User talk:Hayford Peirce

Hayford Peirce

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CZ:Article mechanics

The guidelines for Definitions have been changed to "no more than 30 words/150 characters". This is not in conformity with CZ:Definitions as claimed: It gives 100 characters, just as is in the info text shown when a new definition is edited. (Personally, I think it is better to request the lower limit and be tolerant if it is slightly exceeded.) Peter Schmitt 23:51, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I saw that the change had been made but I didn't bother to verify whether it was correct or not. Are you saying that his rewriting was wrong and that it should be reverted to the earlier version? Hayford Peirce 23:57, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Right or wrong -- that is not clear. There is certainly an inconsistency: If you start to create a definition you are asked for at most 100 characters. The same limit is given on CZ:Definitions#Format of the definition itself. However, I saw just now, that in CZ:Definitions#What are definitions in the Citizendium? 150 characters are given, also changed by James to 150, but a year ago, because of the number of words stated there. It seems to me that the original purpose was 100 characters, but of course one might think that this is oo trestrictive. Peter Schmitt 00:19, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Tell you what -- would you and James get together on this and come up with a version that is mutually satisfactory? And bring in Joe Quick or Ro or anyone else that might be interested. This is much more an Editor's sort of decision than a Constable's -- I'll be happy to do what you agree on, but I'd like to see some consensus about it. Thanks! Hayford Peirce 01:40, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't want be a contrarian, but I think that 30 words of 5 characters each (or 150 characters) is too restrictive. Personally, I think that we should settle on 200 characters (which is equivalent to 25 words of 8 characters each) without mention of any number of words .... just 200 characters. Milton Beychok 01:54, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I second Milt in that we need to limit the number of characters, not words. The exact number does not matter too much, but it should be used consistently across the site. --Daniel Mietchen 02:08, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

(unindent)Originally the definition article stated "no more than 30 word/100 character". There seemed to clearly be something wrong with this as the average word is not just over 3 characters. Five characters is considered to be one word as I recall from my typing classes during my school days, so I changed it to read "30 words, 150 characters", taking the word limit to be normative. I had forgotten that I was the one who originally changed the wording in CZ:Definitions. I hope no one thinks I was trying to pull a fast one, as they say. Anyway, the limit needs to be clarified and I favor the longer version. James F. Perry 04:24, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

(addendum) I just now noticed that the CZ:Definition article refers to "100 characters" further down in the article without mention of the number of words. The passage which I amended a year ago mentioned both (30 words and 100 characters). James F. Perry 04:32, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, when all of you eagle-eyed Citizens come to an agreement on this, we'll fix both the "Article mechanics" page AND all of the others that are inconsistent. I'll count on you people to get this done.... Hayford Peirce 04:37, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

(unindent)I just examined a sampling of definitions (total = 50), using the "random page" button as a selector. Here are the results:

less than 100 characters - 8 total (16%); 101-125 characters - 8 total; 126-150 characters - 10 total; 151-175 characters - 5 total; 176-200 characters - 7 total; 201-225 characters - 3 total; 226-250 characters - 2 total; 251-275 characters - 0 total; 276-300 characters - 1 total; 301 and over - 6 total

No attempt was made to correct for formatting characters which, in any case, were few by comparison to the total number of characters in the definition.

The median number appears to be about 150. That is, half of the definitions were less than 150 characters, and half more than that. Only about 1 in 6 came in below the 100 character "limit".

For the record, among the 50 definitions which I checked, the extremes were: 54 (Mnemonic) at the low end and 449 at the high end (article title withheld to protect the identity of the culprit).

(Now I suppose someone is going to tell me that there is a bot which can handle this type of sampling). ;-)

James F. Perry 17:43, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

You probably had some lemma articles in your sample. But even without these exceptions, I also noticed that the length of definitions often exceeds the limit suggested. Since it may be expected that any limit will not be strictly honoured, I tend to set a lower limit, hoping that it will not be exceeded too much, something like: "The definition should have at most 100 characters (if at all possible). In exceptional cases it may have up to 150 characters." I also think that no word count should be given. Peter Schmitt 22:58, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

(Unindent)Suggest we adopt an upper limit on characters and not specify limit on number of words. An upper limit of 200 characters seems more reasonable than 100 characters, else risk making definition too simplistic. Add exhortation to make definition as concise as practical. Specify that spaces and punctuation do not count as characters, as well as formatting symbols (list many examples of latter). Anthony.Sebastian 00:25, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

The guidelines should not be bureaucratic, but brief and suggestive. So we need not worry about spaces, punctuation. "Number of characters in the displayed definition" takes care of markup (of which only links really are significant). Peter Schmitt 00:37, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Peter, I don't think I had any lemma articles in the sample. I was looking for such and would have removed them from the sample had I noticed. I called up the article from the "random page" button, then went to the "talk" page from where I got the definition, so I saw the article as well as the definition. They all had subpages, though I realize that lemma articles can have subpages also.

