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'''Systems theory''' is a transdisciplinary and multiperspectual scientific inquiry that studies structure and properties of systems in terms of their relationships. It is through these mutually interactive relationships that new properties of the whole emerge. Of considerable significance to system researchers, these new properties of the whole cannot be found in the isolated elements. An example -- the wetness of ''H''<sub>2</sub>''O.''  The domains of system philosophy, methodology and application complement this science. The field of scientific inquiry is known as system science.  
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"I come not with my own strengths but bring with me the gifts,
talents and strengths of my family, tribe and ancestors."
 
Maori proverb
 
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"There is no way a sophisticated method can substitute for clear thinking." Andreas Goppold
 
"We cannot understand the whole bit by bit" Bela H Banathy
 
 
==notes==
 
Note 1:  Language is crucial to systems theory. In keeping with Korzybski's g-s and the Whorf Principle of Linguistic Relativity, it is imperative that the intro/definition be precisely worded. Leaving out a single word can make the difference between the new and the old. One bad word can turn the entire enterprise into nonsense. Furthermore, because ontological considerations are different, a new language is being sought. Until that is found, if ever, we are using old words to say something new.


While the philosophy of systems theory can be traced to the I Ching 5000 years ago, Ludwig von Bertalanffy, Kenneth Boulding, Ralph Gerard, and Anatol Rapoport first conceived systems theory as an authentic scientific methodology in 1954 at the Stanford Center for Advanced Study in the Behavioral Sciences. In collaboration with James Grier Miller, the Society for General Systems Research was formed in 1956 as an affiliate of the American Association for the Advancement of Science. Eventually the name was changed to International Society for the System Sciences (ISSS)which recently held its fiftieth conference.
There has to be a point where the knowledge of the subject takes precedence over editorial desires.  


==General systems theory== 
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General systems theory concerns concepts, principles, and models that are common to all kinds of systems and the isomorphisms between and among various types of systems.  
note 2) While I don't see it as a controversy of the confrontational kind, systems theory has a built-in controversy with classical science. Much ado is made of the diferent perspectives involved, (a) that of looking at an object and (b)that of looking at what the object is doing. So there is a lot of high-level talk about the shortcomings of the old science going on in the literature of systemics. I am not aware of any classical scientists refuting this observation however. So it has not become a controversy of the ordinary kind yet. Systems theory does not replace classical science, it is a complementary of classical science.  


Ludwig von Bertalanffy's book  ''General System Theory''. objective was to bring together under one heading the organismic structures that he had observed in his work as a biologist. von Bertalanffy's desire was to use the word "system" to describe those organismic principles which are common to systems in general. He writes: "...there exist models, principles, and laws that apply to generalized systems or their subclasses, irrespective of their particular kind, the nature of their component elements, and the relationships or "forces" between them. It seems legitimate to ask for a theory, not of systems of a more or less special kind, but of universal principles applying to systems in general." (GST p.32)
If there is controversy, used to be that cybernetics and systems each argued that the other came after, in the end, cybernetics is a special case of the more general systems theory. Today, the controversy is between complexity science and systems theory. IMO, Complexity wants to be top dog, and they act as if they invented something new e.g., the new science of complexity, but what they did is computerize/mathematize complex systems. They don't invalidate system theory principles, they regard them as "old hat" while, later,  they refer back to them as their core principles. In my very personal opinion IMVPO


However, the translation of the German into the English general system theory has "wroth a certain amount of Havoc" writes Ervin Laszlo[] in the preface of von Bertalanffy's book ''Perspectives on General System Theory''.. []
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note 3)
This quote is from the systems biology article. Does this suggest that systems theory is "dated"? Or does it suggest that the authors did not find it necessary (in this or any other part of the article) to acknowledge prior research? 
 
"When trying to understand biological systems, systems biologists need not treat the components or elements of a system (or subsystem) exclusively as discrete or concrete objects or entities (e.g., molecules, organelles, cells, etc.), but may also treat them as abstracted concepts of organizational collections or activity patterns of those objects or entities, admitting of study by mathematical, computational and statistical tools. Those include such concepts as circuits, networks and modules, more about which will follow below. Such concepts have a way of appearing less abstract or hypothetical as biologists more fully define them in terms of structure and coordinated dynamical interactions; predict systems behavior from them using quantitative models; and relate them functionally in the larger systems embedding them."


"The original concept of general system theory was Allgemeine Systemtheorie (or Lehre). Now "Theorie" (or Lehre) just as Wissenschaft (translated Scholarship), has a much broader meaning in German than the closest English words "theory" and "science." A Wissenschaft is any organized body of knowledge, including the Geisteswissenschaften (Scholarship of Arts), which would not be considered true sciences in English usage. And Theorie applies to any systematically presented set of concepts, whether they are empirical, axiomatic, or philosophical. (Lehre comes into the same category, but cannot be properly translated. "Teaching," the closest equivalent, sounds dogmatic and off the mark. However, doctrine can be a translation for it as well.  
The above is clearly systems theory. It is not consistant with the premise that systems theory is outdated/not used, it is consistant with the premise that systems theory is relatively unknown/ignored.


"Thus when von Bertalanffy spoke of Allgemeine Systemtheorie, it was consistent with his view that he was proposing a new perspective, a new way of doing science. It was not directly consistent with an interpretation often put on "general system theory," to wit, that it is a (scientific) "theory of general systems." To criticize it as such is to shoot at straw men. Von Bertalanffy opened up something much broader and of much greater significance than a single theory (which, as we now know, can always be falsified and has usually an ephemeral existence): he created a new paradigm for the development of theories."
Note 4) I received two reprints from John Warfield who has written on how to do systems work of high quality. Here we have one of the inside stories concerning the politics within the systems movement. They are people like everyone else, and they have faults like everyone else. In this case Warfield has done a tremendous quantity of systems research but he feels that his work has been neglected. This seems to be a common theme among systemists - neglect of the work of others.


Boulding writes in the 1968  International Encyclopedia of the Social Sciences, "The task of general systems theory is to find the most general conceptual framework in which a scientific theory or technological problem can be placed without losing the essential features of the theory or problem. The proponents of general systems theory see in it the focal point of resynthesis of knowledge."


The history of the systems model is traced back by von Bertalanffy to the 1600s in the binary numbering system of G.W. von Leibniz and Coincidentia Oppositorum by Nicholas of Cusa. von Bertalanffy writes: "Notice the theological motive in Leibniz's invention of the binary system. It represented Creation since any mumber can be produced by a combination of 'something' (1) and 'nothing (0). But has this antithesis metaphysical reality, or is it but an expression  of linguistic habits and of the mode of action of our nervous system?"


==Overview==
Note 5) On the other hande, Warfield writes, "It is a daunting task to discuss the design of a systems sciences program when the word "systems" and the word "science" have both been diminished in scope or scale by common yusage. This task is made still more dificult when, as in applications of systems science, the information that is required to resolve difficult situations is so often in the hands of people who are not accustomed to scientific language, whether debased or not."


The term systems theory is the early investigators nomenclature for interdependence of relationships. The system model contrasts with the Classical concept of reductionism by shifting the emphasis from parts to the organization of parts; from the "component to the dynamic" as Ervin Laszlo states it. A system is composed of mutually interacting or interrelating groups of activities/parts which, taken together, form a new whole. As this new whole has properties which are not found in the constituent elements. "We cannot understand the whole bit by bit" Bela H. Banathy states.
I think that Warfield hits the nail straight on the head. I for one, when I read decades ago about this system or that system, did not imagine a special meaning. My personal research into organismic systems went on for 22 years before I discovered system has a special meaning, the same meaning I was researching, and that literally tens of thousands have worked with it. The point is that when I came across the word "system" in my early research I didn't find any need to look further into the meaning of that word and in no way did I think that there was anything special about it. While system theory is common among systemists, as is system philosophy, system science, system thinking and systemics, the general public, and this includes Phd's from all disciplines, does not make that special connection either. This does not mean that the principles of system thoery have been likewise ignored, systems biology is a good example of parallel research apparently without any knowledge of system philosophy. Thus it is all the more important that the definition be explicite about the integrative aspect of a system. Systems thinking does not mean that all science should be put into the same framework as a bus system or sewer system or organizational system.  


In an online article compiled by the Primer Group at ISSS,[2] Bela H. Banathy writes in his article ''Systems Inquiry'',
note 6 The reason for this note is one sentence written by Warfield as a note 17 on page 538 journal article ----
"The systems view is a world-view that is based on the discipline of '''System Inquiry''', Central to systems inquiry is the concept of '''System'''. In the most general sense, system means a configuration of parts connected and joined together by a web of relationships. The Primer group defines system as a family of relationships among the members acting as a whole. Bertalanffy defined system as "'''elements in standing relationship."'''


"Traditional science was unable and unwilling to consider '''Purpose''' and '''Meaning''' which, in the emerging view of disciplined inquiry, has a guiding role. And where dominance once was the purpose, there is now a search for establishing a grand '''Alliance''' of science, philosophy, art, and religion.  
"The fundamental idea is that the systems science must be a neutral science that is applicable across the board, but which will usualy have to be supplemented by experts from the specific sciences or from other areas where relevant experience is found."


"In human activity systems these insights have led us to aspire to '''Understanding''' rather than predicting, problem '''Management''' rather than problem solution, and '''Purpose Seeking''' as a mode of thinking and action rather than determinism."
It appears that systems science and CitiZendium have something in common. Creating a neutral science is not difficult when general terms constitute the language. Enabling experts from specific sciences is more problematic. Systems science is not just science 2.0. In some crucial (ontological) respects  it is a completly new and different way of doing science. However, in our case, we have a perfect supplemental specific application of systems science to be found in the article [[systems biology]].  
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Bela H. Banathy has contributed extensively to the knowledge base of systems theory, human activity in particular. Bela Banathy's last book, ''Guided Evolution of Society: A System View'' presented a cultural evolution of models and ideas exploring "The Journey from Evolutionary Consciousness to Conscious Evolution." He talks about how biological evolution evolved into a cultural evolution, giving examples of how, when prehistoric man developed a language, his tool making evolved as well. [3]


===Systems Inquiry===


Ludwig von Bertalanffy outlines the inquiry of systems via three major domains: Philosophy, Science, and Technology. In his work with the Primer Group, Banathy generalized the domains into four integratable "domains of systemic inquiry" operating recursively.
:: I just found your comments Greg. I am planning on deleting the old article soon, and then reorganize this talk page according to tradition. Meanwhile, I have removed complexity for now and instead will deal with complex systems. I haven't done much with methodology because I am still trying to gather together significant areas. In one sense all of systemics is methodology, for example the change in thinking. I am working from several sources and I still haven't got the general framework correct yet,[[User:Thomas Mandel|Thomas Mandel]] 11:13, 24 June 2007 (CDT)


(1) Philosophy: ontology, epistemology, and axiology of systems;
== Methodology ==


(2) Theory: a set of interrelated concepts and principles applying to all systems;
The article has little to say (directly, at least) about methodology. It seems that the article ought to say something about ''how'' research in systems theory is done. [[User:Greg Woodhouse|Greg Woodhouse]] 22:34, 19 June 2007 (CDT)


These integrate as Knowledge.
== hard vs. soft systems and controversy ==


(3) Methodology: the set of models, strategies, methods, and tools that instrumentalize systems theory and philosophy;
The article states without justification that "soft" systems are not amenable to the same level of mathematical analysis as "hard" systems. This claim is not uncontroversial. Mathematical approaches such as neural networks or genetic algorithms are actually quite precise. What is more significant, though, is that these techniques do not easily (if at all) reduce to Zadeh's fuzzy systems, and there is little consensus that this is a useful theoretical approach. Other ostensibly "soft" models liike PDEs are reducible to "hard" models in a very precise way. Think, for example, of the relationship between thermodynamics and classical statistical mechanics. [[User:Greg Woodhouse|Greg Woodhouse]] 22:43, 19 June 2007 (CDT)
::No one is saying that hard system approaches are not precise, but they failed to live up to expectations when these techniques were applied to social systems, family system theory for example. The bottom line is that we have to report what they did/do and not what it appears like to you and me. [[User:Thomas Mandel|Thomas Mandel]]


(4) Application: the application and interaction of the domains.
== operations research ==


These integrate as Action.
Can you elaborate a bit on how OR fits into the framework of systems theory? The article lists it as a modern development, but doesn't elaborate further. [[User:Greg Woodhouse|Greg Woodhouse]] 22:47, 19 June 2007 (CDT)


Integrating Philosophy and Theory as Knowledge, and Methodology and Application as Action, Systems Inquiry then is Knowledgeable Action. Marcus Schwaninger describes this as "Being."
== computers and complexity ==


'''<small>Systemic thinking:</small>''' A tendency or natural predisposition to think in terms of systemic relationships without necessarily drawing upon systems concepts, systems principles, or systems models. Some examples of areas that incorporate and foster such thinking include permaculture, feminist studies, ecology, and the I Ching.
You might want to be a little more nuanced here. It is true that the growth of computer technology has played an important role in the styudy of complex systems, but one of the most iconic figures in the history of dynamical systems and chaos is Poincaré. Much of the theory goes back to the 19th century. The relationship between heat and triginometric series goes back to Joseph Fourier, In addition, the study of complexity theory in computer science (as is the case with computabilty) was initially concerned with computation in the abstract, not the complexity of algorithms executed on digital computers. [[User:Greg Woodhouse|Greg Woodhouse]] 23:33, 19 June 2007 (CDT)


==<small>Basic System Principles: </small>==
:::I will delete complexity science for now. [[User:Thomas Mandel|Thomas Mandel]] 11:19, 24 June 2007 (CDT)
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The basic principles found in all systems to some degree operate by the principle of wholeness, the principle of relationship, the principle of emergence, the principle of hierarchy, the principle of feedback and the principle of mutual interaction.
Here's some feedback from the field --
"Purpose, process, interaction, integration, and emergence are salient markers of understanding systems", Banathy writes.


Very interesting Thom:


==System types==
I suggest that you keep up the work!  It's quite good and contains a lot that I never knew.


Crucial to working with systems are the types of system. The major categories are '''Natural''' and '''Designed''' systems. Natural systems are those which occur in nature while designed systems are those created by us. Designed Systems include
Peace, -- Mark


a) Fabricated/engineered/physical systems;
Between you and me, I am surprised as much as you are, thanks to the guys here at CZ, I had to rise to a new level [[User:Thomas Mandel|Thomas Mandel]] 14:32, 23 June 2007 (CDT)


b) Hybrid systems which combine a designed system with a natural system (Hydroelectric plant)
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c) Conceptual systems such as theories, mathematics, philosophy, modeling and descriptive tools; and
It appears that there are two major applicabilities; one would within the systems theory domain, how systems theorists apply their research and the other would be in the field, or how systems theory is used by other than system theorists. This begs the question "Who is systems theory for?" The answer is found in the purpose of systems theory.[[User:Thomas Mandel|Thomas Mandel]] 00:53, 20 June 2007 (CDT)


d) Human Activity Systems, our purposeful creations (groups)
I don't know where your "this" starts and ends. I am trying to map it out as they have done it. Areas of applicability is what we call "Applications" I think what I was trying to do is form a historical sequence. [[User:Thomas Mandel|Thomas Mandel]] 15:58, 19 June 2007 (CDT)


The members of a set of classifications that arrange human activity systems according to how open-closed, mechanistic-systemic, unitary-pluralistic, or restricted-complex they are.
I moved this reply from the article page to here.
[[User:Thomas Mandel|Thomas Mandel]] 15:58, 19 June 2007 (CDT)


==<small> Human Activity Systems</small>==
:::Oops! Sorry about that.
Human Activity Systems are designed social systems organized for a purpose, which they attain by carrying out specific functions. The various types of '''Human Activity Systems''' include Rigidly controlled systems, (assembly line) Deterministic systems (educational systems); Purposive systems, (Corporations) Purpose Seeking systems, (social systems) and Heuristic systems, (R&D agentcies.  


==<small> Hard and soft systems</small>==
::None of this is history of systems theory. What you are doing in providing a long list of areas of research where some sort of phenomenon (e.g., feedback in queuing systems where customers are not lost to the system but able to reenter) is present that is of interest to systems theorists. Perhaps you can call it "areas of applicability" or something along those lines. [[User:Greg Woodhouse|Greg Woodhouse]] 15:39, 19 June 2007 (CDT)


Hard systems was made distinct from Soft systems in order to differentiate among the mathematical models employed. Some systems, such as a social system, do not lend themselves to mathematical formulations as they do in, say, chemical reaction systems. Generally, hard systems are the physical systems while Soft systems are Human Activity Systems.  
:::Very astute of you to catch that Greg. [[User:Thomas Mandel|Thomas Mandel]]


==<small> SSM</small>==
==Holding==
SSM or '''Soft Systems Methodology''' was developed by Peter Checkland as a generic systems approach to problem solving in Management. In its simple form, SSM is a progressive learning tool involving gathering information, defining concepts, developing conceptual models, comparing the models to the perceived reality and then action is taken accordingly. The process is recursive.


Fuenmayor has extended SSM with his theory of '''Interpretive Systemology.''' In this interpretation, fact are not facts in themselves, but are interpretations of/in context. He writes: "The methological search or knowledge is characterized by the modeling of various contexts of meaning, by explicitly interpreting the phenomenon with regard to such contexts of meaning and by discussing the various interpretations in the light of their respective contexts of meaning."
Bela H. Banathy has contributed extensively to the knowledge base of systems theory, human activity in particular. Bela Banathy's last book, ''Guided Evolution of Society: A System View'' presented a cultural evolution of models and ideas exploring "The Journey from Evolutionary Consciousness to Conscious Evolution." He talks about how biological evolution evolved into a cultural evolution, giving examples of how, when prehistoric man developed a language, his tool making evolved as well. [3]


===<small> Critical Systems Theory</small>===
Systems theory refers to a body of thought and way of thinking held among a small minority of thinkers across various disciplines. Systems theory primarily traces itself to a work by biologist Ludwig von Bertalanffy, General System Theory, in which he sought to bring under one philosophical heading his thoughts about organismic structures. Bertalanffy argued [fill in core argument]. Adherents of system theory have gone on to apply Bertalanffy's thought to [fill in details].


