Talk:Wheat/Draft

Problems to solve

Fixed Edit link on template. Now points to CZ. Derek Harkness 05:10, 26 December 2006 (CST) Thanks Derek David Tribe 04:54, 27 December 2006 (CST)

Image needed in Cereals links table template at end : currently shows code garbage

Stages of growth photos are incomplete

Need to go over Euro costings to verify validity or delete it

David Tribe 04:55, 27 December 2006 (CST)

Replaced Euro cost with sourced US ERS 2002 cost data. David Tribe 19:59, 28 December 2006 (CST)

A major content weakness still is the section on wheat diseases, and the wiki linked article is not readable either

David Tribe 20:58, 2 January 2007 (CST)

A number of grammar, spelling and syntax errors corrected as minor edits on 3 Jan 2007.

The following are comments that seem to need further input from others with appropriate expertise:

With population growth rates falling, while yields continue to rise, the acreage devoted to wheat may now begin to decline for the first time in modern human history.[13][10]

Is there empirical evidence that total global population growth rates are falling such that the comment can fairly be substantiated?

Response: Thanks for point , its a carryover from WP. Ill fix it and the others David Tribe 16:23, 4 January 2007 (CST). Text context of lack of wheat growth repositioned David Tribe 17:52, 5 January 2007 (CST)

Genes for the dwarfing trait, which changes plant stature, have had a huge effect on wheat yields world-wide and were major factors in the success of the Green revolution in Mexico and Asia. By 1997, 81% of the developing world was planted to semidwarf wheats, giving both increased yields and better response to nitrogenous fertilizer.

The problem called 'lodging' in taller varieties may merit a mention. 'Lodging' is when a ear stalk bends, or breaks (usually under adverse weather conditions) and does not recover to the vertical position for the seed head to mature. DONE BY Perry and David David Tribe 16:32, 6 January 2007 (CST)

Pests. Wheat is used as a food plant by the larvae of some Lepidoptera species including The Flame, Rustic Shoulder-knot, Setaceous Hebrew Character and Turnip Moth.

Should storage pests be included here? E.g. Indian meal moth, grain weevil?

Soft White — Soft, light colored, very low protein wheat grown in temperate moist areas. Used for pie crusts and pastry. Pastry flour, for example, is sometimes made from soft white winter wheat.

The last two sentences appear to contain a redundancy, but I was hesitant to edit it.

--Perry Spiller 02:51, 3 January 2007 (CST) Dont be shy Perry, and Thanks. Now deleted David Tribe 16:37, 6 January 2007 (CST)

I believe the following sentence(s) needs reworking:

"mutant forms with tough ears which remained attached to the ear"  (in the History section) Pedro Silva 04:27, 3 January 2007 (CST)

Comments

Not convinced that this is ready for approval yet. Did a bit of fact checking - the Fertile Crescent isn't really southwest Asia - in particular it includes Egypt. The origins of cultivation according to Diamond are 8500 BCE not 10,000 BCE (using BCE not B.P. ?). 

s RESPONSE:

Here are better sources than Diamond favoring the earlier dates. Note wheat was not necessarily the first cultivated plant- possibly rye preceded it.

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/288/5471/1602?ijkey=db541724bf63975055a312549115ef53284a9e97&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

A crucial event in human history was the beginning of agriculture about 10,000 years ago in the Pre-Pottery Neolithic Near East (citing HN1 links ).

NHI links text :  is G. K. Sams provides a  guide to the terminology of the Neolithic in the Near East for a course on the archaeology of the ancient Near East.  Britannica.com provides an Encyclopædia Britannica article about the  history of agriculture. The  Agropolis-Museum, Montpellier, France, offers a  Web exhibit on the history of food and agriculture.  W. Poe, Department of History, Sonoma State University, Rohnert Park, CA, provides  lecture notes on the emergence of agricultural communities for a course on the Ancient Near East; satellite images illustrating the  geography of the Near East and the locations of  Near East archaeological sites are provided.  G. Conrad, Department of Anthropology, Indiana University, presents  lecture notes on agricultural origins in the Near Eastern Neolithic for a  course on the rise and fall of civilizations.  Indira Gandhi National Open University, New Delhi, makes available lecture notes for a  course on social evolution that includes a presentation on  first farmers of western Asia.

The Holocene, Vol. 11, No. 4, 383-393 (2001) New evidence of Lateglacial cereal cultivation at Abu Hureyra on the Euphrates Gordon Hillman (Institute of Archaeology, University College London, 31–34 Gordon Square, London WC1H 0PY, UK Robert Hedges Research Laboratory for Archaeology and History, University of Oxford, 6 Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3QJ, UK Andrew Moore Office of the Dean, College of Liberal Arts, Rochester Institute of Technology, 92 Lomb Memorial Drive, Rochester, New York 14623–5604, USA) Susan Colledge (Institute of Archaeology, University College London, 31–34 Gordon Square, London WC1H 0PY, UK Paul Pettitt Research Laboratory for Archaeology and History, University of Oxford, 6 Keble Road, Oxford OX1 3QJ, UK

