Talk:Complex number/Draft

Article Checklist for "Complex number/Draft"

Workgroup category or categories	Mathematics Workgroup [Categories OK]
Article status	Developed article: complete or nearly so
Underlinked article?	No
Basic cleanup done?	Yes
Checklist last edited by	Greg Woodhouse 19:26, 11 April 2007 (CDT)

To learn how to fill out this checklist, please see CZ:The Article Checklist.

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Definition

I reworked the text a bit. So this is why.

• I think Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle \sqrt{-1}} is an objectionable notation...
• The definition hardly matches my understanding... The imaginary unit can be really understood only within the field of complex numbers (defined independently). Otherwise, what is "i"? A square root of (-1)? Then which one? (there are usually two square roots; BTW, have you ever seen an independent definition of a square root of a negative number?). So let's define it by "i^2=1". Then, does it exist? Does it deserve to be called a number? (operations are possible?) The same question arise if we define "i" as a solution of "x^2+1=0". In practice we can use any of these well known properties, but how can we understand it as a definition?

At best, we can say "i" is "just a formal symbol" with no meaning. We define some operations on formal sums "a+bi". Basically, that's OK. The point is that it explains nothing and it can be done in a more elegant way, where we really define all is needed in terms of elementary well-known objects:

Complex numbers are just ordered pairs of reals -as simple as this - with appropriate addition and multiplication. BTW, these operations are enlisted in the article with the "formal" use of "i". Then i=(0,1). And for computational convenience we discover that i^2=-1, and use it.

I think your revision is a good one. I had considered using the term "formal expression" for Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle a + bi} , but decided not to. But, in truth, I didn't spend a great deal of time on this. It just seemed an obvious omission, giving that there was already an article on real numbers! A possible revision/addition I had considered was adding a section on how the definition can be formalized by saying Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle \mathbb{C}} is the splitting field of Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle x^2 + 1} over Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle \mathbb{R}} . Without context, though, that seems like a bit of overkill. Of course, it's formally the same as the definition of algebraic number fields such as Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle \mathbb{Q}[\sqrt{-1}]} or Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle \mathbb{Q}[\sqrt{2}]} . But I suppose that's a topic for another article. Greg Woodhouse 06:21, 2 April 2007 (CDT)

The bottom line is that I do not object use of "i" in the informal intro, just to give an outline of the idea, there must be, however, a definition that really explains where it logically comes from. --AlekStos 03:01, 2 April 2007 (CDT)

Call me tempramental, but I reworked the opening paragraph a bit. I hope it hasn't changed substantively, but I think the new text flows a bit better with the rest of the article. Greg Woodhouse 16:27, 3 April 2007 (CDT)

sketch of a plan

The status of the Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle \sqrt{-1}} notation seems to vary according to different cultures. In French high schools and colleges, it tends to be a taboo, because of the objections pointed out by Alek Stos here. I have heard its usage is far more common in English speaking countries. The problem is that there is a canonical way to choose which square root of a positive real number Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle x} we call Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle \sqrt{x}} (the positive one), but there is not such a canonical way to choose amongst the two square roots of -1. Once Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle \mathbb{C}} is defined, one can choose some convention, but still a determination of the square root over the complex plane cannot be continuous everywhere. On the other hand, using Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle \sqrt{-1}} in an informal way just because it is easy to understand what is meant by it can be defended, as soon as one is warned of not considering it as anything else but a mere notation. As Greg Woodhouse recalls to us, this notation is quite common for algebraic number theory specialists, to denote some quadratic fields. I still think it is a bit dangerous to use it without comment for beginner readers.

Now I come to a (somewhat vague) suggestion of structure for the article. I like to introduce complex numbers to my students with the example of the resolution of the cubic equation Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle x^3=15x+4} with the so called Gerolamo Cardano's method (in fact it is due to Scipione del Ferro and Niccolò Tartaglia). Computations are quite easy, and the striking fact is that during them, one has to use some imaginary number which square would be -1, but once the computations are finished, one gets the three real solutions of the equation! At this stage, one can denote the mysterious number by Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle \sqrt{-1}} , as we make anyway only purely formal calculations without giving any legitimate sense to them. They just suggest there might be something which square is -1.

Next we need a model to legitimate this mysterious number, and then, Alek Stos's suggestion is best : considering that Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle \mathbb{C}} is Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle \mathbb{R}^2} with appropriate addition and multiplication laws is the more elementary way to construct complex numbers. Here we can introduce the "i" notation. Moreover, this allows to have a geometric representation of those counterintuitive numbers, with the complex plane. It is still possible to link this with history : the geometrical viewpoint is due to Robert Argand, and the complete construction was achieved by the great Carl Friedrich Gauss. This section may not only show how complex numbers can be illustrated by geometry, but show too how, reversely, plane geometrical problems can be solved with the power of calculation with complex numbers.