Critical systems theory is a soft system methodology which attempts to equalize the power inequities which often thwart SSM.
Jackson writes " privileged stakeholders (in terms of wealth, status, or power) are unlikely to risk their dominant position and submit their privileges to the vagaries of idealized design or whatever."


==<small> Heirarchy Theory</small>==
However, the translation of the German into the English general system theory has "wroth a certain amount of Havoc" writes Ervin Laszlo[] in the preface of von Bertalanffy's book ''Perspectives on General System Theory''.. []


Hierarchy Theory focuses on levels and scale.  A significant degree of emphasis is on the observer thus has been viewed as a theory of observation. For example, an individual human being may be a member of the level i) human, ii) primate, iii) organism or iv) host of a parasite, depending on the relationship of the level in question to those above and below. Of particular interest is the '''Holon''' described as a whole which is also a part of a greater whole.  Principle investigators are economist, Herbert Simon, chemist, Ilya Prigogine, and psychologist, Jean Piaget.  
"The original concept of general system theory was Allgemeine Systemtheorie (or Lehre). Now "Theorie" (or Lehre) just as Wissenschaft (translated Scholarship), has a much broader meaning in German than the closest English words "theory" and "science." A Wissenschaft is any organized body of knowledge, including the Geisteswissenschaften (Scholarship of Arts), which would not be considered true sciences in English usage. And Theorie applies to any systematically presented set of concepts, whether they are empirical, axiomatic, or philosophical. (Lehre comes into the same category, but cannot be properly translated. "Teaching," the closest equivalent, sounds dogmatic and off the mark. However, doctrine can be a translation for it as well.  


==<small> General evolution theory</small> ==
"Thus when von Bertalanffy spoke of Allgemeine Systemtheorie, it was consistent with his view that he was proposing a new perspective, a new way of doing science. It was not directly consistent with an interpretation often put on "general system theory," to wit, that it is a (scientific) "theory of general systems." To criticize it as such is to shoot at straw men. Von Bertalanffy opened up something much broader and of much greater significance than a single theory (which, as we now know, can always be falsified and has usually an ephemeral existence): he created a new paradigm for the development of theories."


Evolution is a tendency toward greater structural complexity, ecological and/or organizational simplicity, more efficient modes of operation, and greater dynamic harmony by means of self-organization.A system by definition is an evolutionary system. A significant feature of a system is emergence. Because the focus is on the interrelationships of a system, these relationships will have emergent properties, properties which cannot be found in the elements when they are isolated. Thus a system is a creator of novel features. The general evolutionary principle thus is this "working together" to form something new such as self-organizing systems do. General evolution theory, based on the integration of the relevant tenets of general system theory, cybernetics, information and communication theory, chaos theory, dynamical systems theory, and nonequilibrium thermodynamics can convey a sound understanding of the laws and dynamics the govern the evolution  of complex systems in the various realms of investigation.


==Social system design ==
* 2006, John N. Warfield, AN INTRODUCTION TO SYSTEMS SCIENCE, World Scientific [5]
Social systems design advocates participative democracy in which those affected by the design are the creators of the design. This requires a working knowledge of the dynamics which govern the interconnected, interdependant and interacting problems. Solutions emerge when the situation is looked at as a whole. While traditional science describes what exists as determined by experiments, classification, analysis and deduction in a objective, rational and neutral way, social system design focuses on understanding, by means of analogy, metaphor, criticism and evaulation to form patterns, conjectures and models as a subjective, creative and emphathetic concern.


==Evolutionary systems design==
* 2001, Kenneth Bausch, The Emerging Consensus in Social Systems Theory. Kluwer Academic, London. ISBN: 0-306-46539-6
A form of systems design that responds to the need for a future-Design (ESD) creating design praxis, that embraces not only human interests and life-spans, but those on planetary and evolutionary planes as well. The primary vehicle for the implementation of ESD is the Evolutionary Learning Community (ELC).


==Process model==
* 2004, Charles François, Encyclopedia of Systems and Cybernetics,  K G Saur, Munich 


An organized arrangement of systems concepts and principles that portray the behavior of a system through time. Its metaphor is the “motion-picture” of “movie” of the system.
* 1999, Charles François, Systemics and Cybernetics in a Historical Perspective


Gyorgy Jaros has looked at information as a process. Of his teleonics concept he writes: "It is argued that these informationally bonded processes are the basic ingredients of life and entities, which appear only as the result of processes, are of secondary importance. Thus, in Teleonics one does not speak of interaction between entities, but interaction between processes."
* 1996, Ervin Laszlo. Systems View of the World. Hampton Press, New Jersy. ISBN: 0-8076-0637-5


==<small>Living systems theory</small>==
* 1982 Fritjof Capra, The Turning Point. Bantum Books. ISBN: 0-0053-01480-3


"By definition, living systems are open, self-organizing systems that have the special characteristics of life and interact with their environment. This takes place by means of information and material-energy exchanges." [3]
* 1985, Len Troncale. The Future of General System Research. Systems Research


The Living Systems Theory of James Grier Miller is described as an open system characterized by information and material flows. The properties ( or behavior) of a system as a whole emerge out of the interaction of the components comprising the system.


In the conceptual system developed by Miller, living systems form eight (8) levels of organization and complexity:


The principle components are cells, in simple, multi-cellular systems; Organs, which are groups of cells; organisms (there are three kinds of organisms: fungi, plants and animals); groups, which contain two or more organisms and their relationships; organizations, which involve one of more groups with their own control systems for doing work; communities, including both individual persons and groups; societies, which are loose associations of communities; and supranational systems, organizations of societies.
* 1975, Gerald M. Weinberg An Introduction to General Systems Thinking (1975 ed., Wiley-Interscience) (2001 ed. Dorset House).  


Regardless of their complexity, they each depend upon the same essential twenty subsystems (or processes) in order to survive and to continue the propagation of their species or types beyond a single generation."The twenty (20) subsystems that process information or material-energy or both account for the survival of living systems, at any level." "Living Systems Theory is a general theory about how all living systems "work," about how they maintain themselves and how they develop and change [4]
* 1968, Ludwig von Bertalanffy General System Theory: Foundations, Development, Applications New York: George Braziller


Process model: An organized arrangement of systems concepts and principles that portray the behavior of a system through time. Its metaphor is the “motion-picture” of “movie” of the system.
==Comments==
Hope you'll forgive my small intrusion here. I've made some minor edits that you should feel free to revert. Made them during a read through with a view to offering a few comments.
There's a lot here that is very interesting, and you have a broad canvas, and I'm very sympathetically inclined. On reading through though, there were a few things that jarred; bold text is I think overused, it shouts too loud for me. The reading list is just too long to be helpful, it didn't seem to be obviously selective nor did it appear to be comprehensive. Some parts of the text are I thought, too much influenced affected by the intrusion of the writer's opinion - I noted especially the section on Warfield as being congratulatory rather than informative. I also thought there was an apparent excess of jargon and definitions, and a corresponding underuse of simple explanatory terms. So, when you talk of Discovery for instance, is this in the natural meaning? in which case doesn't need capitalization, or is it in some internally defined special sense, in which case it seems to need explanation or should else be avoided.[[User:Gareth Leng|Gareth Leng]] 04:18, 26 June 2007 (CDT)
::Your perspective is welcome and refreshing, I changed the bold, but want to keep it in the first paragraph because those words are important. Don't know what to say about the jargon, why else is a encyclopedia for? DId I miss your point? I deleted a couple obvious opinions of mine. Discovery is used by Warfield to label a stage of his methodology but it is used in the conventional "legal" sense. Definitions are important to us because we do redefine many concepts. I like to use them because they can explain a significant concept. Did I miss anything?


==<small> Problematique</small>==
[[User:Thomas Mandel|Thomas Mandel]] 00:48, 27 June 2007 (CDT)


John Warfield writes in his book "Understanding Complexity, Thought and Behavior" about a program which is centered around the relationships among the elements of a complexity. He calls this program the "Work Program of Complexity", designed to illuminate the perplexity of complexity through "learning". The program has two fundamental thrusts , one is toward Discovery and the other is toward Resolution. Discovery has two thrusts, one is Description and the other is Diagnosis. Resolution has two also, Planning and Implementation. The program utilizes "Interactive Management" principles to enable a group to come to grips with a problem situation.  
Many thanks. Of course an article should introduce and explain key technical concepts (jargon).What I was sniping (gently I hope) at are capitalised phrases like "Total Systems Intervention"; the capitalization seems to suggest that these have a very specific meaning, and maybe they do, but if so they are not always explained. I'm not suggesting that you avoid all jargon, but perhaps it should either be explained or avoided.[[User:Gareth Leng|Gareth Leng]] 03:22, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
::Oh, I like to think of myself as the world's greatest promoter of simple explanation, (just kidding) I even have a name for it "Sympology" (not kidding)
Here my hands are tied, I can only report what is going on. But if it is of any consolation, systems theory insofar as it is a transdisciplinary science, must depend on plain language to make its point. The complexities we develop/investigate are best expressed by the metaphors and models we use, so we do not need complex words and hopefully the trend in the future will be tward simple/plain language. I do not agree with the school of thought which contends that comnplex/new ideas must have their own language/jargon. Nor is it possible, so thay say, to create a single universal language (which everyone would have to learn)
We have no choice but to use plain language, that is, after we learn how to talk in that language.  [[User:Thomas Mandel|Thomas Mandel]] 16:25, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
::Re: Capitalization. I am capitalizing words which are capitalized in the field. Total Systems Intervention (TSI)is actually the proper name of a methodology. (It is good that the common definition is confused with the proper name at least in the sense that it can be understood by anyone.)[[User:Thomas Mandel|Thomas Mandel]]


The most difficult step is the first step, that of description. Fraught with pitfalls, killer assumptions, lack of foundatinal principles, dominant personalities,and the like, getting all the contributing factors out into the open requires considerable effort. Warfield uses groups and idea generators to submit viewpoints directed toward a "Trigger Question" After clarification and authenticity, the listing of contributions is interrelated into a "Problematique" A "Problematique" is a modeling using a combination of prose and graphics, permitting a view of all the aspects in a relationship. Prose alone is inadequate to express systemic relationships. If the number of elements in a problem field is large, seeing all of them is usually enlightening.
:Looks like this article is coming along Thomas, good work - keep it up! --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 19:59, 12 July 2007 (CDT)


Once the Problematique is created, and presented in an "observatorium" in such a manner to be worthy of the work involved, a skilled diagnosis/options is formed, a plan/options devised and then implemented.  
::Well, can't say that I disagree with you. I was supposed to do this ten years ago. The big difference today is that there can be no me in it. There is just what happened. What is new is this compendium which Marcus says we never had before. I'm letting the organizaion happen by itself, but I know that after it settles down, I will read about it in Banathy's books. written ten twenty years before. One of the criticisms systems theory faces is that there is no theory. Well, true it is scattered all over the place, but the theory is there. So, writing in uncharted waters, I am wondering what it would take to write the theory...


==<small> Interactive management</small>==
=="Everything is biased"==


==<small> Organizational theory</small>==
It is required that all information be included, let's not define all, so in that spirit, what is the alternative/other/ viewpoint? I didn't think there was an alternative/other viewpoint...So what is the alternative/other viewpoint? [[User:Thomas Mandel|Thomas Mandel]] 00:07, 11 August 2007 (CDT)


A systemic view on organizations is transdisciplinary and integrative. It transcends the perspectives of individual disciplines, integrating them on the basis of a common "code", or more exactly, on the basis of the formal apparatus provided by systems theory. The systems approach gives primacy to the interrelationships. It is from these dynamic interrelationships that new properties of the system emerge.
==Criticism's of systems theory==
My advisor wrote this in response to the objections from Lynn's Education and Research Network.  


==<small> System dynamics</small>==


An aspect of systems theory, system dynamics, is a method for understanding the dynamic behavior of complex systems. ----
a) “working together” means everyone thinking the same.
b)requires that individuals give up their individual beliefs for those of the community
c) systems theory is diametrically opposed to Christianity.
d) systems theory is the foundation upon which Hitler built his dictatorship
e) just as it is the foundation upon which Marxism and fascism are also both built?
f) Systems theory is a man-made concept, defiant of God and God’s will.
g) systems theory under girds communism, fascism and national socialism, all despotic governance structures enslaving people and defying the word of God."


----
----


==Glossary of key terms used by systemists==


Because systems language introduces many new terms and new meanings essential to understanding how a system works, a glossary of many of the significant terms follows:
Well Tom, what does one say.


'''Adaptive capacity:''' An important part of the resilience of systems in the face of a perturbation, helping to minimise loss of function in individual human, and collective social and biological systems.  
Firstly, it is difficult to argue with biased rationality and total conviction....it leaves no room for discussion. To tell a BELIEVER that all belief constructs arise from Mankind by virtue of Man being there and being able to perceive and make sense of those perceptions is like trying to walk on water when you have no experience of this skill. But to be honest, all of us are BELIEVERS to some extent. We develop our worldviews when we are in a developmental period, and when we form into groups that give us our mutual support, we formulate paradigms that direct our modes of practice. I have met many a writer constrained by the boundaries of their own paradigm, unable to apprehend alternative views. This of course stands against the notion of Piaget's notion of operative intelligence, where there is a need for the individual to entertain a form of cognitive projection from which different perspectives can be apprehended and coordinated.  


'''Autopoiesis:''' The process by which a system regenerates itself through the self-reproduction of its own elements and of the network of interactions that characterize them. An autopoietic system renews, repairs, and replicates or reproduces itself in a flow of matter and energy. Note: from a strictly Maturanian point of view, autopoiesis is an essential property of biological/living systems.  
The fact of the matter is that there is absolutely no basis for the criticism of systems theory if it comes from someone with such a bounded cognitive condition. It is purely a local construction that when taken out of its paradigmatic box fails to leave a trail of substance. If they were to try to argue against systems thinking, then it would have to be on the basis of its (soft) constructivist nature, that a system is defined by a viewer who has a basic orientation and set of experiences, and these guide the practice of the defining the system. The theory of the system stands firm as a set of principles that derive from the axiomatic notion of holism. Having said this, the theory of the system holds little without the accompanying theory of cybernetics. They two float together in a self supporting couple. The theory of one needs the theory of the other to be practically useful.  


'''Boundaries:''' The parametric conditions, often vague, always subjectively stipulated, that delimit and define a system and set it apart from its environment.  
One of the most interesting theoretical formulations to have developed over the last 3000 years comes from China through Taoist thinking (influenced as it is by Confucianism), which also strictly conforms to the notion of holism. It too is a system/cybernetics formulation of theory that is fundamentally more systemic than science.  


'''Catastrophe:''' A mathematical description of a sudden and/or radical change in form, or a similar qualitative change in condition; relates to the theories of Réne Thom.  
However, in describing the notions of systems, one must always be careful. Some people might for instance define a system in terms of its parts each of which have purposes. They may then set up the notion of purposes in terms of goals. However, this relatively hard approach would often be anathema to the soft systems person, who believes in the appreciative system, and argues that it is difficult in a complex world to define the boundaries on any part, or to associate purposes with them. Even if this cannot be done, there is still the possibility of using systems constructs through the notion of holism to enable cybernetics processes to be explored. Indeed, perhaps it is possible to claim that systems provides a structure for cybernetics content....This is in fact the formulation that my own work takes, adopting principles of third cybernetics.  
closed system: A state of being isolated from the environment. No system can be completely closed; there are only varying degrees of closure.  


'''Complexity:''' A systemic characteristic that stands for a large number of densely connected parts and multiple levels of embeddedness and entanglement. Not to be confused with complicatedness, which denotes a situation or event that is not easy to understand, regardless of its degree of complexity.  
When one tries to decry the notion of the whole because people do not work together, there are clear reasons why this is the case, and the enlightened critic would try to read some of the voluminous theory (for instance my own) about why this does not occur. One of the principle causes is systemic pathology. Pathologies are endemic in systems, and they occur through many causes. One is that people do not understand other people. In the area of knowledge management for instance, there is the idea that all knowledge is locally created, and that people only understand others from their own experiences that has given them their tacit knowledge. For those who are really interested in being critical of systems theory, they should try moving beyond superficial and elementary reading, and dipping into deeper pools of knowledge. Of the criticisms below, I have not seen one that really holds any water. This is perhaps because they isolated statements are taken out of context, or simply that the writers are so constrained by their own paradigms that they are unable to take the time to read deeply into systems theory.  


'''Culture:''' The result of individual learning processes that distinguish one social group of higher animals from another. In humans culture is the set of products and activities through which humans express themselves and become aware of themselves and the world around them. See cognitive map.  
This is not to say that systems theory is correct and other paradigms are not. We each chose our modes of expression and languages. However, to decry one because of ignorance is not to be forgiven.
(Prof) Maurice Yolles


'''Development:''' The process of liberating a system from its previous set of limiting conditions. It is an amelioration of conditions or quality. See growth and evolution.
Now, my question is where do go to find the counterview? Is it productive and useful if we asked those who know nothing about systems theory? Or do we go to those who have taken the time to learn enough about the subject to make an intelligent criticism?


