Talk:Documentary hypothesis

Well

The page is gradually starting to take shape, slowly but surely. It still has a LOT of work to be done, in analyzing more of the alleged inconsistencies, and providing a section on criticism, as well as another possible section on support or level of support among scholars - I need to think through what else to include. This is a start that I need to work on; and am nowhere near finished, but it's got a basis now anyway. --Joshua Zambrano 00:52, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

I am making sure to source everything heavily as I go along, making the going slow, but it should be worth it. --Joshua Zambrano 00:52, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Virtually all of the "sources" are tendentious, sectarian organizations or publishers. By labeling certain claims "erroneous," the article would appear to fail to adhere to Citizendium's policy of neutrality and objectivity. A tract is not an encyclopedia article. Bruce M. Tindall 01:19, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Virtually all of those sources involve credentialed, scholarly research. You may dislike them because they don't provide the material you want, but the credentials for the authors are there. Ultimately, this is not a debate of scholarly vs. unscholarly, but of Biblically-supportive scholars and scholars critical of the Bible. You want to deny voice to those who support the Bible and would provide the alternative viewpoint by calling them 'sectarian' when those on the other side are just as much so. This is certainly better than the lone source that was provided for a much broader topic at the Authors of the Bible page.--Joshua Zambrano 05:23, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

And, on the definition page, to call the theory "un-evidenced" not only is in my opinion another violation of the objectivity policy, but also betrays a serious lack of understanding on the author's part of what constitutes scholarly evidence. I have therefore edited the definition to remove the word. If the author of this article denies that textual criticism has any scholarly validity, in the absence of an original copy of the P, J, etc., manuscripts, then I challenge him to produce an [i]original[/i] copy of Genesis written by the hand of Moses (preferably notarized by Aaron) to support the hypothesis he is attempting to impose on this CZ article. Bruce M. Tindall 02:39, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

That's because it is un-evidenced. There is zero hard documentary or archaeological evidence to show any of those documents ever existed. They all rely on the highly questionable interpretations of a select group of liberal, Biblically-critical scholars, and whose interpretations can often be shown readily false. Even IF there were inconsistencies, it would not lay claim to the corollary stated, that there were multiple authors. As such, there is zero evidence even if assuming the inconsistencies to be true - which they're not.

As for your challenge, I'll thank you to not try using the Strawman Fallacy on me, since A) I never objected to textual criticism, and B) this doesn't even deal with textual criticism overall, but what is known as higher criticism. You've got your terminology mixed up. --Joshua Zambrano 05:23, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

You are right that I shouldn't have used the word erroneous though. And even if it is un-evidenced, I shouldn't be putting that in the definition, you're right. I will avoid using such descriptors from now on. The theory annoys me, something I've stated, but I did let myself use terms like that I shouldn't have, without realizing it. I will be more careful from now on. I still stand by my sources though, which I think are perfectly suitable. I'll remove the term 'erroneously' from the article. --Joshua Zambrano 05:40, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Furthermore, please provide specific proposals for sources that you think should be included, and I'd be happy to reference them. I have a lot of sources I'm looking at right now, just trying to sort through all the information on this subject, and haven't yet put them in. Right now there's so much, I'm just trying to figure out how to organize it all. I knew when I started the project it would be a huge subject to tackle. --Joshua Zambrano 05:45, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

What makes it tough is that each one of these alleged inconsistencies is a subject in itself. Now, I could address each one of them easily enough by my own logic and reasoning, but as a former Wikipedian, I believe in trying to show where it is reliably sourced elsewhere, and thus must comb through research papers constantly to try and represent the views of both sides. And to do this on each statement made is tedious; trying to ascertain what the primary arguments for both sides are on each issue, as well as how to source them. --Joshua Zambrano 05:52, 14 March 2011 (UTC)--Joshua Zambrano 05:52, 14 March 2011 (UTC)