User talk:Paul Wormer

Tasks: start a new article • add basic, wanted or requested articles • add definitions • add metadata • edit new pages

Welcome to the Citizendium! We hope you will contribute boldly and well. Here are pointers for a quick start, and see Getting Started for other helpful "startup" links, our help system and CZ:Home for the top menu of community pages. You can test out editing in the sandbox if you'd like. If you need help to get going, the forum is one option. That's also where we discuss policy and proposals. You can ask any user or the editors for help, too. Just put a note on their "talk" page. Again, welcome and have fun! Aleksander Stos 12:32, 16 August 2007 (CDT)

Paul Wormer

Current talk page

Archive 1, Archive 2

Scientific method

Hi Paul, please take a quick look at Scientific method and make sure you are satisfied with the changes since July 21 and we will be good to go. Thanks, D. Matt Innis 12:21, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Anthony.Sebastian approves 24-Jul-2009 version Scientific method

First class article. Anthony.Sebastian 17:22, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Are changes I made sandbox version 'chemical elements' okay

Paul,

I believe I responded to your suggested changes my sandbox version of 'chemical elements'. If you're okay with that version as a working version for continued collaborative development, please indicate so on: http://en.citizendium.org:8080/wiki/Talk:Chemical_elements#Lede_revised_in_response_to_Paul_and_Peter.

If Peter does the same, I will get Milton's okay to replace the current Main Article with it.

Thanks. Anthony.Sebastian 17:36, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I have enemies everywhere!

Thanks, Paul, I hadn't bothered to look at that place for a couple of month now. Wonder who these characters are and why they're so agin me? I musta been arrogant to the wrong person somewhere along the line, hehe.... Hayford Peirce 14:59, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

A riposte that may or may not amuse you.... [1] Hayford Peirce 05:17, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Article on Sturm-Liouville theory

Hello Paul,

Sometime back I proposed moving the WP article on Sturm-Liouville theory to CZ and adding a proof of the orthogonality of solutions with distinct eigenvalues. Since I am not an expert on S-L theory, I consulted with a collaborator who is knowledgeable about this topic and asked him if he would be willing to work on the WP article to improve it. After looking the article over, he said he had no suggestions for improving it, except perhaps by removing the reference to "the Arzela-Ascoli theorem and the spectral theory for compact operators." He thought this parenthetical comment was not in keeping with the direction of the rest of the article.

So, here is what I propose to do. I will move the WP S-L article to CZ, ticking the appropriate check-box indicating the WP source. If you agree, I will remove the reference to "the Arzela-Ascoli theorem and the spectral theory for compact operators." I will then create an addendum page on which to place the orthogonality proof and put a link in the main article to it. Let me know if this is an acceptable strategy. Dan Nessett 15:40, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

It sounds perfect. But please note that I'm not a mathematics editor, only an author. (I'm physics and chemistry editor). So, I'm interested in the stuff and know a little about it, but have no formal say in things mathematical.--Paul Wormer 16:10, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

OK. Should I contact a mathematics editor before proceeding? If so, do you know of one that might specialize in the area of this topic? Dan Nessett 17:14, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Excuse me for "butting in", but try Peter Schmitt who is a professor of mathematics in the University of Vienna and who is quite active in CZ. Milton Beychok 18:08, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll do that. Dan Nessett 18:39, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Dutch military history?

What would be a good name for a top-level article about Dutch military and naval history? I'm thinking here mostly for something to use as a parent topic in Related Articles pages, but filling out the Related Pages at the top level would be useful.

More modern events that could go under it include Cruiser#Battle of the Java Strait and Operation MARKET-GARDEN. The Dutch Marines have also done some impressive hostage rescues. Howard C. Berkowitz 00:21, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Howard, the Dutch do not have much of a military history. There is almost only the 17th century naval history. For instance, in Market Garden (not capitalized, I know your point of view but I can't bring myself to follow you) there were British, American and (oddly enough) Polish forces involved, no Dutch.--Paul Wormer 07:29, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Please comment on Earth's atmosphere

Paul, Earth's atmosphere is my first venture outside my field of expertise. I would appreciate any comments you may offer (on the article's Talk page). Milton Beychok 06:32, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Added acknowledgement to Earth's atmosphere about Equation 2 and Boltzmann distribution

Paul, I have added a footnote (reference 13) acknowledging that Equation 2 can be obtained from the Boltzmann distribution and linked it to the article you wrote on the Boltzmann distribution. Milton Beychok 16:53, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

About Barometric formula

Hi, Paul. I am not sure how your Barometric formula article would interfere with the Atmospheric lapse rate article I am writing. You can see my article in progress at User:Milton Beychok/Sandbox and judge for yourself. I am about 75% finished with it. I might even finish it today. As I said above, I am no expert on atmospheric science or meteorology ... I just thought the Earth's atmosphere and Atmospheric lapse rate articles were needed to fit in with my air pollution dispersion modeling articles ... so I wrote them. Milton Beychok 16:28, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Garnet

Thanks Paul!

