Talk:Nuclear magnetic resonance/Catalogs/Magnetic nuclei

The {{subpages}} template is designed to be used within article clusters and their related pages.
However, it cannot function on sub-subpage talk pages..Please continue discussion at Talk:Nuclear magnetic resonance, or return to the Magnetic nuclei subsubpage.

style

• all atoms whose numbers of protons and numbers of neutroms are both even will not be magnetically active OR
• all atoms whose numbers of protons and numbers of neutroms are both not even will be magnetically active

I think the second tells you which elements will show up in NMR/MRI the top line tells you which will not show up - readers might get confused Robert Tito |  Talk  16:49, 18 October 2007 (CDT)

I agree and will on it later. As it now stands, the sentence following it seems to be talking about the even/even when I am talking about the magnetically active ones. Got to fly now.

Also, the list is not complete, and only lists the common isotopes, not crazy short-lived atom smasher created ones.

David E. Volk 17:24, 18 October 2007 (CDT)

magnets

magnets used for NMR spectra are really strong (I have used magnets up to 60 Gauss) and cooled down (nitrogen most of the time) but superconductivity played no part to create these spectra. Only good channel analyzers and patience - many spectra took the best part of 72 hours to get a signal above the noise level. Robert Tito |  Talk  17:17, 18 October 2007 (CDT)

It is the superconducting coils that allows for extremely large currents ( say 200 Amps or more)to last for years in a circular loop, which IS the magnetic field (Faraday effect). They actually all have a liquid Helium bath in the center, surrounded by a liquid N2 bath. N2 is filled every week or two, helium every 6-8 weeks. I don't recall the Gauss conversion, our magnets are about 17-20 Telsa (or 600, 750 and 800 MHz proton frequency).

most materials at the T(He) are not superconductive but rather extremely well conducting. To get real way down you need hydrogen - but thats beside the general point: it needs being a very strong magnetic field, irrespective how that's produced. Next we get patients needing an MRI scan worried about the liquid nitrogen/helium and what it can do to them :). I will delete the reference to cuperconductive for ease of reading and the people that know about the topic know how thats produced. Robert Tito |  Talk  17:43, 18 October 2007 (CDT)

Negative spin quantum number

Hi David, I see some elements in the table with negative spin. What do NMR people mean by that? --Paul Wormer 10:05, 19 October 2007 (CDT)

I think the best response to positive and negative spins is: no matter what sign they respond to a strong magnetic field one in the direction A and the other in the direction -A. Important is to note they respond likewise only the direction differs by 180˚. Robert Tito |  Talk  14:22, 19 October 2007 (CDT)

reply to Robert, and possible name change

Robert, I changed from A, -A to Z and -Z since this is the standard reference directions in NMR. I still am not convinced that I choose the right name for this page. Should it be something like magnetically active (chemical) elements, or magnetically active nuclei, or magnetic atoms or magnetic nuclei????

David, heck no big deal, of course is z the better choice, compare to s_z. It might be more appropriate to use a small cursive Z but I wonder why that would matter much, the bold indicative it can also be seen as a vector. I think people will understand it better because no matter what they know they will be pointed to think “oh one goes left the other right, or up down”. The only term I have seen and have used is magnetic material, para-magnetic. Put in atom or element for material, I guess element then is the best choice though some (short lived) isotopes may have different magnetic properties. I don't whink we should even consider treating those as their impact to the material we are talking about can be neglected. Robert Tito |  Talk  17:51, 19 October 2007 (CDT)

Approval

I think this article's not large enough & not understandable to casual readers. It reads too much like a Wikipedia article. Shouldn't it start by explaining what NMR active elements are?

Even if I were to go with the existing information, it should explain what spectroscopy is, under what circumstances magnetically active nuclei exist - or if this is just referring to elements containing magnetic force, what is non-zero nuclear whatever, ok... what were we studying? (Chunbum Park 11:35, 26 February 2008 (CST))

This article is meant to be a reference page, or catalog, not an explaination of NMR. Thus, the NMR spectroscopy page would either point to this, or this could be a catalog under the NMR spectroscopy page, theory of NMR page, or atomic nuclei page, and so forth. So, I will not be expanding it. The details you request will be in several other articles. I have been meaning to rename this page to Catalog of magnetically active atomic elements, or something similar, but I can't quite decide on the very name yet. Any thoughts on the renaming? David E. Volk 12:32, 26 February 2008 (CST)

How about Catalog of magnetic isotopes, I think that is very accurate for a name. David E. Volk 16:05, 26 February 2008 (CST)

Oh, never mind then. I think that this article's sufficient as a catalog - we have to leave the question of approval to the editors. (Chunbum Park 17:25, 26 February 2008 (CST))

With respect to a catalogs this article could easilty have its own catalog for the table (NMR active elements/Catalogs). Moving the whole thing to NMR spectroscopy is another option (NMR spectroscopy/Catalogs/Active elements) but using the sub-subpage option. Or just use the catalogs subpage on that article ( (NMR spectroscopy/Catalogs). My gut feeling would go with keeping this article and move the table to the catalogs subpage. Chris Day (talk) 10:20, 4 March 2008 (CST)

After I wrote the above the page got moved. So to reframe my observations, I'd say the best options with this new name are:

• Magnetic nuclei/Catalogs
• NMR spectroscopy/Catalogs/Magnetic nuclei
• NMR spectroscopy/Catalogs

