Talk:White Argentine

Removal

Removal suggested by Aleta Curry 22:39, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Editorial Council: Case 2011-009

Opened: Peter Schmitt 23:10, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Closed:

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Comments

Hello,

This article has just come to the unofficial attention of the Editorial Council, of which I am the Secretary. In the near future, once we have studied it more carefully, it will almost certainly be either moved from Main Space to an area where it will not be easily found by the general public, or it will be deleted entirely. First of all, it appears to be an article imported directly and entirely from Metapedia -- and Citizendium does not allow articles from other sources to imported. Second, it appears to be making an argument about "Whites" in Argentina. I see that the same article, or similar articles, were either banned from Wikipedia or entirely rewritten, because of the apparent "racism" of the article. Citizendium is no different from Wikipedia in our attitude towards racism -- we simply do not permit it, nor anything that might appear to be racist in either intent or appearance. Citizendium welcomes articles about just about any topic in the world, but they MUST be original articles, written for Citizendium, and not copies of articles that have appeared anywhere else, and they must ALWAYS be written in a manner that cannot conceivably be called racist or that is pushing an agenda of any of its authors. Hayford Peirce 22:05, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm going to move that the article be removed forthwith, on the grounds that it is an import from Metapedia, and Metapedia is self-avowedly a project with an agenda.

I find the subject inherently problematic and controversial, in that

1. the Government of Argentine itself does not make this distinction and in fact, to my knowledge the Argentine government does not even ask about ethnicity in its censuses;
2. the concept of 'white people' is not one that finds its way into current enlightened discourse and such terms are used advisedly and in limited context, for some very good reasons. We avoid racialist discussions that suggest the superiority of one group over another, or imply or lead to the notion of eugenics.

Certainly the article might encompass some topics that would be of interest and benefit to a general encyclopaedia, among these are: Argentine immigration, Argentine demographics, languages of Argentine, religion in Argentina etc., but these must be discussed in an appropriate, non-racist manner.

Aleta Curry 22:39, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

This article clearly is not suitable for CZ. I suggest to replace it by

Term used for Argentinians of European descent, mostly used in a racist context.

and make it a /Definition subpage. --Peter Schmitt 23:41, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

What's racist about the article? Where does it suggest the whites are superior? On the contrary, it mentions at least 3 times ill-treatment and discrimination directed against others. Peter Jackson 14:40, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

And, though Argentina may not any longer compile census statistics on race, many countries do, including UK. Peter Jackson 14:41, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Very true Peter. Considering how many reputable sources use the term white Argentinian it would be interesting to know where those making charges of racism got their information from, especially considering that under the Peron Constitution immigration was restricted to whites only. And I must concur with your second point - having been involved with the census process of three European countries I can tell you that questions about race are far more common than has been alluded to here by non-experts. David Finn 16:02, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

This article is not racist.

Greetings; my name is Pablo Zampini, and I am the author of this article, and I did not write it with any racist idea in mind. It only describes the history of many Eurodescendants living and residing in Argentina. I defend the existance of this article for the following reasons:

• The article exists in Wikipedia under the name Argentines of European descent. It underwent a long discussion -detractors oppose to the use of the word "white" in the title- and a name change, but it was finally accepted after several wording changes.
• Being the primary author of the article, I kept my version of the article and exported it to two different wikisites: one copy is the one we are discussing about now, and the other copy is here.
• As all wikisites allow free copying and pasting of their contents, other readers may do so and export them to other wiki encyclopedias. The article version in Metapedia was apparently copied and pasted by a user named "Parmeggiani", who appears to have interest in this topic, too. Note, anyway, that my version of the article was left untouched in that site, allowing the Jews to be considered White -something that the Nazis deny- and even mentioning "Nazi war criminals" in the History section which deals with immigration after WW2. If anyone here wants to complain to Metapedia for the copyright of this article, feel free to do so; I will not oppose.
• I read the article over and over again, and I don't find a single word or sentence that may sound "racist" or despising other races. That is what "racism" means to me. There are sentences in which I denounce how Mestizos, Blacks and Amerindian Argentines were used as cannon fodder first, and how many Mestizo/Amerindian immigrants from Bolivia and Paraguay are exploited today in Argentina.
• The concept "White Argentine" exists in much bibliography in English; it even appears in the magazine "Ebony". See here, for example.
• If I had written and article on Black Argentines or Amerindian Argentines, there would be no necessity to defend them, for they would not be considered racist articles.

