User talk:Larry Sanger

Larry Sanger

Current talk page

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rock bands

Mr. Sanger, Thank you for the revision and comment on talk page. I think it is a very good idea. Just a question, is the article rock and roll the same thing as rock music? If yes, then the article possibly should be moved. Thanks! --Yi

Your question is an excellent one. I don't know the answer, and I think you should research the question and report the results on "rock music." You might want to consult a music scholar. --Larry Sanger 11:11, 7 October 2007 (CDT)

I think rock and roll is best defined as the earliest form of rock music. Robert Thorpe 11:14, 13 October 2007 (CDT)

Sysop group messages

Hmm, should I revert MediaWiki:Group-sysop‎, MediaWiki:Group-sysop‎-member back to "Sysop" (these determine what shows at Special:Listusers if "Administrator" makes it seem to much like Wikipedia? Is there some better word to use that "Sysop", which at best, people will think means "Systems operator". "Moderator" seem to loaded as well, as if this is a forum. Aaron Schulz 13:04, 7 October 2007 (CDT)

I'm off for a bit--I don't quite understand what you're asking, I'd have to look intot it. Later! --Larry Sanger 13:24, 7 October 2007 (CDT)

I reset them back for now. Aaron Schulz 17:06, 7 October 2007 (CDT)

Quorum?

Hi Larry, I noticed that CZ Editorial Council is currently considering Resolution 0006a and 0006b. I was curious about how the voting system works, is a quorum required before a resolution is passed? It seems that only a small number of the Council members have cast their votes. Thanks. Hendra I. Nurdin 05:08, 9 October 2007 (CDT)

See the link to the rules from CZ:Editorial Council. We require a 40% quorum, which we haven't got yet. --Larry Sanger 07:41, 9 October 2007 (CDT)

Topic Informant Group

Hello, sir. Robert W. King requested I ask you about something. Here is his original message, from the Cary Grant talk page:

"If I were famous and an author here I wouldn't be allowed to write an article about myself, but I can be a topic informant should anyone choose to write about me. See Larry Sanger for reference. I don't know if this pertains to only self-referential articles. Because you're publishing books on the topics that you're also contributing articles to, I would think that you might quality to be one, but I'm not 100% positive."

That's the message. However, to clarify: the first three books that will be published in my name will be novels (and they're still floating through the vast innards of the mega publishers), so for the next couple of years at least there should be no conflict. But I have a vast Howard Hughes biography; and I'm using stuff cut out of its appendix (all of which will have to go anyway, for the book to be commercial, but anyway); this is where my "U.S. commercial aviation history to 1966" and "Milestones in early flight (1919 - 1938)‎" and "Cary Grant" articles come from. The Hughes book won't be out for another five years at least I guess (who has time to cut a 1,000 pages out of a book?) so it's not like I'm here to advertise it, haha. I'm not exactly sure what this topic informant group is all about. (At the moment I am jazzed up about entering content, and am not spending enough time learning all of the technical details). So I'm sending this message in a kind of mystified way.Jeffrey Scott Bernstein 20:19, 9 October 2007 (CDT)

I answered on the Talk:Cary Grant. Matt Innis (Talk) 20:37, 9 October 2007 (CDT)

Just wanted to say welcome, again, Jeffrey--thanks for diving right in! --Larry Sanger 21:36, 9 October 2007 (CDT)

Earth Sciences top 33

Ciao Larry,

could you take a look here and give us feedback? Thanks in advance --Nereo Preto 12:53, 12 October 2007 (CDT)

Core articles and google (and other) searches

Larry - you've highlighted the top 10 google searches which send people to Citizendium; is it possible to publish the entire list? Also, is it possible to extract the statistics for which internal searches are most common? Both would help enormously with the Core Articles initiative. Anthony Argyriou 15:52, 12 October 2007 (CDT)

(My apologies for having asked this a number of places and in a number of forms. Anthony Argyriou 16:53, 12 October 2007 (CDT))

Top search queries]]

