Talk:Intelligent design

Article Checklist for "Intelligent design"

Workgroup category or categories	Biology Workgroup, Philosophy Workgroup, Religion Workgroup [Editors asked to check categories]
Article status	Developed article: complete or nearly so
Underlinked article?	Yes
Basic cleanup done?	Yes
Checklist last edited by	Petréa Mitchell 10:32, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

To learn how to fill out this checklist, please see CZ:The Article Checklist.

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Intelligent design

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Quotation

Where is this quotation from? -- "certain features of the universe and living things are best explained by an intelligent cause". We should not make any quotation without saying where it is from. If we're quoting ourselves, remove the quotation marks. --Larry Sanger 08:38, 17 May 2007 (CDT)

Agreed. Will Nesbitt 08:41, 17 May 2007 (CDT)

Name of this article

It's all right to separate the article into one about the theory and one about the movement. It's not good English to call it a "concept." Concepts do not make assertions; theories, hypotheses, etc., do. "Theory" is unobjectionable if used not in the scientific sense of a claim that has some evidence in its favor but in the philosophical sense of, simply, a general claim up for consideration. --Larry Sanger 08:38, 17 May 2007 (CDT)

I'm attempting to find a way to appease those who so adamantly opposed the possibility that serious scientitists can consider this a "theory". BTW, this is anecdotal and not entirely evidential, but my brother-in-law is a brilliant man: a nuclear physicists and one of the top authorities in the world on neutrinos and other sub-atomic particles. He sees no conflict in religion and Evolution and no conflict between Intelligent Design and science. We enjoyed a fascinating discussion on this topic yesterday because of my tinkering with this article.

At any rate, I'd like to find a way to divorce passion and opinions from this debate. The trap is that editors end up arguing from their belief-set rather than resting secure in the knowledge that nothing we write herein will much change the opinions of anyone who reads these words.

For your part, Larry, other than reverting, you find a productive way to address the real concerns that other editors have expressed about calling this concept a theory? Will Nesbitt 08:49, 17 May 2007 (CDT)

Will, we can begin by your actually responding to the point I made in my last sentence above. --Larry Sanger 20:23, 17 May 2007 (CDT)

I apologize if I sound argumentative. I personally don't have any problem with the word "theory". To be honest, I took this position because I was bending over backwards to appease those who find this idea so repugnant that they take offense to calling it a theory. I was trying to find a way to keep them happy, while at the same time advancing a more unbiased article. My fear was that you had introduced another argument that was going to lead to an edit war and I wanted to cut that short.

Since that time, I have been clued in on your role in Citizendium. Actually, I'm delighted that you've taken this stance. I think this stance is correct, but the reason I'm delighted is because your role allows you to take a slightly more agressive position than I would have pushed for. Thanks for this and thanks for much more. Will Nesbitt 07:18, 18 May 2007 (CDT)

What about Intelligent design argument or Intelligent design explanation? Or Intelligent design idea? Or Intelligent design proposal? Just trying to avoid 'theory'. John Stephenson 02:08, 19 May 2007 (CDT)

• You're all going to love this. How about the title "Intelligent Design" with no further signifier?! Compare this, to choose a random example, Evolution, which is not entitled Evolution, Theory of. By the way, notice also that Evolution is described from the outset as a concept, though the article uses theory as well. Evolution, Lamarkianism, (presumably ID, etc) are often discussed as concepts. Concept gets 25,000 google hits, theory gets 92,000. "Theory" obviously has stronger scientific/verifiability connotations, so it's more highly contested a designation. For NPOV, I'd go with concept or idea or claim when writing the narrative, except when explaining the debate over whether it merits designation as a theory. David Hoffman 12:14, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

biology??

Can anybody give me a reference to Biology as science that originates as source for ID? As far as I know some scientists with a variety of backgrounds are in favor of ID as some pseudo theory as opposed to the more modern evolutionary theory. But biology as science to my knowledge doesn't treat ID as a part of biology. Robert Tito |  Talk  19:58, 17 May 2007 (CDT)

Rob, I guess you are referring to this article's workgroup? I don't know much of anything about intelligent design, to me, the watch/watchmaker analogy doesn't really make sense, I've walked down beaches and found natural things much more complicated than watches, but I don't seem to get that parable in any context -here or Life (blind watchmaker see Life talk page). In any event- I think the question of workgroup has a very practical basis. The workgroup editors can have a say in article approval. Here, it seems to me that both the Religion workgroup and the Biology workgroup should supply at least one editor willing to approve this article. That would also be true, for the article birth control. Intelligent design theory is not biology, but it is an alternative explanation to biology and it holds itself to be part of the "science of life" (as far as I can tell.) For those reasons, a neutral biology editor -who certainly would not be expected to agree with this theory, should be expected to be able to approve this article (when ready) as a fair and neutral encyclopedic entry on that theory. I could be wrong - but it seems to me that this should not just be religion, especially because (from wha I have read) its proponents claim that it is science-but because it is an argument for a diety I think that it should be also approved by religion. The alternative would be biology as the sole workgroup. Anyway, I would worry if it had no required input from biology. Nancy Sculerati 12:58, 19 May 2007 (CDT)

a small question

quoting from article- "process structuralist" Richard Sternberg. What is a "process structuralist"? Nancy Sculerati 12:25, 19 May 2007 (CDT)

Theory?