I took a recent family trip down to Montana, Garnet was one of the places I got to visit and I was completely amazed by what I saw, it really left a lasting impression on me which compelled me to create/work on the Citizendium article. Thanks again! --Mehar Gill 17:52, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Atmospheric lapse rate finished and created

Hi, Paul. Atmospheric lapse rate has been created if you want to see it. I decided to name it "Atmospheric lapse rate" because there are so many different lapses ... lapsed insurance, memory lapses, lapsed into a coma, lapse of eligibility, etc., etc. ... and I didn't want to use "Lapse rate (atmospheric)". Milton Beychok 04:46, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

What do you think of the Universe article?

Paul, have you ever read the Universe article? What do you think of it? Milton Beychok 23:56, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I looked at it and see nothing wrong with it; but I don't know much about cosmology. It would probably need the hand of a professional cosmologist to bring it to an approvable state, but for a level 2 article (a little bit more than a stub) it seems acceptable to me. Why do you ask this, did you find any errors?--Paul Wormer 06:38, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

No, just curious. Milton Beychok 06:58, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Moving the Associated Legendre Functions article toward approved status

Hi Paul. I would like to get the work done that will allow us to move the Associated Legendre Functions article to approved status. I notice that you have reinserted the inline reference to Edmonds. So the first thing to sort out is what are the rules for citations. The Edmonds citation is now in both the main article and the Bibliography. Do we leave it twice cited? Should we remove it from the Bibliography and leave it in the main article? Should we remove it from the main article and add a footnote that says something like "see reference 1 in the Bibliography"? Or something else. The other issue I see is the dead link to "potential theory". Should we leave this alone or should one of us import the WP article to CZ? Dan Nessett 15:35, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I answered about the inline references on the forum. I feel that CZ cannot do without footnotes and that those must be easily accessible, hence on the main page. I don't mind that some references are cited twice. As long as there are no hundreds of duplicates, it is not important. I expressed my opinion about dead (red) links on the forum: leave them as they are, a red link will spur somebody someday to write the article. (For instance today I wrote Euclidean space because I noticed a red link).--Paul Wormer 15:58, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I have no strong opinions on the "where references should go" issue. I just want to get the article into shape for approval. Should I send a request to a mathematics editor to update the "ToApprove" metadata?

Update: I have left a message on Jitse Niesen's talk page asking him to move the article to "ToApprove" status.

Question: The approval process at CZ is pretty confusing. I just noticed there is a list of articles that someone has deemed ready for approval. Why there is such a list separate from the developed article list is beyond my powers of understanding. However, given it exists, I would like to add the Associated Legendre Functions article to that list. Do you have any objections? Dan Nessett 23:20, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I might (or WE might) have a 5,000-word developed article about, say, Bill Tilden, well-written and well-organized. If *that* isn't "developed", what is? BUT, it may not be ready for approval because it still lacks some major elements, there are controversies about some aspects of it, or some other reasons. And there may be a short article about Ray Casey that *is* ready for approval (at least in MY opinion, since I'm the one who placed it in that category) because it has all the qualities of the Tilden article BUT ALSO there is nothing more to say about the subject. It's done, finished. That's all, folks! So, at least in MY mind, there can be a clear distinction between "developed" and "ready for approval". Hayford Peirce 00:51, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Hayford. So, who decides that an article is both "developed" and "ready for approval"? Also, since Paul was the person who did most (>99%) of the work on the main article, I still seek his view on moving the article to the the "ready for approval" list. Dan Nessett 01:03, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Dan, CZ:Ready for approval contains this sentence: "Any user, author or editor, may add an article to the list below but an editor from the relevant workgroup(s) may remove an article if it is deemed unready for the attention of approving editors." That makes it very clear that you, or any other author or editor, can simply place Associated Legendre function in that list. I have done that with many of articles that I created ... but only when they have a Status of 1 (Developed) in their Metadata templates. Associated Legendre function has a Status of 1 in the Metadata template, so there is no reason why you or Paul cannot place it in CZ:Ready for approval. That doesn't guarantee it will be approved ... it just alerts editors that it is considered to be ready for approval. Also, even if it is subsequently nominated for approval by an editor or editors, another editor in the relevant workgroup(s) can object to the nomination or, indeed, stop the nomination process. Milton Beychok 03:17, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Milton. I realize that placing the article on the Ready for Approval list guarantees nothing. The article still has to go through review by the editor or editors. I just want to put it on the list so there is nothing on the author's side of the equation that is left undone. Since Paul wrote most of the article (I and a collaborator wrote most of the proof on the Proof's sub-page) I still would like to get Paul's view on the question. He is in a better position to determine whether the main article is ready or not. I would feel uncomfortable putting it on the list without his agreement. Dan Nessett 04:10, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Dan, I did not intend to leave the impression that you should leave Paul out of the loop. I was only trying to answer your question of: So, who decides that an article is both "developed" and "ready for approval"? In any event, it seems that all is clear now. Milton Beychok 08:33, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Paul. I am having trouble understanding why you haven't responded to my question whether you have any objections to adding the Associated Legendre Functions article to the "Ready for Approval" list. Do you think the article isn't ready for approval? If so, would you describe the problems that need to be solved so I can work on them? If you think it is ready for approval, would you either put it on the list or let me know and I will do that? Thanks. Dan Nessett 16:14, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Dan, there is not much that we can do, we have to wait until Jitse reacts.