Then, another section may deal with a more abstract point of view, that is Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle \mathbb{C}=\mathbb{R}[X]/\left(X^2+1\right)} , and more generally, introduce the notions of splitting fields, algebraic closure and so on: thats seems to be Greg Woodhouse's idea. Only an introduction, but it has a legitimate place in our article I think.

Finally, some applications of complex numbers must be cited : a few words about complex analysis and holomorphic functions, etc. Separate articles are needed for the details of course. It also may be emphasized in the applications part than those seemingly purely abstract numbers are very useful in physics.

What I like in this sketch of plan for this article is that it begins with a simple, intuitive but not properly formalized idea to end with more precise and more subtle aspects of the theory. Also, I think it is important in this article to stress the historical evolution of the ontological view of complex numbers (how they were little by little accepted from mere calculation artifices to true numbers). Please let me know your opinion. If you think it is a good idea, I can write the cubic equation part quite soon. But if you have better ideas, please share them!

--Sébastien Moulin (talk me) 11:21, 2 April 2007 (CDT)

I guess I like the idea! --AlekStos 14:52, 2 April 2007 (CDT)

That seems like an excellent suggestion. Of course, I am hardly qualified to write about the history of the use of complex numbers in mathematics. Writing about applications is a little easier, but it is somewhat difficult to come up with examples that are simultaneously convincing and accessible. Obvious examples of the use of complex numbers include Cauchy's theorem, properties of the Riemann zeta function, Hilbert spaces, quantum mechanics, none of which can be introduced to a non-specialist audience without some preparation. Greg Woodhouse 19:34, 2 April 2007 (CDT)

I just added an aside on mathematical notation that I hope will address some of the concerns raised here. Greg Woodhouse 23:07, 2 April 2007 (CDT)

You made good work. I wrote the introductory example about the equation Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle x^3=15x+4} . I do not know how well it fits with the other sections. Anyway, do not hesitate to modify my text to make it clearer if you like. --Sébastien Moulin (talk me) 11:15, 4 April 2007 (CDT)

I think that example is superb! I did rework the English a bit (I hope you don't mind). I also took th liberty (and I hope this wasn't the wrong thing to do) of changing X to x. I understand the distinction you are making here, but I don't know if it's really necessary to introduce another symbol here. Greg Woodhouse 11:34, 4 April 2007 (CDT)

Entertainingly written, good job so far --Larry Sanger 11:38, 4 April 2007 (CDT)

Thank you for those compliments and thanks to Greg Woodhouse for rewriting my awkward English. I agree the X/x distinction was too heavy here and made things harder to understand. --Sébastien Moulin (talk me) 11:41, 4 April 2007 (CDT)

Closing the loop (pun intended)

It's just not right to talk about analytic functions without bringing in integration, too. Besides, Cauchy's theorem and Cauchy's integral formula lie at the heart of the reason complex variables are so pervasive in mathematics. Some discussion just had to be included (in my opinion). Greg Woodhouse 14:38, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

Developing or Developed?

This article seems pretty much fleshed out, is it ready to be moved to status 1, or does it need more editing? Also, I'm unfamiliar with the procedure or protocol for advancing an article to this stage. Is there a standard method (such as a template) to request that it be done? Greg Woodhouse 14:41, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

The procedure to advance an article: edit the checklist above according to your liking :-) More seriously, I guess anyone can "asses" the article's level. Generally, if you find that the article more or less covers its scope (as you see it), then why not move it to status 1. In the particular case of 'complex number', I'd not object. Still, I think it needs some further work (I'll try to add my $0.02 too). --AlekStos 11:53, 11 April 2007 (CDT)

Comments in footnotes

I think the use of footnotes is preferable to the "sidebar" comments I used originally. Greg Woodhouse 15:11, 11 April 2007 (CDT)

What now?

It seems to me like we've pretty much covered Sébastien Moulin's proposed outline. What's the next step? Greg Woodhouse 11:53, 4 April 2007 (CDT)

OK, my $0.02. The formal definition could be developed in more details. In fact, the meaning of i is not explained in elementary terms so far; the use of it is not justified. And now for the overall structure. Sebastien Moulin in his excellent plan proposed to do this (i.e. formal definition) after the historical motivation and I do agree it is a good place. A basic geometrical interpretation could fit as the next element, since we still talk about the pairs of reals. Then, probably a discussion of notation "(a,b) versus a+bi" could be invoked to smoothly pass to "working with complex numbers" section (now I have impression that the notational/formal problems overload the leading section).