In the forums there has been much discussion on whether catalogs should be stand alone artiocles named Catalog of.... I think it was agreed that these should probably be in the subpage environment, the tennis catalogs and cuisine catalgs were the ones discussed at the time. Has there been more recent discussion on this? I have not followed the forums recently. Chris Day (talk) 10:28, 4 March 2008 (CST)

I think the article is in good shape right now, though I would agree with David E. Volk's suggestion to rename it into Catalog of magnetic isotopes. -- Daniel Mietchen 03:16, 7 March 2008 (CST)

Approval process

I've stopped by to perform the mechanics of approval for this article. What I see is an article that has two editors that have participated in the content of this article, so I need one more for to be able to perform the approval. The other option would be the individual editor approval process but that would mean some renegotiating of the article. I'll hold off for another 24 hours while you work this out. D. Matt Innis 19:32, 29 February 2008 (CST)

Any questions? -D. Matt Innis 08:54, 4 March 2008 (CST)

It looks like this article is still in a state of flux. I will remove the To Approve template for now. It looks like this might be part of a larger subject that we can develop and approve all at the same time. --D. Matt Innis 16:22, 12 March 2008 (CDT)

That's probably a good idea for now Matt. We'll get back to it soon. David E. Volk 08:58, 13 March 2008 (CDT)

Catalog names

My feeling is that many catalogs will be listed under the Catalogs subpage of more than one article, so it seems odd to just pick one to put it under. For example, this catalog should be in the Catalogs subpages of both NMR spectroscopy, MRI, fMRI, Theory of NMR, probably some atomic physics articles, maybe the Periodic table, and others I haven't thought of. So it seems to me catalogs should be separate entitites unless they are very specific to one field, like Catalog of mansions in Galveston, County, Texas. David E. Volk 10:51, 4 March 2008 (CST)

Alternatively they might live in the parent topic, or umbrella topic, since I suppose physics would be the parent topic. In this case, I assume the best bet for an umbrella topic would be NMR spectroscopy? It might be a good idea to take this to the forums sicne this will be a recurring theme in article throughout CZ. Chris Day (talk) 11:09, 4 March 2008 (CST)

Deciding what is the parent topic is sometimes difficult. Is the parent topic chemical elements, atomic properties, atom, atomic physics? David E. Volk 11:13, 4 March 2008 (CST)

I agree. That should be an editorial decision. It should not matter too much since transclusions or redirects could have the information repeated at different locations. For example If the table was housed at NMR spectroscopy/Catalogs/Magnetic nuclei, it could also be seen at Atom/Catalogs/Magnetic nuclei or just linked from the Atom/Catalogs page. The key is there should only be one table that is accessible from all pages. Chris Day (talk) 11:28, 4 March 2008 (CST)

I just set up the above examples to field test. The advantage of the transclusion at Atom/Catalogs/Magnetic nuclei is you don't even notice you are looking at a catalog on another page. This might have a disadvantage in that it might be more confusing to edit. Another potential problem with transclusions is it might be a memory hog for the CZ server? I have no idea how potentially bad this might be. Chris Day (talk) 11:41, 4 March 2008 (CST)

The form at Atom/Catalogs/Magnetic Nuclei is how I first intended this page to look like. However, I think we still need the name Catalog or List in the name, because another article called Magnetic nuclei will need to be written that describes all of the quantum details. David E. Volk 13:22, 4 March 2008 (CST)

First, I started a thread on the forum. http://forum.citizendium.org/index.php/topic,1611.msg14514.html#msg14514

Second, I'm confused by this comment, don't all the examples given include the word catalog in the name? Chris Day (talk) 13:38, 4 March 2008 (CST)

a number of points

1) the existence of magnetism for an elemental isotope is a fundamental thing (sort of). It is magnetically active or not. This quality does not depend on the exist of NMR spectroscopy or any of its subfields like MRI, fMRI and so on, and any other field of physics. It is or is not. The top umbrella topic should perhaps be chemical element or atom. However, people interested in NMR and MRI will be the largest users of this informaton, by far.

2) I have no objection to moving this article to magnetic nuclei or magnetic atoms, or magnetic elements. People will likely search under all three terms anyway.

3) I liked the linking examples that give the full link of the page being linked to, so that the user knows a move to another cluster is occuring.

4) The original point of this page was this: Say someone wants to use NMR to study a Vanadium compound, what isotope of Vanadium would I need to use? Do I have more than one choice in the matter? What is the spin of this particular element and how sensitive is it?

5) An entire article will need to be written to adequately describe why an atom is magnetically active. This page would be listed in the catalogs for that article, as well as the articles about NMR spectroscopy, MRI, the Period table, atom, and some others.

6) I would prefer to wipe out all text except for the actual table of data. The other text can appear in other pages yet to be written. However, the non-existence of those pages does not diminish the usefulness of the current page for conducting research.

7) The whole topic of catalogs/lists needs to be incorporated into the general CZ style guide. There are some things that simply are lists of information that will be very useful for a number of other pages. This is one such page. It can live in many places. When an article is written about magnetic nuclei, I wouldn't want this huge list included in the article, but instead have a link to it as a solo entity.

8) Because others felt that text was needed, I will let subsequent authors and editors decide what to do. For now, I have a useful page to send graduate students to. David E. Volk 14:32, 10 March 2008 (CDT)