We have to remove the Biology GRoup category from this article. We cannot have such a poor decision associated wih the bology workgroup. David Tribe 07:14, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

David, I do not agree that Intelligent Design is part of biology, I guess any more than Creationism is, and I can see how silly it would be to have Creationism considered part of Biology - but if the article discusess evolution, and Darwinism- what then? Should not Biology oversee it? Or can that be done best just by individual review and being sure that the article is accurate and neutral? A biologist probably would always know to check out an article that is about a subject famously at odds with biology, but what if the article is about some lesser known thing that - like this article, talks about evolution? Maybe there should be a different mechanism than a category workgroup to alert members of the workgroup-Criticisms of intelligent design . Nancy Sculerati 07:57, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

David, of course discussion of intelligent design--whatever you want to call the content of the claims it makes, theory, "concept," or something else--is germane to biology. We shouldn't remove a workgroup from an article simply because we disagree with how the article is named. In that case, the way forward is to propose a better name, one that biologists (and grammarians--it isn't a "concept" in any case) can agree with. Please do.

In general, what should we call bodies of thought that not everyone wants to bless with the name "theory"? (I personally am willing to call all sorts of absurdities "theories," but scientists have a different usage from mine.) To call it a "hypothesis" implies that it is testable, so that won't do in this case. --Larry Sanger 09:19, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

Larry, actually I don't think this theory/idea is part of biology, although it concerns the origin of living things. For example, phrenology is not neuroscience, and is not health science. It may have been both those things once, but it is not either now. This theory has never been part of biology and is not now. We take biology to mean the science of living things and this theory is not science as accepted by scientists, it is philosophy, and religion -though I guess that the religion category is debatable. Again, and I am no expert in Intelligent Design-but I am an expert in Biology, I have never seen anything written about this intelligent design idea ( including this article) that does not contain an explanation of Darwin's theories and of the theory of evolution- which are, of course, very much part of biology, as a major part of the narrative. That's the only reason I see the Biology workgroup category as legitimate. Intelligent design is not only not a recognized theory in biology, even a disproven one, it relies on a philosophical construct rather than the scientific method and so is not, as I see it, science. That doesn't mean that an article on this topic is not needed. It's just a question of category. "Critical views of intelligent design" could be written entirely as biology and be part of the biology workgroup without question. This article is a kind of "alternative biology". Nancy Sculerati 10:30, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

Nancy, I apologize if I am out of line, because I am not a biologist, so it will be too easy perhaps to dismiss my opinion, but here goes anyway because I'm not providing a biological argument, I'm providing an editorial argument.

I would agree with you that this theory/idea is not science by the definition of some, but I would disagree with you that the idea is in the same category as phrenology. I would disagree because phrenology has generally been proven to be quackery. While the idea of intelligent design was assumed to be outdated, but Intelligent Design has not really been disproven. I also disagree that this theory has never been a part of biology. I would submit that some form of a theory of intelligent design was a foundation of biology up and until the origin of species was widely accepted. (Medieval zoological (i.e. academic) works described animals and "why God made them that way.")

I fear that Intelligent Design's credibility has been tainted by its association with people who have an agenda. They are pushing ID mainly because they really don't understand Evolution's undeniable truth and they think that ID somehow disproves Evolutionary Theory. Thus, I can understand why you as a biologist would dismiss Intelligent Design Theory out of hand. Boiling all the verbiage out of it, you think Intelligent Design equals magic and magic does not exist, therefore Intelligent Design does not exist.

But there is a reason the idea won't go away. That's because in science the simple solution is usually the right solution. Intelligent Design's proponents boil it down like so: the universe appears to have a design, therefore there is a design and there probably is a designer. This logic feels intuitively right to many and it makes sense to the layman.

I may be a rare bird indeed in that I don't see a whit of conflict between Evolution Theory and Intelligent Design Theory. In fact, I evolution as evidence of intelligent design and vice versa. I see design in molecular structure, galactic structure, in subatomic structure. Design seems to be everywhere. I am willing to consider the possibility that we create the design by observation ...

This type of thought is definitely philosophical, but now that we have left the Dark Ages, and we know so much more than the Age of Enlightment, I don't think there needs to be such a rigid wall between science, religion and philosophy. So, I might be wacky, but I don't see any line (in reality) between these fields of human study. I know I am a member of a tiny minority in this regard.