As for the scope, I guess the most important things are already presented (and yes, why not move article to status 1). I'd like to see however some more basic notions explicitly defined. I mean e.g. the trigonometric form of complex numbers (i.e. z=r(cos x + i sin x)). And what about introducing the notion of complex roots, i.e. the set of solutions to Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle z^n=a,\quad a\in \mathbb{C}} . It fits perfectly in the "algebraic closure" section. After all, wasn't it (one of) the main motivation(s) for having complex numbers? BTW, I'd prefer to talk about algebraic closure before passing to analysis, which is something of different flavor.

If you find something of the above logical, I could try to work further on the text. Of course, comments, remarks and collaborators more than welcome. --AlekStos 16:16, 11 April 2007 (CDT)

Yes, I think your suggestions are reasonable. The reason the section on algebraic closure ended up where it was is that I was trying to follow the approach of placing material in orde of increasing complexity (and, at the time, I expected the article to be quite a bit shorter). I hadn't originally planned to talk about complex analysis at all (except in passing, when discussing algebraic closure), but included a broad overview of complex analysis (with the obvious exception of Laurent series, a topic that was probably missed out of author fatigue as much as anything) based on reviewer comments. I don't object to writing out the field operations explicitly in terms of ordered pairs if you really think it's important to do so. Oh, and not talking about roots of unity (Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle z^n = 1} ) is just an oversight on my part, and the reason there are no graphics accompanying the section on the geometric interpretation of complex numbers is just that I'm terrible at that sort of thing. Greg Woodhouse 19:25, 11 April 2007 (CDT)

OK, let's go then. I'll add (and maybe reshuffle) some text, and I beg you to copy edit. If I try to put some images do not hesitate to express any critical remarks, since I'm not terrible at that either. BTW, I do not think that the formal operations on pairs are important or should be promoted (actually, i is introduced to avoid this). I just want to have somewhere a complete formal definition, just a math bias :-). --AlekStos 03:08, 12 April 2007 (CDT)

Extension and slight reorganization began... Meanwhile, I realized that we need also

• perhaps a minor remark on equality of two complex numbers
• a few words describing the 'meaning' of complex numbers in math and applications. Perhaps something like this: "In math the role of complex numbers is fundamental in as the basic object for complex analysis and a powerful tool elsewhere. In applications, although nothing real corresponds directly to \mathbb{C}, complex numbers are very important tool that allows us to perform a formal manipulation at end of which we arrive at useful conclusions concerning physical quantities". Well, as it stands it is an oversimplification to be refined; now just a note for future reference. --AlekStos 07:26, 12 April 2007 (CDT)

Complex numbers in physics

I suppose the most obvious example of an area in physics where complex numbers seem ragther fundamental is in quantum mechanics, where it is actually quite crucial that the wave functions are complex valued and not merely real valued. I've actually been thinking about heuristic arguments for motivating the Schrödinger equation and, in particular, why Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle \psi} must be a complex function, but I don't want to go to far afield, either. In my opinion, it's possible to go overboard when arguing that complex quantities are not really fundamental. In fact, I'm not so sure I even agree that they are not. Greg Woodhouse 22:58, 16 April 2007 (CDT)

It would be great to insert a hint why wave functions are complex! I already mentioned that the article should not only state the basic definitions and some "how to", but also, "why" and "what for". Perhaps the latter is even more important than the former, according to the spirit of CZ:Article Mechanics. On the other hand, the article should be kept reasonably long and of limited scope, so perhaps an extensive chapter on quantum mechanics does not belong in.

Your suggestion "I'm not so sure I even agree that they are not" can be interpreted as disagreement with my claim that in applications \mathbb{C} is just a tool that is 'unreal' :-) If so, I do not object making complex numbers 'fundamental' here and there (and I've never said it is _only_ a tool). Of course, 'fundamentality' should not go unexplained and your quantum mechanics example fits perfectly here. --AlekStos 02:59, 17 April 2007 (CDT)

Well, in a naïve way, there is the obvious fact that Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle e^{it}} is an eigenfunction of a complex operator but not a real one, and eigenstates are the only thing we can "observe". There is, of course, the formal similarity of the Schrödinger equatiion to the ordinary wave equation and other hints, but I want to keep the article focused, too (though that's hardly apparent from what I've written so far!) When you get right down to it, I think i do have something of a distaste for worrying overmuch about the ontological status of complex numbers. They are mathematical abstractions, but so are real numbers, and integerers, too. Greg Woodhouse 07:09, 17 April 2007 (CDT)

New section

Well, I've added a little section on complex numbers in quantum mechanics (a topic I think really has to be included in an article on complex numbers). This was all pretty much off the top of my head while I sit here listening to the Science Channel. Greg Woodhouse 23:19, 17 April 2007 (CDT)

Request for approval

Editors: Could you take a look at this article and, if you think it's ready, initiate the approval process? Greg Woodhouse 13:24, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

Comments

I'm not an editor, but: excellent article! I particularly like the cubic equation used as a motivation for defining the complex numbers. In general, I like the motivation and enthusiasm throughout the article.

