User talk:Larry Sanger

Larry Sanger

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Definitions: what are they and why do we need them?

Excuse me for being stupid, but nowhere in all these discussions in various Forums and User Pages do I find a *clue* as to *why* we want a "definition" or as to *what* it is. All I can glean is that if an article such as Ray Casey currently has a Def. tab at the top, that means that there is *no* "definiton" and that one should therefore be written on the Def. tab page.

• Once this is written, apparently, in a truly existential act (or non-act) the Def. tab disappears!
  • If the Def. tab is now invisible, then what good is it?
  • What does the new definition (invisible, remember) accomplish? Something, apparently, or all this discussion about it would not be underway. But for a guy like me, who just wants to write simple-minded articles about Backhand (tennis) and Spareribs (barbecued), what am I missing? Hayford Peirce 12:41, 12 May 2008 (CDT)

Well...we decided to have definitions etc. back when we instituted subpages. Their purpose can be ascertained on CZ:Related Articles: they make those subpages much more usable. They have only recently become visible because Chris had the bright idea of how to move definitions to subpages from their current locations.

Hmm, yes, we know that the def tab disappears. That's its designed behavior (you should talk to User:Chris Day about this). It is interesting that you find this disconcerting. Tell this to Chris! If you find it disconcerting, so do I. --Larry Sanger 15:29, 12 May 2008 (CDT)

Two problems seem to be emerging here. One, the def tab is not liked by all, even as a reminder. Two, the noinclude code at the top of the definition subpage is causing confusion. One solution might be to axe the tab and the code at the top and go with a definition subpage that does not include the subpages template. After all if there is no tab link then readers will not surf onto that page, it will essentially be invisible until someone want to edit the definition. All we would lose would be a category that can show us our definition subpages that are not as part of a cluster.

If we are going with a hidden def subpage then maybe we should just go with it being in the metadata? In the long term i envisage that the user interface with the metadata page will be very user friendly and adding the definition there will be as easy as typing into a text box. If that is likely to be the case it might solve future problems to have the definition there from the start? Do you have a strong reason for having it on its own subpage? Basically, neither place is perfect, so I wonder if we need to think more long term. Maybe a computer expert is the right one to ask for an opinion on this? Chris Day 22:00, 12 May 2008 (CDT)

I agree that if editing the definition in the metadata were just as easy as typing it into its own text box, then I would support that change. But...it isn't as easy. And, it probably won't become as easy anytime soon. I'm not sure what future problems this might solve. And, after all, when we do have a more automated metadata solution, presumably we'll have a lot more programming help and so we'll be able to switch the location then. Sure, consult all relevant experts! I'm just concerned about keeping it maximally simple to use.

I don't mind removing the def tab. As long as it's on the talk page, as it is now, that ought to be enough for our purposes. But--and this is something worth thinking and discussing some more--there is one decided advantage to keeping the def tab there. It is that it is obviously a little "itch" that contributors have been "scratching." And it's an itch that has been needed to be scratched. So, if we were to remove the def tab, there would be both good and bad: on the one hand, we would simplify the subpage templates (for definitionless articles); on the other hand, we would not produce quite as many definitions (how many fewer, it's hard to say). I'd leave this up to you, Chris... --Larry Sanger 12:39, 13 May 2008 (CDT)

What about the removal of the noinclude code and subpages template from the definition subpage? Is there any good reason for keeping it? Without a tab for the definition page in the cluster then no readers will be browsing the definition subpage.

Personally, i think the tab serves a useful role in causing an itch. I wonder whether we should keep that and the To-do list reminder for now.

Another reason for not going the metadata location route is that the pre include size of the R template will increase, potentially by a lot. Chris Day 14:15, 13 May 2008 (CDT)

Good points. Yes, I don't mind removing {{subpages}} from the Definition subpages. No point to having it there if it's not going to be viewed by users.

OK I'm just going to play devil's advocate--I don't care, but maybe users would like to see a Definition page. Want a single simple definition, that's all? There it is. Want more info? Click the tabs. By the way, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have a little graphic (which we can take down after some months?) advertising the existence of more content, when it exists. "Look above --> for more content on this topic." And after all, sometimes people do search for definitions. If we have a page titled "Term > Definition" we'll probably bring in traffic just from that. At least there could be such a graphic/message on the Definition subpage.

If we did have a non-disappearing Definition tab, I'm thinking that writing out "Definition" would be better than "Def" -- the former is clearer and more user-friendly rather than contributor-friendly. But it would make me worried that, as on articles like Life, there would be too many tabs! I'm sure you have worried about wrapping tabs. Remember, I warned this would be a problem with horizontal display of subpage links!!!

I predict that if we don't include {{subpages}} on the Definition subpages, some people will put it there not realizing that those subpages are used as templates, and will proceed to screw up Related Articles pages. I don't know how serious a problem this would be, but it probably would be an annoying little problem at least. --Larry Sanger 14:26, 13 May 2008 (CDT)

Since i developed both I abstained from the vote since I didn't want my endorsement to color the debate. :) Often I will push both sides of a debate just to get feedback and make sure i have seen all the possible solutions. Besides we can always switch back to vertical if it becomes a real problem, that is more about aesthetics than function.

I had not thought about people entering from an external search. That is a good a reason to keep tabs on the definition page. Obviously anything on that page, other than the definition, has to be within noinclude tags so if we went with a graphic we might as well go the whole hog with the the subpages template. I think you are also correct that it might be tempting for people to add the subpages template if one is not there. And that would really mess up the related articles pages. How about we leave everything as it is for a while and see how people respond after a month. In summary:

1. I'll make the red tab name read "definition" but keep its disappearing property once the defintion exists.
2. I'll keep the subpages template between the noinclude tags
3. I'll keep the to-do list reminder.

Chris Day 14:55, 13 May 2008 (CDT)

1CE

I solved that problem there was a template in the wrong place. Not sure how I missed it. Chris Day 22:02, 12 May 2008 (CDT)