'''Dissipative structure:''' A term invented by Ilya Prigogine to describe complex chemical structures undergoing the process of chemical change through the dissipation of entropy into their environment, and the corresponding importation of “negentropy” from their environment. Also known as syntropic systems.
== Suggest following lead-in pgraph for general reader ==


'''Embeddedness:''' A state in which one system is nested in another system.


'''Emergence:''' The appearance of novel characteristics exhibited on the level of the whole ensemble, but not by the components in isolation.  
'''System theory''' is a transdisciplinary and multi-perspective scientific field of inquiry concerned with the study of the interrelationships of the constituent elements of organized patterns (systems) of all types &mdash; material and immaterial, static and dynamic. Such  systems consist of sets of elements that interact with one another, statically or dynamically, forming patterns making up a distinguishable ‘whole’, with attributes not found in the parts, and therefore characteristic of the system-as-a-whole. To paraphrase Erich Jantsch,<ref>Citation here</ref> a system becomes observable and definable only through the interrelationships of its constituent elements. Examples of systems include:


'''Entanglement:'''  A state in which the manner of being, or form of existence, of one system is inextricably tied to that of another system or set of systems.  
:*Mechanical: timepieces; automobiles, bridges;
:*Human plus mechanical: flying a jet plane; playing a piano
:*Biological: cells; organ systems (digestive); organisms;
:*Ecological: forests; biosphere'
:*Social: organized societies; clubs;
:*Ideological: isms; philosophies;
:*Procedural: measuring; grading; governmental;
:*Hypothetical/theoretical/scientific: Copernican; Newtonian; Darwinian;
:*Networks: World Wide Web.<br>


'''Entropy:''' In thermodynamics, entropy is a measure of energy that is expended in a physical system but does no useful work, and tends to decrease the organizational order of the system.
Note that all such organized patterned wholes become observable as such only through the interrelationships among their constituent elements.
Environment: The context within which a system exists. It is composed of all things that are external to the system, and it includes everything that may affect the system, and may be affected by it at any given time.  


'''Evolution:''' A cosmic process specified by a fundamental universal flow toward ever increasing complexity that manifests itself through particular events and sequences of events that are not limited to the domain of biological phenomenon, but extend to include all aspects of change in open dynamic systems with a throughput of information and energy. In other words, evolution relates to the formation of stars from atoms, of Homo sapiens from the anthropoid apes, and the formation of complex societies from rudimentary social systems.  
Ervin Laszlo contrasts the systems approach with the classical science approach referred to as reductionism, (reducing to a minimum), as ''a shifting of emphasis from parts to the organization of parts''; from the "component to the dynamic" as he puts it. See text box to right.  Systemists emphasize that it is through the mutually interactive relationships of the system's constituent elements that new properties of the whole arise, a process called 'emergence'. The late Bela H. Banathy regarded 'emergence' to be the "value" of systems theory; as ''this new whole has properties which are not found in the constituent elements''. "We cannot understand the whole bit by bit" he explained.[1]This article describes the origins, scope, concepts, perspectives and contributions of system theory.


'''Evolutionary Development:''' A form of sustainable development concerned with the study of human change in an evolutionary context.


'''Evolutionary Leadership:''' The form of leadership required for successful sustainability management in an evolutionary context.  
--[[User:Anthony.Sebastian|Anthony.Sebastian]] [[User talk:Anthony.Sebastian|(Talk)]] 20:18, 19 August 2007 (CDT)


'''Evolutionary Learning:''' A community that strives toward sustainable pathways for Community (ELC) evolutionary development, in synergistic interaction with its milieu, through individual and collective processes of empowerment, and evolutionary learning. ELC's do not adapt their environment to their needs, nor do they simply adapt to their environment. Rather, they adapt with their environment in a dynamic of mutually sustaining evolutionary co-creation.
Tony, let me say something. I don't know if I am saying it adequately but let me try. It is not the complexification of knowledge that systems theory is about, it is a completely different reality that we see. When we look at the reality in a systemic way, we are looking at different things. A systemic view is not a sophisticated version of the scientific view, it is looking at and seeing a different view. [[User:Thomas Mandel|Thomas Mandel]] 01:26, 21 August 2007 (CDT)


'''Feedback:''' A process by which information concerning the adequacy of the system, its operation, and its outputs are introduced into the system. Negative feedback tells us that there is a discrepancy between what the system produces and what it should produce. It tells us that we should change something in the system so that we can reduce the deviation from the norms stated in the output model of the system. Positive feedback, on the other hand, tells us that the whole system should change, that we should increase the deviation from the present state, and change the output model.  
Just to make the point clear, One of the fundamental ideas in systems theory is what Banathy tells us ""We cannot understand the whole bit by bit" Because systems theory is different, it is imperative that this difference be understood from the beginning. For it is in the betginning that the direction is chosen.  


'''Feedforward:''' A process, akin to feedback, that informs current operations with future ideals, and adjusts the output model accordingly.
==Need help with systems biology section leadin==


'''Function:''' Denotes actions that are required to be carried out in order to meet systems requirements and attain the purpose(s) of the system.
Tony, I need your help. In the systems biology section, I copied a leadin from the systemsbiology website, I requested permission to reprint it but did not receive a reply. I have it hidden in the edit copy. Can you come up with a leadin for the systems biology section? What they write sounds good, except for the subsystem is a childsystem stuff. Let me know what you think?[[User:Thomas Mandel|Thomas Mandel]] 23:54, 26 August 2007 (CDT)


'''Functions/structure:''' Structural functionalism is a systems model that organizes in relational arrangements model systems concepts and principles that present an image of a system in a given moment of time. A metaphor for this is a “still-picture” or “snapshot” of the system.  
Well here it is --Summary found at systems biology institute website --"In summary, systems are comprised of parts which interact. The interaction of these parts gives rise to new properties and functions which are key to the system. We call these new properties and functions "emergent properties". Because emergent properties are the result of interactions between the parts, they can not be attributed to any single parts of the system. This makes systems irreducible. A system is unlikely to be fully understood by taking it apart and studying each part on its own. (We cannot understand an author's message by studying individual words; we cannot appreciate a forest by looking at individual trees.) To understand systems, and to be able to fully understand a system's emergent properties, systems need be studied as a whole. This recognition that complex systems, especially life, are truly understood from knowledge of the interactions of their component parts is fundamental to systems biology and all the research at the Institute for Systems Biology."


'''Heterarchy:''' An ordering of things in which there is no single peak or leading element, and which element is dominant at a given time depends on the total situation, often used in contrast to hierarchy, also a vertical arrangement of entities (systems and their subsystems), usually ordered from the top downwards rather than from the bottom upwards.
You might try to make the first and last sentence consistent.
[[User:Thomas Mandel|Thomas Mandel]] 13:10, 27 August 2007 (CDT)


'''Holarchy:''' A concept invented by Arthur Köestler to describe behavior that is partly a function of individual nature and partly a function of the nature of the embedding system, generally operating in a bottom upwards fashion.  
==Comments==
Hello Thomas. I came across your comprehensive article on Systems Theory and Systems Biology, I haven't had time to read it more carefully (there is a lot of information there, so do keep up the good work) but I think a mention of what electrical and control engineers and applied mathematicians know as a mathematical systems theory is conspicuously missing. This is an established field and goes under the AMS classification of 93--xx (systems theory; control), see http://www.ams.org/msc. Systems thinking has from early on been a central concept in modern control engineering and researchers in the field have contributed a great deal to the development of various rigorous mathematical concepts and tools for systems analysis and synthesis (for example, stability analysis) and now starting to be applied to fields like systems biology and complex networks.  


'''Holism:''' A non-reductionist descriptive and investigative strategy for generating explanatory principles of whole systems. Attention is focused on the emergent properties of the whole rather than on the reductionist behavior of the isolated parts. The approach typically involves and generates empathetic, experiential, and intuitive understanding, not merely analytic understanding, since by the definition of the approach, these forms are not truly separable (as nothing is).
I'm also puzzled why so much space is devoted to the opinion of Lynn from the LEARN website and why she should be given status as a sort of authority on the subject. In particular, her arguments seem to be leaning towards pseudoscience and begs the question of whether her opinion is suitable for inclusion in the article. [[User:Hendra I. Nurdin|Hendra I. Nurdin]] 21:47, 15 September 2007 (CDT)


'''Hologram:''' A three-dimensional photograph created by the interference pattern of two laser beams with the result that each discrete aspect of the image contains all the information necessary to reconstruct the entire image so that, in effect, the whole is contained in all the parts.
::I was asked to present opposing thoughts and her thoughts are as opposing as it can get. Because the article is under construction, I temporaily included all her comments[[User:Thomas Mandel|Thomas Mandel]] 00:34, 17 September 2007 (CDT)


'''Holon:''' A whole in itself as well as a part of a larger system.  
==After further reading==
Oops ... Okay, after more careful reading this "system theory" is related to but not quite the same as the systems theory I was thinking of (as it is understood in (control) engineering, see, for example, [http://www.math.niu.edu/~rusin/known-math/index/93-XX.html]). May I suggest changing the name of this article to "Systems theory (philosophy)", to distinguish it to the systems theory of engineering? Thanks. [[User:Hendra I. Nurdin|Hendra I. Nurdin]] 00:29, 16 September 2007 (CDT)


Human Activity Systems: Designed social systems organized for a purpose, which they attain by carrying out specific functions.
::I do not understand why you don't first of all include your mathematical systems theory into the article, I don't know everything, and if you feel that mathematical systems theory is different and separate rename your article to mathematical systems theory? You are not suggesting that we rename our article so that you can use "systems theory" yourself? [[User:Thomas Mandel|Thomas Mandel]] 21:08, 16 September 2007 (CDT)
Learning: A lifelong process that at the core of adaptive capacity. In human terms it involves a) challenges the learner’s perspective and facilitates the expansion of his/her worldview; b) promotes human fulfillment; c) enables the learner to cope with uncertainty and complexity; and d) empowers the learner to creatively shape change and design the future.


'''Lowerarchy:''' A specific type of hierarchy involving a ‘bottom up’ arrangement of entities such that the few are influenced by the many.  
I would like to propose that you consult someone with at least some familiarity with General Systems Theory to see what sort of adequate resolution might be found.  Perhaps Anthony Sebastian.  I think it might be useful to make [[systems theory]] a [[CZ:disambiguation|disambiguation]] page.


'''Model building:''' A disciplined inquiry by which a conceptual (abstract) representation of a system is constructed or a representation of expected outcomes/output is portrayed.
Philosophers know nothing about General Systems Theory, as far as I know, and this article doesn't particularly sound like philosophy to me. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 21:31, 16 September 2007 (CDT)


'''Open system:''' A state and characteristics of that state in which a system continuously interacts with its environment. Open systems are those that maintain their state and exhibit the characteristics of openness previously mentioned.  
Anthony Sebastian is not an expert in systems theory, AND systems theory is not just a philosophy, your people put that tag on it. I am sorry that some are not aware of our field, but isn't that what a encyclopedia is supposed to do? Control theory is related to Cybernetics, a certain kind of system. Note that her links refer to Wiener, the founder of cybernetics.  Neither cybernetics nor control theory is more general than systems theory. Just because some people choose to refer to systems theory does not mean that their particular theory IS all of systems theory.  From the article --
"Fritjof Capra summarizes in his book: The Turning Point; "Systems thinking is a discipline for seeing wholes. It is a framework for seeing interrelationships rather than things, for seeing patterns of change rather than static “snapshots.” It is a set of general principles—distilled over the course of the twentieth century, spanning fields as diverse as the physical and social sciences, engineering, and management. ...During the last thirty years, these tools have been applied to understand a wide range of corporate, urban, regional, economic, political, ecological, and even psychological systems. And systems thinking is a sensibility—for the subtle interconnectedness that gives living systems their unique character."


'''Organizational learning:''' A process of developing organizational capacity and human capability to articulate and continuously examine the purposes, underlying perspectives and assumptions, and individual and organizational values in view of the (a) performance of the organization, and (b) the changing characteristics and expectations of the environment(s) in which the organization is embedded.
In the end it is what the field is doing that matters, and this field is populated by many many more than just control engineers. The term systems theory has been used for fifty years as a general designation and it is not correct for any particular aspect of systems to claim the name as its own. If that were so, then why not management systems too?  Or any of the vast number of disciplines that use systems theory?  Why not use the correct wording "control systems" they did it right on their pages "systems theory - control" [[User:Thomas Mandel|Thomas Mandel]] 00:14, 17 September 2007 (CDT)


'''Paradigms:''' The set of fundamental beliefs, axioms, and assumptions that order and provide coherence to our perception of what is and how it works; a basic world view; also, example cases and metaphors. See cognitive map.  
You might want to follow your o0wn instructions copied here - "The title (i.e., the word or phrase in the title) is used in multiple ways, and the sense discussed in the article is not the most common sense. For example, there is a line of cosmetics called "Philosophy"; the article about that might live at Philosophy (cosmetics). The article about deep thought continues to live at Philosophy--no parentheses needed. "


'''Process model:''' An organized arrangement of systems concepts and principles that portray the behavior of a system through time. Its metaphor is the “motion-picture” of “movie” of the system.
so that her article would be systems theory (control)


'''Reductionism:''' One kind of scientific orientation that seeks to understand phenomena by a) breaking them down into their smallest possible parts: a process known as analytic reductionism, or conversely b) conflating them to a one-dimensional totality: a process known as holistic reductionism.
[[User:Thomas Mandel|Thomas Mandel]] 00:28, 17 September 2007 (CDT)


'''Relationship:''' In the most general sense, a relationship is an interaction between the elements of a system. If the elements of the system are things, then the relationship is what those things are doing to each other. This interaction results in emergent properties which are perceived as the whole such as the wetness of the two gases of water.
:Many people doing Hendra's kind of systems theory would disagree that they use your kind of systems theory. I think the phrase "systems theory" is ambiguous and that neither Hendra's kind of systems theory nor your kind can "claim" the title [[Systems theory]]. So, I agree with the proposal at [[Talk:System theory]] that we call one article [[Systems theory (engineering)]] and the other one [[Systems theory (interdisciplinary field)]] or [[Systems theory (cybernetics)]] or [[General systems theory]] or whatever you prefer. -- [[User:Jitse Niesen|Jitse Niesen]] 07:14, 17 September 2007 (CDT)


'''Subsystem:''' A major component of a system. It is made up of two or more interacting and interdependent components. Subsystems of a system interact in order to attain their own purpose(s) and the purpose(s) of the system in which they are embedded.
::Of course you have a source which supports your opinion, may I see it please? (transdisciplinary, not interdisciplinary)[[User:Thomas Mandel|Thomas Mandel]] 09:09, 17 September 2007 (CDT)
Suprasystem: The entity that is composed of a number of component systems organized in interacting relationships in order to serve their embedding suprasystem.


'''Sustainable development:''' A process of human development (individual, societal, or global) that can be said to be socially and ecologically sustainable if it involves an adaptive strategy that ensures the evolutionary maintenance of an increasingly robust and supportive environment. Such a process enhances the possibility that human and other life will flourish in this planet indefinitely.  
:::Tom, these editors know your position: you don't want anything but your article to live on [[systems theory]].  This doesn't appear to be acceptable to the editors. If you don't have any positive proposal, let them decide on what the next step is. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 09:30, 17 September 2007 (CDT)


'''Sustainability:''' The ability of a system to maintain itself with no loss of function for extended periods of time. In human terms it is the creative and responsible stewardship of resources — human, Management natural, and financial — to generate stakeholder value while contributing to the well-being of current and future generations of all beings.  
::::Systems theory is not systems engineering. Systems theory is a term that has been used in the systems community for fifty years as a general umbrella term. Systems engineering is a special case or application of systems theory, that is, a certain kind of system. Bertalanffy defined systems engineering as "Scientific planning, design,evaluation and construction of man-machine systems. My reference is from the International Encyclopedia of Systems and Cybernetics. ISBN 3-598-11357-9. Pg 359 The two editors did not cite any sources and only provided their opinions which I had assumed was not allowed. We were on the verge of creating a student research project here. I think, however, it would be better if we did it on our own Wiki. I would like to thank you however, I have been invited to write an article for the journal World Futures, which would not have happened if it wasn't for you.[[User:Thomas Mandel|Thomas Mandel]] 17:33, 17 September 2007 (CDT)


'''Synchrony:''' Also synchronicity. In engineering; concurrence of periods and/or phases; simultaneity of events or motions: contemporaneous occurrences. In evolutionary systems thinking; a fortunate coincidence of phenomenon and/or of events.
:::::No one was claiming that systems theory is systems engineering (see a related post of mine in the Section "Research paper" below). Even the engineering sense of "systems theory" is not the same as systems engineering. You keep touting this Encyclopedia of Systems and Cybernetics as a reference yet it is 1) only one reference, 2) written by a proponent for Systems Theory 3) it is only an encyclopedia. I have given references to Systems Theory as it is understood in the engineering and applied mathematics world in my postings, for instance see one of my postings above and [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Talk:Systems_theory here]. [[User:Hendra I. Nurdin|Hendra I. Nurdin]] 17:48, 17 September 2007 (CDT)
Synergy: Also system. Synergy is the process by which a system generates emergent properties resulting in the condition in which a system may be considered more than the sum of its parts, and equal to the sum of its parts plus their relationships. This resulting condition can be said to be one of synergy.  


