jensen

Current talk page

Archive 1, Archive 2, Archive 3

Enquiry about Time Magazine Cover

Hi Richard,

Acting in the capacity of Constabulary member here.

Have you obtained permission to use the Obama-Cinton Newsweek Time Cover? --Thomas Simmons 18:39, 18 February 2008 (CST)

It's Time, and yes they give blanket fair use approval for small copies at [1]. Richard Jensen 18:55, 18 February 2008 (CST)

I must be slow tonight, but I've read the Time website twice now and I can't see where they give blanket permission for anything at all. Quite the contrary. Could you maybe find their permission phrase and copy it into this discussion? Thanks! Hayford Peirce 19:17, 18 February 2008 (CST)

sure: they say "Except as otherwise expressly permitted under copyright law, you may not copy, redistribute, publish, display or commercially exploit any material from the Time Inc. Sites without the express permission of Time Inc. and the copyright owner." Our fair use is expressly permitted under copyright law; see our Fair use article. Richard Jensen 19:22, 18 February 2008 (CST)

So, you have the part that says you are expressly permitted? Where is that then? Your link is to a CZ article.--Thomas Simmons 17:57, 19 February 2008 (CST)

This is section 3 B from your link to [2] pathfinder.com: You may not modify, publish, transmit, display, participate in the transfer or sale, create derivative works, or in any way exploit the content of the Time Inc. Sites or any portion of it. Except as otherwise expressly permitted under copyright law, you may not copy, redistribute, publish, display or commercially exploit any material from the Time Inc. Sites without the express permission of Time Inc. and the copyright owner. In the event of any permitted copying, redistribution or publication of material from the Time Inc. Sites, no changes in or deletion of author attribution, trademark, legend or copyright notice shall be made. You acknowledge that you do not acquire any ownership rights by downloading copyrighted material. Without limiting the generality of the foregoing, you agree that any text, photo, graphic, audio, and/or video on the Time Inc. Sites owned by the Associated Press ("AP") shall not be broadcast, rewritten for broadcast or publication or redistributed directly or indirectly in any media.

Looks fairly clear to me. This section is saying that it can not be posted here. --Thomas Simmons 18:04, 19 February 2008 (CST)

No, it says it that it can not be posted here unless the fair use law allows it, which it does. How else can you read the key line "Except as otherwise expressly permitted under copyright law"? I read it as fair use law applies. Richard Jensen 19:56, 19 February 2008 (CST)

Hello Richard,

At the moment our mutual understanding of "fair use" is vague enough that it would be prudent to abstain from using this. We do need to clarify the use here as "Fair use" in accordance with the wishes of the copyright holder. You might even drop them a note to ask specifically. The copyright box that accompanies the cover is filled in with "blah blah blah" and that is not really possible to explain as an attempt at complying with the pertinent laws either. We are concerned with being very sure that the wishes of the copyright holder are not contradicted by use here in any way.--Thomas Simmons 05:36, 21 February 2008 (CST)

we agree CZ needs to settle its fair use rules, for which discussion is underway. I closely followed the draft proposals at [3] which explictly allows use of magazine covers. Under fair use the wishes of the copyright holder do NOT matter and the fair-users (CZ) do NOT ask permission for exercise of their rights. (See Chicago Manuial of Stle 15ed pp 137-8) The blah-blah actually is CZ boilerplate-to-be-added; it was generated by the CZ upload-file process, not by me.Richard Jensen 10:02, 21 February 2008 (CST)

• POINT 1: The CZ draft proposal has no legal impact on the owners of the Time cover. In fact, nothing decided here--and nothing has been decided yet--has any legally binding impact on the owners. It is to simply guide us here at CZ and it is a draft. In other words, our fair use policy understanding does not allow us to do anything if it contradicts the meaning of fair use in the eyes of the owner. As yet no one here has asked the owners of the Time cover if we have interpreted their statement correctly.
• POINT 2: It very much matters what they wish. They own it.
• POINT 3: The boiler plate is supposed to be filled in by the person who uploads the file at the time it is uploaded. If you up-loaded the file it is your responsibility to fill in the pertinent blanks. Blaming the 'blah blahs' on a software programme is counterproductive and just plain nonsense. The person up-loading must do it.