I personally think the conflict arises because the uneducated masses don't really understand how simple and undeniable Evolution is. On the other hand, I think many in the scientific community dismiss Intelligent Design because they think its implications some how undermine or disagree with science. The scientific community thinks Intelligent Design is superstition rather than science. There are few that have taken the time to consider the possibility that these ideas are not in conflict in any way.

I personally would like to see biologists and scientists exposed to this theory, because further study might be warranted. As we both know, Origin of Species and a good many other scientific advances were roundly rejected when first floated. I should like to see fair-minded scientists like yourself examine Intelligent Design to better shake the psuedo-science from the idea. The fact is:e no fair minded person can dismiss the possibility that the universe has a design. If this possibility cannot be dismissed it might be valuable to measure it against other widely known possibilities.

All that was my preamble. Here's my point and my argument.

You're falling into the trap of arguing the merits of the theory. It's not your job or my job to measure the theory on its merits. It's our job to journal the debate and theory so that others can do their own research and come to their own conclusions. The reason I'm psyched about Citizendium is because I think the neutrality policy is so much stronger and more clear than the NPOV at Wikipedia. Here's the appropriate quote I think for this topic:

Objection: how are we to write articles about pseudoscientific topics, about which majority scientific opinion is that the pseudoscientific opinion is not credible and doesn't even really deserve serious mention?

If we're going to represent the sum total of "human knowledge"--of what we believe we know, essentially--then we must concede that we will be describing views repugnant to us without asserting that they are false. Things are not, however, as bad as that sounds. The task before us is not to describe disputes fairly, on some bogus view of fairness that would have us describe pseudoscience as if were on a par with science; rather, the task is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view, and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly.

Therefore, IMHO it's in bounds to describe this idea/theory as not generally accepted by the mainstream scientific community. It's out of bounds to describe the idea as false and not scientific. All that said, I think much of what I've seen written from the ID camp is both false and not scientific. But I think that's precisely because the laymen and not the scientists are the ones most passionate about this theory. I think a good many of them would be a good less passionate if they realized that acceptance of ID does not infer a rejection of evolution or biology as we know it today. Will Nesbitt 11:12, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

• First, from my standpoint, it's fine to keep ID in both biology and religion, even philosophy. As a minimum, this might force the biology folks to work on this article. (Granted, it's my view that the categories should be used as tags and that numerous articles are multidisciplinary.)
• Second, this article has a serious problem with its pro-ID point-of-view. If we can't put a template banner that notifies the reader that the neutrality is still be worked out, then this article would make Citizendium look quite odd. (Cp. problems w/Scientology and Global Warming.) This isn't Will's fault but it merits attention.David Hoffman 12:25, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

Concept was OK. Hypothesis barely acceptable. Theory unacceptable, postulate, maybe ok, conjecture also maybe ok. David Tribe 06:36, 21 May 2007 (CDT)

Distinguishing ID theory from ID ignorance based myths

Its not a trap for us to reject material because it lacks merit as a scientific concept, its our job as scientists and Citizendium Biology editors to eliminate presentation of concepts that are without merits. We do this, and should do this, with every statement to ensure that the content of the atricles is an acceptable quality. Similarly, with scientific concepts that have been refuted, such as for instance, simple views of Last Common Ancestor, of parts of Lyn Margulis' theories that are poorly supported, or the HIV does not cause AIDS, we do not present them as acceptable, as it would be misleading the reader. Its not an philosophical stance, but an ethical position. We must not as professional scientists knowingly mislead the reader about the science of biology or suppress inconvenient facts.

In the ID article I have introduced grammatical challenges by highlighting the view that the statement that natural selection is undirected and random and implication that it is unable to create functional design is a misrepresentation. Inclusion or this misrepresentation of the basic logical structure of cellular evolution is not acceptable. Its leaving a fallacy unchallenged.

(This would ignore the fact that organ and cellular component (eg enzyme, gene regulator, surface sensor)functionality is a contributer to survival, and that selection for reproductive sucess is intrinsically related to the "apparent design" of all the components. My expression of this concept may be poor, but it will be unethical for me not to pursue it. Leaving the implied ID argument that selection does not possess this feature would be ethically wrong too, in the same way that accepting it as a theory.

As far as the intent to force biology folks to deal with the article, and similar efforts to plea for attention, could the proponents accept if they do so, realise that any with poorly grounded statements will be challenged, and not expect that we should lower scientific standards just because its a popular issue with non-professional biologists.David Tribe 16:12, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

David, I would encourage these edits and I agree that we should remove and edit conclusions based on ignorance. However, I do think that the direct criticism of Intelligent Design Theory should be apart from the presentation of the theory. (I hope to imply nothing by chosing this word, but I want to avoid a compound nomeclature like "theory/idea/hypothesis".) If we buried the idea or attempt to blow it out of the water before it is stated, then we will not only be unfair, but we will encourage endless circular arguments.