• list of us presidents
• don maclean
• histones
• famous tennis players
• cobalt ii nitrate
• pnas impact factor
• cat colors
• avril lavigne
• mitochondria
• famous marine biologists
• "democratic republican" party
• onslow beach
• mole unit
• rottweiler
• famous tennis player
• metabolism
• otto von bismark
• daltonism
• avril

Top search query clicks

• mitochondria
• avril lavigne
• penguins
• rottweiler
• hayley williams
• avril
• circulatory system
• hitler
• periodic table of elements
• declaration of independence
• vasco da gama
• florence nightingale
• protist cell
• biology
• metabolism
• list of us presidents
• avril lavinge
• emperor penguin
• new york city map
• avril lavıgne

--Larry Sanger 22:33, 12 October 2007 (CDT)

Category:Editors

Why are there multiple sections for the letters B, F, G, H, M, N, O, P, R, S, T, W? Supten 22:04, 12 October 2007 (CDT)

Don't know--one of our tech guys was working on this, I'll let him know. --Larry Sanger 22:26, 12 October 2007 (CDT)

Quality over openness

When I said this I wasn't criticizing CZ, I actually prefer it that way. I was just joking about the Wikipedia vs CZ rivalry with star wars gags ;). Aaron Schulz 22:41, 15 October 2007 (CDT)

Well, even if it wasn't meant as a criticism, the thought itself bothers me. Openness is the engine that makes wikis and other such projects run. If we aren't open, we aren't going anywhere. --Larry Sanger 08:14, 16 October 2007 (CDT)

Putting quality at a higher level of importance than "anyone can edit" is not the same as removing all openness. It just means that we try to be as open as possible, as long as it doesn't hurt quality. Aaron Schulz 13:47, 16 October 2007 (CDT)

Veropedia

I take it you are aware of this initiative? Although it doesn't quite seem to be living up to its potential --Russ McGinn 12:53, 16 October 2007 (CDT)

If the information on that star has been verfied then it is probably worth it being in veropedia. The biggest problem in wikipedia is subtle vandalism by users that make a series of edits changing important numbers in an article. First, if these vandals are caught it is common to revert some but not all of the edits (usually the latest one only). From that point on an error is maintianed in the article, possibly for years. Second, such vandalism is often over looked altogether if the vandal is intelligent enough to leave a reasonable edit summary. So, any data high article is a nightmare to maintain in an 'anyone can edit' environment. For this reason it makes sense to verify and lock down data high articles as soon as possible. Chris Day (talk) 14:03, 16 October 2007 (CDT)

Some random thoughts on forum [1]. Aleksander Stos 14:47, 16 October 2007 (CDT)

Can we import stuff from Veropedia? Yi Zhe Wu 17:19, 16 October 2007 (CDT)

I'd prefer not to. Veropedia is simply re-presenting Wikipedia articles. They deny they're a mirror of WP, but that is in effect what they are. For clarity, we should just import from Wikipedia. --Larry Sanger 18:24, 16 October 2007 (CDT)

VPedia is not changing the improted articles, just importing them. Stephen Ewen 13:43, 23 October 2007 (CDT)

signature

4-tildes signature stopped to offer a link? Is this a deliberate setup or is this a side-effect of removing "nickname" from preferences? Aleksander Stos 14:52, 16 October 2007 (CDT)

Is that really the case? Let me test...right now: Larry Sanger 18:23, 16 October 2007 (CDT) Seems to work OK to me. --Larry Sanger 18:23, 16 October 2007 (CDT)

Mine stopped offering a link too. I had to go into my preferences and uncheck the "raw signature" option. I really miss my (talk) page link. Joe Quick 22:51, 16 October 2007 (CDT)

Thanks. Aleksander Stos 00:47, 17 October 2007 (CDT)

Yep, bummer, but doing as Joe said fixed it for me, too. Stephen Ewen 01:22, 17 October 2007 (CDT)

"subpagify"

Do you mean, "subpaginate"? --Robert W King 19:28, 16 October 2007 (CDT)

Whatever. We're making up words. --Larry Sanger 19:40, 16 October 2007 (CDT)

cfa.html

Got all the instances that Google was able to tell me about. There are probably others that are protected from search engine spidering, but those are probably less important. I also skipped over older talk page comments - I don't see any reason to update those. --Joe Quick 22:47, 16 October 2007 (CDT)