--Thomas Simmons 18:04, 21 February 2008 (CST)

point 1 is irrelevant and 2 is simply wrong regarding federal law (and contradicts what TIME says regarding fair use). Fair use means we have a right to use it. Look at Fair use and [4]. I suggest you write TIME. Richard Jensen 18:11, 21 February 2008 (CST)

POINT 1 is hardly irrelevant. CZ does not adjudicate copyright law. Whatever the owner wishes is sufficient reason to endow them the motivation to seek legal redress if they perceive anything has been been used inappropriately. The attitude that their wishes are without relevance is quite simply irresponsible.

POINT 2 makes it clear that the meaning of fair use is hardly iron-clad and incapable of being read more than one way. That is why there are lawsuits over the use of copyrighted materials. The fair use statement that accompanies the publication in question is NOT clear. Their purpose and their understanding are of absolute concern here.

POINT 3 is strictly the responsibility of the person who uploads the file. I did not upload the file. In my capacity as constable I have drawn your attention to our concerns and obligations. What I see here now is a user telling CZ that the person who uploads a file has no obligation to provide the required information for such a file. --Thomas Simmons 18:25, 21 February 2008 (CST)

what is your interpretation of Time's line: Except as otherwise expressly permitted under copyright law ? I think our dispute hangs on your reading of this statment. Point 3 is a trivial matter and not a constable issue. My claim is fair use but CZ software which says so is not finished yet; I did furnish the fair use info and the CZ software is at fault, not me.Richard Jensen 18:49, 21 February 2008 (CST)

You're cleaned up

I moved everything to your Archive 2. --D. Matt Innis 21:42, 7 January 2008 (CST)

"Analysis" re:John Edwards

Richard; if it is indeed an analysis then I would recommend backing up this "analysis" with evidence that supports the conclusions rather than just blindly reinstating hyperbole. --Robert W King 10:01, 8 January 2008 (CST)

Robert, please read the Talk page and the many citations given there. Do you argue that Edwards did NOT change style since 2000??? If so you are defying the experts and you need to find an expert that backs your theory. Richard Jensen 10:20, 8 January 2008 (CST)

Reapproval of Nathanael Greene

The Nathanael Greene article has undergone a fair share of updates since it was approved, mostly spelling and grammar. I'd like to see the cleaned up version get approved if you're up to it. Thanks --Todd Coles 22:08, 8 January 2008 (CST)

yes it's OK by me, but I don't know what the re-approval procedure is? what do we do? Richard Jensen 23:04, 8 January 2008 (CST)

The re-approval procedure is exactly the same as the approval process. --D. Matt Innis 23:07, 8 January 2008 (CST)

well not quite. the new draft page says it is "Approved article: approved by editor(s) according to our process" when the new draft in fact is not yet approved. Richard Jensen 23:20, 8 January 2008 (CST)

Hehe, the policy is the same, but obviously the procedure changes, hmmm. I'll follow up on your try and we'll write it as we go. --D. Matt Innis 23:28, 8 January 2008 (CST)

I think this worked [5]. I just filled out the ToA section of the metadata page but make sure to keep the status at 0 so the template remains green. I think it works. --D. Matt Innis 23:42, 8 January 2008 (CST)

Richard, there have been several edits to Nathanael Greene since the approved version. Do you want me to add those edits to the approved version? --D. Matt Innis 22:49, 14 January 2008 (CST)

sure go ahead. Richard Jensen 22:58, 14 January 2008 (CST)

Civil

Insults or personal attacks, on talk pages or other open forums, that are relatively mild, but which are still objectionable on grounds that they aggressively impugn the moral character, or personal or professional credibility, of a project member. It does not matter whether these attacks are made using Citizendium resources or other resources. --D. Matt Innis 23:25, 8 January 2008 (CST)

Party! You're invited!

