Talk:Pilgrimage

Article Checklist for "Pilgrimage"

Workgroup category or categories	Religion Workgroup, History Workgroup, Literature Workgroup [Editors asked to check categories]
Article status	Developing article: beyond a stub, but incomplete
Underlinked article?	Yes
Basic cleanup done?	Yes
Checklist last edited by	Russell Potter 10:02, 8 June 2007 (CDT)

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Pilgrimage article

Having just finished teaching a couple semesters of a writing course that focused on the subject of pilgrimage, I'd like to rough out a CZ article that pulls together some of the main themes. I'll develop this later this week, but I see it as an article on the practice—both religious and secular—of travel on a personal or spiritual search. I intend to sketch out an overview of religious pilgrimage practice, secular and cultural pilgrimages, and delve into some of the scholarship (religious, psychological) that helps explain an ancient practice that shows no sign of going away in the modern world. I'll also touch on literary manifestations of the practice (Chaucer, Bunyan, etc.), and the metaphor of pilgrimage in the modern world.

--Robert Rubin 02:18, 1 May 2007 (CDT)

Other premodern traditions

Help needed! This section is particularly weak, and is only generalized from some reading I've done. If anyone has some actual expertise to add about Mesoamerican and Native American rituals, it would be most welcome. I'm particularly interested in ways in which rituals such as the dream quest, including those involving hallucinogenic experiences, where the initiate seeks revelation during a period of separation from the tribe, can be tied to Western traditions of spiritual travel. --Robert Rubin 13:12, 1 July 2007 (CDT)

I can add some content about the Tula/Tolan and Chicomoztoc origin myths from Mesoamerica and the pilgrimages that re-enact those stories. It's going to be a little while before I'll be able to get to it though. --Joe Quick (Talk) 23:04, 4 July 2007 (CDT)

Great entry

Hi Robert,

A great entry here -- and much needed.

One aspect of pilgrimage not often covered is the belief, beginning with the Lollards in the 1380's, that pilgrimage was ineffectual and a waste of resources (the Lollards thought much the same about the sacraments, the Eucharist, and priestly orders). Some early protestants may indeed have regarded Chaucer's Canterbury Tales as evidence of the irreligious attitudes of pilgrims (on top of the other shortcomings of sundry Church officers along for the ride).

In 1370, oddly enough, one "John Baron" of Agmundesham was arrested on suspicion of heresy; among the heretical books he confessed to owning was a copy of the Canterbury Tales! He, like his fellow heretics arrested at the same time (apparently part of a cell or "conventicle") all confessed to holding that pilgrimage was "of no worth."

I'm not sure under what heading to place this, but would be happy to craft an account of the above for use in the entry.

Russell Potter 10:02, 7 May 2007 (CDT)

That sounds great. I was going to deal with Chaucer, etc., under the Literary heading. It could go there, for now.

--Robert Rubin 15:11, 7 May 2007 (CDT)

Literary and Historical

Russell, I think you got your Cromwells mixed up. Aside from that, it's a strong addition. Thanks! I have other material I plan to add to this subheading, as well.

As an aside, my wife and I walked the route called the Pilgrims Way (not the one taken by Chaucer's pilgrims) from Winchester to Canterbury a few years ago. At the gate to the Cathedral close was--you guessed it--a Starbucks, where we got out of our muddy walking clothes and changed to enter the close and attend Evensong.

--Robert Rubin 18:15, 7 May 2007 (CDT)

Thanks for correcting my Cromwells (must have been getting sleepy as I wrote that (I think Thomas was Oliver's great great uncle or some such). And your mention of the Pilgrim's Way reminded me that the name really means the route from the old capital at Winchester, not London (you must have taken a section of that), whereas Chaucer's folk would have taken the Old Kent Road (a.k.a. Watling Street) at least most of the way on their outward journey. I've tweaked a bit to correct this -- will leave what's there in your capable hands! Russell Potter 18:40, 7 May 2007 (CDT)