One problem I see with a deliberately low limit (100 characters) is that if it is too low, people will simply ignore it altogether, whereas if the limit is at least reasonable, they might make more of an effort to conform to it. If it is too high, then you might see a gradual drift upwards in the length of the definitions with too little effort made in the direction of succinctness.

Bottom line is: 1) I favor a limit of between 150 and 200 characters (expressed in characters only, not words, but not counting formatting characters), and; 2) the limit should be considered hortatory, but rather firmly so, and not a strict limit.

James F. Perry 02:29, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

A bigger problem with my sampling is that the number of characters reported on the "history" page of the definition apparently includes the "noinclude - subpages - noinclude " stuff that precedes the actual definition. That is an extra 36 charcters added to the numbers reported on the "history" page (and above in my sample reports). That being the case, I would tend to favor the lower, 150 character limit (still hortatory, of course). Terribly sorry for the confusion. James F. Perry 02:53, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

It seems that "150 characters" (and suggesting to use less) could be the basis for consensus? Peter Schmitt 23:02, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Final re-approval of Amine gas treating/Draft is due today

Hayford, would you do the honors? Or should I ask Matt? Milton Beychok 19:31, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

This is a *re-approval*, right? If so, you better ask Matt. I can't figure out how to do them. Matt says it's simple, but it doesn't look simple to me, and every time I've tried it I've messed things up. Sorry. Hayford Peirce 19:36, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

If it looks like there are going to be *lots* of reapprovals (and I know that some of you technical people want them for your articles) you might want to collaborate with Matt on a PRECISE instruction sheet on how to do reapprovals, one that even I could understand. I'd be happy to do them -- but not if I'm simply going to spend hours first messing them up and then trying, fruitlessly, to unmess them. Hayford Peirce 19:38, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I'll check it out :) D. Matt Innis 20:16, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Did you get all that? The new subpage stuff did cause a bleep in the {{Approval}} template, so make sure not to COPY the "noinclude"subpages"noinclude" stuff from the bottom of the metadata page. How long did it take me? D. Matt Innis 20:31, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Okie, I'll take a look at all the Recent Changes in reverse order and see if I can follow what you did. Hayford Peirce 20:45, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

notice on recent changes page

I just noticed that the notice at the top of the recent changes page still links to the "Workgroup Weeks" page. I don't think that's really appropriate anymore. The actual message exists at MediaWiki:Recentchangestext, so it takes special privileges to edit it. Could you remove that part of the message? Thanks, Joe Quick 13:31, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

I got it. Good catch Joe, I'm not sure I ever read that thing ;-) D. Matt Innis 03:21, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Bernard Bujold

Looks like we allowed M. Bujold 14 months' free advertising... John Stephenson 04:42, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Geez. Well, Roger, Larry, and Stephen all took care of that and welcomed him. Not me. But I can sure kick his derriere out of here! Hayford Peirce 05:10, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

I am surprised he was listed as an (now inactive) editor in 8 workgroups — shouldn't this alone ring some bells? --Daniel Mietchen 08:15, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

I would enjoy being party to some of the editorship decisions on this wiki. John Stephenson 09:38, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

John, what do you think of this suggestion then? --Daniel Mietchen 10:13, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Hayford, what do you think about restoring his account but replacing his ad text with a brief explanation of why he was banned? The benefit of this would be that everyone could have a look at the history to learn how this could happen and, more importantly, how it could be prevented in the future. Thanks! --Daniel Mietchen 15:05, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I like this suggestion because history should be preserved as much as possible. Banned authors, and authors leaving have left traces, and one should be able to follow these traces. Unless there are legal reasons, blanking and protecting, or moving to cold storage, should be sufficient. Peter Schmitt 15:52, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I've thought about this in the past in similar cases, with the same considerations in mind as both of you have, and then said the hell with it -- too much work. It's easier to simply vanish 'em. However this is simply *my* opinion: why don't you post the same messages to Matt Innis -- maybe he'll agree with you and restore things as you suggest. Hayford Peirce 17:38, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