Thank you. The historical motivation (cubic equations) was contributed by Sebastién Moulin, and is most appreciated. Greg Woodhouse 21:02, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

Would it be OK if I go through the article putting html math tags around all the little math formulas, e.g. changing a + bi to Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle a + bi} ?

Please do. Greg Woodhouse 21:02, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

I added some math html tags near the beginning of the article. I also added "scriptstyle" — I'm not sure if that's a good idea or not. On my browser, with "scriptstyle" or "textstyle" the math symbols come out too big, but without them they come out too small. Anyway, I think it's good to put the math tags because they're meaningful -- better software might display the same text better if it's marked as being math. --Catherine Woodgold 19:05, 24 April 2007 (CDT)

This is a difficult matter because it depends a lot on the browser. However, scriptstyle should go before the formula. The main possibilities that I see are

1. no math tags, e.g., of the form a+bi obtained by which renders as

   … of the form a+bi obtained by …

2. emulate maths formatting in HTML, e.g., of the form ''a'' + ''bi'' obtained by which renders as

   … of the form a + bi obtained by …

3. use math tags, e.g., of the form <math>a+bi</math> obtained by which renders as

   … of the form Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle a+bi} obtained by …

4. use math tags and textstyle, e.g., of the form <math>\textstyle a+bi</math> obtained by which renders as

   … of the form Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle \textstyle a+bi} obtained by …

5. use math tags and scriptstyle, e.g., of the form <math>\scriptstyle a+bi</math> obtained by which renders as

   … of the form Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle \scriptstyle a+bi} obtained by …

Options 1 and 2 are not always possible. For instance, Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle x_1^2} cannot be displayed in HTML; the best you can do is x₁². Option 3 roughly amounts to choosing option 2 if the formula can be displayed in HTML and option 4 otherwise, but the software behind it needs some fine-tuning. Option 5 is similar to option 4 except that the symbols come out smaller. -- Jitse Niesen 21:08, 24 April 2007 (CDT)

Here are some suggestions for minor changes. I'm not putting them in directly at the moment because I see there's a possible approval process going on so I thought I'd better get opinions first.

In the second sentence, 1st paragraph of "Historical example": "This is so even for equations with three real solutions, as the method they used sometimes requires calculations with numbers which squares are negative. " To me, the phrase "this is so" lacks an antecedent; I'm wondering "what is so?". So I suggest changing it to "This need is present even for..." or "Even for equations with three real solutions, the method they used..." Also, near the end of the sentence, "which" doesn't seem to quite fit in grammatically. I would change it to "...numbers whose squares are negative" or "numbers of which the squares are negative".

A few lines later in the "Historical example" section, a minor point: I think it would sound better to put a comma after "that is" in "Now we choose the second condition on u and v, that is 3uv − 15 = 0, or uv = 5.", or to change "that is" to "as" or to change it to "Now we choose 3uv − 15 = 0, or uv = 5 as the second condition on u and v."

A little further down: It says "...the usual formulae giving the solutions require to take the square root of the discriminant," Well, in my dialect, the words "require to take" wouldn't appear. I would tend to change it to "require taking". But maybe it's grammatically correct in another dialect.

A little further: "denotes an hypothetical number which square would be − 1" Again, I would change this to "whose square" or "of which the square".

"square of real numbers are always nonnegative" Here, "square" should be plural.

In the two lines of equations after values for u and v are selected, the left-hand-sides are the same in both. I would prefer to delete the left-hand-side of the second line and begin it with an equals sign to show it as a continuation of the calculation from the previous line. Otherwise, if the reader isn't careful with details it looks like two different calculations, one for u and one for v.

At the beginning of the section "Formal definition" it says "Formally, complex numbers are ordered pairs of real numbers." I think this is not the only way to define complex numbers. I think they could be defined as polynomials, or as points on a plane, or probably in a number of other ways. (For example, a possible, though awkward and probably not useful, definition would be to define them as sets each of which contain three elements: two real numbers and another set which is either the null set or the set containing zero; I believe this definition could be used just as formally, though requiring more effort.) So I would prefer to change this to "Formally, complex numbers can be defined as ordered pairs of real numbers." Even better: if this is the way Gauss defined them, I would like to see something like "Complex numbers were defined formally by Gauss as ordered pairs of real numbers." I would like to see Gauss mentioned in the formal definition section, or else at the end of the previous section, to the end of the last sentence, "A rigorous construction of this set was given much later by Carl Friedrich Gauss in 1831.", tack on "...which is described in the next section." Or something, to let the reader know the historical context of the material which "we" understand in the formal definition section. Otherwise, the reader doesn't know whether Gauss defined them a different way.

