Forum Talk:Technical Issues/Archive 3

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Seeking shutdown team members, as well as forward planning members

Hi all. I'm proposing an official project end date of Sept. 30, 2020, after which Citizendium.org will stay online but will become a different collaboration space (to be determined). I picked that date out of the air, and if people want a shorter transition period, we might be able to do it. Who can help us to:

• Make a backup or dump of the wiki as it currently exists, available for download to anyone who wants it in the future?
• Look into archiving contents to the Internet Archive (?)
• Help advise current and past participants to copy or backup any material that they value, by the above date, or risk it going lost.
• Keep us all updated with progress on the landing page, so that "the public" (anyone dropping by) will understand what is happening.

I am also proposing a planning group on what will happen with the wiki going forwards. Who wants in on that?

I also propose (in contrast to Duncan's advice) that we continue accepting donations to support the server for now. Going forwards, as far as I'm concerned, anyone who wished to remain writing on Citizendium can do so as long as they adhere to the prevailing policies and are not disruptive. That is all subject to debate, but for now, I say keep the Donations on the front page, and at transition time, I propose that we keep any remaining funds and continue plowing them into support for the server going forwards. In support of this, I have made a substantial financial contribution this month to help keep the ship afloat until the shutdown phase for the "old project" is done.

Who can help with the shutdown of the "old project"? And who wants to be in on planning a next phase from the ground up? Please post here. I want to take the detailed work for both efforts offline here and into a private Google group.Pat Palmer (talk) 19:06, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

I will help in any way possible consistent with my position as Treasurer. And will support whatever the other Citizens decide to do. Just let me know what I can do in my official capacity. And, of course, I'm always ready to throw in my invaluable free advice! Hayford Peirce (talk) 20:05, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Count me in for Planning for the next phase as well as on advising current and past participants to copy or backup any material that they value--N Rajendra Raju (talk) 02:03, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

I continue to be interested, but am moving house shortly, which greatly reduces my availability for the foreseeable future. --Martin Wyatt (talk) 21:08, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Citizendium ownership change

Hi all,

A few different people have reached out to me recently about future directions with Citizendium. I appreciate that.

As you know, Citizendium stopped being "my" project a long time ago. But until this morning, I still owned the domain name.

This morning, I transferred ownership of all the Citizendium domain names to Pat Palmer, whom I know and trust and have worked with since the early days of Citizendium. She is not just a former computer science professor at Penn and a highly-sought-after computer consultant, she understands what has worked—and what hasn't worked—both with Wikipedia and the experiment that has been Citizendium. She knows all the old Citizendium folks well. She has a diplomatic and highly intelligent head on her shoulders. Maybe most importantly, she is highly motivated not to let CZ die. And from what I heard, she has sound, practical ideas about how to reinvigorate this project. If I can help that happen by getting out of the way, then I'm happy to do that.

We're not ready to make any big public announcements about this, but I wanted you on this group to know about this change of ownership. Pat will be the new legal owner of Citizendium as soon as the transfer is complete, and she has my support as this project's leader, as we make some important improvements.

--Larry Sanger (talk) 17:09, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Https back

We now have secure login and browsing back thanks to Joshua Sadule. http://en.citizendium.org should redirect to its https equivalent. Any problems can be noted here or on one of the Google Groups such as the non-member forum. John Stephenson (talk) 17:49, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks a million to Joshua for installing the SSL certificate, and to John S. for testing. Good job!Pat Palmer (talk) 17:52, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Comments

As to copying material to WP, this has been going on all along. Any WP editor can do it, whether or not they're a Citizen. I understand there's a way to search WP for articles acknowledging CZ as a source.

I agree wit Pat there are often problems with this.

1. much of our material is unsourced, as this was policy, since demoted to guideline but never formally repealed
2. some topics may not be notable
3. our criteria for original research are less strict
4. if you try doing it for anything controversial (politics, religion) you're liable to get into a fight with one faction or another

Peter Jackson (talk) 11:45, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

A related technical issue. If the site is put into Archive and someone then wants to copy something from it, there will usually be a legal requirement to link to the full history. I don't know about the technicalities of that. Peter Jackson (talk) 11:47, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

As to Pat's proposals, I've been happily contributing here and elsewhere for many years without payment, but I draw the line at vanity publishing. If that's the way it's got to be, include me out.