PS -- it's not as if this character were a Prof. Jensen who had left a *mountain* of work behind him -- this character didn't contribute anything at all as far as I know, so why do we need a record of him? I think that when I went to Harvard they said that they never kicked a student out, they just asked him to take a leave for a year or so. BUT when they *did* kick someone out, they *really* did it -- they called it "expunged": they cleared the records of his existence. Supposedly. Anyway, in my opinion, the egregious Bernard falls into this category.... Hayford Peirce 17:42, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

approvals

Email system and natural gas are scheduled for approval today. Scarborough Castle is scheduled for tomorrow. All three should be set to go. --Joe (Approvals Manager) 13:37, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Everyone is signed off and the versions scheduled to be OKed are the same ones as they *say* they are?Hayford Peirce 16:33, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for taking care of those. I work really long days on the weekend, so I can't keep track of things as closely when they happen between Friday night and Monday morning. --Joe (Approvals Manager) 18:01, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

The Forgotten Soldier Info Box

Hi Hayford,

I've managed to dig up some more information on The Forgotten Soldier including original publishing information, translations, ISBN's, etc, more than enough to fill up the Infobox, would it be alright to reintroduce it to the article? --Mehar Gill 00:40, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Sure, as long as it *looks* good -- when I saw it, all the categories on the left were blanked out. Hayford Peirce 01:21, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good, I've re-added the InfoBox and filled all of the applicable information. --Mehar Gill 01:40, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

As Hayford mentioned above, the entire left side is black. This is a problem with the template itself, and is no fault of yours. I'll take a look at the template and see why that happens. Drew R. Smith 01:58, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Fixed. Drew R. Smith 02:00, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Eventology

How about this one for the Fringe Workgroup? Ro Thorpe 23:34, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Ta, myte. That one had slipped me by. I just queried it in the Forum at http://forum.citizendium.org/index.php/topic,2919.75.html Hayford Peirce 23:59, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Daniel should be able to handle it. D. Matt Innis 01:06, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

For all I know it's a world-famous theory on the level of Dr. Freud's stuff. On the other hand.... Hayford Peirce 01:27, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

... I'll say it... it could be more moon hoax nonsense :) D. Matt Innis 03:00, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

That's what it sounds like to me, off-hand, on the other hand Tom Morris did an edit on it, and he's our resident grouchy hardhead -- I would have expected him to scream like an eagle. But we'll see.... Hayford Peirce 04:13, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Hehe, I thought you were the grouchy hardhead! :D D. Matt Innis 04:20, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

True, but his language is frequently somewhat more extreme than mine. Hayford Peirce 04:33, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

I had a quick look and to me it seems a spoof, see [1]. I looked a bit further and found List of staff of SFU, the author is not on it. But he could have retired. Going deeper I discovered a few publications of the author (in Russian) about eventology, so although it sounds like a spoof it is apparently genuine. --Paul Wormer 06:25, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

I have commented on Talk:Eventology#Comment. Peter Schmitt 12:04, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Reading/Definition

My adding a speedydelete template to this page led to the mess on the Speedy Deletion Requests list: most of them are not for deletion. Deleting Reading/Definition will probably clear it up. John Stephenson 09:28, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

I have "hidden" the template, so the mess should be gone. Peter Schmitt 10:37, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

There are still about 6 "reading" files in the Speedy Delete -- should they be deleted? Hayford Peirce 18:58, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

I see only five. They all are redirects and should be deleted. The "wrong" entries were Related Articles subpages which have Reading on them. Peter Schmitt 19:48, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Is the Editor's Mail List locked? Why?

