CZ:Managing Editor/2010/001 - Editors of their own user pages and subpages thereof

Description of problem

Are we still requiring a bio for authors? What does "editor of their own user page mean?" D. Matt Innis 15:03, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

We'd better be! Having said that, Article 8 suggests that users may do what they like with their own user pages as long as it's not abusive material. The use of 'editor' is confusing and muddies the author/editor difference. There is nothing about bios in the Charter either. That and Article 8 create a serious ambiguity which really needs a rule in place to avoid fallout problems. Take categories, for instance. There is nothing to stop an active user editing without them (as at least one contributor is doing at the moment). I always took removal of categories as an indication that the user had left, but that page only says that the departing user should not blank the page. John Stephenson 15:23, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

I suppose even editors cannot remove appropriate categories, right? They are also required to have bios on their user pages (though they are more extensive than authors'). I don't mind the ability to act as an editor on their own page. D. Matt Innis 15:46, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Formal restatement of problem

This section defines the section structure of the decision.

• What editorial rights do Citizens have in their own user space and in the user space of others?
  • Are Citizens required to maintain biographies?
  • Are Citizens allowed to modify the categories in which pages in their user space or in the user space of others are listed?

Existing applicable policy

Charter

• Article 8: Citizens shall be considered Editors of their own user pages and subpages thereof, as long as content is not inflammatory or derogatory.
• Article 2: Citizenship shall be open to anyone who fulfills the basic conditions for participation as defined by the Management Council—including registering according to the real names policy—and agrees to abide by this Charter.

Decisions by the governing bodies

None so far.

Pre-Charter policy

• CZ:User Pages states "All Citizens are required to maintain biographies on their userpages."
• CZ:Categories states "the only types of categories used to organize contents (besides a few purely technical ones) are those of the CZ:Workgroups that define the scope of editorial oversight for the CZ:Approval Process."

Draft decision

To allow community feedback, I plan to always state a draft of my decision at least 24h before actually making it. The text below is what I plan to decide in this case. Feel free to edit the text if you think this improves it. If your edits require discussion, please use the dedicated section below. Editing and discussion in this "Draft decision" section shall stop 24h after my last edit to it.

What editorial rights do Citizens have in their own user space and in the user space of others?

I interpret "Editors of their own user pages and subpages thereof" as meaning that while Editors can rule on matters of content and style within the scope of their Editorship, users can rule on matters of content and style within their own user pages and subpages thereof, provided that such ruling does neither

1. contravene any other part of the Charter (especially Articles 5 on civility and 23 on advocacy and advertisement) nor
2. interfere with the ability of other Citizens to manage content on the site according to the principles laid out by the Charter (e.g. Article 34, point 8 on managing technical matters).

Citizens do not generally have the right to edit pages in each other's user spaces without explicit permission. Exempted from this rule are purely technical edits as well as Constabulary action.

For further details, please see CZ:User pages.

Are Citizens required to maintain biographies?

Yes. Until the Management Council decides otherwise, biographies shall be considered to belong to the "basic requirements for participation" required by Article 2 of the Charter.

Are Citizens allowed to modify the categories in which pages in their user space or in the user space of others are listed?

Categories would clearly fall under technical matters and thus not be included in the matters that Citizens can rule upon in their user space.

Remarks

The principles outlined in this decision apply equally to newly registered, current and past participants, though leniency is advised when dealing with pages that have not been edited for some time.

--Daniel Mietchen 21:59, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Discussion of Draft decision

When reading or editing this section, please keep in mind that the current version of the draft decision might be different from the one referred to by previous commenters.

I am concerned about creating hard feelings when authors change someone else's user page. Obviously, if someone is an editor on their own page, they can change it back and ask that no-one change it again, but it seems a little intrusive. I'm not sure which the constabulary would be enforcing, the author being allowed to change it, or the user telling them not to. Perhaps you could outline under what circumstances an author can change another person's user page if necessary? D. Matt Innis 02:37, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

I do not see the Charter as conferring the right to edit others' User Pages at all. I think what was intended, and not properly worded, is that the sole author of his/her User Page is the owner, with intervention by CZ institutions as permitted by the Charter and associated regulations. This does not apply to the Talk page, which should be seen as a normal Talk page but with the owner acting as editor of it.

If this interpretation is accepted, I would urge the ME initially, and the MC at its own pace, to rule that we may not edit others' user pages without specific authority to do so (whether that be from the owner or from CZ regulations).