I like your suggestion here. The matter of how to define the complex numbers was actually a point of contention here, and so what you see is kind of an "nth iteration", and I certainly appreciate a fresh perspective here. Greg Woodhouse 21:02, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

Thanks. So, is that the way Gauss defined them? --Catherine Woodgold 18:53, 23 April 2007 (CDT)

I don't know just how Gauss defined them. Maybe someone knowing more about the history of mathematics can answer that one. Greg Woodhouse 23:42, 23 April 2007 (CDT)

According to Burton's History of Mathematics, the definition of complex numbers as pairs of real numbers is due to Hamilton. I added this to the article. Aside: the approval process hasn't started (this needs the involvement of an editor), and my impression is that even during the process copyediting can be done freely, so I feel no qualms about changing the article, and I also urge Catherine (and others) to work on it.

I've no idea what Gauss did in 1831. Perhaps whoever wrote this can clarify? -- Jitse Niesen 02:08, 24 April 2007 (CDT)

Reading the forums, I see that Catherine has a much better idea of what the approval process entails. -- Jitse Niesen 21:41, 24 April 2007 (CDT)

Thank you, but it was certainly not my intention to set a new fashion of not making any copyediting changes (or content changes?) during an approval process. I was likely overly cautious here in not making some of these changes directly without discussion. People need to develop a balance between "be bold" and "don't be too bold". The details of the approval process have not been worked out yet. --Catherine Woodgold 08:00, 25 April 2007 (CDT)

At the end of the first paragraph of "Beyond the notation" it says "...and we discuss it in more details." I would change "details" to the singular form "detail" because that's the way this idiom is usually used.

2nd paragraph of "Beyond the notation" section: "There is a well established tradition in mathematics..." I would hyphenate "well-established", following the rule that multi-word phrases are usually hyphenated when used as adjectives.

Later in that section, in the part about modular arithmetic, around where it says "And by the same token," I didn't follow the reasoning at first. I didn't see the connection between the polynomial example and the imaginary-number example until I'd studied it for a while. Suggestions to help other readers there: Use numbers that aren't quite so simple, so the analogy is more obvious; e.g. use (5x + 2)(3x + 1) instead of (x + 1)(x + 2); and/or state that the order of the numbers is reversed, and/or say "5x + 2 is analogous to 2 + 5i", or reverse the order in the polynomials, i.e. (2 + 5x)(1 + 3x); and/or say "analogously" instead of "by the same token"; and/or say "where the modulus is Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle 1 + i^2} " or "modulo Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle 1 + i^2} ".

End of first paragraph of "geometric interpretation": "both ... but also" doesn't sound right to me. I would delete "both" or change "but" to "and".

" Translation corresponds, to complex addition" I really like this section, about how the operations are interpreted geometrically; there's a lot of energy and excitement here. I would just delete the one comma after "corresponds".

"Algebraic closure" section: My dictionary defines "holomorphic" as "having a derivative at each point in its domain". I suggest putting this in parentheses after the word.

"But, by the triangle inequality, we know that outside a neighborhood of the origin..." OK, maybe I should have understood this. But I didn't. I was imagining a small neighbourhood of the origin. It would be clearer if it said "there exists a neighbourhood of the origin such that outside that neighbourhood..." Possibly it would be an improvement if it said "some neighbourhood" rather than "a neighbourhood".

I can't follow the second paragraph of "Algebraic closure". Maybe if it were explained to me I could help modify it to be a little more easily understandable by others? I suggest after "is the splitting field of Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle x^2 + 1} , " inserting "(i.e. the set of polynomials with real coefficients modulo Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle x^2 + 1} )", if that's correct. " so if we can show that \mathbb{C} has no finite extensions, then we are done." I wonder what a finite extension is, and why we would be done if we knew that? "Suppose Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle K/\mathbb{C}} is a finite normal extension" I don't understand the notation "Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle K/\mathbb{C}} ". "...with Galois group G." OK, maybe here I should just give up until another Citizendium page is done explaining what a Galois group is. "A Sylow 2-subgroup H must correspond to an intermediate field L," Hmm. Does this mean there must exist a Sylow 2-subgroup with those properties, or does it mean all Sylow 2-subgroups will have those properties? (Again, I guess I'll wait until there's a page explaining what a Sylow 2-subgroup is, but I should be able to at least follow the there-exists part of the language.) "such that L is an extension of Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle \mathbb{R}} of odd degree," Is it clear here that "extension" means a field, not just a multidimensional vector space? Maybe this is the standard definition of "extension". "but we know no such extensions exist." I think this means there are quaternions (dimension 4) and octonions (dimension 8) but no similar fields of odd-numbered dimension. But how do we know this? Are we sure we didn't use this result (fundamental theorem of algebra) when we were establishing that there are no such odd-numbered fields? It would be good to at least name the theorem being used here, or state when it was proven or something about the proof such as what fields of mathematics are used in it.

