CZ Talk:Dispute Resolution

How's this looking so far?? --Larry Sanger 14:51, 29 August 2007 (CDT)

It looks good, although somewhat indigestible. As a guiding document it will be fine, but possibly we will need to split it up into sub-areas, just for people to get their heads around it.--Martin Baldwin-Edwards 14:54, 29 August 2007 (CDT)

I think the idea of a Lead Workgroup Editor is important for streamlining decisions. I have to say, however, that when such people rule finally in their own areas of expertise, it can be hard for them to separate out their own biases. More often, it is likely to be an intelligent disinterested party who is most inclined to resolve neutrality issues. For example, if I were in a conflict about Bill Clinton, I'd far-and-above take a Gareth Leng--a Scottish physiologist with a great handle on neutrality--over a person more closely situated to the topic by nationality and discipline. Perhaps the idea of Neutrality Editors is worth considering.  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 15:16, 29 August 2007 (CDT)

Since the workgroup lead is going to have a lot of administration type duties as well, maybe they don't have to be editors. We could use people that are trained and good at resolving these issues whether they are authors, editors, or CEOs. --Matt Innis (Talk) 15:25, 29 August 2007 (CDT)

On Stephen's point, I agree absolutely. In my own work, it has been a great advantage to me to work on countries with which I have little personal connection, whereas people who are focused on their country of birth are not only narrow in experience,but also very narrow in perspective. Transferable skills is the key idea, I think.

On Matt's idea, I think that ideally we need for workgroup lead people who are broadly-based in the area, are at least of the intellectual standard of editors, and have proven skills in management or dispute resolution. I fear that the combination is quite rare, though... Without the status of editor for workgroup leader, it is likely that the others would not respect the process and we could have real legitimacy problems.--Martin Baldwin-Edwards 15:37, 29 August 2007 (CDT)

Steve, I agree with the idea that neutrality disputes are at least one special class of dispute that may call for a different method of resolution, one that is not so open to abuse. A group of Neutrality Editors might do the trick. Let me think some more about it; my concern is that for a long time I thought it would be the Judicial Board that would handle neutrality issues. But I can easily imagine that board getting too busy and becoming a bottleneck. So an intermediate "appeals body" seems to make sense. But then, we are already talking about an Editorial Appeals Committee. Here is what I propose. Since it is concerned with the interpretation of rules, not the creation of them, let's make the E.A.C. part of the "judiciary," and answerable to the Judicial Board. The J Board hears only the most difficult cases, as well as cases that involve getting rid of people (which bypass the E.A.C.).

I agree that there is no reason for these appeals bodies to be limited just to editors. I already have someone in mind for the Judicial Board who is not an editor, in fact.

More below. --Larry Sanger 11:19, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

I think it would be useful to make a distinction between disputes concerning individuals in their personal capacities, and complaints against CZ official bodies or processes. For the latter case, I suggest an Ombudsman and some assistants; s/he would be answerable to the Executive Committee of CZ, and could be removed only by unanimous vote. With luck, the procedure might not be needed, but I offer the idea anyway. --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 11:39, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

Editorial Appeals Committee

The section on The editors role in conflict resolution looks promising. I think the Editorial appeals committee will work to solve most, if not all, of our problems. --Matt Innis (Talk) 16:02, 29 August 2007 (CDT)

My issue with it is cumbersomeness. One might find this only transfers a disupte rather than solving it. :-D  —Stephen Ewen (Talk) 16:07, 29 August 2007 (CDT)

At wikipedia, it would. The key here is that Constables ban someone who does not obey the resolution. Harsh, definitely, but effectively stops there as far as the wiki is concerned. --Matt Innis (Talk) 16:09, 29 August 2007 (CDT)

Cumbersomeness (a cumbersome word, that) is a reasonable concern. Committees are famously slow. If several people have to weigh in, you can't get things solved in a few hours, in most cases; be thankful for a few days, and hope for less than a few weeks. But this slowness needn't gum up the wiki works. The Editorial Council is very slow, but so far I don't think that its slowness has made the wiki any slower. If an Editorial Appeals Committee is slow, then it will be used relatively seldom, which is a good thing. Top-down governance is best regarded as a last resort in a project that thrives on bottom-upness. --Larry Sanger

Will the proposed Editorial Appeals Committe be formed from an Editorial Appeals Workgroup or ALL the editors will comprise the Editorial Appeals Workgroup? Supten 00:03, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

Actually, on my revised notion, the committee would answer to the Judicial Board, not to the Editorial Council. There then remains the question what relationship would exist between workgroups and the J Board; see below. --Larry Sanger 12:05, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

Shortage of editors?

I think there is a problem. The articles entailing significant conflict tend to span workgroups, or be outside them - e.g. Jesus, Intelligent Design, Scientific Method, Pseudoscience, and those with political overtones where neutrality is about tone as much as content. Thus, I don't really see examples of conflict that can be resolved by a clear academic voice. Indeed, as the disputes often embrace editors with (if not comprehensive) relevant standing, it's hard to see us finding other editors with greater authority than those already involved. Nor can I see that recourse to a constable will help (in general) except to moderate behaviour; its a confusion of roles.

We are about writing good articles, first and last, not simply articles that cover everything at whatever cost to comprehension and impact. Whether an article is readable, interesting, coherent, logical, sensible, fluent, neutral in tone, attractive in presentation - these are important issues for guiding an article but can be judged by anyone, and these are lodestones that can guide an article past contentious areas.

We need, in cases of conflict, recourse to a group of editors from any background. If disputes do not revolve around factual issues but around issues of tone, balance, neutrality, presentation the issue to be judged is not a strictly academic one but should be about what steps are in the interests of making the best article that is possible. I think editors/authors whose expertise is outside the area of contention might be better placed to make recommendations, guided by these considerations, that would help resolve a conflict, and this would be better than adding another participant to a conflict. i.e. input from those the articles are intended to be read by; their perceptions of whether an article appears balanced and authoritative is important.

Finally we won't get final resolution without an approvals process that works for contentious articles. We don't have a workable mechanism for approving say Intelligent Design, even though that article now seems to be stable and in good shape.Gareth Leng 04:09, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

Gareth makes an important point, which previously I have also made in another context, about the viability of this "federalized" workgroup structure. Can I suggest a compromise?

(1) That we have broad workgroup structures, i.e. not Economics or Politics but Social Sciences, with a General Area Editor to help manage conflicts

(2) That General Editors from any discipline can [and perhaps should] be brought in to help with dispute resolution etc.

The appeal of this arrangement is that there would be some division of academic subjects allowing a degree of independent direction appropriate for each area, alongside a cross-over between broad disciplines which not only would help with disputes but would also tend to promote coherence within CZ on those tricky issues. --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 04:29, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

We have hundreds of authors that are underutilized. Many of them are better at solving disputes than we editors. --Matt Innis (Talk) 08:50, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

Agree with both. Gareth Leng 10:05, 30 August 2007 (CDT)