Hayforth, the link I have to the Editor's Mail List on my user page now has a lock icon next to it. Is the Editor's Mail List now locked? if so, why? Milton Beychok 21:40, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

So I see. But I don't have a clue as to why. Has it just shown up? Have you used it before? In any case, I don't know what to do about it. Better ask Matt. Hayford Peirce 21:48, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

This is a lock, but it does not mean this list is locked. If you follow the link you get https: a page (instead of http:), i.e., the traffic is encrypted. Peter Schmitt 22:33, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

I recently began using the Firefox browser. The lock shows when using Firefox but does not show when I use my IE6 browser. I think the problem is that I must log in to the Editors Mail List while I am using Firefox ... but the mail list has no option or method for a simple log in ... it keeps telling me that I am already subscribed, but the lock doesn't go away. Does Daniel Mietchen, Drew Smith or anyone else have an answer?

The reason I suspect that I must log in, is that all of the other forums I belong to required me to sign in again when I began using Firefox. Milton Beychok 23:14, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Peter, you were right. I changed the link from https to http and the lock icon disappeared, although the link still takes me to https. I guess Firefox distinguishes http and https but that lock icon and IE6 does not. All is now well, and thanks Peter. Milton Beychok 23:21, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Homeopathy - spelling of German title in reference

Hayford, yesterday when browsing parts of Homeopathy I noticed an incorrect spelling ("Selbsteverlag") in reference 33. After checking the (online) original I also corrected the title. Unfortunately this did not get into the approved version. (Only "referrring"). Peter Schmitt 20:15, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the welcome

I also appreciate the nice email. Lots to do here! I plan to look around a bit before participating. Andrea James 23:07, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

I am not clear on how the subpage template works. I tried to add it to University of Chicago, but it does not show up. Is there somewhere with detailed information on how to add all the bells and whistles? Thanks! Andrea James 05:15, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I'll take a look at it tomorrow -- I suppose there's a page somewhere with detailed info, but it keeps evolving. Mostly, it's just follow the instructions (not always clear) on the pages as you go along. Mostly it's Start a new article, type in xxsubpagesxx at the top of the blank page (substituting { brackets for the x), then click save, and scroll down and *try* to follow what it tells you to do here and there. After starting the article, the next thing to do, generally, is the Metadata. Then the Definition. Then the Talk page (nothing to do here except add the xxsubpagexx template at the top. Hayford Peirce 05:37, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Led Zeppelin

Go ahead and do the mechanics on it. The nominated version received support from three music editors and noone has expressed any dissent, as far I know. It's been long enough that the normal approval process would have come and gone already anyway. --Joe (Approvals Manager) 15:39, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

What is with this article?

Email_User_Programs --Paul Wormer 09:43, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

This problem is solved: There are Main page and Definition for both "Email user programs" and "Email User programs". (David did not move the article but started it again.) This situation somehow triggered the "cluster move in progress" template. Peter Schmitt 10:23, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Hayford, I have to confess a (small) mistake. I discovered why I thought that I already put the delete request on Email User Programs: I had put it on the page that should stay, Email user programs, instead. (Probably, I did not notice that the redirect had carried me to the other file.) I do not think that much harm was done because it was only one sentence and David already replaced it. But you also deleted the Talk page, and this should probably be restored. Sorry, once more. Peter Schmitt 00:15, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Test

this is a test Hayford Peirce 18:46, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

French cuisine

I cannot recreate where you were lost. Possibly you were being redirected to a page without realising it? Anyway there is no problem deleting those two pages that were tagged. They were redirects left over from a move in 2007 after the content pages and edit history were moved to their new homes at French cuisine/Catalogs and Talk:French cuisine/Catalogs respectively. Chris Day 00:36, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Kelvin conundrum

I figured out what was going on with this. If you recall the talk pages get indexed under T for talk, in the category, but the link in the category takes you to the main page. So I clicked the link to Kelvin and then clicked the discussion link at the top of the page which took me to the Talk:Kelvin page. The speedydelete template was on Talk:Kelvin. I also deleted the other talk pages, three, I think, that also had speedydelete templates. Hope that all makes sense. Chris Day 00:44, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, that *does* make sense. But I *thought* that I had done the same thing, while I was looking all over the place. Evidently I didn't, though. Thanks! Hayford Peirce 00:50, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

