User talk:Peter Schmitt/Archive 1

Welcome!

Welcome, new editor! We're very glad you've joined us. Here are pointers for a quick start. Also, when you get a chance, please read The Editor Role. You can look at Getting Started for other helpful introductory pages. It is essential for you as an editor to join the Citizendium-Editors (broadcast) mailing list in order to stay abreast of editor-related issues, as well as the mailing list(s) that concern your particular interests. It is also important, for project-wide matters, to join the Citizendium-L (broadcast) mailing list. You can test out editing in the sandbox if you'd like. If you need help to get going, the forums is one option. That's also where we discuss policy and proposals. You can ask any constable for help, too. Me, for instance! Just put a note on their "talk" page. Again, welcome and thank you! We appreciate your willingness to share your expertise, and we hope to see your edits on Recent changes soon. David E. Volk 22:44, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

speedy deletions

Hi Peter, glad to see that you're joining in! I'm the Constable who does most of the Speedy Deletes these days -- please put a *reason* for the request in each of the templates that you fill out. With Caesar, who's done a ton of them lately, I don't bother to *check* his reason in most cases, but I do like to see that it's there. So I'd appreciate it if you'd fill out the templates for the ones that you've already requested.

For instance, here's a template that Caesar just filled out:

http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Template:Contributors_number

Thanks, Hayford Peirce 16:59, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I deleted that particular template after I wrote the message above.

Look, when you make a speedy delete by putting in the speedy delete thing, it is a little more complicated than I remembered, since I've been busy deleting templates for the last couple of months instead of marking articles with the deletion request. When you have a template, or, I guess, anything else that you want a speedy delete on, this is what you add to the page:

{{speedydelete|REASON|~~~~}}

THEN you delete the word REASON and replace it in the center of the new template with your own text, for example,{{speedydelete|I'm sick and tired of looking at this damn template and I ain't gonna take it anymore!|~~~~}}, leaving the four tildes in place. This should then give you:

{{speedydelete|I'm sick and tired of looking at this damn template and I ain't gonna take it anymore!|[[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 21:45, 27 May 2009 (UTC)}}

I'm frankly not up on the difference between <nowXiki> and <noiXnclude>, but I suggest your check this page here, and maybe you'll understand it better than I do:

http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Template:Speedydelete

In any case, I'll now delete that template that you wanted me to.Hayford Peirce 21:45, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I have added a short explanation of this to CZ:Article Deletion Policy. Peter Schmitt 22:31, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Yep, I saw that -- thanks! I've discovered as a Constable that there are *lots* of places where instructions are not quite as clear as we might like -- I've had to rewrite some of them myself. Hayford Peirce 00:07, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Renaming Neighbourhood (Mathematics) to Neighbourhood (topology)

Peter, you do not need to delete or redirect either of them. You simply need to "move" (also known as "rename") Neighbourhood (Mathematics) to to Neighbourhood (topology). However, before you can do that, Neighbourhood (Mathematics) really should be made into a CZ articles which it is not at the moment:

• Neighbourhood (Mathematics) needs to at least have subpages and a Metatadata page before it is a CZ article. Also, the edit page of the main article page should have {{subpages}} written as the very top line.

If you wish, I think I could straighten it out for you ... but both you and Hayford Peirce should first stop making changes to avoid our having edit conflicts. Milton Beychok 21:59, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

• I tried renaming/moving first, but it did not work because the target already existed (as a redirect).
• Well, the Metadata page was already missing when I started to rewrite the article. I wanted to finish the edit before trying to do this (this would be the first time ...) However, {{subpages}} was (and is) already at the top. Peter Schmitt 22:27, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm fairly sure I can do the Talk suppage and the Metadata template and straighten out the Move. Do you want me to try? Milton Beychok 22:55, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Why not -- I can delay my "first time". (I'll stop editing until I hear from you) Peter Schmitt 22:58, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Done. Neighbourhood (topology) exists and it has a Metadata template and subpages. I also re-formatted the Related Links subpage and redirected the old Neighbourhood (Mathematics) to the Neighborhood (Disambiguation) page. Milton Beychok 23:33, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. (I will have to edit some of these subpages.) But how did you succeed and overwrite the redirect? Moreover, we now have some "double" redirects from subpages to "Neighbourhood" (a redirect to "Neighbourhood (Disambuigation)") which redirect to "Neighbourhood (topology)". It probably would be best to delete these unnecessary subpages?! My beginner's humble impression is that the process of moving is a little complicated and yet perfect. Peter Schmitt 23:53, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

