Talk:Historical examples of military swarming

Problems with this statement

"The term derives from the attacks of hive insects such as bees, wasps, and ants."

1. Honey bees and wasps do not attack (don't know but that ants do because some species are highly predatory). But bees and wasps are merely acting defensively to protect their nests.

2. Swarming with honey bees has nothing to do with warfare whatsoever. It is a reproductive act, and a honey bee swarm is exceedingly gentle.

3. Wasps and ants do not swarm in any sense similar to honey bees.

I'm not sure how to fix the statement. Perhaps it would be sufficient to say that it mistakenly derives, based on a misunderstanding of hymenopteran behavior. David L Green 23:13, 3 May 2008 (CDT)

I don't mean for this to go off into a discussion of hymenopteran behavior, but isn't there a distinction between motivation and behavior? While wasps may not be "attacking" other than to defend their nest, would an intruder, who accidentally blunders into a nest and is stung repeatedly, find any practical difference, in his experience, if the motivation is defensive or offensive? Would not the continuing stings be perceived as an attack?

In human warfare, there have been a great many deadly exchanges between units, belonging to different sides, blundering into one anothers' areas. For that matter, "friendly fire" (which isn't) fatalities come when units cross boundaries and the commander decides they are threatened.

I didn't intend to say that military swarming is identical to the behavior of stinging social insects, but I think it is fair to say the term "derives" from behavior. If someone shoots me with their rifle, and their buddies add their fire, my experience doesn't depend on whether or not they thought they were shooting in self-defense. I'm still shot. If more combatants are drawn into a combat either because they scent or hear hard-wired threat triggers, or because they hear gunfire and see flashes, is there a practical difference in the melee? Howard C. Berkowitz 02:09, 4 May 2008 (CDT)

I see your point; not sure you see mine. The simile perpetuates a false stereotype of bees and wasps as viscious, aggressive creatures, which they are not (some species of ants may be - I don't know as much about them). Paranoia about bees and wasps is a significant factor in the environmental issue of pollinator decline. And wasps are incredibly important as biological control agents. Few people understand that human life on the planet is threatened by our own attitude about such species, whose roles are not understood. The average person thinks that the only good wasp or bee is a dead one.

And swarming is still a reproductive term anyway; having nothing to do with stinging. While the article is not about hymenopterans, this IS an encyclopedia, and it is important that it be accurate. David L Green 07:59, 4 May 2008 (CDT)