Hi Richard — Your neighbourhood Mistress of Ceremonies here. Don’t forget to come on over to the party and sign in at one of the categories! Aleta Curry 16:31, 9 January 2008 (CST) say ‘hi’ to me here.

Pittsburgh articles

Hi Richard, we were updating the subpages on the article that were approved before subpages were developed by moving the bibliographies. I think you like to leave some on the main article. Would you take a look and see which ones you want to keep and which ones can be deleted? All of them have already been moved to the bibliography page by Todd. --D. Matt Innis 22:21, 14 January 2008 (CST)

thanks for the tip. I did as suggested and also dropped lots of red links from Wikipedia. Richard Jensen 22:46, 14 January 2008 (CST)

There are a couple of notes that seem to be missing their 'note' [6]. --D. Matt Innis 22:59, 14 January 2008 (CST) and here [7] --D. Matt Innis 23:03, 14 January 2008 (CST)

The notes seem to be in random order. that's crazy. How can we make them go 1-2-3-4 ?? Richard Jensen 23:06, 14 January 2008 (CST)

I'm not sure about the 1-2-3-4, but it looks like there was probably some text that was deleted that contained the first reference for this one <ref name="Lorant"/>. Maybe that is messing them all up. --D. Matt Innis 23:22, 14 January 2008 (CST)

there are lots of problems with the footnotes. minor ones (no italics) & missing page numers. Almost all the references to popular sources like Lorant are not needed. So I will trim them down and try to leave those that might actually be useful to a person writing a paper. Richard Jensen 23:26, 14 January 2008 (CST)

Since those would only be copyedit changes, when your done, just put it up for re-approval for say one day and then we might as well get the whole thing moved to the Approved version. Just go to the metadata page and put your name under the ToA editor and that should do it... I hope :-) --D. Matt Innis 23:30, 14 January 2008 (CST)

OK I will try. :) Richard Jensen 23:32, 14 January 2008 (CST)

Remember, just copyedits changes, otherwise we would need three editors!!! --D. Matt Innis 23:33, 14 January 2008 (CST)

Right, I am just doing minor changes to text (and adding a few items to bibliog). I wish you could do that approval magic for me. I keep screwing it up. :( Richard Jensen 23:35, 14 January 2008 (CST)

Richard, I found the references for those that were missing. When we split the article, we forgot about bringing over the first reference... I have no idea how it made it through approval. I'll put the approval tag on the two articles for one day. Just let me know if you need more time. --D. Matt Innis 19:04, 15 January 2008 (CST)

I dropped all the unnecessary references to well-known facts that came from popular sources (like EB 1911, and Lorant pop history), and keep the more recondite ones that might prove useful.Richard Jensen 19:22, 15 January 2008 (CST)

Re-approved! That was the long way around, but I think it was the right way to do it. Thanks for your help. --D. Matt Innis 21:22, 16 January 2008 (CST)

Thanks again. isn't there a button we can click to automate the process? Richard Jensen 22:10, 16 January 2008 (CST)

Thanks!

Thank you for the compliment on education sections. Yi Zhe Wu 11:29, 21 January 2008 (CST)

Euclid and Euclid's elements

Hi Richard, I wrote about Euclid and Euclid's elements. I'm finished so far. Maybe you like to add some more historical perspective to it? --Paul Wormer 09:20, 24 January 2008 (CST)

you know, I fell in love with Euclid in 1956. I wonder what's new. :) Richard Jensen 10:02, 24 January 2008 (CST)

Does that mean you'll write some?--Paul Wormer 10:53, 24 January 2008 (CST)

yes. Richard Jensen 13:37, 24 January 2008 (CST)

Countries - HIstory Workgroup?