Hitherto, the earliest archaeological finds of domestic cereals in southwestern Asia have involved wheats and barleys dating from the beginning of the Holocene, 11–12000 calendar years ago. New evidence from the site of Abu Hureyra suggests that systematic cultivation of cereals in fact started well before the end of the Pleistocene by at least 13000 years ago, and that rye was among the first crops. The evidence also indicates that hunter-gatherers at Abu Hureyra first started cultivating crops in response to a steep decline in wild plants that had served as staple foods for at least the preceding four centuries. The decline in these wild staples is attributable to a sudden, dry, cold, climatic reversal equivalent to the ‘Younger Dryas’ period. At Abu Hureyra, therefore, it appears that the primary trigger for the occupants to start cultivating caloric staples was climate change. It is these beginnings of cultivation in the late Pleistocene that gave rise to the integrated grain-livestock Neolithic farming systems of the early Holocene. David Tribe 17:03, 6 January 2007 (CST)

Also I think that the emphasis on Egypt is wrong as Ive get to see a date in Egpt for wheat approach rhe antiquity of the Turkish sites.

Some of the statements appear to be specific to the USA, but not clear that this was so. 81% of the developing world is planted with wheat? really can't believe this is true.

RESPONSE 81 percent of wheat planted is is indeed semi dwarf . I sighted it in one on the general refs but this time decided to omit a citation (just after reading the debate about excessive citation in the Forums!) Will edit to improve clarity.David Tribe 16:53, 4 January 2007 (CST)

What about GM varieties?

Not yet part of the major story. GM wheat has been strongly resisted in North America but this might change (low profitabliity has driven farmers there to GM corn soy). David Tribe 16:53, 4 January 2007 (CST)

Pests aren't really covered - think that rats mice and bird damage might be mentioned.

Great suggestion. Biblical plagues come to mind plus the ecology of massive food availabliity . Theres also some great Australian mice plague anecdotes - including (maybe not) Bowyangs. David Tribe 16:53, 4 January 2007 (CST)

The origins of cultivation are clearly very interesting but not covered convincingly - what is the evidence exactly? 

RESPONSE: I have now done a lot of delving into the primary literature on agriculures/culticated wheat's origins, and this is being written into the text David Tribe 17:03, 6 January 2007 (CST)

The style is a bit of a hybrid, jumping between genetic technicalities and simple, lay accounts. Would have liked to see pictures of modern wheats compared with wild forms.Gareth Leng 06:26, 3 January 2007 (CST)

RESPONSES: Especially thanks for style comments. I'd neglected this here but happened to be also developing Crop origins and evolution ( Im inserting this in Wheat as cross reference) where better more authoritive sources than Jared Diamond have been cited. Jared D is sometimes a bit short on primary research, although a fabulous biology writer. To take this further we need to set a target of having modern PRIMARY SOURCES on key facts which I am now working up (see later responses in serted above) . David Tribe

Reading through, and although I am in no position to check the botanical or agricultural accuracy, I think it's well written and informative in style. There is a sentence: "Commercial hybrid wheat seed has been produced using chemical hybridizing agents; these chemicals selectively interfere with pollen development, or naturally occurring cytoplasmic male sterility systems." Are there chemicals that promote naturally occurring cytoplasmic male sterility systems? " If so, I think you should put that word in, if not, I don't understand the sentence. Will go back and keep reading. Nancy Sculerati MD 08:19, 3 January 2007 (CST)

Reponse: Another WP carryover. Sometimes Im a little shy at editing WP stuff and annoyingly they never seem to cite sources!! David Tribe 16:29, 4 January 2007 (CST)

Made various edits. I separated Nile Delta and Fertile Crescent. Frankly, I think equatorial (and there abouts) Africa always gets the short shrift, but there is no historical record to prove it. In the US, the lack of history outside of the desert regions of Africa has been classically used to taunt people of African descent as to their lack of civilized where with all, and yet, from everything I've read, even in the Nile Delta area, there is nothing to record what went on except in those desert tombs that were isolated and hidden in a favorable climate for preservation. Meaning, that it seems reasonable that people of the warmer and more humid climates of Africa, where it seems we existed for exponentially many generations before getting elsewhere, likely did a lot of the "firsts". But if there is no record of even the villages that existed along the Northern Nile, only what got squirreled away in stone buried in desert sands, that there is no way that cultures along, say, the Niger River, or the other end of the Nile, have a "historical record". Anyway, I personally think it's enough to generally indicate where the historical record of wheat/grass agriculture starts without worrying about dilineating beween one desert nation and the next. Here's another sentence I don't understand: "For example, the meïosis stage is very susceptible to low temperatures (below 4°C) or high temperatures (above 25°C)." What is the meiosis stage of wheat? I think the article is quite close to approval. Perhaps Chris Day, who is a botanist, might look at it. I'll "talk" to him. Nancy Sculerati MD 09:00, 3 January 2007 (CST)

I am a botanist but not an expert on wheat. This article if from an agronomy perspective and i am as weak as anyone in that area. I will read through it though, and check when i have time. Chris Day (Talk) 09:08, 3 January 2007 (CST)

 Two possibly interesting links: [1]

[2]Gareth Leng 12:00, 3 January 2007 (CST) Ill use these or similar somehow David Tribe 16:55, 4 January 2007 (CST)

Having looked at the links above, I say- see cats(history of domestication)  :-) Nancy Sculerati MD 14:44, 3 January 2007 (CST)