Talk:Roast turkey/Archive 1

Mary, CZ articles are not written just for American readers

Imagine that you are, for example, a citizen of Sri Lanka, China, Croatia, Turkey (especially Turkey), Morocco, Peru, Iran, Malaysia or Ghana:

• What is Thanksgiving?
• What is a turkey ?
• What is a stuffed turkey ?
• What is stuffing ?
• What is defrosting ?
• What are leftovers ?
• What are degrees F ?
• What is a pound ?
• Who or what is the USDA ?

Mary, please remember that you are writing for a much wider audience than a small town in the desert area of Southern California. Just as one example, we are the only nation in the world that still uses the degrees F to measure temperature and pounds to measure weight. Also keep in mind that the are many, many people in the world who don't have access to frozen foods (and would not know what is meant by "defrosting") nor would they have access to grocery stores that sell "stuffing".

This article, as it now stands, is an excellent example of what is called an "ethnocentric" article ... and that is not good. Milton Beychok 02:30, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Milt for your insightful comments. I have asked Hayford to take a look at the article and he said he would. Also, I do realize the article was more US oriented but I haven't had time to go back to work on it. Today, was a family celebration so I've spent most the day cooking and cleaning. My thinking too is the article is about a roast turkey. Wouldn't it be wise to use links for stuffing, cranberry sauce, pumpkin pie as they are served as side dishes with the roast turkey which the article is about. And as always this is a wiki where anyone can edit any article at any time. And this being Citizendium a Food Science editor will ultimately edit the article too. BTW I have celebrated Thanksgiving in Canada, which should be today Oct. 11, and they celebrate much the same as we do. And for another comment try watching Mr. Bean as he celebrates Thanksgiving in a very unique fashion.Mary Ash 02:59, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

BTW I cook using farenheight not centrigrade therefore it is written that way. I can, and may, find the conversion charts but I am sure with your scientific background you could easily add that information. What do you think Milt?Mary Ash 03:01, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

In the context of a recipe it makes no sense to give centigrade values up to two digits after the comma when converting from Fahrenheit. This is pretending an accuracy that is not needed and not possible. --Peter Schmitt 09:14, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanksgiving and other matters

Milt I just checked and there is an active link to Thanksgiving which should cover the issue you addressed. There is also an active link for Christmas. I have added internal links to the side dishes so the links will explain each food item. As I wrote earlier the article is about Roast Turkey not Thanksgiving. Thanks!Mary Ash 03:14, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

move to a new title

I agree with Milt that the present article is far too much directed to the American audience. French people, after all, roast and eat turkeys, and they certainly don't do it on Thanksgiving. They also stuff them with chestnuts. Brits love them. I have Italian recipes for them. Mexicans roast them, then serve them with mole sauce. I won't say anything more about the article itself, but I think that by moving it to this new title 99.99% of the objections that Milt has raised will vanish. Hayford Peirce 04:05, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

If the new title makes you happy...a roast turkey is a roast turkey. You insert the defrosted turkey in the oven and roast it. Before you roast it you have to defrost it. I suspect defrosting and roasting turkeys world round are done the same way.Mary Ash 04:20, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Have you never heard of fresh, unfrozen turkeys? They actually exist. Hayford Peirce 04:39, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, and the article does include this information. In fact, I've cooked a few organic, fresh roast turkeys as my Dad is allergic to a lot of the preservatives found in frozen turkeys. The article does address how to defrost and roast fresh or frozen turkeys.Mary Ash 04:46, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

The article states: Fresh turkeys can also be roasted. Purchase a fresh turkey two days before you plan to roast it. Store the fresh turkey in the refrigerator until you are ready to roast it. Mary Ash 04:48, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Title Request

I searched the wiki to find out if there is a tag for a title request. I could not find one. I respectfully request the title be reverted back to Roast turkey. Roasting a turkey is the same no matter where you live. I will add the centigrade measurements later but I've been busy today. Thank you.Mary Ash 06:44, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

This is neither an article on "Roast turkey" nor on "Roast turkey (American)" -- it is a recipe that can be put on a Recipe subpage of such an article. --Peter Schmitt 08:21, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