Hi Richard-quick question - Should countries be automatically placed in the History Workgroup. I've noticed some are, some are not. I'll go ahead and start adding; please advise if I shouldn't. Aleta Curry 19:04, 25 January 2008 (CST)

On second thought, maybe I'll just note the ones I've noticed, since that involves changing the Metadata and then changing it back again if wrong. Ireland, Pakistan, Uganda Aleta Curry 19:18, 25 January 2008 (CST)

yes, all counties will get a long history section (eventually...I usually start with a historical bibliography). Richard Jensen 20:12, 25 January 2008 (CST)

I think Aleta was asking about workgroup tags rather than article content. While country articles will have a history section, they will so have political, economical and other sections applicable to other workgroups. I don't think we need to tag countries to every possible workgroup. I would not tag country articles like Poland to the history workgroup, even though the article contains a history section (actually it doesn't have a history section). However, I would tag articles like Poland, history to the history workgroup as they are exclusively about history. If we tagged every article that contained a history section to the history workgroup then I would suspect that every article on CZ would be tagged to history.

On a side point. Why Poland, history and not Polish history or Poland's history? I noticed in the core articles list for history that counties are all listed in a adjective form rather than using a comma. Derek Harkness 22:27, 25 January 2008 (CST)

I think we should presume taht every country will have a History section as a main component and thus should be tagged. (Once the section is big enough as in Poland it can be spun off and the tag dropped). The point of the tags is to alert history authors that the article is ready for their input. As for naming conventions, it's simpler and more elegant to use the Poland, history format for every country. People will then know immediately where to look. Richard Jensen 22:33, 25 January 2008 (CST)

Yes, Derek is correct, I was asking about the tags, not about the content.

Richard's executive decision is that all countries should be tagged in the History Workgroup, so I'll do that for the ones I find that don't have the History tag, and going forward.

Here's my side point (as long as we're at it). Why should we have Poland, history History of Poland, Polish history etc etc at all? Why is not HISTORY a subpage of the Poland cluster?

Since we have this beautiful system, why not use it to full advantage, and do we have to talk to Chris about setting this up?

Aleta Curry 19:33, 26 January 2008 (CST)

Subpages don't work that way. They are not sudo-categories under which a range of themed articles can be kept. Subpages are for other forms of content which support or add to the article. They are not for sections of an article.

Richard, would you also want cities and towns tagged to the history workgroup? Derek Harkness 02:28, 27 January 2008 (CST)

On cities and towns: some have a major historical importance -- especially capital cities, cultural centers and key places like New York, Florence, Montreal, Kyoto, Shanghai, etc and should get tagged. See Beijing. for most places the history should not be tagged.

California

When I was writing the education section in the California entry, I found that they have a decent amount of top colleges but ranks low in education. Can you explain the cause of this apparent contradiction? Thanks! Yi Zhe Wu 12:24, 26 January 2008 (CST)

good question,. it is a notorious paradox: at the top the university of California system is by far the best in the world. In recent years they have cut back $ on K12 schools. Richard Jensen 16:27, 26 January 2008 (CST)

Ha! So does that mean in ten years the California universities will no longer be the best in the world, or they'll be the best in the world but all full of foreign students? Aleta Curry 19:36, 26 January 2008 (CST)

Hehe, no, they're just all from the east coast :-) --D. Matt Innis 19:59, 26 January 2008 (CST)

My niece was valedictorian at Berkeley about 7 or 8 years ago, which I thought was terrific. Later I discovered that Berkeley has 10 or 15 valedictorians every year, spreading them out over a range of different fields. Being an old geezer, I'd never heard of that before. Maybe most big U's do it that way these days?Hayford Peirce 20:51, 26 January 2008 (CST)

California's UC system (ie the PhD schools, Berkeley, UCLA, San Diego, Irvine, Santa Barbara, Davis, Santa Cruz) will remain the best in the world. 40-50% of the undergraduates are Chinese-American....they attended the mediocre California public schools but took a lot of supplementary help. (They are the offspring of recent, post 1965 immigrants from Chinese lands). The grad students come from worldwide. (My daughter just applied to the PhD program at UCLA so we do follow that story.) (Note that the California State Colleges are a different system and not nearly as good; they do not award PhDs).Richard Jensen 23:11, 26 January 2008 (CST)