There is an additional confusion that might have made matters worse for you. Note that when you click on the Kelvin link, as it's a redirect, you actually arrive at Kelvin (disambiguation). But look at the top of the page and you will notice a specific message that tell you that you have been redirected to that page. It looks like the following, (Redirected from Kelvin), and the link takes you back to the page you really do want to delete. It's the stuff of nightmares!  ;) Chris Day 01:03, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that's why I stopped Speedy Deleting for a while and begged Peter to sloooooow down with slapping them all over the place until we really understood what was going on. I *think* I've fixed the French business, simply by copying and pasting some stuff, but maybe not. Hayford Peirce 01:06, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, I haven't looked at the specifics, but I don't think copy and paste sounds like a good solution just because we will lose the history won't we? D. Matt Innis 02:02, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, now it seems as if I have copied it from the @#$%^&* discussion at the top of the page and pasted it into the @#$%^&* talk, which is a separate @#$%^&* page! So riddle me that! I am going to get rid of the stuff on the Discussion page and put a yellow thingee there telling people to go look at the Catalog/Talk page for discussions anent the Catalog list. Which is where the discussion *should* be!

Hehe, it sounds like one of those times that, if you're in a hole, quit diggin', lol... So I guess it wasn't the martinis :) D. Matt Innis 03:15, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm through diggin', digger, 'cause I got it straightened out. Hayford Peirce 03:17, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Technically, that makes you the digger digger, so you're a technically bigger digger than me. D. Matt Innis 03:22, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

If I weren't on a diet and forgoin' booze fer the moment, I would go mix a couple of martinis and try to figure *that* one out. For want of a martini, I think I'll go to bed and read the NYT.... Hayford Peirce 03:48, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Haha, try to say it 5 times fast.. no, don't, I don't want to drive you to drink :) D. Matt Innis 04:31, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Swap

Did you see my talk page? - dunno whether I should put answers there. Anyway I put this in the Spellings - now to put in BrE/AmE... Ro Thorpe 00:16, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

I saw it but couldn't count down to the 5th paragraph, and in any case couldn't understand anything in that general vicinity -- I forgot to query you about it.... Hayford Peirce 00:46, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Dubya

George Walker Bush

• 43, Bush II, Bush Jr. to differentiate him from his father George H.W. Bush.
• Dubya, a self-chosen name based on a Texas pronunciation of "W".

That's how I remembered it and as my friends at Wikipedia have confirmed. He provided a good stick to beat him with, typical of the generosity of the man, hand him another alcohol-free scotch. Feliz Natal - tonite is pre-natal, tomorrow is natal, and then it's post-natal all the way. However, this being continental Yurp, the main turkey meal has already taken place. Yummy! Ro Thorpe 20:41, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, I suppose if I were an idiot, I could call myself Idjit to distinguish myself from my father and then ask my friends to call me that too.... (Remember the great Mark Twain zinger?: "Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And now suppose that you were a Congressman. But I repeat myself.") As for dining, yes, I learned to pick up the Xmas eve habit in Tahiti. For years I thought it was weird, then got used to it. The kids' father would come get them Xmas eve for an enormous family dinner and festivities elsewhere; Douchka and I would have a terrific little dinner of foie gras, oysters, caviar, etc by ourselves; and then the next day the kids would come back and we'd have *our* Christmas presents and another big dinner. Too bad we didn't celebrate Boxing Day also, hehe.... Cheers! Hayford Peirce 21:05, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Art_Fraud_at_Tamara_Bane_Gallery

Your colleague copper is lenient toward this article: Art Fraud at Tamara Bane Gallery, see its talk page. Aren't you the bad cop and Matt the good cop? Have a look. Good Xmas meal tonite, don't overeat. --Paul Wormer 16:40, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Hi, Paul, thanks for the warning! I had a *tiny* piece of foie gras, a smallish piece of roast beef cooked on a spit, and 5 smallish popovers instead of yorkshire pudding, cooked in a 100-year-old cast-iron popover pan that I just bought -- it works a lot better than the modern teflon ones! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popover). Two glasses of red wine and then a martini after dinner to chase it all down. So no real extravagance. As for the Art Gallery stuff, I'm gonna let Matt handle that one. I've written a bunch of messages from the Constabulary home to Jon about this (getting the article started, actually) and that's all I feel like doing for the moment. I'm sure that Matt will be able to hammer something out.... All the best for the St. Sylveste, or whatever the hell they call New Year's Eve! Hayford Peirce 16:54, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Please read my comment at Talk:Art Fraud at Tamara Bane Gallery

Hayford, please read my comment on the subject Talk page and respond on that Talk page. Thanks. Milton Beychok 19:02, 26 December 2009 (UTC)