Talk:Joan of Arc/Draft

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Initial article content (from WP)

The version of the Joan of Arc article from Wikipedia used for initial content here is that of October 21, 2006. An earlier version of the Joan of Arc article was the WP featured article for April 16, 2006. In creating this initial content for CZ, I have removed from the WP article all notes and references, infoboxes, quote boxes and, additionally, have not brought the images contained in the original article over here. They can be added later as needed. This initial content is basically just the main body text of the WP article.

I will be editing this article. In doing so, I will proceed on the assumption that the target audience is that of "intelligent lay people". I will additionally assume that the article should fit the content of a secular encyclopedia, not a Catholic Encyclopedia of Saints. There is nothing per se wrong with alternative approaches. It's just that I could not edit the article for such alternatives. (Parenthetically, I could not edit the article for a children's encyclopedia, although I definitely think it might be a good idea to produce such an open content encyclopedia using a sub-set of CZ articles.)

Although there are a few instances where I believe corrective measures are in order in the WP article, I would not expect that the edited version will be significantly better than this generally good quality article, though it won't be worse. Mainly, it will be different. The main difference will be in the length. The present WP article is approximately 7000 words long. I suspect that most folks in the target audience will not have the patience to read through an article of such length. And, indeed, there are many sections which could (and should) be significantly shortened. As one example, the Background section seems to be striving for independent status! What should be here is just that information abut the background of the Hundred Years' War necessary to understand the main sjubject of the article. There will be a separate article on the Hundred Years' War which can supply additional information abut that topic.

JFPerry 08:21, 22 October 2006 (PDT)

The starting point

As I commented in the thread to Jon's article on Peirce, this intelligent lay person is likely to be elusive, much like the notorious "man on top of the Clapham Omnibus" whom lawyers are supposedly able to consult for instant common sense wisdom. I think we should aim to express ideas as clearly as possible and see how it comes out. As it stands, the article is seriously overendowed with facts. This is the curse of Wiki writing. Never wanting to be left out of the game, each new author adds a fact without considering structure or salience in context. It needs serious pruning to remove redundancies and repetitions. Other than the briefest of contextual setting, material on the Hundred Year War should be on its own linked page(s). The issue of neutrality is a more significant consideration in such an article. English and French historians have different sets of cultural spectacles through which to view the past, with artistic battle lines drawn by Jean Anouilh and JBS, et al. The religious dimension only adds complexity to contend with. Since we are aware of the issues, it will be an interesting task to achieve a reasonable balance.

David Marshall 11:51, 22 October 2006 (PDT)

Editing the background section (October 23 edit)

The original Wikipedia entry on which this article is based printed out to 19 pages. My recent edits to the background section reduced that particular section by about 75%. Most of the information in the section, while accurate enough, was either superfluous to an understanding of the subject of this article, or could and should be carried in the separate article on the Hundred Years' War. At the same time, I removed a paragraph from the legacy section related partle to the Hundred Years' War as also being either superfluous or redundant. More specific comments follow.

The two quotations in the lead paragraph of the background section added little to what was said directly in the text. Their removal did not reduce the "information content" of the article in the slightest.

The statement of causes of the Hundred Years' War which appeared in the WP article was superficial at best. It gives no indication of the economic, social, and political ground of that conflict. More to the point, there is really no need to explicate the origins of the Hundred Years' War for purposes of this article. It is enough to know that it formed the backdrop of Joan of Arc's life.

In places, this section read like a dramatis personae. The principal players in this drama can be introduced as needed in the text.

What remains of information concerning the Hundred Years' War is just that which is necessary to an understanding of the context in which Joan of Arc operated.

JFPerry 12:50, 25 October 2006 (PDT)