'''Syntony:''' In evolutionary systems thinking; evolutionary consonance; the occurrence and persistence of an evolutionarily tuned dynamic regime. Conscious intention aligned with evolutionary purpose; more loosely, the embodiment and manifestation of conscious evolution; a purposeful creative aligning and tuning with the evolutionary flows of one’s milieu. In traditional radio engineering; resonance.  
::::::In reply to Thomas' question, the opinion that systems theory in the engineering sense is not systems theory in the von Bertalanffy sense can be found in a book review by Brian Ingalls in ''IEEE Control Systems Magazine'', April 2006, pp. 95ff. "Within the control community, systems theory is typically thought of as the foundation for control analysis. Indeed, it is common practice to intertwine systems and control in a work on systems theory. An '''alternative approach''' is embodied in the general systems theory of von Bertalanffy and others, who define the field in much more general terms. The approach taken by Hinrichsen and Pritchard in ''Mathematical Systems Theory I'' is, as decreed above, that systems theory is a branch of mathematics." (references deleted, my emphasis).
::::::I believe Thomas Mandel when he says that [[Systems theory (transdisciplinary field)]] is a better title then [[Systems theory (interdisciplinary field)]]. -- [[User:Jitse Niesen|Jitse Niesen]] 21:03, 17 September 2007 (CDT)


'''Syntropy:''' The process of negentropy-importation. A syntropic system is a dissipative structure.
==See research paper==


'''System:''' A group of interacting components that conserves some identifiable set of relations with the sum of their components plus their relationships (i.e., the system itself) conserving some identifiable set of relationships to other entities (including other systems).  
It may be helpful if you read the research paper published in the journal Systems Research and Behavoiral Science
titled "Re-evaluating Systems Engineering as a Framework for Tackling Systems Issues by Stephen C. Cook and Timothy L.J. Ferris. Syst. Res. Vol. 24. No. 2 169-181 (2007). They write from the University of South Australia.
"As modern systems engineering practice concerns broader contextual issues than just the technological product systems, system engineers are comng to adopt a wider , more abstract position with respect to the nature of the system, and arriving at a view more consistent with the view held by other system thinking practitioners. In the newer understanding of systems engineering the systems of interest encompass the entire set of elements leading to the capability to make an impact in the world, that is: the end product system, the enabling system, the process system and the impact of of these systems in their environments of operation; a set of factors known collectively in Australian Defence circles as Fundamental Inputs to Capability
[[User:Thomas Mandel|Thomas Mandel]]
::This is talking about Systems Engineering, which is a different beast from the engineering Systems Theory and your General Systems Theory (though the latter would claim Systems Engineering to be a sub-discipline). Please don't forget to sign your name Tom so that people can quickly identify who wrote what. [[User:Hendra I. Nurdin|Hendra I. Nurdin]] 17:17, 17 September 2007 (CDT)


'''System Domains:''' Philosophy; Theory; Methodology; Application.
==Acknowledge prior research==


From http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/CYBSWHAT.html


'''System-environment:''' A model to examine and define a system in its model context and to organize systems concepts and principles that are relevant to system-environment interactions.  
What are Cybernetics and Systems Science?
Cybernetics and Systems Science (also: "(General) Systems Theory" or "Systems Research") constitute a somewhat fuzzily defined academic domain, that touches virtually all traditional disciplines, from mathematics, technology and biology to philosophy and the social sciences. It is more specifically related to the recently developing "sciences of complexity", including AI, neural networks, dynamical systems, chaos, and complex adaptive systems. Its history dates back to the 1940's and 1950's when thinkers such as Wiener, von Bertalanffy, Ashby and von Foerster founded the domain through a series of interdisciplinary meetings.
Systems theory or systems science argues that however complex or diverse the world that we experience, we will always find different types of organization in it, and such organization can be described by concepts and principles which are independent from the specific domain at which we are looking. Hence, if we would uncover those general laws, we would be able to analyse and solve problems in any domain, pertaining to any type of system. The systems approach distinguishes itself from the more traditional analytic approach by emphasizing the interactions and connectedness of the different components of a system. Although the systems approach in principle considers all types of systems, it in practices focuses on the more complex, adaptive, self-regulating systems which we might call "cybernetic".  


'''Systematic thinking:''' Any methodical step-by-step approach that is carried out according to a pre-determined algorithm or a fixed plan.  
Many of the concepts used by system scientists come from the closely related approach of cybernetics: information, control, feedback, communication... Cybernetics, deriving from the Greek word for steersman (kybernetes), was first introduced by the mathematician Wiener, as the science of communication and control in the animal and the machine (to which we now might add: in society and in individual human beings). It grew out of Shannon's information theory, which was designed to optimize the transmission of information through communication channels, and the feedback concept used in engineering control systems. In its present incarnation of "second-order cybernetics", its emphasis is on how observers construct models of the systems with which they interact (see constructivism).


'''Systems approach:''' A view that perceives phenomena as a system and deals with problem situations and opportunities that emerge by the application of systems thinking.  
In fact, cybernetics and systems theory study essentially the same problem, that of organization independent of the substrate in which it is embodied. Insofar as it is meaningful to make a distinction between the two approaches, we might say that systems theory has focused more on the structure of systems and their models, whereas cybernetics has focused more on how systems function, that is to say how they control their actions, how they communicate with other systems or with their own components, ... Since structure and function of a system cannot be understood in separation, it is clear that cybernetics and systems theory should be viewed as two facets of a single approach.


'''Systems design:''' A decision-oriented disciplined inquiry that aims at the construction of a model that is an abstract representation of a future system.  
This insight has had as a result that the two domains have in practice almost merged: many, if not most, of the central associations, journals and conferences in the field include both terms, "systems" and "cybernetics", in their title. In spite of this lack of strict subdivisions, though, the domain is rather fragmented, with many different approaches, similar in some respects, different in others, existing side-by-side. Many of these "schools", such as autopoietic systems, anticipatory systems, living systems, viable systems or soft systems, are associated with a particular theorist or thinker, respectively Maturana, Rosen, Miller, Beer and Checkland. As a result, the cybernetics and systems domain lacks clear foundations. Yet, we, in the Principia Cybernetica Project, believe that the commonalities are much larger than the differences, and therefore it is worth attempting to integrate the different approaches in a common conceptual framework.  


'''Systems thinking:''' An internalized manifestation (in the thinking of individuals or social systems) of systems concepts, systems principles, and systems models.  
Some excellent, easy to read, introductory books on cybernetics and systems can be downloaded freely from our Principia Cybernetica library. Together with our dictionary, and bibliography of basic books and papers, this should be sufficient for an introductory course in the domain. The following links to other websites provide further introductory material and references.  


'''Wholeness:''' In reference to systems, the condition in which systems are seen to be structurally divisible, but functionally indivisible wholes with emergent properties.
Outside links:  


==References==
Alan Scrivener's Curriculum for Cybernetics and Systems Theory
Felix Geyer's excellent review paper on cybernetics and its applications to social systems
General Systems Theory and Earth Science: an introduction to systems thinking
Paul Pangaro's definition of Cybernetics in the Macmillan Encyclopedia of Computers
an introduction to systems thinking, (especially systems dynamics) by Gene Bellinger
general information on cybernetics from the ASC
the ISSS project developing a primer on systems science
Educational Cybernetics: a course by Gary Boyd at Concordia University
description of an introductory course on Cybernetics and Systems Theory
another course description on Systems Theory
a digest of systems theory, consisting of excerpts from basic books and papers
Systems Science Archives (mostly French) of the European Systems Union
Chris Lucas' introduction to 'Cybernetics and Stochastic Systems'
[http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Talk:Systems_theory/Notes&diff=prev&oldid=100167080 Revision as of 01:27, 18 September 2007 Thomas Mandel]


* 2006, John N. Warfield, AN INTRODUCTION TO SYSTEMS SCIENCE, World Scientific [5]  
::It is unfortunate that you are not familar with systems theory, but isn't that what an encyclopedia is for? But of course it is understandable because systems theory is a very difficult subject to understand simply because the mode of inquiry is focused on the interaction between entities rather than the "mainstream" perspective on parts. However this is no excuse for professionals to ignore it. As far as small pockets of proponents, if you would have read the entire article you may have noticed the listing of a dozen or so societies and even a federation of societies and as many journals dedicated to systems research. It is not a valid argument to assume that only a minority of scientists are familar with systems thoery, ALL of science began as a minority, and it can be argued that none of them, save mathematics, are practiced by a majority of scientists. Your arguments might work in Wikipedia but here? I know it is difficult to convince a blind person that there is such a thing as color, but this does not mean whatsoever that there is no such thing as color. Systems theory is about how things work together, and maybe in a world dominated by the Darwinian paradigm, such a notion is universally rejected, but the fact of the matter is that the Universe does in fact work together. Take a look at the systems biology article and also systemsbiology.org website. Then tell me about mainstream. Notice that they have only reference to Bertalanffy. So did this person rediscover the whole ball of wax?[[User:Thomas Mandel|Thomas Mandel]] 22:59, 17 September 2007 (CDT)
::::ps Web    Scholar    Results 1 - 10 of about 134,000,000 for systems theory. (0.08 seconds) [[User:Thomas Mandel|Thomas Mandel]] 23:15, 17 September 2007 (CDT)
:::I am familiar with a "systems theory" which advocates systems thinking and synthesis, not just analysis (frankly, I don't know where this claim that mainstream science merely has "perspective on parts" is coming from), but admittedly not with your grand unified version. A grand unified anything should already raise a red flag for most professionals. No one is blind to anything, I did some reading and it seems to me that the supporters of systems theory themselves admit that systems theory lacks a clear foundation (as stated in the first article from Principia Cybernetica you posted above) and it lies at the "fringe" of science. For the latter, see for example [http://www.isss.org/1998incm.htm G. A. Swanson's 1998 ISSS incoming presidential speech]. P.S. your response is verging on being inflammatory, which is against CZ policy. [[User:Hendra I. Nurdin|Hendra I. Nurdin]] 23:55, 17 September 2007 (CDT)


* 2001, Kenneth Bausch, The Emerging Consensus in Social Systems Theory. Kluwer Academic, London.  ISBN: 0-306-46539-6
{{inflammatory}}


* 2004, Charles François, Encyclopedia of Systems and Cybernetics, K G Saur, Munich 
"Reductionism: “…imagine a materialistic philosophy that claims that all complex entities (including proteins, cells, organisms, ecosystems) can be completely explained by the properties of their component parts. Such an epistemological position is called reductionism, and it is the basis for most of physics and chemistry, and much of biology….. In the reductionist epistemology of science, chemistry and biology are not ultimately independent disciplines, because they will eventually have all their explanations “reduced” to the terms of physics. The reductionist epistemology and methodology is strictly analytical.”


* 1999, Charles François, Systemics and Cybernetics in a Historical Perspective
"Holism: ”Let us imagine, though, another (ontologically) materialistic philosophy. Here, complex wholes are inherently greater than the sum of their parts in the sense that the properties of each part are dependent upon the context of the part within the whole in which they operate. Thus, when we try to explain how the whole system behaves, we have to talk about the context of the whole and cannot get away talking only about the parts. This philosophical stance is variously called wholism, holism, or organicism.”


* 1996, Ervin Laszlo. Systems View of the World. Hampton Press, New Jersy. ISBN: 0-8076-0637-5
[[User:Thomas Mandel|Thomas Mandel]] 08:51, 18 September 2007 (CDT)


* 1982 Fritjof Capra, The Turning Point. Bantum Books. ISBN: 0-0053-01480-3
==21st Century science==
from http://www.systemsbiology.org/Intro_to_ISB_and_Systems_Biology/Systems_Biology_--_the_21st_Century_Science


* 1985, Len Troncale. The Future of General System Research. Systems Research
Traditional biology — the kind most of us studied in high school and college, and that many generations of scientists before us have pursued — has focused on identifying individual genes, proteins and cells, and studying their specific functions. But that kind of biology can yield relatively limited insights about the human body.  


As an analogy, if you wanted to study an automobile, and focused on identifying the engine, seat belts, and tail lights, and studied their specific functions, you would have no real understanding of how an automobile operates. More important, you would have no understanding of how to effectively service the vehicle when something malfunctions. So too, a traditional approach to studying biology and human health has left us with a limited understanding of how the human body operates, and how we can best predict, prevent, or remedy potential health problems. Biologists, geneticists, and doctors have had limited success in curing complex diseases such as cancer, HIV, and diabetes because traditional biology generally looks at only a few aspects of an organism at a time.


As scientists have developed the tools and technologies which allow them to delve deeper into the foundations of biological activity — genes and proteins — they have learned that these components almost never work alone. They interact with each other and with other molecules in highly structured but incredibly complex ways, similar to the complex interactions among the countless computers on the Internet. Systems biology seeks to understand these complex interactions, as these are the keys to understanding life.


* 1975, Gerald M. Weinberg An Introduction to General Systems Thinking (1975 ed., Wiley-Interscience) (2001 ed. Dorset House).  
The individual function and collective interaction of genes, proteins and other components in an organism are often characterized together as an interaction network. Indeed, understanding this interplay of an organism´s genome and environmental influences from outside the organism (nature and nurture) is crucial to developing a — systems — understanding of an organism that will ultimately transform our understanding of human health and disease.  


* 1968, Ludwig von Bertalanffy General System Theory: Foundations, Development, Applications New York: George Braziller
Systems biology is still in its infancy; we are at the turning point in our understanding of what the future holds for biology and human medicine. The Institute for Systems Biology is pioneering this rich new opportunity. "


{{inflammatory}}


[[User:Thomas Mandel|Thomas Mandel]] 09:01, 18 September 2007 (CDT)


Member Organizations of the International Federation for Systems Research (IFSD
== Shall we delete this page, too? ==
Tom, you have gone ahead and deleted the article you were working on.  Unless you want me to restore it, I don't see what the point is of this talk page.  In fact, unless you can give me a coherent answer why we have it, I'm inclined to delete it.  The purpose of talk pages is to improve articles.  There is no article left here to talk about.


::American society for Cybernetics
No one, of course, is attempting to diminish the efforts of systems theory.  My only reason for insisting that you not work on this article in the main namespace has nothing to do with systems theory per se.  It is that it is obviously contrary to [[CZ:Neutrality Policy]], and you so far have not rendered it very much less obviously biased in favor of systems theory.  --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 09:57, 18 September 2007 (CDT)


Asociation Argentins de Teria General de Sistemas y Cibernetica
::Larry, I have no problem with you, your points were correct and well taken. I also have no problem with keeping the article out of main namespace until it is acceptable to you, it's just that I have not even attempted to neutralize it, I still am in the collection phase and have been researching complexity theory which is not easy. I have kept my own personal view out of it which was an enlightening experience for me.


Asociation Latinamericana de Sistemas
My problem is with those editors who have never heard of systems theory and thus conclude that it is not mainstream, is fringe science, a minority view, and so on without doing the requisite research themselves. That is not how science is supposed to be done. "Wherefore thou does not know thou does not speak" Google reports 134,000,000 listings for systems theory. Over and over I had to fight this battle with some of your people. I mean, the whole point of an encyclopedia is to educate, what kind of sense is it to believe that "I don't know about it so it must not be important enough for me to learn about it." And now someone wants me to change the name because she wants to use it her way and she too never heard of systems theory outside her engineering perspective. Then she has her friend support her and suddenly we are at Wikipedia again...The fact of the matter is that I did include systems engineering in the article, based on a research paper published in a journal. She has provided no sources for her conclusions whatsoever, and on top of it she demeans my sources. This is exactly what they do at Wikipedia. Systems theory as nomenclature has been used by the systems community for fifty years. We also have systems thinking, systems approach, systems methodology and others, each meaning the same thing but with different purposes. For example "systems thinking" is an internalization of systems philosophy. The article has been reviewed by many systems people, one of which is the president of a system Group in France. I have received many letters of praise, one stating that we don't have a compendium such as this. What we have is tens of thousands technical papers written by Phd's suitable for publication in a journal. I am the chair of the Primer group and it is my purpose to write for the general public. The problem I believe is that the general public is not aware of systemic principles because they are known by many different names. Complexity science is merely complex systems theory utilizing mathematics such as differential equations. Almost all of new science is in some way a kind of systems theory. Nothing weird about that, systems theory is about how things work together, and what is new about that is when things work together novel things emerge, usually with properties that the parts didn't have. Table salt is made of two poisons working together.


Asociation Mexicana de la Ciencias de Systemas
So, Yes you can restore the article if you want to, but I will not negotiate on the title. I didn't make the title up, it has been in use by our community of scholars for a very long time. And it is that which we ought to be reporting on, not the opinions of certain editors no matter who they are.


