Talk:Biology/Archive 1

Dr. Sculerati--that's quite bold, to simply dive in and rewrite the thing from scratch. I like it!

However, there is one problem, that anyone (not just you) could help with. It is that there are many links from the original biology article that no longer exist. That doesn't necessarily mean that the pages linked-to are orphans, but what it does mean is that there is no longer such an easy way into those topics from the article. What I suggest, then, if we completely scrap an old article, is that we keep a list of old links at the bottom of the article, and make sure they are incorporated into the article as appropriate. (Of course, some links probably don't need to appear anywhere on the page at all. But the names of subdisciplines, yes.) --Larry Sanger 02:40, 1 November 2006 (CST)

Fields list

I'd like to comment, but I do not know how far developed you consider this to be. Your list of fields is partial, but is it more helpful to contribute more now or to wait until you have done s--in what will undoubtedly be a more systematic way?20:47, 2 November 2006 (CST)

Reply to above by Nancy

I think I finished the basic summary, though it sure needs polishing. I would like to see it remain short. I am currently working on History and Development of Biology section. This is likely to go on for a while, and likely to stay in Biology only in outline form with a touch of narrative and then get broken off and moved to its own article. My plan is to merge it what currently exists under that title, if I can. As I get to major figures in Biology, I have been reviewing and making CZ Live their biography articles. If you look at Anton Van Luuenhook, you'll see that I came up with a header Biography section that contains the names discussion, and a second header with place of birth, date of birth - death. I'd love for the text in those headers to be in a slightly but significantly smaller font. Back to Biology, I would so appreciate it if somebody would address Larry's concerns above. Would you be so kind as to add to Distinct Academic Disciplines within Biology (Partial List)? Unless you object, I'd appreciate keeping to the curent style- very brief and general description of each in plain language, including an internal link. P.S. who are you? regards, Nancy Sculerati MD 11:21, 3 November 2006 (CST)

It my have been me. But I agree that it is too early to decide on

what will be the useful links. Another qy about the links is whether they go only 1 link down, e.g. just to Zoology, or to Mammals. For a topic like this, it might be useful to have a page showing the hierarchy of articles, though you'd need several since they intersect--maybe we have someone is is good with 3D graphics? I'm going to try to do groups from different aspects in Zoology so I can see what works, but I'm going to put it in words first, before I do a single list. Probably will take till the 15th, because I'll be away most of the time till then.

A related question is whether there should be somewhere to put the "meet" of the topic--do we do little articles all the way down, or do we stop at e.g., Mammals, and do something more comprehensive. Perhaps we've more or less come to the conclusion that the top level is not the place, if only because the article would be too long.DavidGoodman 22:13, 5 November 2006 (CST)

Style

I have made quite a few edits and have a few points to address regarding those edits. First, what is citizendium planning on doing with respect to style issues? I noticed this page has already started drifting away from those established in wikipedia. Was that intentional? I have made some changes to the titles that conform to the MoS in wikipedia. I have also established a reference section at the bottom so citations can be added.

I add some content back, such as the classification section. I hope that is OK. Along those lines, I have also restored many of internal links that were lost during the initial reorganization. Maybe we do not want to discuss homeostasis or even link to it but we can see how the article develops with time.

With respect to the lists I am not sure which is the best way to go. For the topics have add all three possible routes in the one section, we need to decide the best way to present such information. Three possible choices include: 1) having a footer template and nothing in the article; 2) Having a comprehensive list in the article; or 3) having a narrative on the topics with a reference to a separately maintained list on a different page. Chris day 05:02, 7 November 2006 (CST)

Biology and philosophy

I moved the following paragraph from the introduction:

Biology asks some of same questions found in religion and philosophy, questions such as "How did life begin?", and "What features seperate something that is alive from something that is not alive?". The biologist approaches these questions using the scientific method. Therefore, the biologists answers to such questions differ from the answers found in philosophical and religious works. Whether scientific thinking about such great issues as the origin of life on earth is compatable with religious doctrine is itself a contentious issue. Some great thinkers, such as the physicist Albert Einstein, have found no real conflict on the varying teachings in science and religion, but consider Divinity and the Natural Universe to be one and the same (see Albert Einstein for detailed discussion with references).

This seems to be a little off track for the introduction but as the whole article is not currently layed out I cannot tell how it will relate to future content. To me it seems like material that should be in the body of the article itself. Also, biologists barely touch on the subject of "how did life begin", so it seems a little too much weight for an overview article (assuming you are planning to flesh this out in the main text). Chris day 13:38, 7 November 2006 (CST)

Chris, I find the paragraph on the philosophy of the biological approach, elegantly written. After all, what separates biology from intelligent design or religion? I am new to CZ so please forgive any lapses in protocol. What inspired Watson & Crick was an attempt to understand what constitutes life. So this is engaging, and inspiring to the reader. So just as where did the universe evolve from inspires the physicist, the understanding of what constitutes life is the ultimate question in Biology. As Feynman stated, I wonder why, I wonder why I wonder.