Canada

With pleasure. I certainly shall, in the evenings when I have time. And I saw the big bibliography that you had created for PEI -- great. Frankly, what got me re-interested in Citizendium was an article I had created on the Hochelaga Archipelago -- importing it from what I'd done on Wikipedia. I did a Google search for Hochelaga Archipelago and saw that it had suddenly popped up to 4th, right on the first page of Google results. I was so amazed I was going to write Larry sanger about it. It showed, to me, that with enough linkage, Citizendium can start registering on Google, which I believe is vital. cheers, Shawn Goldwater 10:50, 31 January 2008 (CST)

Election formatting

Let me know on the election talk page if you think everything is ok. --Robert W King 18:42, 31 January 2008 (CST)

Martin Luther

Excellent article. Jonathan Beshears 01:53, 1 February 2008 (CST)

hey, thanks! Richard Jensen 03:31, 1 February 2008 (CST)

Scotland bibliography

Thanks for the kind words.

I'm trying to figure out what to do with the works of Walter Scott and especially John Prebble. I think a selection of their works belongs in the bibliography, but where to put them? A new section or two, probably, but what to call it? Scott wrote historical fiction. Prebble? Not quite in the same category as Tom Devine, but still more serious as history than Walter Scott.

James F. Perry 10:39, 5 February 2008 (CST)

Scott belongs in a separate article on Scottish literature, as does Prebble. My wife is a Campbell and I hear about Culloden and Glencoe etc all the time but I don't think Prebble "makes the cut" as a scholar in the company of the authors who are now recommended. One solution: in the main text of the Scotland, history article mention his work in a footnote to Culloden & Glencoe. Richard Jensen 11:40, 5 February 2008 (CST)

I started a literature section in the Scotland Bibliography subpage. Sorry about that move to the Canadian Bibliography page. I was going to transfer the references from the main article to the subpage, so I created the subpage, then when I went to the main article, I saw it referred to Canada, History, Bibliography and I couldn't just move (rename) that page because the target was not empty. So I copied it over to the subpage. Problem is that doesn't transfer the edit history showing that you were the compiler. Don't know what to do about it now. James F. Perry 16:04, 5 February 2008 (CST)

Your input is needed

Hi Richard,

You might want to pop your head into this proposal; http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/CZ:Proposals/Should_history_articles_be_named_with_general_terms_first%3FDenis Cavanagh 08:59, 15 February 2008 (CST)

Naval guns

Hey, great article! I did all the checklist mumbo-jumbo stuff on it for you; I also moved the bibliography to the /biblio sub-page, and since it was getting lengthy divided it up into books and articles (hope that's OK - if you don't like doing it that way, apologies). I had some editorial comments on the article - I'll post them on the Talk: page when I get a chance. J. Noel Chiappa 13:01, 26 February 2008 (CST)

hey thanks! Richard Jensen 16:13, 26 February 2008 (CST)

Sure. If you don't have access to the Hodges book, let me know if I can look anything up in it for you - it's a beaut.

Also, I checklisted Proximity fuse for you too; dunno if you have any others needing doing, but unless you want specific notice, I'll just do the rest quietly. J. Noel Chiappa 18:54, 26 February 2008 (CST)

thanks again. no need to notify me. I think we need illustrations (public domain) for guns and fuzes. Richard Jensen 19:36, 26 February 2008 (CST)

Walter Reuther

Does the phrase "fellow traveller" have a specific meaning in the opening of the Walter Reuther article? If so, maybe it should be linked. I get the feeling that I'm just not understanding the sentence, though... --Joe Quick 15:54, 1 March 2008 (CST)

yes, a "fellow traveler" is US political history is a person who deliberately collaborated with organized Communists in support of their objectives. Thus we say, to paraphrase, At first Reuther was a fellow traveller who worked closely with the Communists in the mid 1930s, then he changed and became an opponent of the Communists.Richard Jensen 17:17, 1 March 2008 (CST)