I included this proof to illustrate how a very different(?) sort of argument could be used to show that Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle \mathbb{C}} is algebraically closed. I don't expect that the argument would be understood by a reader not having had a university level course in algebra, but here's the idea: By the intermediate value theorem, any polynomial of odd degree must have a root, and so extensions built up from odd degree polynomials must contain (real) roots for those polynomials. Now, the Galois group of a normal field extension (roughly, one that arises through adjunction of all roots of a set of polynomials) has some order. If n is the largest integer such that Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle 2^n} divides th order of the group, there must be a normal subgroup of that order (i.e, a subgroup left invariant by congugation by elements of G) by the Sylow theorem for p = 2. Now, the subset of K fixed by this subgroup is, in fact a subfield which we may call L. Since n is maximal, L must be an odd degree extension, meaning any element of L must be root of an odd degree polynomial, but they must have roots in the base field, a contadiction. Greg Woodhouse 21:02, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

I think it would be helpful to put some reassuring words into this paragraph such as "less advanced readers may not be able to follow this, but ..." or "some readers may wish to skip to the beginning of the next paragraph" or "readers sufficiently familiar with field theory will be able to follow this". (2nd paragraph of "Algebraic closure".)

Under "What about complex analysis?" it says at the end of the first paragraph "(The more interesting question is why we would want to avoid using it!)" I have mixed feelings about this sentence. It is an interesting question, and is the sort of thing that makes this article interesting -- gives it zing. On the other hand, it seems to contradict the flow of what had just been said earlier in the paragraph. It's sort-of like saying "let's prove this theorem" and then proving it and then saying "why would anybody want to prove a theorem like that?" Seems jarring or derogatory of the article. I'm not sure how to fix this and keep the zing.

In the section called "Differentiation", it talks about whether it's meaningful to differentiate complex functions, which is fine except that earlier in the article we already used the concept of holomorphic, which I thought used the concept of differentiation in its definition. So it seems that perhaps things are not being done in a rigourous order.

"This seemingly innocuous difference actually has far reaching implications." I would hyphenate "far-reaching" when used as an adjective phrase.

Just after Cauchy-Riemann equations are introduced, "They may be obtained by noting that if the approach path is on x-axis", insert "the" before "x-axis".

In the 2nd paragraph of the "Complex numbers in physics" section, I think the html math tags have been forgotten around one of the psi symbols. Also in that section: "It's not hard to see that these functions must be complex waves, but it can be demonstrated experimentally that this must be so. " I had a course in quantum mechanics and I don't see why they must be complex waves. Could the argument be fleshed out a bit? The double-slit experiment demonstrates a wave nature of the particles, but how does it demonstrate a complex wave nature in particular?

Thanks for an enjoyable read. --Catherine Woodgold 19:01, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

Well, I suppose what I had in mind was that if Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle \psi} is an eigenstate corresponding to a real eigenvalue (for Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle \Delta} , at least) it will not be periodic. If you write out a Fourier expansion, you've got to have complex terms. Another argument is that for probabilities to make sense, you've got to have interference. Greg Woodhouse 21:09, 22 April 2007 (CDT)

Like Catherine, I don't find the argument in the article that convincing as it stands. The double-slit experiment with light is usually explained without using complex numbers. The article should explain why you need complex numbers if you do the same experiment with electron beams. In other words, why is the quantum-mechanical wave function e^(x-ct) while light beams are modelled with sin(x-ct)?