Asociation Mexicana de Systemas y Cibernetica
Thomas Mandel Chair, the Primer Group, International Society for the System Sciences. [[User:Thomas Mandel|Thomas Mandel]] 17:11, 18 September 2007 (CDT)


Association Francaise de Science des Systemes Cybernnetiques
{{inflammatory}}


Australian and New Zealand Systems Group
{{inflammatory}}


Bulgarian Society for Systems Research
(A theory of everything is in principle impossible because something can not be everything) 
Centre for Hypercursion and Anticipation in Ordered Systems
Here's what Ervin Laszlo, author of 84 books and 350 articles wrote 
"However, the translation of the German into the English general system theory has "wroth a certain amount of Havoc" writes Ervin Laszlo[] in the preface of von Bertalanffy's book ''Perspectives on General System Theory''.. []   
 
"The original concept of general system theory was Allgemeine Systemtheorie (or Lehre). Now "Theorie" (or Lehre) just as Wissenschaft (translated Scholarship), has a much broader meaning in German than the closest English words "theory" and "science." A Wissenschaft is any organized body of knowledge, including the Geisteswissenschaften (Scholarship of Arts), which would not be considered true sciences in English usage. And Theorie applies to any systematically presented set of concepts, whether they are empirical, axiomatic, or philosophical. (Lehre comes into the same category, but cannot be properly translated. "Teaching," the closest equivalent, sounds dogmatic and off the mark. However, doctrine can be a translation for it as well.   
"Thus when von Bertalanffy spoke of Allgemeine Systemtheorie, it was consistent with his view that he was proposing a new perspective, a new way of doing science. It was not directly consistent with an interpretation often put on "general system theory," to wit, that it is a (scientific) "theory of general systems." '''To criticize it as such is to shoot at straw men'''. Von Bertalanffy opened up something much broader and of much greater significance than a single theory (which, as we now know, can always be falsified and has usually an ephemeral existence): he created a new paradigm for the development of theories."   
Kenneth Boulding writes in the 1968 International Encyclopedia of the Social Sciences, "The task of general systems theory is to find the most general conceptual framework in which a scientific theory or technological problem can be placed without losing the essential features of the theory or problem." []  + 
Bertalanffy writes: "There appear to exist general system laws which apply to any system of a particular type, irrespective of the particular properties of the systems and the elements involved. Compared to the analytical procedure of classical science with resolution into component elements and one-way or linear causality as basic category, the investigation of organized wholes of many variables requires new categories of interaction, transaction, organization, teleology...” []The proponents of general systems theory see in it the focal point of resynthesis of knowledge." []  + 
 
 
Banathy describes how systemists work with general principles -"By observing various types of systems and studying their behavior, we can recognize characteristics that are common to all systems. Once we have identified and described a set of concepts that are common to the systems, and observed and discovered among some of them certain relationships, we can construct from them General Systems Principles. Thus, a system principle emerges from an interaction/integration of related concepts. Next, we are in the position to look for relationships among principles and organize related principles into certain conceptual schemes we call Systems Models. This process of starting from observation and arriving at the construction of systems models constitutes the First Stage of developing a systems view." 
 
{{civil}}
[[User:Thomas Mandel|Thomas Mandel]] 19:43, 18 September 2007 (CDT)


Cybernetics Society
{{freshstart}}


Deutsche Gesellschaft fur Kybernetik
==Fresh Start==
Gesellschaft fur Wirtschaft und Sozialkybernetik
Okay, there is a question on the floor here about the best way to use the article space named 'System theory'. While I expect some understandable disagreement, please keep your discourse professional and on topic.  This is not that hard.  Personal inuendo only makes it difficult to come to an agreement.  Common courtesy and an occasional please and thank you can go a long way. --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 21:18, 18 September 2007 (CDT)


Globl Institute of Flexible Systems
I have placed an archive box at the top of the page.  To archive text, just cut it from the talk page and click the red Archive 1 link on the box and paste the material there. --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 10:03, 19 September 2007 (CDT)


Greek Systems Society
==Starting again afresh -- Review of journals list==
Okay, so let's get back to an objective discussion. Many thanks to Matt Innis for his intervention.


Hellenic Society for System Studies
Thomas, may I suggest that the journal "International Journal of Systems Science" be removed from your list of journals for general systems theory? This journal is not dedicated nor relevant to general systems theory in the sense presented in you article, hence I strongly feel it is ''misleading'' to include it as such in the article. Here are my arguments:


Institute Andino de Sistemas
1) This journal publishes ''technical'' engineering papers which are more in line with [[systems theory (engineering)]] and is reasonably known within control engineering circles, just check titles of recent papers published at http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/title~content=t713697751. Compare this with papers from another journal you list [http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/mcb/067 kybernetes]. Clearly the nature of the papers published in these journals are different.


International Society for the Systems Sciences
2) The [http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/title~db=all~content=t713697751~tab=editorialboard Editorial Board] of this journal are engineering academics, mostly systems and control engineers.


International Society of knowledge and System Science
3) The targeted audience for this journal is as follows (see [http://www.tandf.co.uk/journals/journal.asp?issn=0020-7721&linktype=7 here]):


Internatiohnal Systems Institute
"Readership


Italian Association for Research on Systems
The journal is aimed at advanced research workers, and development engineers, intelligent and manufacturing engineers in industry and universities who have an interest in the application of modelling, simulation, optimization and control to specific systems.


Japan association for Social and Economic Syst3em Studies
All published research articles in this journal have undergone rigorous peer review, based on initial editor screening and anonymous refereeing by independent expert referees."


Korean Society for Systems Science Research
In particular, in (3) I emphasize the "... modelling, simulation, optimization and control to specific systems." This is essentially the scope and tools of [[systems theory (engineering)]]. Please try make the content of the article as accurate as possible. Thanks. [[User:Hendra I. Nurdin|Hendra I. Nurdin]] 07:18, 19 September 2007 (CDT)


Learned Society of Praxiology
:Sorry, my intent is to include everything pertaining to systems,
if you feel that "control" is not part of systems theory then you might consider removing systems theory from your vocabulary.
Thank you. [[User:Thomas Mandel|Thomas Mandel]] 19:59, 19 September 2007 (CDT)


Management Science Society of Ireland
::Then your article would be misleading people and perhaps it should just be deleted -- is this a sort of article that the general public should see in CZ? The point is that you are insinuating that this journal provides some kind of support for general systems theory (or movement to be more precise), its believes and goals, which it does not. No, control theory is indeed not part of this very general and vague notion of systems theory that you are advocating, it's a distortion of reality. You have to be be frank in your article that this theory is not generally accepted. Thanks. [[User:Hendra I. Nurdin|Hendra I. Nurdin]] 20:20, 19 September 2007 (CDT)


Polish Systems Society
:::http://journals.isss.org/index.php/proceedings50th/article/view/377/144 Here] I found a paper published in your ISSS journal (from http://journals.isss.org/index.php/proceedings50th/issue/current this 2006 proceedings]) from a critical supporter on his view of the current state of the theory and the movement for other CZ editors and authors who may wish to read it and make a judgement for themselves. Thanks. [[User:Hendra I. Nurdin|Hendra I. Nurdin]] 20:30, 19 September 2007 (CDT)


Slovendian Society for Systems Research
::You might try reading the article, especially the part about what General systems theory means in the original German. Your assumptions are WRONG. Systems theory IS NOT about a theory of anything, it is a way of looking at things, a perspective, a lens. It IS NOT a particular kind of theory general or not. Did you hear me, IT IS NOT ABOUT ANY PARTICULAR THEORY.


Sociedad Espanola se Systemas Generales
Here, let me show you ---


Systems Enineering Society
"However, the translation of the German into the English general system theory has "wroth a certain amount of Havoc" writes Ervin Laszlo[] in the preface of von Bertalanffy's book Perspectives on General System Theory.. []


Systemgroep Nederland
"The original concept of general system theory was Allgemeine Systemtheorie (or Lehre). Now "Theorie" (or Lehre) just as Wissenschaft (translated Scholarship), has a much broader meaning in German than the closest English words "theory" and "science." A Wissenschaft is any organized body of knowledge, including the Geisteswissenschaften (Scholarship of Arts), which would not be considered true sciences in English usage. And Theorie applies to any systematically presented set of concepts, whether they are empirical, axiomatic, or philosophical. (Lehre comes into the same category, but cannot be properly translated. "Teaching," the closest equivalent, sounds dogmatic and off the mark. However, doctrine can be a translation for it as well."
United Kingdom Systems Society


From Systems Research and Behavioral Science
"Thus when von Bertalanffy spoke of Allgemeine Systemtheorie, it was consistent with his view that he was proposing a new perspective, a new way of doing science. '''It was not directly consistent with an interpretation often put on "general system theory," to wit, that it is a (scientific) "theory of general systems." To criticize it as such is to shoot at straw men.''' Von Bertalanffy opened up something much broader and of much greater significance than a single theory (which, as we now know, can always be falsified and has usually an ephemeral existence): he created a new paradigm for the development of theories."
ISSN 1099-1743  Wiley Interscience
[[User:Thomas Mandel|Thomas Mandel]]
----
Tom: please sign all of your comments when you post them. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 21:16, 19 September 2007 (CDT)


==Further reading==
:So what, Tom? Systems theory is so general and so vaguely/ill defined that different people in the movement have their own ideas about what it is and what it could mean, as elaborated in the ISSS article I linked to. So what those researchers may think of as "systems theory" may not even be what you think of as "systems theory". Probably they don't have a grand unifying, all explaining "principle of everything" in mind (I replace "theory" with "principle" as you like). Please correct the formatting of your last post as it is not readable. Thanks. [[User:Hendra I. Nurdin|Hendra I. Nurdin]] 21:21, 19 September 2007 (CDT)


*Ackoff, R. (1978). The art of problem solving. New York: Wiley.
*Bertalanffy, L. von. (1950). "An Outline of General Systems Theory." Philosophy of Science, Vol. 1, No. 2.
-   
*Bertalanffy, L. von. (1955). "An Essay on the Relativity of Categories." Philosophy of Science, Vol. 22, No. 4, pp. 243–263.
Nowhere in the article is a claim being made that there is a "general system theory" Your claims to the contrary are wrong. You are setting up situations which do not exist and then shooting them down. It is that kind of attitude that is creating havoc.  
*Banathy, B. ( ) Systems Design of Education. Englewood Cliffs: Educational Technology Publications
-  
*Banathy, B. (1992) A Systems View of Education. Englewood Cliffs: Educational Technology Publications. ISBN 0877782458
You refer us to a paper, but if you actually read the paper it says   
*Banathy, B (1996) Designing Social Systems in a Changing World New York Plenum
*Bateson, G. (1979). Mind and nature: A necessary unity. New York: Ballantine
*Bausch, Kenneth C. (2001) The Emerging Consensus in Social Systems Theory, Kluwer Academic New Yourk ISBN 0306465396
*Bunge, M. (1979) Treatise on Basic Philosophy, Volume 4. Ontology II A World of Systems. Dordrecht, Netherlands: D. Reidel.
*Capra, F. (1997). The Web of Life-A New Scientific Understanding of Living Systems, Anchor ISBN 978-0385476768
*Checkland, P. (1981). Systems thinking, Systems practice. New York: Wiley.
*Churchman, C.W. (1971). The design of inquiring systems. New York: Basic Books.
*Churchman, C.W. (1968). The systems approach. New York: Laurel.
*Corning, P. 1983) The Synergism Hupothesis: A Theory of Progressive Evolution. New York: McGRaw Hill
*Jantsch, E. (1980). The Self Organizing Universe. New York: Pergamon.
*Laszlo, E. (1995). The Interconnected Universe. New Jersy, World Scientific. ISBN 9810222025
*Laszlo, E. (1972a). The systems view of the world. The natural philosophy of the new developments in the sciences. New York: George Brazillier. ISBN 0807606367
*Laszlo, E. (1972b). Introduction to systems philosophy. Toward a new paradigm of contemporary thought. San Francisco: Harper.
*Lemkow, A. (1995) The Wholeness Principle: Dynamics of Unity Within Science, Religion & Society. Quest Books, Wheaton.
*Minati, Gianfranco. Collen, Arne. (1997) Introduction to Systemics Eagleye books. ISBN 0924025069
*Senge, P. (1990). The Fifth Discipline. The art and practice of the learning organization. New York: Doubleday.
*Wiener, N. (1967). The human use of human beings. Cybernetics and Society. New York: Avon.


==External links==
'''From the above discussion it can be concluded that GST is not a theory.''' It is not a set of logically connected statements deductively or inductively arrived at. '''It is not an abstraction of empirical reality that could produce experimental prediction, rather it is a wide array of literature regarding different aspects of systems of every nature.''' 


*Principia Cybernetica Web
Systems thinking has sprouted in various fields. As everyone needs to know basic computing, everyday science, primary medicare, general courtesy etc. so, systems science 
has to be taken in such a level that everybody will need to know the basics of systems science or primary systems science. '''To reach this knowledge to everyone of the world, there could be a systems movement like human rights movement. But prior to that those basic knowledge is to be acquired. So, it needs intense intellectual discourse to gather knowledge regarding systems.''' 
-   
- AND 
-   
Systems studies is on the other hand, the study of systems that may be scientifically. The knowledge derived from systems studies itself is science.''' There should be a research group, teaching professionals and teaching curricula in all academic levels from primary to post-graduate regarding systems'''. There should be a cyclic relation among research, teaching and application. It would be a discipline to study systems of 
- different fields. There should be a demand for systems specialists in organizations (systems) of all types. This appears to be difficult but is possible. Before a couple of years there was no demand for interior designers and decorators, fashion designers etc., but in these days there is a big demand for those professionals because providing proper services they have been able to create demand for them. The same holds true for systems studies. The presence of systems specialists should ensure positive change in organizations (systems) and people have to recognize and appreciate such changes. Only then, organizations will search for systems specialists facing system trouble. First of all, a curriculum has to be developed. It may include courses like Theories of Systems, Methodology of Systems Research, specific systems studies like the economic system of 
Bangladesh, the decision-making system of the While House etc. It is possible to design a well-charted curriculum within 05-10 years. A group of systems specialists can be assigned with this responsibility. Scholars representing all institutions worldwide, '''those are now engaged in systems research and teaching can be given the responsibility of making a unified curriculum to be taught throughout the world.''' Keeping aside all other connotations, (movement, perspective, approach etc.) by making it an academic discipline and creating relations from research, teaching and application, we can derive immense 
benefit from systems studies in the service of mankind. The next ISSS annual conference theme is proposed to be ‘systems studies –an emerging academic discipline’. Or at least a Plenary Session can be devoted to this proposition. Based on the deliberations of scholars, the next steps should be taken to develop an academic discipline and create cyclic relations from research, teaching and application. 
   
Finally the Conclusion 
   
Systems Studies can teach us methodologies for studying systems, ways of identifying problems with systems, mastering techniques for eradicating those problems and ways to build new systems where necessary. '''There lies enough literature scatteredly in the area of systems. We need to put those in right order in- the shape of an academic discipline.''' Systems Studies is supposed to address questions like: What is a system? How systems in the real world can be identified? What are the elements of a system? What are the interactions among those elements? What are the principles of systems unctioning? How problems in a system can be traced and most advantageously eliminated? '''Putting the wide array of systems ideas in right order, answers to those questions can be obtained'''. The proposed academic discipline Systems Studies can greatly contribute to the welfare of mankind. '''Therefore, not giving up systems movement, but by reshaping it in the form of an academic discipline, great services can be rendered to mankind.''' + 
   
I'd like to thank you for this article, because it is exactly what I am trying to do. In fact, our board of directors has already approved in principle a research project that may be the beginning of what the author is proposing. BTW, notice that Charles Francois is quoted by him more than anyone else, he is that single voice you chided me on. Perhaps this CZ article can be the seed article for such an academic program. But first we need to uderstand what makes our kind of system different from what everyone else regards as the real. Notice that he didn't mention the new categories of interaction that Bertalanffy called for. This is the key, to learn not what a thing is, but what a thing is doing. What are you doing? Why do you want to divide ewverything up? We are supposed to be bringing everything together.  Why are you dividing everything up?
   
- [[User:Thomas Mandel|Thomas Mandel]] 21:37, 19 September 2007 (CDT)


Tom, I'd like to ask you to calm down and take a break for a few days. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 21:58, 19 September 2007 (CDT)
:::Why don't you tell her to work on her article and let me work on mine. This article is in preparation, it is not in the main namespace. Technically it isn't open to anyone but me.


{{civil}}


===Systemists===
::Could a constable please remove the above uncivil and unnecessarily inflammatory remark by Tom? TIA. [[User:Hendra I. Nurdin|Hendra I. Nurdin]] 22:36, 19 September 2007 (CDT)
*Ludwig von Bertalanffy
*Charles François
*John N. Warfield
*Gordon Pask
*Russell L Ackoff
*W Ross Ashby
*Bela H Banathy
*Stafford Beer
*Kenneth Boulding
*Peter Checkland
*C West Churchman
*Jay Forrester
*George Klir
*Niklas Luhmann
*Humberto Maturana
*Margaret Mead
*Warren McCulloch
*Charles McClelland
*James Grier Miller
*Harold G Nelson
*Howard Odum
*Gordon Pask
*Howard Pattee
*William Powers
*Ilya Prigogine
*Anatol Rapoport
*Robert Rosen
*Claude Shannon
*Len Troncale
*Francisco Varela
*Heinz von Foerster
*John von Neumann
*Geoffrey Vickers
*Paul Watzlawick
*Norbert Wiener

Latest revision as of 11:37, 20 September 2007


"I come not with my own strengths but bring with me the gifts, talents and strengths of my family, tribe and ancestors."

Maori proverb

"There is no way a sophisticated method can substitute for clear thinking." Andreas Goppold

"We cannot understand the whole bit by bit" Bela H Banathy


notes

Note 1: Language is crucial to systems theory. In keeping with Korzybski's g-s and the Whorf Principle of Linguistic Relativity, it is imperative that the intro/definition be precisely worded. Leaving out a single word can make the difference between the new and the old. One bad word can turn the entire enterprise into nonsense. Furthermore, because ontological considerations are different, a new language is being sought. Until that is found, if ever, we are using old words to say something new.

There has to be a point where the knowledge of the subject takes precedence over editorial desires.

note 2) While I don't see it as a controversy of the confrontational kind, systems theory has a built-in controversy with classical science. Much ado is made of the diferent perspectives involved, (a) that of looking at an object and (b)that of looking at what the object is doing. So there is a lot of high-level talk about the shortcomings of the old science going on in the literature of systemics. I am not aware of any classical scientists refuting this observation however. So it has not become a controversy of the ordinary kind yet. Systems theory does not replace classical science, it is a complementary of classical science.