Is that how it's got to be? Pat's wording isn't explicit on whether those who pay the piper (Editors?) can authorize non-paying contributors (Authors?) If they can, they'd still make the decisions. Admit/expel Authors. Lay down policy. Impose topic bans like WP. Or the reverse: I think Scholarpedia invited non-member JW to write an article about WP.

Of course it's none of my business to tell others what to do with their money. Peter Jackson (talk) 11:54, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Peter, the discussion about how to proceed is ongoing but offline from the wiki right now. There is an invite to the advisory group on your Talk page. Please consider joining that group to make sure things don't go in a direction you would dislike.Pat Palmer (talk) 14:43, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

I may get round to jumping through the bureaucratic hoops when I've got more time. Peter Jackson (talk) 11:49, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Status report, end of July 2020

After all the discussions about possibly shutting down, we've formulated a plan to keep Citizendium running after all, and I want to give a brief status update, since a lot has been happening behind the scenes. During the past month, the server hardware was upgraded, resulting in a significantly faster wiki. As of August, monthly server costs will be less (~$75/month instead of ~99/month). The technical staff continue to plan vigorously for an eventual upgrade of outdated software, from the operating system and database right up to the MediaWiki software which drives the wiki, though we're not sure yet when to expect those upgrades because that move is very complex. The domains have been transferred to my name, and I have renewed them for another five years. Treasurer Hayford Peirce and I are working on transitioning the financial account from his personal bank into a Citizendium account. This is fairly complicated, is part way done, and will be complete (we hope) by the end of August. Hayford plans to continue as Treasurer, but he'll no longer need to use his personal bank account to manage it, and when you donate funds, you'll see it going to "Citizendium". The advisory group has had some offline discussions, and the plan, for now, is to continue patching and shoring up the servers and operations side of things, while informally seeking new users. We hope those of you who've written here in the past will return and do more work, and invite friends. At the point where the software can be brought up to date, we hope to conduct a major membership drive, with a modest initial goal of finding fifty active users. Why fifty? It's enough to support the servers, and a small enough number that people can get to know each other. The point is to provide not only a place for writing, but a place for community. Most policies will remain in place for now, although we're not averse to the idea of allowing multiple articles on a single topic in the future if this would allow people with different approaches to a topic to work in parallel without stifling each other's creativity. I will shortly archive the long (but useful) discussions above; they will still be easy to find via the archive table at the top of this page. Community comment is, as always, welcome.Pat Palmer (talk) 02:27, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

PS - I want to have a WriteAThon again, maybe some Saturday in August. Who remembers the WriteAThons? Who would try to "attend"?Pat Palmer (talk) 02:33, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

I remember! They were fun! Let's do it. Roger A. Lohmann (talk) 23:37, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

PS PS - Using Citizendium will still be "free". We'll ask for help financially, but won't require it.Pat Palmer (talk) 02:36, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

A few thoughts

1. We haven't actually got much in the way of policies right now, just CZ:Policies
2. On alternative articles, we've already got CZ:Signed Articles, which might serve as a starting point
3. Are you going to have a title? Larry was Editor-in-Chief, Daniel and Anthony were Managing Editors
4. You do realize people are liable to ask you to deal with any disputes that might arise?
5. You certainly seem to have got activity going (or is it just the prospect of imminent execution concentrating minds?

Peter Jackson (talk) 12:01, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Hi Peter! I hope you won't find it rude if I refrain from answering these questions until, or unless, I have to. Suffice it to say all those things have crossed my mind. Right now, I'm trying to prioritize operational needs while also making time to write a little in the wiki. I had forgotten how much fun writing can be (and how challenging). I'm grateful to everyone who is doing things, openly and behind the scenes, to keep Citizendium going; they are many, and you are one of them.Pat Palmer (talk) 16:18, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Asking for community input

Hi everyone,

In preparation for a future recruitment drive, I'm trying to clarify what Citizendium wants to be. I'm proposing some changes to the policy document. Please discuss. An election will need to be held in a few weeks on that (date to be announced).

Since The Citizendium no longer enforces what formerly was called Neutrality, I've added "We strive for objectivity.", a short personal essay of my own, to the lower right on the landing page. I hope it won't displease you.Pat Palmer (talk) 22:41, 18 August 2020 (UTC)