Cool. Thanks, Joe--I'll be e-mailing you soon. --Larry Sanger 09:24, 17 October 2007 (CDT)

Englishman in Portugal

Hello again, Larry, that was me - Robert Thorpe 16:47, 17 October 2007 (CDT)

Thanks--talk to you tomorrow. --Larry Sanger 21:36, 17 October 2007 (CDT)

Suggestion

Just in case you haven't seen it yet: I've posted a suggestion in response of your comment at Template talk:Subpages#Print icon. Happy editing! --Eddie Ortiz Nieves 17:59, 17 October 2007 (CDT)

Thanks (and welcome!). --Larry Sanger 21:36, 17 October 2007 (CDT)

Wow

The account creation log is getting hotter! Did you invite people? Aaron Schulz 19:10, 17 October 2007 (CDT)

Yep. See CZ:Recruitment. I told you that when we started recruiting, things would heat up, didn't I? :-) --Larry Sanger 21:36, 17 October 2007 (CDT)

And, speaking of recruiting, I sent out an e mail to the Connecticut Counseling Association listserve this morning asking for input on the Psych pages. :) --Michael J. Formica 19:03, 8 November 2007 (CST)

Sidebars

Print media have sidebars: Text boxes that appear with the main article and contain important explanatory material, but that are set off graphically and positionally. They are common, and very useful. For their purpose, they are better than references/links to stuff on other pages.

Citizendium could have the same. Think of being able to insert and position some text, just as we do with images. Louis F. Sander 08:21, 19 October 2007 (CDT)

Have you seen From Dawn to Decadence? Is that sort of thing you're talking about?

It'll be very difficult to persuade people to change their habits--and it would also be difficult to code up--but I wouldn't dismiss the idea out of hand. Putting notes at the bottom of the page is probably a hold-over from the old days of expensive publishing layout. We have no such problem anymore. --Larry Sanger 11:30, 19 October 2007 (CDT)

While Wikipedia overuses "infoboxes", this sounds similar, and it may be useful, if not carried too far. Certain subjects would benefit from a uniform visual method of presenting certain basic facts about the subject. It's quite easy to create sidebars by writing long captions for images, but that has limitations, both technically, and as a matter of policy - we don't want to encourage people to write five-paragraph captions when either a sidebar or new subsection would be more appropriate.

Larry - you mentioned notes at the bottom. Perhaps someone couldcode up an extension that puts the text of a ref tag into a "tooltip" when the note is hovered over? We are currently using the <ref> tag for references and for notes, but it would be useful for both. It might also be annoying, so definitely this should be tested and discussed before it's done. Anthony Argyriou 12:34, 19 October 2007 (CDT)

Clearly, we need to get some clear proposals on the table and then we need to discuss them. The place to do so is not on my page (though I appreciate the heads up!), but instead http://forum.citizendium.org/ --Larry Sanger 13:08, 19 October 2007 (CDT)

Mark Mirabello

Dr Sanger, I posted this elsewhere:

I have been studying the Odin Brotherhood since 1982. Feel free to ask people here--at the Odin Brotherhood Discussion Group about the organization. They represent a small number of the members around the world.--Mark Mirabello 15:04, 19 October 2007 (CDT)

I have to confess, I battled Miss van der Linde on wikipedia, and I really have no time to engage her again. Perhaps the dozen or so pagans she knows have not heard of the group, but that does not prove her point. --Mark Mirabello 15:12, 19 October 2007 (CDT)

Dr. Mirabello, thanks for getting in touch with me. The article is going to have to go in "Cold Storage" until we get this sorted out. You may deal with me directly; you needn't battle Kim here if you don't wish to. But I'm afraid I am going to need to see more evidence of the existence of an Odin Brotherhood that exists beyond the pages of your book's five editions and an online community. Actually, I don't even require that. I require evidence that scholars who study neopaganism take the Odin Brotherhood seriously, and that they take seriously the claim that it is not merely your invention. --Larry Sanger 15:28, 19 October 2007 (CDT)

Rock and roll and Rock

I've split the former into two, as discussed above. And I've sent you an email, having read more carefully! - Robert Thorpe 16:58, 19 October 2007 (CDT)

OK, sounds good! --Larry Sanger 20:22, 19 October 2007 (CDT)

A misunderstanding...