If there is controversy, used to be that cybernetics and systems each argued that the other came after, in the end, cybernetics is a special case of the more general systems theory. Today, the controversy is between complexity science and systems theory. IMO, Complexity wants to be top dog, and they act as if they invented something new e.g., the new science of complexity, but what they did is computerize/mathematize complex systems. They don't invalidate system theory principles, they regard them as "old hat" while, later, they refer back to them as their core principles. In my very personal opinion IMVPO

note 3) This quote is from the systems biology article. Does this suggest that systems theory is "dated"? Or does it suggest that the authors did not find it necessary (in this or any other part of the article) to acknowledge prior research?

"When trying to understand biological systems, systems biologists need not treat the components or elements of a system (or subsystem) exclusively as discrete or concrete objects or entities (e.g., molecules, organelles, cells, etc.), but may also treat them as abstracted concepts of organizational collections or activity patterns of those objects or entities, admitting of study by mathematical, computational and statistical tools. Those include such concepts as circuits, networks and modules, more about which will follow below. Such concepts have a way of appearing less abstract or hypothetical as biologists more fully define them in terms of structure and coordinated dynamical interactions; predict systems behavior from them using quantitative models; and relate them functionally in the larger systems embedding them."

The above is clearly systems theory. It is not consistant with the premise that systems theory is outdated/not used, it is consistant with the premise that systems theory is relatively unknown/ignored.

Note 4) I received two reprints from John Warfield who has written on how to do systems work of high quality. Here we have one of the inside stories concerning the politics within the systems movement. They are people like everyone else, and they have faults like everyone else. In this case Warfield has done a tremendous quantity of systems research but he feels that his work has been neglected. This seems to be a common theme among systemists - neglect of the work of others.


Note 5) On the other hande, Warfield writes, "It is a daunting task to discuss the design of a systems sciences program when the word "systems" and the word "science" have both been diminished in scope or scale by common yusage. This task is made still more dificult when, as in applications of systems science, the information that is required to resolve difficult situations is so often in the hands of people who are not accustomed to scientific language, whether debased or not."

I think that Warfield hits the nail straight on the head. I for one, when I read decades ago about this system or that system, did not imagine a special meaning. My personal research into organismic systems went on for 22 years before I discovered system has a special meaning, the same meaning I was researching, and that literally tens of thousands have worked with it. The point is that when I came across the word "system" in my early research I didn't find any need to look further into the meaning of that word and in no way did I think that there was anything special about it. While system theory is common among systemists, as is system philosophy, system science, system thinking and systemics, the general public, and this includes Phd's from all disciplines, does not make that special connection either. This does not mean that the principles of system thoery have been likewise ignored, systems biology is a good example of parallel research apparently without any knowledge of system philosophy. Thus it is all the more important that the definition be explicite about the integrative aspect of a system. Systems thinking does not mean that all science should be put into the same framework as a bus system or sewer system or organizational system.

note 6 The reason for this note is one sentence written by Warfield as a note 17 on page 538 journal article ----

"The fundamental idea is that the systems science must be a neutral science that is applicable across the board, but which will usualy have to be supplemented by experts from the specific sciences or from other areas where relevant experience is found."

It appears that systems science and CitiZendium have something in common. Creating a neutral science is not difficult when general terms constitute the language. Enabling experts from specific sciences is more problematic. Systems science is not just science 2.0. In some crucial (ontological) respects it is a completly new and different way of doing science. However, in our case, we have a perfect supplemental specific application of systems science to be found in the article systems biology.


I just found your comments Greg. I am planning on deleting the old article soon, and then reorganize this talk page according to tradition. Meanwhile, I have removed complexity for now and instead will deal with complex systems. I haven't done much with methodology because I am still trying to gather together significant areas. In one sense all of systemics is methodology, for example the change in thinking. I am working from several sources and I still haven't got the general framework correct yet,Thomas Mandel 11:13, 24 June 2007 (CDT)

Methodology

The article has little to say (directly, at least) about methodology. It seems that the article ought to say something about how research in systems theory is done. Greg Woodhouse 22:34, 19 June 2007 (CDT)

hard vs. soft systems and controversy

The article states without justification that "soft" systems are not amenable to the same level of mathematical analysis as "hard" systems. This claim is not uncontroversial. Mathematical approaches such as neural networks or genetic algorithms are actually quite precise. What is more significant, though, is that these techniques do not easily (if at all) reduce to Zadeh's fuzzy systems, and there is little consensus that this is a useful theoretical approach. Other ostensibly "soft" models liike PDEs are reducible to "hard" models in a very precise way. Think, for example, of the relationship between thermodynamics and classical statistical mechanics. Greg Woodhouse 22:43, 19 June 2007 (CDT)

No one is saying that hard system approaches are not precise, but they failed to live up to expectations when these techniques were applied to social systems, family system theory for example. The bottom line is that we have to report what they did/do and not what it appears like to you and me. Thomas Mandel

operations research

Can you elaborate a bit on how OR fits into the framework of systems theory? The article lists it as a modern development, but doesn't elaborate further. Greg Woodhouse 22:47, 19 June 2007 (CDT)

computers and complexity

You might want to be a little more nuanced here. It is true that the growth of computer technology has played an important role in the styudy of complex systems, but one of the most iconic figures in the history of dynamical systems and chaos is Poincaré. Much of the theory goes back to the 19th century. The relationship between heat and triginometric series goes back to Joseph Fourier, In addition, the study of complexity theory in computer science (as is the case with computabilty) was initially concerned with computation in the abstract, not the complexity of algorithms executed on digital computers. Greg Woodhouse 23:33, 19 June 2007 (CDT)

I will delete complexity science for now. Thomas Mandel 11:19, 24 June 2007 (CDT)

Here's some feedback from the field --

Very interesting Thom:

I suggest that you keep up the work! It's quite good and contains a lot that I never knew.

Peace, -- Mark

Between you and me, I am surprised as much as you are, thanks to the guys here at CZ, I had to rise to a new level Thomas Mandel 14:32, 23 June 2007 (CDT)

It appears that there are two major applicabilities; one would within the systems theory domain, how systems theorists apply their research and the other would be in the field, or how systems theory is used by other than system theorists. This begs the question "Who is systems theory for?" The answer is found in the purpose of systems theory.Thomas Mandel 00:53, 20 June 2007 (CDT)

I don't know where your "this" starts and ends. I am trying to map it out as they have done it. Areas of applicability is what we call "Applications" I think what I was trying to do is form a historical sequence. Thomas Mandel 15:58, 19 June 2007 (CDT)

I moved this reply from the article page to here. Thomas Mandel 15:58, 19 June 2007 (CDT)

Oops! Sorry about that.
None of this is history of systems theory. What you are doing in providing a long list of areas of research where some sort of phenomenon (e.g., feedback in queuing systems where customers are not lost to the system but able to reenter) is present that is of interest to systems theorists. Perhaps you can call it "areas of applicability" or something along those lines. Greg Woodhouse 15:39, 19 June 2007 (CDT)
Very astute of you to catch that Greg. Thomas Mandel

Holding

Bela H. Banathy has contributed extensively to the knowledge base of systems theory, human activity in particular. Bela Banathy's last book, Guided Evolution of Society: A System View presented a cultural evolution of models and ideas exploring "The Journey from Evolutionary Consciousness to Conscious Evolution." He talks about how biological evolution evolved into a cultural evolution, giving examples of how, when prehistoric man developed a language, his tool making evolved as well. [3]

Systems theory refers to a body of thought and way of thinking held among a small minority of thinkers across various disciplines. Systems theory primarily traces itself to a work by biologist Ludwig von Bertalanffy, General System Theory, in which he sought to bring under one philosophical heading his thoughts about organismic structures. Bertalanffy argued [fill in core argument]. Adherents of system theory have gone on to apply Bertalanffy's thought to [fill in details].


However, the translation of the German into the English general system theory has "wroth a certain amount of Havoc" writes Ervin Laszlo[] in the preface of von Bertalanffy's book Perspectives on General System Theory.. []

"The original concept of general system theory was Allgemeine Systemtheorie (or Lehre). Now "Theorie" (or Lehre) just as Wissenschaft (translated Scholarship), has a much broader meaning in German than the closest English words "theory" and "science." A Wissenschaft is any organized body of knowledge, including the Geisteswissenschaften (Scholarship of Arts), which would not be considered true sciences in English usage. And Theorie applies to any systematically presented set of concepts, whether they are empirical, axiomatic, or philosophical. (Lehre comes into the same category, but cannot be properly translated. "Teaching," the closest equivalent, sounds dogmatic and off the mark. However, doctrine can be a translation for it as well.

"Thus when von Bertalanffy spoke of Allgemeine Systemtheorie, it was consistent with his view that he was proposing a new perspective, a new way of doing science. It was not directly consistent with an interpretation often put on "general system theory," to wit, that it is a (scientific) "theory of general systems." To criticize it as such is to shoot at straw men. Von Bertalanffy opened up something much broader and of much greater significance than a single theory (which, as we now know, can always be falsified and has usually an ephemeral existence): he created a new paradigm for the development of theories."


  • 2006, John N. Warfield, AN INTRODUCTION TO SYSTEMS SCIENCE, World Scientific [5]
  • 2001, Kenneth Bausch, The Emerging Consensus in Social Systems Theory. Kluwer Academic, London. ISBN: 0-306-46539-6
  • 2004, Charles François, Encyclopedia of Systems and Cybernetics, K G Saur, Munich
  • 1999, Charles François, Systemics and Cybernetics in a Historical Perspective
  • 1996, Ervin Laszlo. Systems View of the World. Hampton Press, New Jersy. ISBN: 0-8076-0637-5
  • 1982 Fritjof Capra, The Turning Point. Bantum Books. ISBN: 0-0053-01480-3
  • 1985, Len Troncale. The Future of General System Research. Systems Research


  • 1975, Gerald M. Weinberg An Introduction to General Systems Thinking (1975 ed., Wiley-Interscience) (2001 ed. Dorset House).
  • 1968, Ludwig von Bertalanffy General System Theory: Foundations, Development, Applications New York: George Braziller

Comments

Hope you'll forgive my small intrusion here. I've made some minor edits that you should feel free to revert. Made them during a read through with a view to offering a few comments. There's a lot here that is very interesting, and you have a broad canvas, and I'm very sympathetically inclined. On reading through though, there were a few things that jarred; bold text is I think overused, it shouts too loud for me. The reading list is just too long to be helpful, it didn't seem to be obviously selective nor did it appear to be comprehensive. Some parts of the text are I thought, too much influenced affected by the intrusion of the writer's opinion - I noted especially the section on Warfield as being congratulatory rather than informative. I also thought there was an apparent excess of jargon and definitions, and a corresponding underuse of simple explanatory terms. So, when you talk of Discovery for instance, is this in the natural meaning? in which case doesn't need capitalization, or is it in some internally defined special sense, in which case it seems to need explanation or should else be avoided.Gareth Leng 04:18, 26 June 2007 (CDT)

Your perspective is welcome and refreshing, I changed the bold, but want to keep it in the first paragraph because those words are important. Don't know what to say about the jargon, why else is a encyclopedia for? DId I miss your point? I deleted a couple obvious opinions of mine. Discovery is used by Warfield to label a stage of his methodology but it is used in the conventional "legal" sense. Definitions are important to us because we do redefine many concepts. I like to use them because they can explain a significant concept. Did I miss anything?

Thomas Mandel 00:48, 27 June 2007 (CDT)

Many thanks. Of course an article should introduce and explain key technical concepts (jargon).What I was sniping (gently I hope) at are capitalised phrases like "Total Systems Intervention"; the capitalization seems to suggest that these have a very specific meaning, and maybe they do, but if so they are not always explained. I'm not suggesting that you avoid all jargon, but perhaps it should either be explained or avoided.Gareth Leng 03:22, 27 June 2007 (CDT)

Oh, I like to think of myself as the world's greatest promoter of simple explanation, (just kidding) I even have a name for it "Sympology" (not kidding)

Here my hands are tied, I can only report what is going on. But if it is of any consolation, systems theory insofar as it is a transdisciplinary science, must depend on plain language to make its point. The complexities we develop/investigate are best expressed by the metaphors and models we use, so we do not need complex words and hopefully the trend in the future will be tward simple/plain language. I do not agree with the school of thought which contends that comnplex/new ideas must have their own language/jargon. Nor is it possible, so thay say, to create a single universal language (which everyone would have to learn) We have no choice but to use plain language, that is, after we learn how to talk in that language. Thomas Mandel 16:25, 27 June 2007 (CDT)

Re: Capitalization. I am capitalizing words which are capitalized in the field. Total Systems Intervention (TSI)is actually the proper name of a methodology. (It is good that the common definition is confused with the proper name at least in the sense that it can be understood by anyone.)Thomas Mandel
Looks like this article is coming along Thomas, good work - keep it up! --Matt Innis (Talk) 19:59, 12 July 2007 (CDT)
Well, can't say that I disagree with you. I was supposed to do this ten years ago. The big difference today is that there can be no me in it. There is just what happened. What is new is this compendium which Marcus says we never had before. I'm letting the organizaion happen by itself, but I know that after it settles down, I will read about it in Banathy's books. written ten twenty years before. One of the criticisms systems theory faces is that there is no theory. Well, true it is scattered all over the place, but the theory is there. So, writing in uncharted waters, I am wondering what it would take to write the theory...

"Everything is biased"

It is required that all information be included, let's not define all, so in that spirit, what is the alternative/other/ viewpoint? I didn't think there was an alternative/other viewpoint...So what is the alternative/other viewpoint? Thomas Mandel 00:07, 11 August 2007 (CDT)

Criticism's of systems theory

My advisor wrote this in response to the objections from Lynn's Education and Research Network.


a) “working together” means everyone thinking the same. b)requires that individuals give up their individual beliefs for those of the community c) systems theory is diametrically opposed to Christianity. d) systems theory is the foundation upon which Hitler built his dictatorship e) just as it is the foundation upon which Marxism and fascism are also both built? f) Systems theory is a man-made concept, defiant of God and God’s will. g) systems theory under girds communism, fascism and national socialism, all despotic governance structures enslaving people and defying the word of God."


Well Tom, what does one say.

Firstly, it is difficult to argue with biased rationality and total conviction....it leaves no room for discussion. To tell a BELIEVER that all belief constructs arise from Mankind by virtue of Man being there and being able to perceive and make sense of those perceptions is like trying to walk on water when you have no experience of this skill. But to be honest, all of us are BELIEVERS to some extent. We develop our worldviews when we are in a developmental period, and when we form into groups that give us our mutual support, we formulate paradigms that direct our modes of practice. I have met many a writer constrained by the boundaries of their own paradigm, unable to apprehend alternative views. This of course stands against the notion of Piaget's notion of operative intelligence, where there is a need for the individual to entertain a form of cognitive projection from which different perspectives can be apprehended and coordinated.

The fact of the matter is that there is absolutely no basis for the criticism of systems theory if it comes from someone with such a bounded cognitive condition. It is purely a local construction that when taken out of its paradigmatic box fails to leave a trail of substance. If they were to try to argue against systems thinking, then it would have to be on the basis of its (soft) constructivist nature, that a system is defined by a viewer who has a basic orientation and set of experiences, and these guide the practice of the defining the system. The theory of the system stands firm as a set of principles that derive from the axiomatic notion of holism. Having said this, the theory of the system holds little without the accompanying theory of cybernetics. They two float together in a self supporting couple. The theory of one needs the theory of the other to be practically useful.

One of the most interesting theoretical formulations to have developed over the last 3000 years comes from China through Taoist thinking (influenced as it is by Confucianism), which also strictly conforms to the notion of holism. It too is a system/cybernetics formulation of theory that is fundamentally more systemic than science.

However, in describing the notions of systems, one must always be careful. Some people might for instance define a system in terms of its parts each of which have purposes. They may then set up the notion of purposes in terms of goals. However, this relatively hard approach would often be anathema to the soft systems person, who believes in the appreciative system, and argues that it is difficult in a complex world to define the boundaries on any part, or to associate purposes with them. Even if this cannot be done, there is still the possibility of using systems constructs through the notion of holism to enable cybernetics processes to be explored. Indeed, perhaps it is possible to claim that systems provides a structure for cybernetics content....This is in fact the formulation that my own work takes, adopting principles of third cybernetics.

When one tries to decry the notion of the whole because people do not work together, there are clear reasons why this is the case, and the enlightened critic would try to read some of the voluminous theory (for instance my own) about why this does not occur. One of the principle causes is systemic pathology. Pathologies are endemic in systems, and they occur through many causes. One is that people do not understand other people. In the area of knowledge management for instance, there is the idea that all knowledge is locally created, and that people only understand others from their own experiences that has given them their tacit knowledge. For those who are really interested in being critical of systems theory, they should try moving beyond superficial and elementary reading, and dipping into deeper pools of knowledge. Of the criticisms below, I have not seen one that really holds any water. This is perhaps because they isolated statements are taken out of context, or simply that the writers are so constrained by their own paradigms that they are unable to take the time to read deeply into systems theory.

This is not to say that systems theory is correct and other paradigms are not. We each chose our modes of expression and languages. However, to decry one because of ignorance is not to be forgiven. (Prof) Maurice Yolles

Now, my question is where do go to find the counterview? Is it productive and useful if we asked those who know nothing about systems theory? Or do we go to those who have taken the time to learn enough about the subject to make an intelligent criticism?