I think a major problem with ID is that the ID movement has framed the theory in such a way as to represent their narrow view. I think many of these particular proponents of ID are wholly ignorant of biology and I further think they have no desire to learn anything about biology or any other science which might contradict their beliefs. Please be aware that because the ID Movement's conceptionualization of ID is the most readily accessed version of the theory on the web, many assume that this conceptualization is wholly representative of the idea. It is not.

Perhaps in it's simplist form, Intelligent Design Theory is nothing more than a philosophical argument posing as science. I'll grant that. Here's that argument as I understand it: order implies organization; organization implies an organizer. There is a certain organization to the universe and thus some conclude that the universe has an organizer. As a layman, I'd like to make sure that simple idea remains clear and apart from ignorant verbose explanations of how it's impossible to evolve an eyeball, but also apart from criticism which explains why those conceptualizations are based in ignorance.

I'm mainly arguing to keep to the nuetrality policy in force. I encourage the scientists to keep the ID loonies at bay. I hope the scientists give the idea enough space to be understood by those who might wonder what ID means/is. Will Nesbitt 16:39, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

I am not going to try to engage this debate, I just want to clarify what I said above. I didn't mean to say that intelligent design is a biological theory. I merely said that it was germane to biology. And the way in which it is germane to biology is that biologists very much love to debunk it, if they care about the topic at all. Since biologists are the experts at this debunking, they ought to take responsibility for the parts of the article that concern the debunking. Is that fair enough? --Larry Sanger 16:27, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

Another option, by the way, would involve us creating a new workgroup, such as (I'm just throwing out a name to give you an idea) "non-mainstream science" or "fringe science." --Larry Sanger 16:35, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

This is not science, it is not presented as a scientific argument. It is presented as a philosophical construct. From what I can tell- it says that the universe appears (to people) to have been designed, therefore there is a designer. I have tried to dfind out more about it, but there is nothing I can find in the Ehrman MedicaL Library at NYU. I'm not saying there shouldn't be this article. Will, just because something is not science doesn't mean it's false, this may be true- for all I know, but this is not science- and there is plentry of non-mainstream science and fringe science that actually is science. The last thing we need is to imply that unpopular or novel theories in science are not science. This is not science it is a philosophical way of thinking.Nancy Sculerati 16:51, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

I don't think we can have a Biology Workgroup tag here because it implies it is biology, i.e. science. I'd like to see a new workgroup covering pseudoscience, conspiracy theories, the supernatural, etc. I suggest [[Category:Pseudoscience and Hoaxes]]. John Stephenson 20:36, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

Definitely not. Workgroups are not categories in the sense of WP. Workgroups merely tell who, what group of authors/editors, are mainly editing the article, not what the article's subject belongs to. And never use the word "hoax" until it's proven false. Not all supernatural phenomena are proven false. If a special workgroup is going to be established, I'd suggest the name "Supernatural Phenomena Workgroup" or "Unexplained Phenomena Workgroup" to sound more neural. Yi Zhe Wu 20:44, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

that means you leave it to individual scientists to adopt this article - aka: no workgroup. Thank you for acknowledging. Robert Tito |  Talk  21:01, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

I don't know if you are sarcastic, I never said that, nor if I implied so. Yi Zhe Wu 21:02, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

If you would like to take it to the realm of serious science, please provide us with some fundament. If you can't - alas rest your case. So far I hear a lot of fuzz but I have not seen ONE basic scientific argument. If you cannot provide any scientifically supported fundament to this theory this should be dealt with as pseudo or metascience. Robert Tito |  Talk  21:17, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

Well, I said supernatural phenomena can have a "Supernatural Phenomena Workgroup" if it cannot be supported by current science. And although ID may not be a valid science, science editors can take care of the article, that's the essence of being in a "biology" workgroup, meaning that biology workgroup people can work on it. Yi Zhe Wu 21:33, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

in that we agree. Individuals can support it, edit it. Yet not the workgroup as so far I see no connection to the workgroup as you failed to provide the needed evidence. Robert Tito |  Talk  21:45, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

John how about [[Category:Metasciences]] it is less discriminating. Robert Tito |  Talk  20:44, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

I'm glad to see theory has now been removed from the title. However I'd point out that biology is under the natural sciences, and if we are to retain credibility, the retention of the workgroup label Biology has to come with the standards of the natural sciences being applied to the article. Thus the weakness and standing concept in the natural sciences have to be clear to the casual reader. It may be easier to create a satisfactory article if it is moved out of the natural sciences. It's certainly going to be detrimental to our natural sciences credibility, and drain the efforts of the biology edits if is is kept in the biology workgroup.David Tribe 06:11, 21 May 2007 (CDT)

Capitalization

Is there any good reason to capitalize "Intelligent Design" throughout the article? Generally that goes against normal style in writing about fields of study, philosophies, and artistic genres, unless they are named after a person. We don't capitalize evolution, geology, cubism, or nihilism; we do capitalize Lamarckism, Darwinism, and Marxism. I don't see why intelligent design would be different, unless we are classifying it as a religion (and I'm guessing we're not), like Islam, Christianity, or Buddhism. --Eric Winesett 16:11, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