There should also be a ruling about a bio on the page, with some basic specifications of what is required at a minimum. These may have to be discussed, owing to the potential sensitivity of personal data. Although CZ requires real names, it does not require that personal details are made public...Martin Baldwin-Edwards 03:42, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree that article 8 does not allow others to edit a user page which is not their own, but rather that when others are allowed to edit the user page (as detailed by other policy) they are the Editor and can overrule those edits as long as they comply with CZ policy. I think that editing of user pages should be limited to the user and Constables unless specifically permitted by the user, at least until other policy is set up with specific details of when and why edits may be made.

This is not without precedent. For example, I am an Editor of World of Warcraft, but it is protected as per Citizendium policy. This means that although I am the Editor of that page, nobody can make edits to it except in line with specific rules and policies. --Chris Key 04:28, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback so far. Given that Article 8 can certainly be interpreted in other ways than the one I outlined above — you gave some examples — I shall err on the side of caution and go for making User pages editable by other users as per opt-in, not opt-out, with some leeway for official actions and possibly for edits at the level of typo correction. Not entirely sure yet how to phrase that out - suggestions welcome.

@Matt - typos would certainly be something that an expert-led project would have to watch out for even on user pages. In terms of what to enforce, the case is clear when the owner has ruled (yes, enforce the ruling), and I think the opt-in would make things clear otherwise.

@Martin - I gave a brief description of what should go into a biography on a user page. If more specifics are needed, we could turn this into a follow-up decision, to keep this one from getting oversized. I am also thinking of maintaining a version of the Charter with links to clarifications issued by the councils or the ME. Matter of time.

@Chris - there is no equivalent of Approval in user space, so the "Editor of" comparison would not apply there, I think. Anyway, changes that do not modify content are still possible (primarily typos) even for approved articles.

--Daniel Mietchen 22:07, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree that no one should edit another's user pages unless for official purposes, or when specifically allowed by the user. However, binding guidelines have to be followed -- as elsewhere on the wiki -- and may be enforced if necessary. In my view, typos or wrong grammar are not a problem and the claim to be "expert-guided" is not touched by them. (Talk pages are not free of them, either. Some sloppyness should be allowed here.)

As to the format of this decision: The decision should be brief and to the point, I think, and not contain the arguments leading to it. The reasoning is better given separately.

As to the location of this page: There should be some index pointing to these pages (probably best sorted by reverse date), either directly on the ME page, or on a page mentioned there.

--Peter Schmitt 02:01, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree with the last comment. I only found this page through Recent changes. Of course it takes time to organize everything, but all authoritative rulings by EC, MC, you & Gareth should be easy to find, and of course inviting community comments in a way that doesn't actually reach the community is self-defeating. Peter Jackson 12:02, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

User pages should ONLY be edited by the user UNLESS there is vandalism. If vandalism is found, then another Citizen could rollback the page to the last "good" version. Problems with user pages should be addressed by Constables or other Citizendium members of authority. A "regular" Citizen should contact a Constable, or a Citizendium member of authority, and then allow the Constable work with the Citizen involved. If Citizendium were to allow any and all users to point out perceived errors to another user this could lead to hard feelings. Also, new Citizendium users may not have the background knowledge to appropriately understand all the charter rules in place. Only a Constable or that equivalent, selected based on their knowledge of Citizendium, should be able to take appropriate action. Also, I do believe a biography should NOT be required on a user page based on security reasons. A contact email address so another registered Citizendium member could contact the user involved and request a resume or bio. And I hope I did this right. Mary Ash 18:40, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for these comments too - I think we are homing in.

@Peter Schmitt: In the interest of keeping this decision short and relevant information in a place where people might actually look for it, I have spelled out the details at CZ:User pages.

@both Peters where would you look for pending decisions if not via CZ:Managing Editor (from which Category:Managing Editor/Pending decisions is linked, which lists this page), via Recent Changes (where several dozens of edits made this page and CZ:User pages highly visible today) or the forums (where I started a dedicated thread on Saturday)?

@Mary I will uphold the requirement for basic bios. See CZ:User pages for details.

@all I currently have exempted purely technical edits from requiring permission. A sample scenario for that would be a restructuring of workgroups, which would mean restructuring categories and, consequently, editing many pages (including user pages) to have them display the correct categories.

--Daniel Mietchen 20:47, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

It is not clear to me what the following sentence:

Categories would clearly fall under technical matters and thus not be included in the matters that Citizens can rule upon in their user space.

is supposed to mean. Do you intend it to mean:

1. Citizens cannot decide which categories their userpages should have (i.e. cannot stop Constables from removing inappropriate tags)?
2. Citizens cannot, on their own, add new categories or remove irrelevant old ones?

Maybe it is clear to everyone else, but I would still like it clarified in the final decision. Johan A. Förberg 22:39, 2 November 2010 (UTC)