Suggest following lead-in pgraph for general reader

System theory is a transdisciplinary and multi-perspective scientific field of inquiry concerned with the study of the interrelationships of the constituent elements of organized patterns (systems) of all types — material and immaterial, static and dynamic. Such systems consist of sets of elements that interact with one another, statically or dynamically, forming patterns making up a distinguishable ‘whole’, with attributes not found in the parts, and therefore characteristic of the system-as-a-whole. To paraphrase Erich Jantsch,[1] a system becomes observable and definable only through the interrelationships of its constituent elements. Examples of systems include:

  • Mechanical: timepieces; automobiles, bridges;
  • Human plus mechanical: flying a jet plane; playing a piano
  • Biological: cells; organ systems (digestive); organisms;
  • Ecological: forests; biosphere'
  • Social: organized societies; clubs;
  • Ideological: isms; philosophies;
  • Procedural: measuring; grading; governmental;
  • Hypothetical/theoretical/scientific: Copernican; Newtonian; Darwinian;
  • Networks: World Wide Web.

Note that all such organized patterned wholes become observable as such only through the interrelationships among their constituent elements.

Ervin Laszlo contrasts the systems approach with the classical science approach referred to as reductionism, (reducing to a minimum), as a shifting of emphasis from parts to the organization of parts; from the "component to the dynamic" as he puts it. See text box to right. Systemists emphasize that it is through the mutually interactive relationships of the system's constituent elements that new properties of the whole arise, a process called 'emergence'. The late Bela H. Banathy regarded 'emergence' to be the "value" of systems theory; as this new whole has properties which are not found in the constituent elements. "We cannot understand the whole bit by bit" he explained.[1]This article describes the origins, scope, concepts, perspectives and contributions of system theory.


--Anthony.Sebastian (Talk) 20:18, 19 August 2007 (CDT)

Tony, let me say something. I don't know if I am saying it adequately but let me try. It is not the complexification of knowledge that systems theory is about, it is a completely different reality that we see. When we look at the reality in a systemic way, we are looking at different things. A systemic view is not a sophisticated version of the scientific view, it is looking at and seeing a different view. Thomas Mandel 01:26, 21 August 2007 (CDT)

Just to make the point clear, One of the fundamental ideas in systems theory is what Banathy tells us ""We cannot understand the whole bit by bit" Because systems theory is different, it is imperative that this difference be understood from the beginning. For it is in the betginning that the direction is chosen.

Need help with systems biology section leadin

Tony, I need your help. In the systems biology section, I copied a leadin from the systemsbiology website, I requested permission to reprint it but did not receive a reply. I have it hidden in the edit copy. Can you come up with a leadin for the systems biology section? What they write sounds good, except for the subsystem is a childsystem stuff. Let me know what you think?Thomas Mandel 23:54, 26 August 2007 (CDT)

Well here it is --Summary found at systems biology institute website --"In summary, systems are comprised of parts which interact. The interaction of these parts gives rise to new properties and functions which are key to the system. We call these new properties and functions "emergent properties". Because emergent properties are the result of interactions between the parts, they can not be attributed to any single parts of the system. This makes systems irreducible. A system is unlikely to be fully understood by taking it apart and studying each part on its own. (We cannot understand an author's message by studying individual words; we cannot appreciate a forest by looking at individual trees.) To understand systems, and to be able to fully understand a system's emergent properties, systems need be studied as a whole. This recognition that complex systems, especially life, are truly understood from knowledge of the interactions of their component parts is fundamental to systems biology and all the research at the Institute for Systems Biology."

You might try to make the first and last sentence consistent. Thomas Mandel 13:10, 27 August 2007 (CDT)

Comments

Hello Thomas. I came across your comprehensive article on Systems Theory and Systems Biology, I haven't had time to read it more carefully (there is a lot of information there, so do keep up the good work) but I think a mention of what electrical and control engineers and applied mathematicians know as a mathematical systems theory is conspicuously missing. This is an established field and goes under the AMS classification of 93--xx (systems theory; control), see http://www.ams.org/msc. Systems thinking has from early on been a central concept in modern control engineering and researchers in the field have contributed a great deal to the development of various rigorous mathematical concepts and tools for systems analysis and synthesis (for example, stability analysis) and now starting to be applied to fields like systems biology and complex networks.

I'm also puzzled why so much space is devoted to the opinion of Lynn from the LEARN website and why she should be given status as a sort of authority on the subject. In particular, her arguments seem to be leaning towards pseudoscience and begs the question of whether her opinion is suitable for inclusion in the article. Hendra I. Nurdin 21:47, 15 September 2007 (CDT)

I was asked to present opposing thoughts and her thoughts are as opposing as it can get. Because the article is under construction, I temporaily included all her commentsThomas Mandel 00:34, 17 September 2007 (CDT)

After further reading

Oops ... Okay, after more careful reading this "system theory" is related to but not quite the same as the systems theory I was thinking of (as it is understood in (control) engineering, see, for example, [1]). May I suggest changing the name of this article to "Systems theory (philosophy)", to distinguish it to the systems theory of engineering? Thanks. Hendra I. Nurdin 00:29, 16 September 2007 (CDT)

I do not understand why you don't first of all include your mathematical systems theory into the article, I don't know everything, and if you feel that mathematical systems theory is different and separate rename your article to mathematical systems theory? You are not suggesting that we rename our article so that you can use "systems theory" yourself? Thomas Mandel 21:08, 16 September 2007 (CDT)

I would like to propose that you consult someone with at least some familiarity with General Systems Theory to see what sort of adequate resolution might be found. Perhaps Anthony Sebastian. I think it might be useful to make systems theory a disambiguation page.

Philosophers know nothing about General Systems Theory, as far as I know, and this article doesn't particularly sound like philosophy to me. --Larry Sanger 21:31, 16 September 2007 (CDT)

Anthony Sebastian is not an expert in systems theory, AND systems theory is not just a philosophy, your people put that tag on it. I am sorry that some are not aware of our field, but isn't that what a encyclopedia is supposed to do? Control theory is related to Cybernetics, a certain kind of system. Note that her links refer to Wiener, the founder of cybernetics. Neither cybernetics nor control theory is more general than systems theory. Just because some people choose to refer to systems theory does not mean that their particular theory IS all of systems theory. From the article -- "Fritjof Capra summarizes in his book: The Turning Point; "Systems thinking is a discipline for seeing wholes. It is a framework for seeing interrelationships rather than things, for seeing patterns of change rather than static “snapshots.” It is a set of general principles—distilled over the course of the twentieth century, spanning fields as diverse as the physical and social sciences, engineering, and management. ...During the last thirty years, these tools have been applied to understand a wide range of corporate, urban, regional, economic, political, ecological, and even psychological systems. And systems thinking is a sensibility—for the subtle interconnectedness that gives living systems their unique character."

In the end it is what the field is doing that matters, and this field is populated by many many more than just control engineers. The term systems theory has been used for fifty years as a general designation and it is not correct for any particular aspect of systems to claim the name as its own. If that were so, then why not management systems too? Or any of the vast number of disciplines that use systems theory? Why not use the correct wording "control systems" they did it right on their pages "systems theory - control" Thomas Mandel 00:14, 17 September 2007 (CDT)

You might want to follow your o0wn instructions copied here - "The title (i.e., the word or phrase in the title) is used in multiple ways, and the sense discussed in the article is not the most common sense. For example, there is a line of cosmetics called "Philosophy"; the article about that might live at Philosophy (cosmetics). The article about deep thought continues to live at Philosophy--no parentheses needed. "

so that her article would be systems theory (control)

Thomas Mandel 00:28, 17 September 2007 (CDT)

Many people doing Hendra's kind of systems theory would disagree that they use your kind of systems theory. I think the phrase "systems theory" is ambiguous and that neither Hendra's kind of systems theory nor your kind can "claim" the title Systems theory. So, I agree with the proposal at Talk:System theory that we call one article Systems theory (engineering) and the other one Systems theory (interdisciplinary field) or Systems theory (cybernetics) or General systems theory or whatever you prefer. -- Jitse Niesen 07:14, 17 September 2007 (CDT)
Of course you have a source which supports your opinion, may I see it please? (transdisciplinary, not interdisciplinary)Thomas Mandel 09:09, 17 September 2007 (CDT)
Tom, these editors know your position: you don't want anything but your article to live on systems theory. This doesn't appear to be acceptable to the editors. If you don't have any positive proposal, let them decide on what the next step is. --Larry Sanger 09:30, 17 September 2007 (CDT)
Systems theory is not systems engineering. Systems theory is a term that has been used in the systems community for fifty years as a general umbrella term. Systems engineering is a special case or application of systems theory, that is, a certain kind of system. Bertalanffy defined systems engineering as "Scientific planning, design,evaluation and construction of man-machine systems. My reference is from the International Encyclopedia of Systems and Cybernetics. ISBN 3-598-11357-9. Pg 359 The two editors did not cite any sources and only provided their opinions which I had assumed was not allowed. We were on the verge of creating a student research project here. I think, however, it would be better if we did it on our own Wiki. I would like to thank you however, I have been invited to write an article for the journal World Futures, which would not have happened if it wasn't for you.Thomas Mandel 17:33, 17 September 2007 (CDT)
No one was claiming that systems theory is systems engineering (see a related post of mine in the Section "Research paper" below). Even the engineering sense of "systems theory" is not the same as systems engineering. You keep touting this Encyclopedia of Systems and Cybernetics as a reference yet it is 1) only one reference, 2) written by a proponent for Systems Theory 3) it is only an encyclopedia. I have given references to Systems Theory as it is understood in the engineering and applied mathematics world in my postings, for instance see one of my postings above and here. Hendra I. Nurdin 17:48, 17 September 2007 (CDT)
In reply to Thomas' question, the opinion that systems theory in the engineering sense is not systems theory in the von Bertalanffy sense can be found in a book review by Brian Ingalls in IEEE Control Systems Magazine, April 2006, pp. 95ff. "Within the control community, systems theory is typically thought of as the foundation for control analysis. Indeed, it is common practice to intertwine systems and control in a work on systems theory. An alternative approach is embodied in the general systems theory of von Bertalanffy and others, who define the field in much more general terms. The approach taken by Hinrichsen and Pritchard in Mathematical Systems Theory I is, as decreed above, that systems theory is a branch of mathematics." (references deleted, my emphasis).
I believe Thomas Mandel when he says that Systems theory (transdisciplinary field) is a better title then Systems theory (interdisciplinary field). -- Jitse Niesen 21:03, 17 September 2007 (CDT)

See research paper

It may be helpful if you read the research paper published in the journal Systems Research and Behavoiral Science titled "Re-evaluating Systems Engineering as a Framework for Tackling Systems Issues by Stephen C. Cook and Timothy L.J. Ferris. Syst. Res. Vol. 24. No. 2 169-181 (2007). They write from the University of South Australia. "As modern systems engineering practice concerns broader contextual issues than just the technological product systems, system engineers are comng to adopt a wider , more abstract position with respect to the nature of the system, and arriving at a view more consistent with the view held by other system thinking practitioners. In the newer understanding of systems engineering the systems of interest encompass the entire set of elements leading to the capability to make an impact in the world, that is: the end product system, the enabling system, the process system and the impact of of these systems in their environments of operation; a set of factors known collectively in Australian Defence circles as Fundamental Inputs to Capability Thomas Mandel

This is talking about Systems Engineering, which is a different beast from the engineering Systems Theory and your General Systems Theory (though the latter would claim Systems Engineering to be a sub-discipline). Please don't forget to sign your name Tom so that people can quickly identify who wrote what. Hendra I. Nurdin 17:17, 17 September 2007 (CDT)

Acknowledge prior research

From http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/CYBSWHAT.html

What are Cybernetics and Systems Science? Cybernetics and Systems Science (also: "(General) Systems Theory" or "Systems Research") constitute a somewhat fuzzily defined academic domain, that touches virtually all traditional disciplines, from mathematics, technology and biology to philosophy and the social sciences. It is more specifically related to the recently developing "sciences of complexity", including AI, neural networks, dynamical systems, chaos, and complex adaptive systems. Its history dates back to the 1940's and 1950's when thinkers such as Wiener, von Bertalanffy, Ashby and von Foerster founded the domain through a series of interdisciplinary meetings. Systems theory or systems science argues that however complex or diverse the world that we experience, we will always find different types of organization in it, and such organization can be described by concepts and principles which are independent from the specific domain at which we are looking. Hence, if we would uncover those general laws, we would be able to analyse and solve problems in any domain, pertaining to any type of system. The systems approach distinguishes itself from the more traditional analytic approach by emphasizing the interactions and connectedness of the different components of a system. Although the systems approach in principle considers all types of systems, it in practices focuses on the more complex, adaptive, self-regulating systems which we might call "cybernetic".

Many of the concepts used by system scientists come from the closely related approach of cybernetics: information, control, feedback, communication... Cybernetics, deriving from the Greek word for steersman (kybernetes), was first introduced by the mathematician Wiener, as the science of communication and control in the animal and the machine (to which we now might add: in society and in individual human beings). It grew out of Shannon's information theory, which was designed to optimize the transmission of information through communication channels, and the feedback concept used in engineering control systems. In its present incarnation of "second-order cybernetics", its emphasis is on how observers construct models of the systems with which they interact (see constructivism).

In fact, cybernetics and systems theory study essentially the same problem, that of organization independent of the substrate in which it is embodied. Insofar as it is meaningful to make a distinction between the two approaches, we might say that systems theory has focused more on the structure of systems and their models, whereas cybernetics has focused more on how systems function, that is to say how they control their actions, how they communicate with other systems or with their own components, ... Since structure and function of a system cannot be understood in separation, it is clear that cybernetics and systems theory should be viewed as two facets of a single approach.

This insight has had as a result that the two domains have in practice almost merged: many, if not most, of the central associations, journals and conferences in the field include both terms, "systems" and "cybernetics", in their title. In spite of this lack of strict subdivisions, though, the domain is rather fragmented, with many different approaches, similar in some respects, different in others, existing side-by-side. Many of these "schools", such as autopoietic systems, anticipatory systems, living systems, viable systems or soft systems, are associated with a particular theorist or thinker, respectively Maturana, Rosen, Miller, Beer and Checkland. As a result, the cybernetics and systems domain lacks clear foundations. Yet, we, in the Principia Cybernetica Project, believe that the commonalities are much larger than the differences, and therefore it is worth attempting to integrate the different approaches in a common conceptual framework.

Some excellent, easy to read, introductory books on cybernetics and systems can be downloaded freely from our Principia Cybernetica library. Together with our dictionary, and bibliography of basic books and papers, this should be sufficient for an introductory course in the domain. The following links to other websites provide further introductory material and references.

Outside links:

Alan Scrivener's Curriculum for Cybernetics and Systems Theory Felix Geyer's excellent review paper on cybernetics and its applications to social systems General Systems Theory and Earth Science: an introduction to systems thinking Paul Pangaro's definition of Cybernetics in the Macmillan Encyclopedia of Computers an introduction to systems thinking, (especially systems dynamics) by Gene Bellinger general information on cybernetics from the ASC the ISSS project developing a primer on systems science Educational Cybernetics: a course by Gary Boyd at Concordia University description of an introductory course on Cybernetics and Systems Theory another course description on Systems Theory a digest of systems theory, consisting of excerpts from basic books and papers Systems Science Archives (mostly French) of the European Systems Union Chris Lucas' introduction to 'Cybernetics and Stochastic Systems' Revision as of 01:27, 18 September 2007 Thomas Mandel

It is unfortunate that you are not familar with systems theory, but isn't that what an encyclopedia is for? But of course it is understandable because systems theory is a very difficult subject to understand simply because the mode of inquiry is focused on the interaction between entities rather than the "mainstream" perspective on parts. However this is no excuse for professionals to ignore it. As far as small pockets of proponents, if you would have read the entire article you may have noticed the listing of a dozen or so societies and even a federation of societies and as many journals dedicated to systems research. It is not a valid argument to assume that only a minority of scientists are familar with systems thoery, ALL of science began as a minority, and it can be argued that none of them, save mathematics, are practiced by a majority of scientists. Your arguments might work in Wikipedia but here? I know it is difficult to convince a blind person that there is such a thing as color, but this does not mean whatsoever that there is no such thing as color. Systems theory is about how things work together, and maybe in a world dominated by the Darwinian paradigm, such a notion is universally rejected, but the fact of the matter is that the Universe does in fact work together. Take a look at the systems biology article and also systemsbiology.org website. Then tell me about mainstream. Notice that they have only reference to Bertalanffy. So did this person rediscover the whole ball of wax?Thomas Mandel 22:59, 17 September 2007 (CDT)
ps Web Scholar Results 1 - 10 of about 134,000,000 for systems theory. (0.08 seconds) Thomas Mandel 23:15, 17 September 2007 (CDT)
I am familiar with a "systems theory" which advocates systems thinking and synthesis, not just analysis (frankly, I don't know where this claim that mainstream science merely has "perspective on parts" is coming from), but admittedly not with your grand unified version. A grand unified anything should already raise a red flag for most professionals. No one is blind to anything, I did some reading and it seems to me that the supporters of systems theory themselves admit that systems theory lacks a clear foundation (as stated in the first article from Principia Cybernetica you posted above) and it lies at the "fringe" of science. For the latter, see for example G. A. Swanson's 1998 ISSS incoming presidential speech. P.S. your response is verging on being inflammatory, which is against CZ policy. Hendra I. Nurdin 23:55, 17 September 2007 (CDT)


Text here was removed by the Constabulary on grounds that it is needlessly inflammatory. (The author may replace this template with an edited version of the original remarks.)

"Reductionism: “…imagine a materialistic philosophy that claims that all complex entities (including proteins, cells, organisms, ecosystems) can be completely explained by the properties of their component parts. Such an epistemological position is called reductionism, and it is the basis for most of physics and chemistry, and much of biology….. In the reductionist epistemology of science, chemistry and biology are not ultimately independent disciplines, because they will eventually have all their explanations “reduced” to the terms of physics. The reductionist epistemology and methodology is strictly analytical.”