I agree, Eric. --Larry Sanger 16:28, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

this article is called ID theory

so far I have not seen any sane and solid scientific theory that enveloped ID as being a scientific theory other than the notion it is more related to creation theories than any other theories. As such it should not belong to any natural science topics, unless one solid theoretical model - so far nowhere ever presented - is capable to explain the role of ID within the realm of natural sciences. Until that time it is merely hypothetical, for some theoretical and again others philosophical but not scientific until such fundament is delivered. Robert Tito |  Talk  16:36, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

Please suggest another (neutral) name besides "theory" to describe the sort of thing it is. It is not a "concept," because concepts do not make claims, and ID makes claims. --Larry Sanger 16:38, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

so far hypothesis would even be too benificiary - the lack of any solid fundament removes even the notion of hypothesis as fot the latter you need solid based arguments - and preferably arguments not based upon other thoughts or ideas but based upon scientific known facts. Robert Tito |  Talk  16:48, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

what's the reason for not calling it "intelligent design" as a name?Nancy Sculerati 17:09, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

Rob, you didn't answer the question.

Nancy, good question. Presumably, because now that there is an "intelligent design movement" article, "intelligent design" seemed ambiguous and the natural place for a disambiguation page. But I agree that it probably better serves as an article page, and then we can simply link to "intelligent design movement" from the top of the article. --Larry Sanger 21:26, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

Larry, since it is not my article I leave the name to the authors/editors. I do have my questions as to what groups this article should ressort to. I merely stated my concern to see a serious science being taken away by something else. As far as I am concerned it can be called whatever the authors deem right - just do not bring in any workgroup in an unjustified way. Robert Tito |  Talk  21:30, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

I see you point now Rob, this article can't be forced on biology-for one thing, nobody that is an editor in biology knows anything much about it.Nancy Sculerati

I justified the inclusion of the Biology Workgroup above. As I said, the way in which it is germane to biology is that biologists very much love to debunk it, if they care about the topic at all. (And that's something that's not hard to find in any medical library, I'm sure.) Since biologists are the experts at this debunking, they ought to take responsibility for the parts of the article that concern the debunking. Is that fair enough? --Larry Sanger 21:51, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

Larry Since you are no biologist you are excluded to decide that other than based upon EIC status. It would be a good initiative to leave it to the biology workgroup and not by someone acting as deus ex machina. For that I made my plea as the topic has nothing in common with biology as science but more with philosophy as a nice wine covered dinner talk. Robert Tito |  Talk  22:03, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

Rob, I can't agree with excluding a philosophy scholar from the discussion. Ultimately this is about a philosophy that has foundations in theology while referring to biological premises--it is very convoluted. A philospher's input would be invaluable. --Thomas Simmons 21:09, 21 May 2007 (CDT)

Suppression

A large portion of American people simply do not believe in the evolution, including myself (I'm not a creationist, and I don't wholly accept ID theory either, but I doubt that evolution is true). ID is an alternative theory to evolution, and the article should tell how the U.S. government and scientific community have effectively suppressed the propagation of ID, in classrooms and in the public. Yi Zhe Wu 16:41, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

many others will state propoganists of ID prevented or repressed evolution theories to be presented in the curriculum amd being taught to pupils/students. Robert Tito |  Talk  16:58, 20 May 2007 (CDT).

That was a long time ago before Scopes Trial, and now the whole thing turned around already...Yi Zhe Wu 17:02, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

This should be addressed at Intelligent Design Movement IMHO. Will Nesbitt 16:47, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

Editors

Is there any pro-ID editors in CZ? I think if there are they would offer contribution from another perspective and help the neutrality of ID-related articles. Regards. Yi Zhe Wu 16:55, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

That might be me, Yi Zhe, but I'm not an ID expert. If being pro-ID means being anti-Evolution, then I'm not pro-ID. If being pro-ID means that you do not reject the idea that the universe appears incredibly organized and too impossibly well-designed to be entirely a product of chance, then I am pro-ID. However, I'm not a scientist and I'm definitely not a part of the ID movement so I think I'm better qualified to nag and complain than to actually edit and write. Will Nesbitt 17:03, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

Ohh, I understand. I guess there are not many people that completely accept the ID theory (it looks fancy, I don't even know who formulated that theory). But I can say there are many "evolution skeptics" around. A long time ago I heard there is a saying like "every system with paradox is either incomplete or inconsistent", and seemingly there are a great amount of paradox existing in both evolution and the ID in current form. Yi Zhe Wu 17:12, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

where the paradox is in the incomprehensible nature of ID, contrary to the theories that handle evolution? Maybe that is the result of the lack of a solid basis for ID - if any can be found other than in metaphysical spheres. Robert Tito |  Talk  17:25, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

The purpose of this page, and professionalism

Just to be clear: the purpose of this talk page is not to discuss the merits of whatever claims intelligent design makes, but the article and related matters, such the management of the article. By focusing on the article, we can avoid needless controversy.