An other argument, if you're willing to consider Schrodinger's equation as given, is simply to point out the factor i in the equation. Perhaps that already proves that complex numbers are essential in quantum mechanics. -- Jitse Niesen 21:08, 24 April 2007 (CDT)

Quantum Mechanics

I started a new section because the previous section is getting long and difficult to edit. I agree that the example of electron diffraction, at least as presented, isn't a terribly convincing argument for the necesseity of dealing with complex numbers, and I may just delete it. I guess that what I have in mind was that the operator corressponding to momentum is Failed to parse (SVG (MathML can be enabled via browser plugin): Invalid response ("Math extension cannot connect to Restbase.") from server "https://wikimedia.org/api/rest_v1/":): {\displaystyle -i\hbar\Delta} and, in terms of matrices, this going to mean complex eigenvalues. Frankly, I don't have a very good feel for the mathematics behind the correspondence between observables and operators - it just seems like a kind of "black box" to me. Greg Woodhouse 22:42, 24 April 2007 (CDT)

I found this exposition by Scott Aaronson enlightening when it made rounds on the interweb a few weeks ago (scroll down to "Real vs. Complex Numbers"). Fredrik Johansson 02:15, 25 April 2007 (CDT)

What a thought provoking article! Unfortunately, I barely have time to glance at it right now, but I shall return to it soon. Greg Woodhouse 06:49, 25 April 2007 (CDT)

Can we make it even better?

Great work, everyone! Certainly a great article on this important topic is a significant plus for the Mathematics section of CZ.

I'm proposing a list of modifications below. All of them are (of course) debatable.

Move the formal definitions (the sections "Formal definition" and "Beyond the notation") much later in the article.

When we teach complex numbers to math majors, first we simply teach them as "a+bi"s together with how arithmetic works on them; only later do we teach formal definitions. And CZ articles aren't written for math majors even - more like general college-educated people. I think it's preferable to just explain how they work first - this is more valuable general information by far than formal constructions (just as is the case for integers, real numbers, ...!). As an aside, I think the "Beyond the notation" section right now is undecided between two goals: justifying the "a+bi" notation, and describing the construction of the complex numbers as R[x]/(x^2+1).

Move the basic operations and polar coordinate operations very close to the top of the article.

The person on the street will have more use for that information than any of the rest, including the Cardano's method example, tantalizing though it is.

Rewrite the first two sentences very carefully.

The first sentence, standing alone, should constitute an excellent definition of "complex number". At the moment the second sentence is a crucial part of the definition. The way it's written right now is good, don't get me wrong ... but we want that first sentence to be great, fantastic, beyond reproach!

Take out the proofs that the complex numbers are algebraically closed.

In an introduction to the subject of complex numbers, I think it's much more important to describe what we know about them then how we know it. To use an analogy, an introductory article about DNA would certainly describe the double-helix structure and nucleotide pairs, but I suspect it wouldn't go into the details of how that structure was discovered and verified. We mathematicians love proofs, and the field of mathematics would be ludicrous without them; but proofs are our version of how we know, not what we know. (Of course these levels can recurse upon one another....)

Take out all of the stuff about complex analysis and start a new article with it.

self-explanatory

Create a new section titled something like "Why bother using complex numbers?" and gather relevant material thereunder. (Did I just use the word "thereunder"?!)

Examples of such relevant material would be the Cardano's method example, the fact that the complex numbers are algebraically closed, physical applications ... perhaps the ease of writing down the solutions to constant-coefficient differential equations (not sure about the relative importance of that example) ... things like this. People who think that complex numbers aren't worth the bother (a reasonable position, on the face of it) should be converted by this section.

Do put math tags around all the in-line pieces of math, even single variables.

This refers to the Comments made in Section 9 of this discussion page. Right now the software isn't perfect at melding math with prose, but that could change in the future; we want the structure of the article source to be accurate so that future improvements to the software automatically improve this article.

Keep up the great work, authors! - Greg Martin 00:08, 25 April 2007 (CDT)

I am no mathematician, and you may use the above to improve this article, but - as the famous surgeon Halsted once said- Better is the enemy of the good. You can imagine how that might apply to doing a surgical operation. For an article to be approved it should be reasonably complete, true, and well-written. After approval, more work will continue on the draft. In other words- it can always be better- but is it adequate? Complete as it stands? That's the question for approval. Nancy Sculerati 00:17, 25 April 2007 (CDT)

Many of the points that Greg mentions boil down to the appropriate level for the article. As it stands, the article is tough going for the average reader. For instance, I have never learnt Galois theory, so I don't understand the details of the algebraic proof of the fundamental theory of algebra. Of course, I can skip the section and it won't cause any problems, but we should avoid forcing many readers to skip sections. Similarly, I greatly enjoy the historical section, but it is rather demanding, so I can see the value in the suggestion to move the "basic operations" and "geometric interpretation" up.