"Holism: ”Let us imagine, though, another (ontologically) materialistic philosophy. Here, complex wholes are inherently greater than the sum of their parts in the sense that the properties of each part are dependent upon the context of the part within the whole in which they operate. Thus, when we try to explain how the whole system behaves, we have to talk about the context of the whole and cannot get away talking only about the parts. This philosophical stance is variously called wholism, holism, or organicism.”

Thomas Mandel 08:51, 18 September 2007 (CDT)

21st Century science

from http://www.systemsbiology.org/Intro_to_ISB_and_Systems_Biology/Systems_Biology_--_the_21st_Century_Science

Traditional biology — the kind most of us studied in high school and college, and that many generations of scientists before us have pursued — has focused on identifying individual genes, proteins and cells, and studying their specific functions. But that kind of biology can yield relatively limited insights about the human body.

As an analogy, if you wanted to study an automobile, and focused on identifying the engine, seat belts, and tail lights, and studied their specific functions, you would have no real understanding of how an automobile operates. More important, you would have no understanding of how to effectively service the vehicle when something malfunctions. So too, a traditional approach to studying biology and human health has left us with a limited understanding of how the human body operates, and how we can best predict, prevent, or remedy potential health problems. Biologists, geneticists, and doctors have had limited success in curing complex diseases such as cancer, HIV, and diabetes because traditional biology generally looks at only a few aspects of an organism at a time.

As scientists have developed the tools and technologies which allow them to delve deeper into the foundations of biological activity — genes and proteins — they have learned that these components almost never work alone. They interact with each other and with other molecules in highly structured but incredibly complex ways, similar to the complex interactions among the countless computers on the Internet. Systems biology seeks to understand these complex interactions, as these are the keys to understanding life.

The individual function and collective interaction of genes, proteins and other components in an organism are often characterized together as an interaction network. Indeed, understanding this interplay of an organism´s genome and environmental influences from outside the organism (nature and nurture) is crucial to developing a — systems — understanding of an organism that will ultimately transform our understanding of human health and disease.

Systems biology is still in its infancy; we are at the turning point in our understanding of what the future holds for biology and human medicine. The Institute for Systems Biology is pioneering this rich new opportunity. "


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Thomas Mandel 09:01, 18 September 2007 (CDT)

Shall we delete this page, too?

Tom, you have gone ahead and deleted the article you were working on. Unless you want me to restore it, I don't see what the point is of this talk page. In fact, unless you can give me a coherent answer why we have it, I'm inclined to delete it. The purpose of talk pages is to improve articles. There is no article left here to talk about.

No one, of course, is attempting to diminish the efforts of systems theory. My only reason for insisting that you not work on this article in the main namespace has nothing to do with systems theory per se. It is that it is obviously contrary to CZ:Neutrality Policy, and you so far have not rendered it very much less obviously biased in favor of systems theory. --Larry Sanger 09:57, 18 September 2007 (CDT)

Larry, I have no problem with you, your points were correct and well taken. I also have no problem with keeping the article out of main namespace until it is acceptable to you, it's just that I have not even attempted to neutralize it, I still am in the collection phase and have been researching complexity theory which is not easy. I have kept my own personal view out of it which was an enlightening experience for me.

My problem is with those editors who have never heard of systems theory and thus conclude that it is not mainstream, is fringe science, a minority view, and so on without doing the requisite research themselves. That is not how science is supposed to be done. "Wherefore thou does not know thou does not speak" Google reports 134,000,000 listings for systems theory. Over and over I had to fight this battle with some of your people. I mean, the whole point of an encyclopedia is to educate, what kind of sense is it to believe that "I don't know about it so it must not be important enough for me to learn about it." And now someone wants me to change the name because she wants to use it her way and she too never heard of systems theory outside her engineering perspective. Then she has her friend support her and suddenly we are at Wikipedia again...The fact of the matter is that I did include systems engineering in the article, based on a research paper published in a journal. She has provided no sources for her conclusions whatsoever, and on top of it she demeans my sources. This is exactly what they do at Wikipedia. Systems theory as nomenclature has been used by the systems community for fifty years. We also have systems thinking, systems approach, systems methodology and others, each meaning the same thing but with different purposes. For example "systems thinking" is an internalization of systems philosophy. The article has been reviewed by many systems people, one of which is the president of a system Group in France. I have received many letters of praise, one stating that we don't have a compendium such as this. What we have is tens of thousands technical papers written by Phd's suitable for publication in a journal. I am the chair of the Primer group and it is my purpose to write for the general public. The problem I believe is that the general public is not aware of systemic principles because they are known by many different names. Complexity science is merely complex systems theory utilizing mathematics such as differential equations. Almost all of new science is in some way a kind of systems theory. Nothing weird about that, systems theory is about how things work together, and what is new about that is when things work together novel things emerge, usually with properties that the parts didn't have. Table salt is made of two poisons working together.

So, Yes you can restore the article if you want to, but I will not negotiate on the title. I didn't make the title up, it has been in use by our community of scholars for a very long time. And it is that which we ought to be reporting on, not the opinions of certain editors no matter who they are.

Thomas Mandel Chair, the Primer Group, International Society for the System Sciences. Thomas Mandel 17:11, 18 September 2007 (CDT)


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Text here was removed by the Constabulary on grounds that it is needlessly inflammatory. (The author may replace this template with an edited version of the original remarks.)

(A theory of everything is in principle impossible because something can not be everything) Here's what Ervin Laszlo, author of 84 books and 350 articles wrote

"However, the translation of the German into the English general system theory has "wroth a certain amount of Havoc" writes Ervin Laszlo[] in the preface of von Bertalanffy's book Perspectives on General System Theory.. []

"The original concept of general system theory was Allgemeine Systemtheorie (or Lehre). Now "Theorie" (or Lehre) just as Wissenschaft (translated Scholarship), has a much broader meaning in German than the closest English words "theory" and "science." A Wissenschaft is any organized body of knowledge, including the Geisteswissenschaften (Scholarship of Arts), which would not be considered true sciences in English usage. And Theorie applies to any systematically presented set of concepts, whether they are empirical, axiomatic, or philosophical. (Lehre comes into the same category, but cannot be properly translated. "Teaching," the closest equivalent, sounds dogmatic and off the mark. However, doctrine can be a translation for it as well.

"Thus when von Bertalanffy spoke of Allgemeine Systemtheorie, it was consistent with his view that he was proposing a new perspective, a new way of doing science. It was not directly consistent with an interpretation often put on "general system theory," to wit, that it is a (scientific) "theory of general systems." To criticize it as such is to shoot at straw men. Von Bertalanffy opened up something much broader and of much greater significance than a single theory (which, as we now know, can always be falsified and has usually an ephemeral existence): he created a new paradigm for the development of theories."

Kenneth Boulding writes in the 1968 International Encyclopedia of the Social Sciences, "The task of general systems theory is to find the most general conceptual framework in which a scientific theory or technological problem can be placed without losing the essential features of the theory or problem." [] +

Bertalanffy writes: "There appear to exist general system laws which apply to any system of a particular type, irrespective of the particular properties of the systems and the elements involved. Compared to the analytical procedure of classical science with resolution into component elements and one-way or linear causality as basic category, the investigation of organized wholes of many variables requires new categories of interaction, transaction, organization, teleology...” []The proponents of general systems theory see in it the focal point of resynthesis of knowledge." [] +


Banathy describes how systemists work with general principles -"By observing various types of systems and studying their behavior, we can recognize characteristics that are common to all systems. Once we have identified and described a set of concepts that are common to the systems, and observed and discovered among some of them certain relationships, we can construct from them General Systems Principles. Thus, a system principle emerges from an interaction/integration of related concepts. Next, we are in the position to look for relationships among principles and organize related principles into certain conceptual schemes we call Systems Models. This process of starting from observation and arriving at the construction of systems models constitutes the First Stage of developing a systems view."


Text here was removed by the Constabulary on grounds of civility. (The author may replace this template with an edited version of the original remarks.) Thomas Mandel 19:43, 18 September 2007 (CDT)

The Constabulary has removed a conversation here that either in whole or in part did not meet Citizendium's Professionalism policy. Feel free to remove this template and take up the conversation with a fresh start.

Fresh Start

Okay, there is a question on the floor here about the best way to use the article space named 'System theory'. While I expect some understandable disagreement, please keep your discourse professional and on topic. This is not that hard. Personal inuendo only makes it difficult to come to an agreement. Common courtesy and an occasional please and thank you can go a long way. --Matt Innis (Talk) 21:18, 18 September 2007 (CDT)

I have placed an archive box at the top of the page. To archive text, just cut it from the talk page and click the red Archive 1 link on the box and paste the material there. --Matt Innis (Talk) 10:03, 19 September 2007 (CDT)

Starting again afresh -- Review of journals list

Okay, so let's get back to an objective discussion. Many thanks to Matt Innis for his intervention.

Thomas, may I suggest that the journal "International Journal of Systems Science" be removed from your list of journals for general systems theory? This journal is not dedicated nor relevant to general systems theory in the sense presented in you article, hence I strongly feel it is misleading to include it as such in the article. Here are my arguments:

1) This journal publishes technical engineering papers which are more in line with systems theory (engineering) and is reasonably known within control engineering circles, just check titles of recent papers published at http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/title~content=t713697751. Compare this with papers from another journal you list kybernetes. Clearly the nature of the papers published in these journals are different.

2) The Editorial Board of this journal are engineering academics, mostly systems and control engineers.

3) The targeted audience for this journal is as follows (see here):

"Readership

The journal is aimed at advanced research workers, and development engineers, intelligent and manufacturing engineers in industry and universities who have an interest in the application of modelling, simulation, optimization and control to specific systems.

All published research articles in this journal have undergone rigorous peer review, based on initial editor screening and anonymous refereeing by independent expert referees."

In particular, in (3) I emphasize the "... modelling, simulation, optimization and control to specific systems." This is essentially the scope and tools of systems theory (engineering). Please try make the content of the article as accurate as possible. Thanks. Hendra I. Nurdin 07:18, 19 September 2007 (CDT)

Sorry, my intent is to include everything pertaining to systems,

if you feel that "control" is not part of systems theory then you might consider removing systems theory from your vocabulary. Thank you. Thomas Mandel 19:59, 19 September 2007 (CDT)

Then your article would be misleading people and perhaps it should just be deleted -- is this a sort of article that the general public should see in CZ? The point is that you are insinuating that this journal provides some kind of support for general systems theory (or movement to be more precise), its believes and goals, which it does not. No, control theory is indeed not part of this very general and vague notion of systems theory that you are advocating, it's a distortion of reality. You have to be be frank in your article that this theory is not generally accepted. Thanks. Hendra I. Nurdin 20:20, 19 September 2007 (CDT)
http://journals.isss.org/index.php/proceedings50th/article/view/377/144 Here] I found a paper published in your ISSS journal (from http://journals.isss.org/index.php/proceedings50th/issue/current this 2006 proceedings]) from a critical supporter on his view of the current state of the theory and the movement for other CZ editors and authors who may wish to read it and make a judgement for themselves. Thanks. Hendra I. Nurdin 20:30, 19 September 2007 (CDT)
You might try reading the article, especially the part about what General systems theory means in the original German. Your assumptions are WRONG. Systems theory IS NOT about a theory of anything, it is a way of looking at things, a perspective, a lens. It IS NOT a particular kind of theory general or not. Did you hear me, IT IS NOT ABOUT ANY PARTICULAR THEORY.

Here, let me show you ---

"However, the translation of the German into the English general system theory has "wroth a certain amount of Havoc" writes Ervin Laszlo[] in the preface of von Bertalanffy's book Perspectives on General System Theory.. []

"The original concept of general system theory was Allgemeine Systemtheorie (or Lehre). Now "Theorie" (or Lehre) just as Wissenschaft (translated Scholarship), has a much broader meaning in German than the closest English words "theory" and "science." A Wissenschaft is any organized body of knowledge, including the Geisteswissenschaften (Scholarship of Arts), which would not be considered true sciences in English usage. And Theorie applies to any systematically presented set of concepts, whether they are empirical, axiomatic, or philosophical. (Lehre comes into the same category, but cannot be properly translated. "Teaching," the closest equivalent, sounds dogmatic and off the mark. However, doctrine can be a translation for it as well."

"Thus when von Bertalanffy spoke of Allgemeine Systemtheorie, it was consistent with his view that he was proposing a new perspective, a new way of doing science. It was not directly consistent with an interpretation often put on "general system theory," to wit, that it is a (scientific) "theory of general systems." To criticize it as such is to shoot at straw men. Von Bertalanffy opened up something much broader and of much greater significance than a single theory (which, as we now know, can always be falsified and has usually an ephemeral existence): he created a new paradigm for the development of theories." Thomas Mandel

Tom: please sign all of your comments when you post them. --Larry Sanger 21:16, 19 September 2007 (CDT)

So what, Tom? Systems theory is so general and so vaguely/ill defined that different people in the movement have their own ideas about what it is and what it could mean, as elaborated in the ISSS article I linked to. So what those researchers may think of as "systems theory" may not even be what you think of as "systems theory". Probably they don't have a grand unifying, all explaining "principle of everything" in mind (I replace "theory" with "principle" as you like). Please correct the formatting of your last post as it is not readable. Thanks. Hendra I. Nurdin 21:21, 19 September 2007 (CDT)


- Nowhere in the article is a claim being made that there is a "general system theory" Your claims to the contrary are wrong. You are setting up situations which do not exist and then shooting them down. It is that kind of attitude that is creating havoc. - You refer us to a paper, but if you actually read the paper it says

From the above discussion it can be concluded that GST is not a theory. It is not a set of logically connected statements deductively or inductively arrived at. It is not an abstraction of empirical reality that could produce experimental prediction, rather it is a wide array of literature regarding different aspects of systems of every nature.

Systems thinking has sprouted in various fields. As everyone needs to know basic computing, everyday science, primary medicare, general courtesy etc. so, systems science has to be taken in such a level that everybody will need to know the basics of systems science or primary systems science. To reach this knowledge to everyone of the world, there could be a systems movement like human rights movement. But prior to that those basic knowledge is to be acquired. So, it needs intense intellectual discourse to gather knowledge regarding systems. - - AND - Systems studies is on the other hand, the study of systems that may be scientifically. The knowledge derived from systems studies itself is science. There should be a research group, teaching professionals and teaching curricula in all academic levels from primary to post-graduate regarding systems. There should be a cyclic relation among research, teaching and application. It would be a discipline to study systems of - different fields. There should be a demand for systems specialists in organizations (systems) of all types. This appears to be difficult but is possible. Before a couple of years there was no demand for interior designers and decorators, fashion designers etc., but in these days there is a big demand for those professionals because providing proper services they have been able to create demand for them. The same holds true for systems studies. The presence of systems specialists should ensure positive change in organizations (systems) and people have to recognize and appreciate such changes. Only then, organizations will search for systems specialists facing system trouble. First of all, a curriculum has to be developed. It may include courses like Theories of Systems, Methodology of Systems Research, specific systems studies like the economic system of Bangladesh, the decision-making system of the While House etc. It is possible to design a well-charted curriculum within 05-10 years. A group of systems specialists can be assigned with this responsibility. Scholars representing all institutions worldwide, those are now engaged in systems research and teaching can be given the responsibility of making a unified curriculum to be taught throughout the world. Keeping aside all other connotations, (movement, perspective, approach etc.) by making it an academic discipline and creating relations from research, teaching and application, we can derive immense benefit from systems studies in the service of mankind. The next ISSS annual conference theme is proposed to be ‘systems studies –an emerging academic discipline’. Or at least a Plenary Session can be devoted to this proposition. Based on the deliberations of scholars, the next steps should be taken to develop an academic discipline and create cyclic relations from research, teaching and application.

Finally the Conclusion

Systems Studies can teach us methodologies for studying systems, ways of identifying problems with systems, mastering techniques for eradicating those problems and ways to build new systems where necessary. There lies enough literature scatteredly in the area of systems. We need to put those in right order in- the shape of an academic discipline. Systems Studies is supposed to address questions like: What is a system? How systems in the real world can be identified? What are the elements of a system? What are the interactions among those elements? What are the principles of systems unctioning? How problems in a system can be traced and most advantageously eliminated? Putting the wide array of systems ideas in right order, answers to those questions can be obtained. The proposed academic discipline Systems Studies can greatly contribute to the welfare of mankind. Therefore, not giving up systems movement, but by reshaping it in the form of an academic discipline, great services can be rendered to mankind. +

I'd like to thank you for this article, because it is exactly what I am trying to do. In fact, our board of directors has already approved in principle a research project that may be the beginning of what the author is proposing. BTW, notice that Charles Francois is quoted by him more than anyone else, he is that single voice you chided me on. Perhaps this CZ article can be the seed article for such an academic program. But first we need to uderstand what makes our kind of system different from what everyone else regards as the real. Notice that he didn't mention the new categories of interaction that Bertalanffy called for. This is the key, to learn not what a thing is, but what a thing is doing. What are you doing? Why do you want to divide ewverything up? We are supposed to be bringing everything together. Why are you dividing everything up?

- Thomas Mandel 21:37, 19 September 2007 (CDT)

Tom, I'd like to ask you to calm down and take a break for a few days. --Larry Sanger 21:58, 19 September 2007 (CDT)

Why don't you tell her to work on her article and let me work on mine. This article is in preparation, it is not in the main namespace. Technically it isn't open to anyone but me.


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Could a constable please remove the above uncivil and unnecessarily inflammatory remark by Tom? TIA. Hendra I. Nurdin 22:36, 19 September 2007 (CDT)
  1. ↑ Citation here
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