Furthermore, while most of the debate here has been civil, it has been straining the limits. You might want to review Professionalism if you have not done so recently. --Larry Sanger 22:32, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

Move to "Intelligent design"

Glad to see the move to the new title, with the link to the Movement article. Minor glitch -- it looks like some of the editing history did not get carried over. There's no edit history for 5/18-20. (Presumably I wasn't the only one to make an edit during that period.) Can a techie fix the history please? Thanks. David Hoffman 23:15, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

That's because simply moving the page would have deleted the old edit histories for Intelligent design and Talk:Intelligent design. To find the whole edit history you'll have to look at both Intelligent design theory and Intelligent design and their talk pages. --Larry Sanger 23:19, 20 May 2007 (CDT)

Ok. To find it, readers can go to Intelligent design theory and then click the redirect link. David Hoffman 07:00, 21 May 2007 (CDT)

Evolution of this article

Forgive me for complaining instead of editing, but I think the introductory paragraph is actually getting worse. One thing I would like to see Citizendium avoid is the Wikipedian tendency to try to cram everything into as few sentences as possible, especially in the lead. Periods are not rare commodities. I want to edit the second and third sentences for clarity, but they've become so garbled and overly complex that I can no longer decipher what I want to simplify.

Also, I'd almost rather misuse the term "theory" than call ID "the usual designation for a claim...". (I still like "Intelligent Design (ID) is the contention that certain features of the universe and living things are best explained by an intelligent cause," which is the wording on the ID movement page.) Maybe we need a brief mention of the fact that ID is called a theory by its proponents but not by its detractors even in the first paragraph. --Eric Winesett 01:33, 21 May 2007 (CDT)

It this case the problem is caused by including problematic claims about Darwinism in the first paragraph. We cannot let ID proponents misunderstanding of science go uncorrected. Where they constitute scientifically misleading representation of the logic of evolutionary theory and facts of natural sciences, they will need to be corrected. What is necessary is a clear indication of the challenges which this concept raises right up front. Unless we do this, the article will be fundamentally misleading about biological science.Fix the science, and then we can settle the style David Tribe 06:30, 21 May 2007 (CDT)

A good thing

I think I've put forth a good way to address the most important concerns of the scientific community by (at last) revealing the real argument for what it is. By revealing what the real argument is, we don't have to waste time in passionate circular arguments about the nature of God or the universe. Hopefully, I won't be pilloried. Lastly, now that I've found the argument, I think we can pare back some of the extraneous criticism. There is no need to repeat everything found in various sciences on this page. Let me know what you think! Will Nesbitt 07:17, 21 May 2007 (CDT)

Will, I appreciate your good faith efforts with this article. Now that some other folks are (may be) interested in editing it, it might be helpful if you stand back for a bit and see how the article evolves, or gets re-designed. It would be good to let the pendulum swing to where the majority of folks are comfortable with the piece, and then suggest refinements. Otherwise, I suspect people would be more inclined to delete than edit it boldly and sufficiently. For what it's worth, my two cents. David Hoffman 08:56, 21 May 2007 (CDT)

Agreed. Sorry for the multiple edits. I don't use "show preview enough" and I just wanted to edit myself to the point that I wouldn't be embarrassed by what I wrote. I don't have any ego invested in my suggestions, so feel free to kill or revert.

I just had what I seemed like a daylight moment when I made the connection between my arguments with "9/11 Hoax" believers and the arguments I've seen scientists have with ID believers. I still believe in ID, but I don't identify with the loon-birds who selectively reject science that does not support ID. Once you identify ID as staking out the "unknowable" it becomes much for scientists. If this is done in such away as to not reject the idea out-of-hand, then I think this should appease fair-minded folks who think ID has merit. Will Nesbitt 09:07, 21 May 2007 (CDT)

Opening paragraph

The opening sentence says that Intelligent design means something explained by an "intelligent cause" -- if the reader doesn't know what "intelligent" means, this becomes meaningless. Can't you replace the second "intelligent" with something else? The next sentence says that it refers to "things" -- that's a pretty vague, non-precise term. Then it says that certain disciplines are not "fully understood" - well, they may not be 100% understood, but they're not 30 or 40% understood, either. This phrasing seems to imply that they're only vaguely understood and that therefore ID is a reasonable argument. Hayford Peirce 11:57, 21 May 2007 (CDT)

The Design Argument and "Intelligent Design" as a modern phenomenon

The article makes it sound as if what proponents call "Intelligent Design Theory" is little more than the (very old) Argument from Design, also called the Teleological Argument for the existence of God. But, of course, that isn't what scientists are objecting to. So it will not do simply to repeat that old argument and say that it is what proponents mean, today, by what they call "Intelligent Design Theory." This is not at all what I see on, for example, this page, which I take to be a not entirely atypical presentation of Intelligent Design. In short, if we want to present ID as it is understood by its proponents, then we have to do a lot more than simply repeat an old philosophical argument. --Larry Sanger 23:30, 21 May 2007 (CDT)