My thought also. A good example is Pancake, which has a main article about the history and culture, and a separate Recipes tab for recipes. This is just a variation on cooking turkeys, so would be better as a subarticle of the article on turkeys, on Thanksgiving maybe, or perhaps American cuisine. David Finn 08:26, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Peter, I am not sure if this is an encyclopedic article at all. It is more of a "How to" article than an encyclopedia article. What do you think? Milton Beychok 07:30, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Of course, I agree, Milt. This is certainly not a main page encyclopedic article. It is a yet incomplete "How to" that can be put on a subpage. (see the next section). --Peter Schmitt 11:22, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Rewrote the intro and removed any comments about the side dishes

I rewrote the intro and removed any comments about side dishes. The article now stands alone about roasting a turkey. I was only trying to jazz up the article earlier and make it a bit more interesting. The article is now without the side dishes, etc.Mary Ash 06:52, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

This recipe concentrates on actions that are evident ("Remove the turkey from the refrigerator.") and general remarks ("Promptly refrigerate the cooked turkey"), but forgets to deal with points vital for a recipe (spices!), and the various types of meat offered by a turkey. --Peter Schmitt 09:24, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

This article is not a recipe. It's basic instructions on how to roast a turkey safely. If you wish you could re-title the article to How to Roast a Turkey Safely I guess...shades of wikiHow :-) Mary Ash 15:19, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

What else is a recipe as a how-to, a how-to-cook-a-dish? And how-to articles are not encyclopedic articles. They belong on a subpage of a corresponding article. But even as a recipe/how-to this needs more work: How to spice it? How to prepare the stuffing? Moreover, recipes should be based on fresh and freshly prepared ingredients, frozen ingredients are only a (second-choice) replacement if no fresh ones are available. Thus the handling of frozen ingredients should rather be mentioned at the end of the recipe (as a sort of post-scriptum). --Peter Schmitt 11:35, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Left the term stuffing in the article for food safety purposes

I left the term stuffing in the article for food safety purposes. Also, Merriam-Webster defines stuffing to mean: ": material used to stuff; especially : a seasoned mixture used to stuff food (as meat, vegetables, or eggs)" This would include almost any known worldwide cuisine using stuffing such as rice, vegetables, couscous, potatoes, bread, nuts and chestnuts. A very simple stuffing would be tossing in onions, carrots, celery and seasonings. I think this covers the stuffing "problem".Mary Ash 07:05, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

A stuffing prepared separately is not a stuffing. For a stuffing it is important to be prepared together with the meat. How else should it develop its aroma? What is the safety issue with a (true) stuffing?? --Peter Schmitt 08:19, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Oh, this is a recent Anglo-American obsession -- that it is a health hazard to cook the stuffing inside the turkey so everything has to be prepared separately. I have to say that I do not cook turkey at this high temperature (which is far higher than needed)and I do cook stuffing in the turkey, but have a much longer cooking time for these two reasons. I found preparation and cooking times given by professional chefs, which are very different from the government advice in the USA and UK. Generally, professional chefs are scathing about this official advice, which seems to be more concerned with minimising the risk of undercooking and food poisoning than actually giving the optimal cooking procedures (which are also completely safe, but less foolproof).Martin Baldwin-Edwards 09:59, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I have to agree with you both about the stuffing issue. As this is supposed to be an encyclopedia with verifiable facts, I used the USDA recommendations. I don't normally stuff a turkey as I like to get the cooking done with quickly as I live in the middle of a desert and it usually warm outside. The USDA concern is that the stuffing will not reach a high enough temperature to safely "kill" off any pesky germs. The stuffing is also a breeding ground for bacteria, according to the USDA. Mary Ash 15:17, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, prepared wrongly, stuffing can produce bacterial problems. Perhaps we can find some sources on the web, but there is guidance on this from outside the USA. In particular, the stuffing must be cool when put into the turkey; it is recommended to fill the neck only with meat stuffing; and the large cavity should be stuffed with vegetable-based stuffing. And, of course, the cooking time has to be increased to ensure that everything is cooked to a high enough temperature. To prevent burning of the turkey flesh, there are some additional techniques such as cooking in foil for 3/4 of the cooking time; cooking mostly on its breast (the wings etc need a higher temperature) and an Arabic one that I use, consisting of coating periodically with thick yoghourt spiced with salt and black pepper. So, there are many variations in cooking turkey! Martin Baldwin-Edwards 15:29, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Peter said it best. Honestly, now! My mother, grandmother, great-grandmother, and I daresay *her* great grandmother stuffed turkeys for *years*! To my knowledge no one ever died of the dread turkey stuffing. This is ridic!