Larry, we have a couple of misunderstandings here.

1. I am sorry. I am newbie here, my ID having being created about 30 hours ago. You might think your point was very simple. But I honestly, sincerely, really don't understand what you are asking me to do.
2. I didn't say I was going to write political essays on Talk:Extrajudicial detention. I said the opposite, that I wasn't going to clutter up the page with material that wasn't directly connected to its topic.
3. I planned to write those essage on sub-pages of my user page, precisely so I wouldn't clutter up Talk:Extrajudicial detention with off-topic material.
4. And those mini-essays I planned to write last night were not going to be "political essays", they were going to be my respectful questions and opinions about design issues. I spent a few hours this morning, looking at the guidelines you recommended I look at, and at the Citizendium fora. And I think my thoughts would be better shared there, with the similar questions and opinions shared by other participants.

I am not going to get grumpy over what is almost certainly a simple misunderstanding, and from my review of your other comments, out of character.

Yours for co-operation. George Swan 18:38, 19 October 2007 (CDT)

George, see CZ:User Pages; please do not put essays about CZ policy on your user page, that is specifically prohibited. Use the forums for that, which is what everyone else does. We aren't Wikipedia--in several ways. For one thing, we don't use our user space as places to make political statements about how the project should be run. User space is for two purposes, namely, biographies and talk with other contributors. There are other, more appropriate venues for policy proposals. The Forums should almost always be your first stop.

As to what I am asking you to do in the article: compose the definition so that POWs are not included in the definition of extrajudicial detention; also, either expand the length of the sections, or remove the section headers altogether; finally, work on making the article into a neutral narrative. This involves, among other things, stating sympathetically not only the views of progressives on your topic, but also the views of U.S. conservatives--to put it into harsh relief. It's an introduction not to the true (progressive) view, but to the dialectic, which includes the true view, as well as evil, pernicious views--unless, of course, no one has it right.  :-)

As to grumpiness, I'd also have you review Professionalism. If you ever have a problem with my treatment of you, if you feel you can't approach me personally e.g. by e-mail, then consult with the Constabulary, and I assure you (indeed, I would insist) that they will approach the matter independently of me and serve as neutral peace brokers.

Yours for following the rules--and cooperation.  :-) --Larry Sanger 20:19, 19 October 2007 (CDT)

A little CZ history

I'm interested, when did you start planning for the creation of CZ? Not just when you realized that such a project was needed, but also when you started the actual process of creating it. I found three pages on WP that were all started in the spring or summer of 2006 and sound really familiar in a lot of ways: Expert editors, Expert retention, Expert rebellion. Of course, those pages all seem to have been more or less rejected by the broader WP community, but that just makes them more intriguing. The edit histories and talk pages for those pages make the whole thing even more interesting, because a number of familiar names crop up. --Joe Quick 16:30, 20 October 2007 (CDT)

That's a long story and it depends on what you consider "planning for the creation of CZ" to be. Something close to the concept of CZ as it was launched was conceived and discussed only about a month before the Sept. 15 announcement. I have a document titled "Preliminary proposal" dated August 24, 2006, but I probably started it before that. It wasn't named until about Sept. 10 or so. I was talking about a fork already in "Why Wikipedia Must Jettison Its Anti-Elitism." I actively worked on plans for a fork, but not CZ, for the Digital Universe as early as Feb. 2005, I think. --Larry Sanger 19:26, 20 October 2007 (CDT)

Hmm. Okay. Well it looks like the launch date was good timing in any case, at least in terms of public opinion. In terms of addressing the problems with Wikipedia, your first thoughts were probably more timely. At least we know that CZ is responding to issues that are/were relevant to people who aren't already involved. Of course, there are lots of other clues about that. --Joe Quick 00:22, 21 October 2007 (CDT)

Catalogues

Yes, Larry, the note you put at come talk to Aleta is spot on. Aleta Curry 23:18, 21 October 2007 (CDT)