I'm not sure i see what you're seeing at that page Larry, isn't "irreducibly complex" the same argument? What I do agree with is that this argument has taken many forms and recently has become more sophisitcated due to the increased knowledge of biological systems. These new forms of the argument should be discussed. Chris Day (talk) 23:43, 21 May 2007 (CDT)

My point is that ID theorists dress up ID in the language of science. You might make the point (and you might be right) that it is no more than the design argument in new clothing, but it is simply misleading to say that ID is no more than the old design argument, period. You can't understand ID itself if you don't understand that ID proponents dress it up in the language of science. A neutral presentation of the body of thought--and bear in mind, you all have the responsibility to represent ID fairly here, and "fairly" does not mean "as mainstream scientists see it" of course--requires that we present it in the same terms that its proponents present it. We can then proceed to present common or prominent refutations of such a presentation.

I'd like to remind everyone here (I'm not directing this at Chris) that neutrality means "writing for the enemy." I think that ID is a load of nonsense, but I can write sympathetically about it. That's part of being fair-minded: you are willing to consider other views to the extent that you can repeat them in about the same terms that they are presented by their proponents. --Larry Sanger 23:55, 21 May 2007 (CDT)

Don't worry I have thick skin. I see your point with respect to being presented as scientific method. The presentation has changed but the argument is the same but at the level of molecules instead of organs. One issue here is one of original research (from us). Was this argument presented by the defense in the Dover trial? (not expecting an answer from you Larry but we need to find a good source for this observation) . Chris Day (talk) 00:00, 22 May 2007 (CDT)

Criticism section

I really have problems with much of this section I'm afraid, at least the opening paragraphs. These seem to me not to be criticisms of the theoretical basis of ID at all but a series of attacks on the intelligence, knowledge and motives of its proponents. This seems to me to be wholly out of place. If this were the best that science could do to rebut ID then we'd be lost. To attack the theoretical basis of ID you have to find the logical flaws in the specified complexity argument, and make a case that things that seem to be irreducibly complex may not in fact be so. These two are the core elements of ID... Attack the message not the messenger.

I don't know exactly where the idea came that philosophy is not a part of science. Most relevantly here, logic is surely indispensible. The point is that ID, in seeking to explain the natural world can only be rebutted a) by its own internal inconsistencies, if any, and b) by the demonstration that there is already a better explanation than it can offer. The latter belongs to biologists, so if biologists are not willing to enter the argument and make their case, then they perhaps should not complain too much if ID holds the ring.

I guess I can take this lightly as ID has no presence in the UK as far as I am aware. But then this is a country where atheists are now the majority and church-going is a small minority activity. I gather that in the USA, most do go to church and the overwhelming majority believe in a God. Thus, the idea that some evidence of the existence of God can be found in the nature of living things perhaps falls on more receptive ears in the USA.

So where do you start if you really want to criticise people for believing in ID? Do you attack the politicians and schools in the US for promoting belief in a God? The scientists for not speaking out against the believers amongst them? Forget about why people believe in ID please, and forget about exactly who believes in ID, it's no more reasonable to do this than to attack people for believing in a God. Just address the logical case; that is not just fair and neutral, but indeed essential. Gareth Leng 03:15, 22 May 2007 (CDT)

 Gareth Leng 02:48, 22 May 2007 (CDT)

Gareth, I suggest that you edit those portions of the text that attack the proponents rather than the idea by moving that portion of the argument to criticism of the intelligent design movement. Will Nesbitt 07:22, 22 May 2007 (CDT)

Comments

I am stopping in here after having been away a while, and I have NOT read Gareth's comments just above that he just posted.

• Tone. With all due respect to the hard-working contributors here, what comes to mind as I read much of this article--as far as I could get through it, that is--when coupled with a few of the statements here on the talk page that have frankly surprised me, is a WP article about a "Christian cult" that "mainstream Christians" are writing, who are making absolutely sure to get their slant in from the very get-go, to be hammered on some more as it goes on.
• Either remove the article from the Biology Workgroup or rename it to something like "Mainstream scientific criticisms of ID"--I think the most accurate suggested title related to the actual content and Workgroup assignment I have seen to date.
• This article is the perfect example of why CZ may need some sort of Interdisciplinary Workgroup. The unavoidable effect of forcing ID into one primary Workgroup means a neutral article will probably never come of it. Because, like say with the topic "globalization", ID simply does not "fit" into "one best category", and any effort to make it do so will only effect slants that tabulate to bias. If I had to say one primary Workgroup should get it, history religion would.
• More at http://forum.citizendium.org/index.php/topic,945.msg7308.html#msg7308

Stephen Ewen 03:41, 22 May 2007 (CDT)

I made a few minor edits and moved a criticism to the criticism section. The criticism section needs an edit badly. It's a jumbled collection of refutations with no narrative or editorial framework. Will Nesbitt 07:35, 22 May 2007 (CDT)

Irreducibility

Obviously I agree. I've moved a section to ID movement, and tried to do some rationalisation.