If the problem is that there are other copies of this article in other wikisites, I offer to change its wording and images, so it will look different. Or if anyone wants to do such changes himself, feel free to do so.--Pablo Martín Zampini 16:30, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for these explanations, Pablo. Whether the article is racist or not needs, of course, careful evaluation. However, the fact that the article is accepted by Metapedia, a clearly racist site (and, as it seems, only by Metapedia) raises to suspicion that it shows (at least) a strong bias. (Independent of its content the article violates the regulation on imports.) --Peter Schmitt 02:05, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Any discussion about racism is, at this point, moot

Whether or not the article is racist, and I think we should accept the author's declaration that the intent is not racist, the article must be either moved or removed because of a greater consideration: the decision, by a 6-1 vote, of the Editorial Council concerning imported articles at http://ec.citizendium.org/wiki/EC:PR-2010-013.

The text of the Resolution reads:

The importation of articles copied from other sources, in particular from other Internet encylopedias such as Wikipedia, is not allowed.

The only exceptions to this general rule are articles written originally almost entirely by the Citizen who imports them and who, in addition, is also an active contributor, and

specific articles that are explicitly accepted by the Editorial Council.

If Pablo can find, say, the original text of the Wikipedia article written entirely by him, then that material may be imported into Citizendium, as many other articles have been. He may not, however, bring in a later version that was edited by other people. Assuming that Pablo can bring in a version written entirely by him, the Editorial Council would then consider whether that article is racist or not. You will also note that the Resolution says that in addition the author must be an active contributor. Pablo, however, is an active contributor only in the sense that he has contributed this single article and nothing else. The purpose of the wording in the Resolution is to specifically prohibit contributors who come to Citizendium to write a single article advancing their agenda of perhaps dubious quality and then leave without ever making any further contributions. Hayford Peirce 17:57, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

What that resolution does not provide is a definition of active Citizen that would supercede that which is found at CZ:Editorial Council Resolution 0012, which seems rather an oversight considering that the whole resolution hinges on that definition. David Finn 18:15, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

That's the definition of active Editor, not Citizen. Peter Jackson 18:29, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

No, the whole Resolution does not hinge on that definition. We could have an indisputedly active contributor such as Norman Gardner or John Brews who brought in a Wikipedia article, or one from some other source, and, given the fact that it was an imported article, it would be removed. The additional phrase had, and still has, a clear purpose: to prevent people with an agenda, generally one of self-promotion, from bringing in an article of marginal quality and dubious provenance, dumping it upon us, and then vanishing forever. This has happened a number of times in the past, and this Resolution was, in part, written to address the issue. Hayford Peirce 18:32, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

(PS: it's claimed there are 20 active Editors on that definition.) Peter Jackson 18:35, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

EC:R-2010-013 makes exceptions only for "active contributors" (of content), i.e., for authors who already have contributed sufficiently to other articles. Pablo's first and only contribution is this article, and it is a copy of a WP article that he previously distributed to several other sites. Therefore its import violates the EC regulation, independent of its content.

By the way, he copied the same article to Knowino on June 2011 [1], two days earlier than to CZ (where it was moved to his user space on June 3). On June 4 he copied it to CZ. While, of course, CZ has to decide independently it is also clear that CZ is not the last resort for articles that other sites reject with (probably) good reasons.

--Peter Schmitt 01:50, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

The article was written almost entirely by me.

This article was almost entirely written by me; it was just two or three paragraphs long when I started to expand it to its current length. Please check the article's history -I appear as Pablozeta- and you will see that the version published here is almost the same version of the article before it was criticized and changed in its wording and title.

If I am a not such an active contributor now it is because I have two jobs, a wife, two sons and a step-daughter to take care of. Besides, I am also contributing with the Spanish version of another wikisite named Wikinfo, founded by Fred Bauder -who also is a Wikipedia administrator himself-.--Pablo Martín Zampini 18:47, 15 December 2011 (UTC)