OK, Aleta--I will nudge that higher in my priority list, mentally anyway.  :-) --Larry Sanger 10:35, 22 October 2007 (CDT)

Happy Birthday to Us

Larry, I finally got the first draft of that Press Release ready for you to have a look at. It is in your email and on internal PR list. --Ian Johnson 09:56, 22 October 2007 (CDT)

Thanks very much, Ian! --Larry Sanger 10:34, 22 October 2007 (CDT)

Sign up to help with "What's Your Article?" here

• Larry Sanger

Common-latin name stuff

Please see the biology workgroup page for the compromise. The scientific(common) option is selected when there is a clear single common name that should be used over other names, aka, when there is a single authoritative source to be used. Kim van der Linde 13:08, 23 October 2007 (CDT)

Okey-dokey. --Larry Sanger 13:11, 23 October 2007 (CDT)

User:ContribBot

User:ContribBot needs to added to the bot group. This is done via Special:Userrights. It is set in the same manner as you assign constables, but you would select "bot" instead of "sysop" from the list. This prevents it from breaking recent changes. It can only be set by a bureaucrat. --ZachPruckowski (Speak to me) 14:10, 25 October 2007 (CDT)

Done. --Larry Sanger 14:12, 25 October 2007 (CDT)

How do I figure out how to make my contributions fit here?

Greetings,

We had an exchange over on talk:extrajudicial detention a week or so ago.

I need some advice. I wrote about it here, in forum-space. I am hoping you might have time to look at that and direct me to the right person, or the right fora, to learn how I might port and adapt GFDL material I wrote elsewhere so it complies with the standards here.

Cheers! George Swan 15:56, 26 October 2007 (CDT)

Robert > Ro Thorpe

Yes, Larry, I'd be grateful if it could be changed as far as possible. I was misled into unnecessary formality in my application. Only my mother calls me Robert! Robert Thorpe 11:09, 29 October 2007 (CDT)

Your article?

Is this initiative still going on? I didn't see any articles there. Yi Zhe Wu 23:35, 29 October 2007 (CDT)

No. Look at the message at the top of the page. --Larry Sanger 08:06, 30 October 2007 (CDT)

Gideon disambig

There's a response to your comment on Talk:Gideon's Trumpet. -- k. kay 21:19, 4 November 2007 (CST)

CV uploads

People can now attach a CV/resume file when requesting accounts, so you may want to update the interface messages, just to give a heads up. Aaron Schulz 13:07, 5 November 2007 (CST)

Yep, I just noticed that. Thank you, Aaron. --Larry Sanger 13:32, 5 November 2007 (CST)

MediaWiki:requestaccount-text and MediaWiki:requestaccount-ext-text probably need updating specifically. Aaron Schulz 21:22, 8 November 2007 (CST)

MediaWiki:Talkpagetext needs updating.

http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Talkpagetext

Currently it says "Please place the checklist at the top of the page" when it should read, "Please place the {{subpages}} template at the top of the page. See Subpage help for guidance" or whatever we use for that context. --Robert W King 21:44, 7 November 2007 (CST)

Fixed. Eventually I want to adjust this to use conditionals by namespace, but this'll work for now. --ZachPruckowski (Speak to me) 21:55, 7 November 2007 (CST)

I'd also put the text of "subpages" (between the curlies) as a link to the help page just to be on the safe side. Also one more thing: the edit bar at the top of the editbox shows repeating stuff... --Robert W King 21:57, 7 November 2007 (CST)

Yikes! When did that happen with the edit bar? -- ZachPruckowski (Speak to me) 22:13, 7 November 2007 (CST)

It *might* have been yesterday that I first noticed it, but I definately noticed it earlier this morning. --Robert W King 22:14, 7 November 2007 (CST)

I guess you've alerted "the proper authorities," Zach...? --Larry Sanger 05:35, 8 November 2007 (CST)