There are some "arguments" that I feel I must just cut. It is hardly fair to say that it's not clear what ID theory means; it seems to me very clear what it means, it means quite simply that the complexity of living things is too great to be plausibly accounted for by the proposed processes of natural selection, or indeed by any chance driven mechanisms. The tenet of irreducible complexity argues that some features of living things could not have arisen by a gradual mechanism becaause the intermediate/precursor forms would have no adaptive value. The tenet of specified complexity is a reworking of an argument used by Hoyle and others to postulate an extraterrestrial origin of life by calculating the extreme improbability of particular features, such as the minimal components of the simplest living thing. The arguments have arisen often and in various contexts.

I also feel that I must cut adjectives such as "so called" which serve to disparage without elucidating.Gareth Leng 09:15, 22 May 2007 (CDT)

Gareth, this is not my understanding of ID, but I'm quite sure you know more about the topic than I. Is this your opinion about irreducibility and what it means and how it relates to ID or is this a fact that you can reference? I'm not questioning the validity of the theory, but I would like to know what respected expert in the field can said this. Will Nesbitt 09:37, 22 May 2007 (CDT)

Well I certainly question the validity of the theory but see no reason not to present it clearly and honestly (I'm sure we're together on this). Irreducible complexity is Behe's contibution, and specified complexity is Demski's. Specified complexity is a rather detailed probabilistic argument; the claimed flaw, put crudely, is the "golf" paradox. Hit a golf ball, it lands. See exactly where it lands, to the millimetre, the logo facing North east, beside a particular daisy. Calculate the chance that it would land exactly there, given all the other places and positions it might have landed. The odds against are phenomenal - so the irresistable conclusion is ... you must have aimed.

In fact you can't use probabilistic arguments at all in this way.

As for references - there was an excellent link to a series of articles by Behe etc with rebuttals - but it seems lost... Found it and reinserted it. See Behe's piece.[1]

Gareth Leng 09:50, 22 May 2007 (CDT)

Is the "irreducibility complex" another claim/theory or is that theory a component of ID, or is it another thought altogether? Either way, does it belong in a separate article? Will Nesbitt 12:05, 22 May 2007 (CDT)

Particular peces I have a problem with:

"Opponents of the theory also find it easier to believe that the 'design' found in the inanimate structure of the universe is not design at all, and instead find it easier to believe that the physical laws of the universe are unchanging and immutable."

Don't see the logical structure here at all I'm afraid, and the second haldf just seems to me to be wrong. Modern physicists happily talk about the possibility that universal constants might have different values, and of the possibility that the values have varied during the history of the universe.

"The so-called irreducibility complex has generally not been supported by evidence in nature."

?? This statement seems just wrong in several ways. Complex here should be an adjective not a noun, and in fact this is the part of ID that is based on evidence in nature; it is the interpretation of the evidence that is disputed. There is plenty of evidence for irreducible complexity, just, arguably, none that can be shown to be incapable of being explained differently.Gareth Leng 09:25, 22 May 2007 (CDT)

Anyway, I cut this paragraph, as the solid argument against the flagellum example is given later. I have also expanded on the flagellum argument in the account of ID as it looks rather odd to attack something when the case has not previously been made.

It might be appropriate to have an image of a flagellum so we know what we're talking about here?Gareth Leng 09:42, 22 May 2007 (CDT)

Mountain ranges...

??? Haven't seen ID proposed as an explanation for mountain ranges etc - all I've seen is ID as an explanation for purely biological things?? This may be a creationist view but its not ID.Gareth Leng 10:08, 22 May 2007 (CDT)

Please change it back. It certainly is not correct to say that geology etc are "things in the natural world", and I was only trying to make the sentence make sense. I have never heard a single explanation of intelligent design that I have ever been able to follow and do not understand it, so I really have no business writing here. My mistake. Nancy Sculerati 10:15, 22 May 2007 (CDT)

I also don't know, Nancy. Obviously, we have to get some people actually familiar with ID here. There is a version of the design argument that concerns physics--in particular, how is it that the universe has exactly the physical constants needed for life to exist? It's more likely that God fine-tuned things than that the constants just happened to be correct. (The other explanation is that there are infinite universes with infinite numbers of different constants--some might have life, some not.) But I don't know if ID proponents consider this part of their argument for ID or not. --Larry Sanger 10:22, 22 May 2007 (CDT)

I am another non-expert on the subject of ID. However, it is my understanding that intelligent design seeks to establish an intelligent designer. This is not limited to biology (i.e. irreducibility complex) but also to physics and other "evidence" of design in the universe. I would appear that these arguements are being refuted, but I don't know who is making the argument to begin with. Will Nesbitt 12:16, 22 May 2007 (CDT)