Another thing, maybe you don't know that TeX and LaTeX traditionally have two modes for math: a display mode and an in-line mode. The non-Wiki TeX/LaTeX has different directives for this distinction. Most (longer) math formulas belong in display mode, which means that they are in an otherwise empty block of the screen, without text. Only very brief formulas ought to be in-line and only very small pieces of text appear in display mode. You do not separate the two modes, which to me is not very elegant. If you don't mind, I can format your proof page somewhat.--Paul Wormer 16:32, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely. Please fell free to format the formulas in the proof so their appearance is improved. Shall I add the article to the "ready for approval" list? Dan Nessett 16:52, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes you can do that. Tomorrow I will do the formating. Yet one more thing: we usually indent on talk pages until it gets out of hand, then we either start a new thread or write "unindent". This makes it easier for others to see who said what.--Paul Wormer 17:07, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Done. Dan Nessett 18:09, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Unless, of course, you belong to a fairly adamant minority who insist that there's some academic method of NOT using indents. The CZ rules aren't 100% clear about which is preferable, so I've given up insisting on the indention rules. Mostly.... Hayford Peirce 20:13, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

In regards to indentation style, I'm easy. I prefer an indent per Citizen, so the Citizen that begins the discussion is always non-indented, the first Citizen to reply is always indented by one, etc. That allows one to keep track of who is saying what. But, like I said I really have no hard preference. Dan Nessett 20:22, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Hayford, click on the Edit tab above and read the blue banner at the top. Seems to me thatit clearly spells out what CZ prefers ... and it was discussed thoroughly on the Forums before Chris Day created that banner. Milton Beychok 21:19, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

For pity's sake, Milton, I *know* what it says! And I *know* that we *almost* all agreed to it. BUT the CZ style manual, or guidelines, or whatnot *also* has some weasel words about the academic method -- which *some* people still insist on using. And still they still argue about it -- see Tom Morris, for instance. So even though *most* of us agree to use the indents, it's not 100%, mainly because the nice blue box at the top of the page is just something that some of us cobbled together -- it's not 100% official. So, as I've said, I've given up arguing with the absolutely adamant opponents about it. Hayford Peirce 21:49, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

[Unindent]

Paul. We are getting no response from Jitse. It appears Peter Schmitt is once again responding to CZ matters. Shall I ask him to review the article for approval? Dan Nessett 19:11, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Paul. I can't remember where you asked me if I could come up with a proof for the second orthogonality relation, so I am leaving this here. As I stated, I asked a former colleague (a theoretical physicist by training) if he would take a crack at it. I just received his response. He has company this weekend, but said he would give it a shot next week. Since he doesn't know and so far has no interest in learning mediawiki markup, anything he creates will be in MS Word. I will then have to translate it into MW markup. I will let you know if and when we have something. Dan Nessett 22:25, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Genethlialogy

I just asked my sister the astrology guru about this baloney and contrary to what she had told me months ago, she doesn't know anything about it. I have checked WP on this, and they have a *huge* article about it. Since none of us have any interest at all in it as far as I can tell, I suggest that we simply delete this one as being "unmaintainable". Since you're the author who originally created it and put in most of the content, you have the right, according to Matt the other Kop, to ask that it be deleted. If you formally ask me to delete it, therefore, I will....