Question

Hi Larry, thanks for your edit to Haredi Judaism. I intend to expand that section greatly, however, one remark: without using a category structure, this would be very difficult. I prefer to write articles like a tree, with branches - using the Wikipedia category system (and perhaps more closely sticking to the original intention of that system).
Another comment: I think it would be useful to create a Judaism workgroup. At the moment, it looks like I would be almost the only editor - though I hope that User:Nahum Wengrov‎ will join in. I intend to ask some reliable Orthodox Jewish Wikipedia editors to join in also. Wikipedia has turned into a very rich library of articles on Haredi Judaism, things which cannot be found anywhere else online. However, POV-pushing by editors hiding behind anonymous screen names has completely ruined Wikipedia. I very much oppose anonimity (see my user page) and believe that all Citizendium users should be required to do even more to prove their identity. For example, verify a person's identity by regular mail, forcing that person to give you their real name and address. I think that when people are forced to use their real names and are forced to place their real contact information online, they are much less likely to show disturbing behavior on wikis. Thank you for your attention, --Daniel Breslauer 08:03, 8 November 2007 (CST)

Welcome!

Well, I hope we'll be able to create many new workgroups, but it is frankly on me to set up the mechanism that will do so. I apologize for the delay.

Like you, I'm in favor of breaking topics into parts and having articles on each of the parts. But rather than Wikipedia's category system, we are developing what I think will, eventually, be a superior system of Related Articles pages. --Larry Sanger 08:08, 8 November 2007 (CST)

Thanks. But see, for example: Hasidic Judaism. I want to create something different than Wikipedia's plain list - something that is more alive, that will in a few lines introduce a person to the background and characteristics of that group. I also want to prevent the word 'dynasty' and most definitely the word 'sect' from appearing anywhere. I intend to write articles about all groups, similar to the articles on Wikipedia, but less susceptible to POV-pushing and vandalism. Basically we are starting from scratch here. Both in order to avoid POV issues and for practical reasons I would prefer to 'recruit' another Orthodox Jewish Wikipedia editor.

I want to ask you one simple question regarding copyrights: can I copy 'dynastical' lineages from Wikipedia? For example this. Thanks, --Daniel Breslauer 08:14, 8 November 2007 (CST)

Well, what you see on Hasidic Judaism really belongs in a catalog. Articles are narratives, not lists of subtopics; on that, see CZ:Article Mechanics.

Please do help with recruitment--of course, Orthodox Jewish editors would be most welcome.

Re copying lineages, why not? But that, too, might (or might not) belong on a subpage. --Larry Sanger 08:18, 8 November 2007 (CST)

Thanks, I'm going to spend some more time learning the structure of Citizendium. It's different from Wikipedia and that makes it much more difficult. However, the increased use of subpages is very good. I'm going to quit for today, soon - work continues tomorrow. I see a great potential for Citizendium and intend to contribute as much as I can. Do you realize that being a good Citizendium editor might even be an important thing to list on your curriculum vitae when looking for a job? Just a little thing I just came up with. --Daniel Breslauer 08:33, 8 November 2007 (CST)

Thanks, Daniel, and welcome again! I doubt it's important now--but it very well could become important. --Larry Sanger 08:38, 8 November 2007 (CST)

More questions

Hey, Larry...thanks for your help with these various articles. I am going to add some content to Hatha Yoga Pradipika today, as well as some cross-reference bios on the translators of the modern text.

Also, I am going to do with the Martial arts article what I did with the Yoga article, which is break it down into a series of smaller articles. These guys are trying to write books! :)

I have a question about being an Editor. I put in a request for that status, but have heard nothing back. Is there something I'm missing...are Editors and Authors the same thing? Also, there seems to be some administrative responsibilities that can be assumed as an Editor. I wouldn't mind looking into that.

Finally, I am planning to add "Suggested translation" sections to some of the articles with which I am involved. Is linking to Amazon verbodden here, if that link is to a specific scholarly work?

Blessings...--Michael J. Formica 11:17, 8 November 2007 (CST)

Welcome, Michael. I welcome work on the martial arts article. It probably does include some listification that is best put elsewhere. The article need not be short, but it would be better viewed as a unitary narrative--of which parts of the article are now. What we don't want to do, in any case, is have a short article on an important high-level topic, that consists simply of links to articles about subtopics. I hope that makes sense.