However, Nancy also has a point. Looking at the Approval Standards (points a-e), I don't see any grave problems. The article needs some vigorous copyediting, along the lines that Catherine mentioned. Furthermore, there are a couple of sentences that I'd like to see clarified:

1. "A rigorous construction of this set was given much later by Carl Friedrich Gauss in 1831" (at the end of the historical section): as mentioned above.
2. "we could have avoided the use of the exponential function here, but only at the cost of more complicated algebra" (at the start of the section What about complex analysis?): what does this refer to?
3. "this is just the condition for the existence of a scalar potential" (in the complex integration section): needs some elaboration.
4. the physical section needs a rethink (or be removed for the time being).

As I see it, there are two possibilities. Either we aim to have the article approved as soon as possible; if somebody can vouch for the Galois theory section, this shouldn't take too long in my opinion. We can then discuss the issue on the level we should aim at. The other possibility is to start with discussing the appropriate level, possibly rewrite the article, and then approve it. Both are acceptable to me. Greg, and others, what do you think? -- Jitse Niesen 09:28, 25 April 2007 (CDT)

If it can be rewritten so that it is clearly understandable to an intelligent layman at the university level- that is optimal. Nancy Sculerati 09:31, 25 April 2007 (CDT)

I've been trying to write for university level students who are mathematically knowledgeable, but who haven't necessarily taken any upper division or graduate level courses in mathematics. I've also tried to write so that anyone having had just basic calculus would be able to understand most, if not all, of the article. Greg Woodhouse 10:14, 25 April 2007 (CDT)

I've found these comments very thoughtful and helpful - thank you! In particular, Nancy and Jitse put in focus for me that the following question is really what's under discussion here: what does approving an article signify?

I agree that a read through Approval Standards doesn't unearth much to complain about (some things perhaps, but all debatably). (For example I think we're doing a great job presenting complex numbers in a neutral fashion!) On the other hand, look at the three paragraphs in the section of CZ:Article_Mechanics called The nature or purpose of an encyclopedia article. I think this paradigm is what I'm hoping to adhere more closely to, with my suggestions above.

Moreover, I see also that there are respectfully competing motivations for approving articles in this early stage of CZ. On the one hand, we want articles approved early to prove that CZ is flourishing (and also to show how effective our own workgroup is being). On the other hand, early approved articles probably bear the weight of much scrutiny and ought, ideally, to be exemplary role models for CZ articles.

I welcome feedback on both these aspects of the approval decision. If someone points me to a place on the forums where this might be under discussion, I'd be happy to catch up there. - Greg Martin 13:31, 25 April 2007 (CDT)

Greg, the truth is that it's up to you (and Jitse) as Editor(s). I do think that your concerns are exactly correct and that the crux here has to do with the "nature or purpose of an encyclopedia article". At what point does this article qualify as meeting those guidelines? That's your call. The Approved version is just a stable version that is true and accurate, and a "good-enough" encyclopedia article. That phrase "good-enough" is borrowed from the parenting literature, Pediatricians use it reassure good mothers and fathers that they don't have to be perfect or better to raise their children, they do have to be... Once approval is made, more work continues on the draft - so it's not like a print edition decision, there s more leeway.Obviously, though, you want to be proud of the article. I'd say the best way to get an idea of where we are in the process is to go to the Main page and click through the Approved Articles. They are all on different levels, some are more complete than others, the writing in some is better than in others, but all are decent. As the Approvals Management Editor, and as somebody who worked on most of the approved articles as an author, I'd say that we continue to argue among ourselves over both those aspects of the approvals decision and nobody can really settle it for you. Here are some pragmatic questions: Is the subject covered so that the reader knows - by the end of the article -what the title of the article means? Is the article a narrative that can be followed from start to finish? Can you as Editor feel confident that it is not plagerized and that references are appropriate? Is it nicely illustrated? Are spelling and grammar correct? Are there typos in the math? There will be an opportunity after Approval to fix minor errors- copyedit by contacting me - but the article should be in good shape by approval. When the article is nominated for approval, the editor can choose between 48 hours and 1 week between the time the approval nomination template goes up and approval will occur. During that time others will be invited to look. Other Mathematics Editors could remove the template if they think the article is really problematic, you yourself might if problems of an unsuspected magnitude or a large number of small problems are pointed out such that the article isn't smooth by the approval date. Hope this long winded comment helps. By the way- the reason that there is the new "copyedit through the Approvals Editor" rule is that, often, as Approval nears the article gets swarmed by editors/authors trying to get it better. This often results in big improvement, but leaves a rough edge. You probably have to experience it to understand what I mean, once you get a couple of articles approved, you'll see- that is, if Mathematicians are anything like Biologists. We know you are better, of course - we just don't know how much. The end of the approval process for us has always been asymptotic. :) Nancy Sculerati 20:50, 25 April 2007 (CDT)