Another minor quibble. From my readings about Becket, he seems to have been a middle class English fellow, who rose through the bureaucracy by his talent, not through Norman family connections. His name was simply Thomas Becket. After he was sainted, apparently, it was Frenchified to add a little class. I think Wikipedia has it right. --Robert Rubin 19:25, 10 June 2007 (CDT)

Hi Robert (sorry for calling you Rick in an earlier post; as a hip-hop fan I tend to think Rick in front of Rubin ;-)

But in any case -- yes, Thomas was an ordinary professional-class English bloke of his day, which is to say, in rising up the ladder, he had to do as the Normans did. As such, I think his surname, though perhaps a bit of an attempt to "pass" as Norman, was a tactical choice, one that it's fine to use -- I grew up with Speght's Chaucer and my Dad's 1940 Britannica, where "à Becket" was always used. To my mind, anything we can do that Wikipedia doesn't -- even and especially if it's a bit odd -- is in our favo(u)r! But you're the author of this entry, you should use the form that sounds best to your ear (have a look at the history of Crystal Palace to see how far a copyediting quarrel can go!) Cheers, Russell Potter 19:44, 10 June 2007 (CDT)

No philosophical argument here. Just wanted to be consistent within the entry, as I'd referred to him as Becket in the intro. FWIW, today's Britannica also drops the à, though many of the Oxford reference books don't.

Pilgrimage as a modern metaphor

Hi Robert, just an afterthought -- not sure where this should go -- but Dorothy Richardson's sequence of novel/memoirs Pilgrimage may deserve mention here. Russell Potter 22:35, 7 May 2007 (CDT)

You talkin' to me? <grin> I don't know those books, Russell. My idea is to talk about pilgrimage here not as a literary metaphor (that should go in the section where we added the Chaucer material) but rather as a cultural metaphor. For instance, the person who ironically says, "I went on the pilgrimage to Disney World," or "Graceland." I want to talk about how, in an ostensibly secular society, the pattern continues as strongly as ever. I certainly wouldn't object to having you mention Richardson in the literary section.

Eventually, this entry might find its home under the umbrella of Religion, rather than Literature, though obviously there will be a lot of links there. But I think it should be broader than just a discussion of pilgrimage as a literary reference. --Robert Rubin 11:35, 8 May 2007 (CDT)

Gotcha. Richardson might be worth a line, though -- she conceived of her life (and her novel, which trailed her living it by about a dozen years) as a pilgrimage; the metaphor has 'feet' -- the subsection just suggested her to me. Russell Potter 12:59, 8 May 2007 (CDT)

Image

Hi Robert,

I thought an image might really help set the tone of this entry at the start -- the one I've uploaded is just a suggested one! Let me know what you think. Cheers, Russell Potter 09:48, 10 June 2007 (CDT)

I like it. I may add a few others later. Thanks! --Robert Rubin 19:21, 10 June 2007 (CDT)

Pilgrimage's Progress ...

Robert,

This entry is shaping up wonderfully. I hope that you don't mind that I added some brief materials to fill in the blanks for some south Asian pilgrimage sites!

About the section "The politics of pilgrimage" -- maybe the most logical way to divide that one up is not by region or route, but with a more general discussion of the way that pilgrims seeking passage have altered the economic and politicla landscapes along the way, and discussing some examples. I think it would be good to avoid repeating any long lists of geographical points in an overarching article (and this is this entry's strength).

As to "a structure for pilgrimage," what's meant here? I think of structuralist anthropology when I hear this phrase.

The only other major thing needed, I think, is a more detailed description of the Hajj.

At any rate, if there are sections that we can't develop immediately, I'd suggest commenting them out to the Talk page. With the few empty headers out, I think this article ought to be nominated for Approval. The nomination process will bring many eyes to bear, give this excellent article a spit-shine, and wouldn't at all preclude its developing futher, including those further-envisioned sections. As the only current person doing Approvals Management, I am anxious to highlight such an excellent entry, one which transcends and exceeds anything that the Wikipedia or other resources has to show, and is entirely written from scratch here at CZ. Russell Potter 18:30, 4 July 2007 (CDT)