Best, Hayford Peirce 18:33, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Sorry to butt in here, but something about the name Genethlialogy intrigued me. Not that I would argue against deleting the article as unmaintainable, but there appears to be material on this topic elsewhere. For example, the Encyclo On-line Encyclopedia has a definition (http://www.encyclo.co.uk/define/Genethlialogy) - casting (I assume a horoscope) for one newly born. The Encyclopedia Britannica appears to have information about it (although it appears to be a couple of sentences inside an article on another topic - Astrology?). Perhaps whatever has already been written about this topic could be merged into the Astrology article? Dan Nessett 22:45, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Sure, it could be merged if someone wanted to do it. What I was saying above is that this is a very short article written by people who have no real interest in it, or knowledge, and that, given its length, there's no particular reason to keep it. Hayford Peirce 06:09, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Hayford, you always say that you are an inclusionist, why would you delete the article? It gives some correct info, doesn't it? When I met the word (in a book by E.J. Dijksterhuis that has been translated into English, German, and French; Dijksterhuis uses the term on p. 170 of the Dutch edition in a chapter on astrology in the medieval Islamic culture) I did not know what genethlialogy meant. The article gives enough info to read Dijksterhuis' chapter. And what is there to maintain, are there any developments in the field? If there are any, I don't think that we fail terribly if we do not immediately report on them.--Paul Wormer 08:00, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi, Paul, sorry, I didn't see your comment until just now. As you say, I *am* an inclusionist. I thought that you were the person who originally said it might be deleted.... In any case, the reason I thought this *might* be deleted is that it's such a barebones article as compared to the *very* lengthy WP article -- it gives so little information that I thought it looked bad by comparison. If we had a couple of Howards working on it fulltime, my opinion would be different but its existence seems to be met by total ennui. On the other hand, an astrology *may* come along tomorrow and want to expand it, so let's let it stand! Hayford Peirce 20:22, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Suggested revision of lead-in sentence for Clausius-Clapeyron relation

Paul, please take a look the Talk page of the Clausius-Clapeyron relation article. Milton Beychok 15:54, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Natural gas

Hi, Paul, just want to let you know that I have started work on Natural Gas as promised. After I ported it from WP:

• I deleted sections I thought just did not belong in the article such as the sections on biogas, town gas and gas pricing (which changes almost on a daily basis).
• I added new sections on gas composition, geological formation, exploration for new gas reservoirs and extraction (i.e., drilling and production)... all of which were not included in the WP article.
• I extracted parts of the WP article and reassembled them into a new section on "Measurement units and heating values".
• I completely reformatted the order of the various new and existing sections in what I think is a more logical sequence.
• Whenever I see something I don't understand because of my limited knowledge of gas exploration and extraction or that I cannot independently verify, I delete it rather than take any chances that it might be incorrect. Some experienced petroleuom geologist may come along sooner or later and add more content that he/she feels is needed.

I would estimate that I am now about 50% complete. I still have 2-3 excessively lengthy sections of the WP article that I want to trim down drastically. I also have quite a bit of rewording in mind as well.

When I have it ready to load into the article mainspace, I will contact you to see if you want to review and comment on it before I load it as a new article. Milton Beychok 00:41, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

This is how to create ℓ

Paul, I created this ℓ by using this HTML character entity: & #8467;   (but without the space between & and #). Milton Beychok 07:55, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes Milt, I discovered that too in the meantime. But the question is: how to get the symbol directly, without HTML code. If you look into the source of this message you see ℓ and no code. --Paul Wormer 08:08, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

PS By copy paste of the representation of & #8467; (without space) I got ℓ. Thus, a bootstrapping procedure is possible, create the symbol once by the code, then preview and copy paste it. That is probably how the guy at WP does it. --Paul Wormer 08:15, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand. Why copy and paste?? Why not just enter the HTML code each time on the edit page? It won't show on the article page, which is what is important ... is it not? When would you want to get it directly? I have a sandbox that I call my storage box where I keep a lot of links and other stuff I want to be able to use at any time. I guess I could create this character and keep it there ... but retrieving it would take more time than just using the HTML code. Milton Beychok 08:28, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Because your source looks better. Compare ℓ(ℓ+1)ℏ² with ℓ(ℓ+1)ℏ². (Look at the source, not at the output!). --Paul Wormer 08:44, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Okay, now I understand what you wanted. Milton Beychok 19:19, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Natural gas article

Paul, I have completed the Natural gas article (in my sandbox)). If you want to review and suggest changes, I will wait a few days to hear from you before I move it into the main article namespace. My sandbox is at User:Milton_Beychok/Sandbox. Regards, Milton Beychok 22:18, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

About your review of the "Natural gas" article in my sandbox

Many thanks, Paul. I re-worded your first item. As for your second item, I don't know how that discussion of retrograde condensation got repeated. I just deleted it entirely from the natural gas reserves section.

When I load it into the namespace, I will list Engineering and Chemistry as the workgroup categories. I will do that after I get comments that I asked for from a new Engineering editor named Karl D. Schubert.

Milton Beychok 16:09, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Paul, I went ahead and moved Natural gas into the article namespace. I've notifed Karl D. Schubert where to find it. Milton Beychok 00:25, 23 September 2009 (UTC)