Y'know, I once put a very well seasoned pork roast on a very low fire, and fell asleep! It cooked all night and was the best pork loin I've ever baked in my life. I didn't know I shouldn't do that or it would apparently kill me...go figure....

Aleta Curry 04:44, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Low-temperature cooking is a very modern and trendy method used in some of the best restaurants. --Peter Schmitt 09:48, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Added Gas Mark Conversion for oven temp

To widen the reading audience, and to make it less ethnocentric, I have included the Gas Mark temperature for roasting a turkey.Mary Ash 15:17, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Mary, I am not trying to be difficult ... but what is Mark 3 or Gas Mark 3? Our gas oven is only a few years old and I can't find any "Gas Mark" on it anywhere. Also, I still think you need to define what a turkey is even if you only place place a wiki link around it like this: [[Turkey (fowl)| turkey]]. That formatting (including the word "fowl" in parenthesis is needed to distinguish it from the country of Turkey). Milton Beychok 02:17, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

The Gas Mark is a temperature scale for gas ranges or cookers. It is used by the United Kingdom, Ireland and some Commonwealth of Nations countries (source Wikipedia) although I first saw this measurement in a French cookbook almost 30 years ago. I found the cookbook at a used bookstore out in the middle of the desert. This was before the Internet so I used to take wild guesses on what temp to use but compared similar recipes and things turned out fine. I hope that helps. I will add an article about the turkey tomorrow. I have to go sweep and mop the kitchen.Mary Ash 03:06, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

If I read "source Wikipedia" one more time I will scream. David Finn 06:55, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Mary, if you are to keep the words "Gas Mark 3" in the article, then the article should explain what it is ... otherwise Americans like me with a GE gas oven won't know what you are talking about. Alternatively, reference it (but don't use Wikipedia as the reference, find another reference somewhere). I have to go do my exercises, sweep the patio free of leaves, check for applications from prospective new CZ members, and a dozen other things ... so we are all just as busy as you are. Milton Beychok 07:22, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

(unindent)Gas Mark is a standard European measurement. Just because it is not American, does not mean it needs and explanation unless you plan to explain Centrigrade (Celsius) to Americans (most Americans do not use metric) in articles or Fahrenheit to the rest the world (who do use metric measurements) who do not use it. It seems rather ethnocentric to assume that everyone would know these measurements, or not in the case of the Gas Mark for Amercians, if we started explaining such things. The Gas Mark has been in use in the UK and related countries since 1958 (not WP). Just because us Americans don't use it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. BTW in the case of metric measurements we should explain those too. As the metric measurements are not equal worldwide. The Canadian, Australian and US metric measurements are all different for example.Should we break down and explain each measurement in every article. Just some questions.Mary Ash 15:08, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Gas Mark links:

• http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/gas-cookers-d_130.html (Engineering Toolbox)
• http://www.oed.com/bbcwords/gas.html (OED)
• http://www.practicallyedible.com/edible.nsf/pages/oventemperatures; (Practically Edible)
• http://hailbritannia.com/2009/01/12/a-british-cookbook-primer/ (Hail Britannia)
• http://www.circlecity.co.uk/kitchen/conversions/gasmark_temperatures.php (Another conversion chart)

As you can see the Gas Mark is alive and well in Europe.Mary Ash 15:30, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the Gas Mark is a very old measurement for domestic gas cookers in the UK. I never liked it, I have to say, as I prefer to work in in units of measurement that I can more or less understand. From Mary's links, it looks as if it is still in use. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 15:36, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

I see no reason why "Gas Mark" values should not be included. An explanation can be given by a link to a short article Gas mark. --Peter Schmitt 15:46, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Peter. The term "Gas Mark" appears to be used frequently in cookbooks published in the UK (at least the ones I have). Sometimes the word "regulo" (e.g., "bake 30 minutes regulo 3") is used as well. It seems to me that including "Gas Mark" (with link to a lemma) is a very appropriate response to the quite vigorous demands that have been made throughout the writing of this article to make it less Americo-centric. Bruce M. Tindall 15:56, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

(unindent)Mary, we do explain degrees Celsius and degrees Fahrenheit and degrees Kelvin, all of which are in use in one country or another. We have the Celsius (unit), Fahrenheit (unit) and Kelvin (unit) articles and those words should be wiki linked to as I have done here in this sentence. The only reason I didn't point this out earlier is that I didn't want to overload you.