Okay, thanks. I'm going to wikilink it in order to signal to the reader that it's something particular and not just a bizarre way to phrase something else. --Joe Quick 13:36, 3 March 2008 (CST)

Led Zeppelin

Richard, I just want to thank you for voting for Led Zeppelin in the Draft of the Week. I never expected anyone to vote for it but I do appreciate it :) Thanks! Meg Ireland 17:07, 4 March 2008 (CST)

my pleasure to support an excellent artcile. Keep up the good work. Richard Jensen 17:24, 6 March 2008 (CST)

timeline template

Richard-

Would you mind testing out a timeline template I've created? It comes in two parts: {{Timeline}} to establish the timeline field, and {{TLevent}} to add timeline events. You can even change the colors and widths and stuff. Let me know if you come across any issues. --Robert W King 17:03, 9 March 2008 (CDT)

I like timelines and will give it a try. thanks. Richard Jensen 18:09, 9 March 2008 (CDT)

Cut-and-paste move?

Hi, it looks like you did a cut-and-paste move of The Crusades to Crusades. Was there a particular reason? (Because doing it that way divorces the content from its history, which is not good for copyright reasons... we lose track of who contributed what.) J. Noel Chiappa 17:36, 11 March 2008 (CDT)

the people working on the article agreed that it was better as "Crusades" than "The crusades"--CZ policy is to avoice "The XYZ" in favor of "XYZ", and the history is all there at the latter article.Richard Jensen 17:54, 11 March 2008 (CDT)

I don't think Noel is arguing about the rationale, rather it would be better to do a page move rather than a cut n' paste move. I'll fix it so the history is kept intact. Chris Day (talk) 18:01, 11 March 2008 (CDT)

Given how few edits there are in the old history it's probably moot in this case. I'll leave everything as is. Chris Day (talk) 18:03, 11 March 2008 (CDT)

Yes, exactly - I agree with the name change, it was just the cut-and-paste I was questioning. J. Noel Chiappa 18:07, 11 March 2008 (CDT)

Input requested re Naming Convention policy proposal

There's been a significant suggestion for a change to the proposed policy. Please look at CZ:Proposals/Naming Conventions for Biographies#Poll regarding suggested change and respond there. Anthony Argyriou 14:09, 12 March 2008 (CDT)

Some stuff for you

Hi, hope I didn't irritate you with my concern about the bifurcated article history at Crusades. Just one of my pet peeves, I guess.

Anyway, by way of something to compensate, I made time to review Naval guns as I had said I would. I have produced some lengthy comments, which you can find at Talk:Naval guns; I hope they are useful (and welcome).

Also, I have most of the books in my personal library in a database, and it's easy to cut-and-paste entries here. I have a couple of good Crusades sources which I don't think you list yet, like:

• Hans Eberhard Mayer, (translated John Gillingham), "The Crusades", Oxford University, 1972
• Francesco Gabrieli, (translated E. J. Costello), "Arab Historians of the Crusades", Barnes and Noble, New York, 1993
• Carole Hillenbrand, "The Crusades: Islamic Perspectives", Routledge, Florence, 2000
• Bernard Hamilton, "The Leper King and His Heirs: Baldwin IV and the Crusader Kindom of Jerusalem", Cambridge University, New York, 2000
• Stanley Lane-Poole, "Saladin and the Fall of the Kingdom of Jerusalem", Khayats, Beirut, 1964

I also have a large number of others on my 'buy some day' list. Would you like me to add these to the article (most would go in the "Specialized studies" section), or should I just list them on the talk page, and you can decide what to do with them? J. Noel Chiappa 21:36, 12 March 2008 (CDT)

Noel thanks for the Crusade bibl--why don't you add them. I'm of the opinion students will love our bibliographies! (I make a point of linking to Amazon.com when that site has the "search here" feature.) I'll look at the naval guns matgerials now.Richard Jensen 22:39, 12 March 2008 (CDT)