Re editorship, please bear with us...there's a shameful backlog there.

Rather than linking to Amazon, find the ISBN number and just write "ISBN NNNNNNNNNN"--the software automatically creates a link. --Larry Sanger 11:24, 8 November 2007 (CST)

Please see my note about WP at Talk:Italian language - Ro Thorpe 17:12, 8 November 2007 (CST)

Shifting a workgroup assignment

Larry...I beleive that having Yoga under Hobbies is inappropriate. Can we at least get it moved to Sports, if not Religion? --Michael J. Formica 19:01, 8 November 2007 (CST)

I have no objection whatsoever--go ahead. I do vaguely remember some discussion of this, so you might look for that, but I don't remember what the outcome was. --Larry Sanger 19:04, 8 November 2007 (CST)

Excellent. How do I do that? I can't seem to figure it out. --Michael J. Formica 17:54, 9 November 2007 (CST)

Just fill in the appropriate workgroups on the Metadata template. I've cleaned up the rest for you. --Joe Quick 20:25, 9 November 2007 (CST)

DSM criteria - Know you're busy - READ THIS!!!

The APA has explicitly stated, to me directly with regard to the posting of categorical and diagnostic criteria on Wikipedia, that the practice of explicating DSM criteria without their written permission is a violation of copyright.

There are very few psych articles written. What's there is atrocious, quite frankly. That said, it would behoove us from the start, not to avail ourselves of the aforementioned practice before it becomes a legal issue. --Michael J. Formica 19:45, 10 November 2007 (CST)

If they demand that we get their permission, we'll do so. We want to stay in the good graces of professional organizations. You should put this on CZ:Psychology Workgroup as a (proposed) guideline. --Larry Sanger 20:01, 10 November 2007 (CST)

I am not a lawyer but am pretty well read on this sort of stuff, so if I may jump in here a moment. First, I very seriously doubt we can get permission, in this case. The APA keeps the DSM under pretty tight wraps - it is a nice money-maker for them.

The reason why the inclusion at WP is problematic and beyond fair use is that, when you have an article on every or nearly every entry that the DSM does, and you include the criteria for each, you have copied the entire contents of the DSM criteria to one site, even if dispersed across articles. Yikes!

On a CZ with an article corresponding to every DSM entry, CZ would effectively provide a replacement to the DSM, meaning the APA could probably very effectively argue against our use of it as fair, and could show economic harm stemming from CZ's complete or substantial reproduction of each DSM criteria across articles.

So what do you do?

1. What I would suggest is that a project-wide rule be created (unilaterally by Larry, frankly) that no more than 10% total of a work may exist on CZ pages without written permission. This 10% figure is a standard threshold figure offered by librarians, universities, etc., regarding fair use. Basically if you are quoting 10% or less of a work, and that 10% does not comprise "the heart" of the work, the use is very likely to be fair; but, the more you go above 10%, the less likely it is fair use. Applied, this means that across all CZ psych articles, no more than 10% will include the DSM criteria.
2. Monitor uses of works like the DSM. This should be a workgroup thing, it'd seem. This might be a good use for a category.
3. Use alternatives. For example, use the WHO's ICD, which is free online although copyrighted. Also, explicitly ask the WHO for permission to quote the entire contents of their psych entries. It's a great bet they'd say yes, I'd think.

Jumping out now. :-)

Stephen Ewen 20:48, 10 November 2007 (CST)

Stephen, stay jumped in. I could use your assistance.

To your point, you are correct. If you note my italics above, I'm the guy who ran point on trying to get permissions, or at least asking the question about permissions, for Wikipedia. The answer was a resounding 'No.'

I'll try to set this up, in all ways suggested. In the meantime, I will put together a Template that we can use under diagnostic criteria in the psych articles.

PS...Stephen, thanks for the inadvertant lesson on how to make numbered lists...very cool. :)

Blessings...--Michael J. Formica 08:21, 11 November 2007 (CST)

On the whole, I anticipate providers will say yes to CZ much more than WP; but, I don't expect the APA to say yes to anyone who wants to provide the world a free substitute for the DSM! Stephen Ewen 12:49, 11 November 2007 (CST)