Mary, when I write an article for CZ, I do my best to write it so that it will be understood by the world ... not just the U.S. or Europe or Asia. I also do my best not to assume that anyone knows what has been in use for years in other countries. This is an online encyclopedia available worldwide and terminology must always be explained. I also do searches to see if we already have articles that can be wiki linked to for explaining certain terminology. I find that writing articles is about 75% the actual writing and about 25% formatting, wiki linking and providing the subpages with content. Milton Beychok 16:24, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Bruce has an excellent idea about creating a lemma article. I'd also create a lemma article concerning metric measurement as metric is not the same world round. I discovered this when using Australian, British and Canadian recipes. Fortunately my ineptitude didn't hurt the recipes much. I now have a set of Australian measuring cups and spoons thanks to an Australian friend. I use those when cooking with Australian recipes. The rest of the recipes I do my best. As to the Gas Mark, I did some research and a good chunk of Citizendium readers are from the UK and Europe. Adding the Gas Mark measurement "removed" the Roast Turkey article from "ethnocentric" as Milt rightly pointed out to one that reached out to our UK and European readers.Mary Ash 17:48, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that lemma articles are a good solution. I rather suggest a page on Quantities in recipes(title?) where these data a collected. (Could also be a subpage of Recipe --Peter Schmitt 18:05, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

"Roast turkey" or "roasted turkey"?

That's the question. --Peter Schmitt 11:37, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

It's always "roast" for some reason...Martin Baldwin-Edwards 15:34, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

My vote is for roast turkey (present tense) as the article is about how to prepare roast turkey. Roasted turkey would mean (past tense) the turkey was already cooked and ready-to-eat.Mary Ash 17:40, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

The question is not about tense (the title is not "(to) roast turkey") but how the dish prepared is called. Martin has answered my question. --Peter Schmitt 17:55, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Conversion of pounds to kg

Mary, if you will look at the main article's History, you will see that I converted your "8 to 12 pounds" to read "8 to 12 pounds (3.6 to 5.5 kg)" and explained how to do it. As you will see in that History comment, there are 0.454 kg per pound. You should do the same sort of conversion and re-write for all of the other measurements that you gave in pounds ... again to make the article less ethnocentric. I am too busy to do it for you or I would. Milton Beychok 18:16, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

P.S.: We already have a Kilogram article to which you can also wiki link the kg. Milton Beychok 18:20, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Milt and Degrees

Spelled out degrees as that's how the rest of the article is written. Don't know specific CZ policy so if my spelling out degrees is wrong feel free to change it. Thanks Milt!Mary Ash 18:53, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Changed to "°C" throughout. --Daniel Mietchen 20:42, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Daniel the C degrees do not match the F degrees. So do we spell out degrees as I wrote or do you use the degree symbol? Right now the article has a combination of the two after you edited it.Mary Ash 20:49, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Converted the remaining occurrences of degrees F and C to °F and °C. Did not check whether the conversions are correct, nor anything else in the article. --Daniel Mietchen 04:47, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Should we use Wild Turkey or Domestic Turkey?

I wrote an earlier article at Citizendium concerning the Wild Turkey. Should we use that link to describe the turkey or should there be an article about the domestic turkey. Both are basically the same critter. See: [[1]] or from Cornell University: [2] Comments please.Mary Ash 20:23, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

I started turkey (bird). There is more than one type of turkey, and some other creatures which are turkeys but not turkeys (Meleagris). I'm afraid I didn't think of turkey (fowl), Milt, probably because I don't think of bush turkeys as fowl, indeed, I don't know if they are. We can certainly think of moving it, because in my view, turkey (fowl) is the more elegant name. I also have domestic turkey and I'm afraid that Wild Turkey=bourbon and what's there at present should live at wild turkey for the sake of consistency, even though I personally prefer Mourning Dove! Aleta Curry 04:29, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Aleta, chickens, ducks, geese, turkeys and pheasants are all fowls ... are they not? I wasn't trying to be elegant ... just specific, that's all. I think one of the dictionary definitions says that fowl are birds whose flesh is eaten as food. I don't know about ostriches ... they are birds, but I don't think they are generally eaten as a food. Milton Beychok 06:58, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Milt, they are. Let me try to be more clear. There are animals such as bush turkeys and brush turkeys that are not the same species as the North American turkeys. I mean, I don't even think they're the same genus. I *do* think of fowl as encompassing both the poultry that you name AND wild birds hat are suitable for eating; game birds and waterfowl and the like. However, such things as swans, are, I believe, waterfowl, but not usually eaten, though one can eat them. Some people call pellicans and herons waterfowl; I don't think those are eaten. Same goes for the ostriches you've already mentioned and peafowl, all landfowl, but, as to eating...though actually, come to think of it, I do remember an episode of Two Fat Ladies where one talked about shooting a neighbour's peacock accidentally and then dressing and eating it. She might have said she'd been drinking? Aleta Curry 09:40, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Being non-English I cannot argue about fowl. My dictionary says "any other bird (than domestic fowl), esp. gallinaceous bird, that is used as food or hunted as game". According to that "Turkey (bird)" should treat it from a biological point of view while "Turkey (fowl)" should deal with the culinary aspects.