Biology asks some of same questions found in religion and philosophy, questions such as "How did life begin?", and "What features seperate something that is alive from something that is not alive?". The biologist approaches these questions using the scientific method. Therefore, the biologists answers to such questions differ from the answers found in philosophical and religious works. Whether scientific thinking about such great issues as the origin of life on earth is compatable with religious doctrine is itself a contentious issue. Some great thinkers, such as the physicist Albert Einstein, have found no real conflict on the varying teachings in science and religion, but consider Divinity and the Natural Universe to be one and the same (see Albert Einstein for detailed discussion with references). Arnold R. Rabin,MSEE,M.D. --Arnold Rabin 04:23, 8 November 2006 (CST)

My problem is that it romanticises biology into something it is not. Very few biologists ask "How did life begin?" or "What is life?" What they routinely ask is how does it work. Or with respect to watson and Crick what is the structure. I know this sounds boring but it is the reality of the work. Chris day 08:28, 8 November 2006 (CST)

Many do not subscribe to the idea that biology is boring. An analogy might be that computer science is boring because most programmers write code or algorithms to solve discrete problems. Much of it is mundane. However in the hierarchy of CS is Kurzweil, von Neumann. So when I look up computer science, it can read a) the study of the hardware and software used to solve problems that would take enormous amounts of time if done manually. b) the study and application of circuits and algorithms to engage in problem solving; the ultimate goal of which is to achieve a level of problem solving than is not possible by man alone. I understand your difficulty with "What is life?" in a practical sense. We certainly ask "What is life?", when looking at phage, DNA , RNA viruses and now Preons, we rethink what is life.

Chris, I agree that this is a matter of style. Can we be engaging without seeming to be unrealistic or trite. In fact, in my opinion, it is engaging writing that can set CZ apart. "I looked up --- the other day and was blown away by the elegance and incite of its editors. Since Larry's goal is to set CZ apart because of our expertise, these discussions are powerful. With editors with great expertise, this can be the most accurate and the most engaging and welcome source. Maybe we can get Larry Sanger's input on style as well as that of science editors. After all it is iteration that will make CZ a great reference. In addition, the author cites Einstein inaccurately. What Einstein implied was that the mystery of life or creation of the universe was not incompatible with belief in a higher entity, he did not subscribe to religious dogma. As an aside, Einstein also stated "God does not throw dice" when confronted with quantum theory. He was wrong.--Arnold Rabin 14:58, 8 November 2006 (CST)

I am definitely not implying that biology is boring. How a cell functions and reproduces itself is fascinating and mind boggingly (is that a word?) elegant. On the other hand we need to keep the intro based in reality. When biologist ask a question such as "What is life?" is it really any different to the philosphers? We are in awe at the biology but I don't think we are using the scientific method to specifically address that question. And if we are going to cite a physicist, I would have thought Erwin Schrodinger would be more appropriate. I will add, i am not trying to black ball this paragraph but I think it needs to be discussed and through collaboration it can be improved. Chris day 15:30, 8 November 2006 (CST)

I think articles should have a personality and be interestingly written. It's possible to have a neutral article that is written in a lively way. --Larry Sanger 15:43, 8 November 2006 (CST)

I agree with this sentiment, I just thought the way it was written was a little too much (just my opinion of course). While you here, is there a manual of style? I am noticing editors here changing the stardard style of wikipedia. An example would be capitalising all words in section titles. I have nothing against that style, however, since all these articles have been scrapped from wikipedia changing that style will entail changing every article to be consistent. Have you decided how to address this issue yet? Chris day 15:58, 8 November 2006 (CST)

After poking around a bit i found the following in the forums http://textop.org/smf/index.php?board=24.0

So from what i can gather there is no set style manual in place. Is that correct? Chris day 16:20, 8 November 2006 (CST)

Intro Changes

I am by no means a biology expert, but from a layout perspective, I feel like the etymology doesn't belong at the top of the page. I tossed it atop the history section, because it seems like it should be there. I feel like the intro should be something simpler, something completely straightforward and clear to everybody, and the "Biology is the science of life" paragraph does that perfectly. I also added the third sentence to fill it out a bit, and because I think it is worth noting that Biology is a major field of science. --ZachPruckowski 15:23, 8 November 2006 (CST)

Reply to Chris on Style and to comment on Einstein

Chris, I wrote the "romantic" text which is absolutely accurate, scientifically. We are not in the business of making prose sound conventional, it's truth we are after, and the clearer and more interesting the prose the better. Einstein is not inaccurately quoted. Yes, his remark about the statitical nature of quantum mechanics being unappealing in light of his idea of God is often referred to, but there is more. Click the link to the Einstein article. He clearly stated that he believed in "Spinoza's God", of the mechanism of the Universe. In other words, that the law3as of the universe ARE God. Nancy Sculerati MD 19:09, 8 November 2006 (CST)