As for ostrichs: They are eaten (Aleta knows) and even in Austria we have ostrich farms. Swans have been eaten, I am not sure about peacocks. We shall have to check some old cookbooks.

--Peter Schmitt 10:00, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

This article has become a recipe, more or less, which it is not allowed to be

It was decided a long time ago that CZ articles cannot be simple recipes. A recipe belongs on the Recipe tab.

BUT, it was also decided that just not anyone can place his/her favorite recipe there, otherwise we would inundated with hundreds of recipes, say, for Apple pie. There can be a generalized article about, say, Bolognese sauce, and THEN a recipe for it in the proper place. BUT, the recipe has to be referenced to someone notable, such as, in this case Marcella Hazen, or Julia Child, or The New York Times, or James Beard or some such. In other words, we can have a recipe for a Reuben sandwich as it is prepared at the Carnegie Deli, as related in a NYT article of so-and-so date. We cannot, however, have a recipe that is "Hayford's way of preparing it".

The Roast turkey article should have a *lot* of info about different *ways* of roasting turkeys -- this is a matter of great contention. High temp? Low temp? Medium temp? Turn the bird? Cook it on three sides? Carve off the breasts first, then continue to cook the body? Cover it with cheesecloth drenched in butter? Cover it with sliced salt pork? Cook it with stuffing? Without? Drape it with foil? Or not? There are a *million* things to cover in this article, including HOW DIFFICULT IT IS TO CORRECTLY ROAST A TURKEY, that are not even mentioned here. Why it is so difficult to maintain juicy, tender breast meat AND to cook the thighs. All of these matters can, and should be discussed here (as well as Heritage turkeys, but a single recipe, with cooking times, should NOT be given here. Otherwise CZ has become a Hot-to manual. Which it is not supposed to be.

Eventually, I suppose, that the new EC will have to review this matter, and hand down definitive guidelines. In the meantime, you might take a look at http://en.citizendium.org:8080/wiki/CZ:Recipes, where there is some discussion of this. There are also a lot of other pages, including Talk pages, with discussions. Hayford Peirce 22:47, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, Mary does come from a 'how-to' environment, and by her own admission that's what this article is, so let's treat her gently.

This is one more thing the EC should formalise. My understanding is the same as yours, Hayford, that encyclopaedias, at least in their modern incarnation, are not 'how-to' manuals. There was some confusion about this in CZ's early days.

It must be sorted, one way or the other.

Mary, you must agree to live with policy, however it turns out. Keep in mind that there is no reason you cannot continue to provide recipes and insights under the auspices of the Food Science work group. Or wherever this ends up. Oy, things get complicated!

Aleta Curry 04:37, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

For what it is worth, both Peter Schmitt and I agreed that this was a "how to" article (see above "Title request" section) and it has always been my understanding that "how to" articles were to be avoided. Even Wikipedia frowns upon them. Milton Beychok 05:12, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't think anyone's disputing that it's a how-to. Aleta Curry 09:44, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Mary, who was Fannie Merritt Farmer and why is she historic??

Mary, you should not simply throw in a name of someone who wrote a recipe in 1918 (before even I was born ... and that was a looong time ago) and expect me or anyone else to know anything about her. You really should introduce her to us with at least "... well known, American cookbook author" or something to that effect. Milton Beychok 06:46, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, I know about Fannie Farmer. I cook, and my mum was a devotee of The Fannie Farmer Cookbook (there have been several - many? - editions since nineteen hundred and and whoosy whatsit). But I agree, an introduction is needed. Aleta Curry 09:50, 14 October 2010 (UTC) edited to add - since the cookbook is still in print, would we be allowed to reprint a whole receipt? A quote, yes, but...? Aleta Curry 09:56, 14 October 2010 (UTC)