(unindent)To change a redirect page, simply go into its edit page and redirect it to the new place. As for Neighborhood and Neighbourhood, they should both be redirected to Neighborhood (Disambiguation). The reader then clicks on Neighbourhood (topology) or another choice on the DAB page. That is not a double redirect .. that is how it should work. Must go now. Be back in about 4-5 hours. Milton Beychok 00:05, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

That was (and is) so. What I meant are redirections such as: Neighbourhood/Bibliography →‎ Neighbourhood (Mathematics)/Bibliography →‎ Neighbourhood (topology)/Bibliography. These redirects can be edited. But does a redirect need a "Bibliography" subpage?? (no hurry! and probably not important anyway. I'll go to sleep ;-) Peter Schmitt 00:25, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Peter, when an article is moved (also renamed) correctly, all of the subpages and all of their Histories are also moved (and renamed), so there is no need to redirect them. Milton Beychok 04:12, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Garbage after moving

Milton, I think I understand this. I meant something different: The redirects created automatically by moving will usually be what one wants. However, in some cases (e.g. in this case) it leaves clutter: see Special:DoubleRedirects. "Neighbourhood" is a redirect to "Neighbourhood (Disambiguation)". It does not need -- and officially does not have {{subpages}} -- but there are redirects like
Neighbourhood/Bibliography (Edit) →‎ Neighbourhood (Mathematics)/Bibliography →‎ Neighbourhood (topology)/Bibliography
which are neither sensible nor useful (but could be confusing if someone accidently hits them). They could, of course, be edited to
Neighbourhood/Bibliography (Edit) →‎ Neighbourhood (Disambiguation)/Bibliography
but I think that even this is not really useful. I think they simply should be removed (Maybe I should not be concerned?)
Peter Schmitt 09:35, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree, Peter, and I think they would normally be deleted.

In fact, I think some subpage and definition templates don't work correctly if redirect pages have certain subpages.

Caesar Schinas 09:52, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

speedy delete requests

I see that there are a whole bunch of speedy delete requests here: http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Category:Speedy_Deletion_Requests but when I click on one of them, there is no speedy delete template *at all* and no explanation of why it should be deleted. So I'll leave them until there's more info on each individual one. Hayford Peirce 13:49, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Hayford - this is because Peter has placed the speedydelete temlate on a redirect page after the redirect code. Due to a MediaWiki feature, this doesn't break the redirect, so you are being redirected to a different page. And due to a bug in MediaWiki, even if you do go to the relevant page - eg http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Neighbourhood/Definition&redirect=no - you won't see the template unless you try editing the page.

Peter - the speedydelete template should always be the very first thing on the page. Here's an example, until Hayford deletes it...

Caesar Schinas 13:58, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I learn a lot about technical matters these days ;-) Peter Schmitt 14:10, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh, we all do... I see you've added a note to CZ:Article Deletion Policy‎; well done. Caesar Schinas 14:21, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Status change

Peter, some things only get updated after the Talk page is updated. Try adding 1 blank line to the Talk page. Other things just get updated on some sort of time schedule. David E. Volk 12:58, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, this worked. Incidently, I thought to have read something similar somewhere, but I tried it with the article page. (And by doing this I somehow managed to replace the article by a single subsection ...strange) Peter Schmitt 14:42, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

By pure chance, I just discovered this: Maybe a null edit deleted the text? Peter Schmitt 00:34, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Beware the null edit! One day I thought I would save time while adding the Biochemistry subgroup to dozens of pages, and instead of adding a space or blank line, I did null edits which deleted all text except for intro section. David E. Volk 11:51, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure this is caused by editing just the intro section. If you click the main edit link which edits the entire page, I don't think it can happen. Caesar Schinas 12:47, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

It happened, unintentionally (I thought that I added at least a newline). Because of "undo" it is not really a problem. However, I only noticed it a day later ... Anyway, before reading about "null edits" I sent an eMail to "bugs". Peter Schmitt 18:34, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

But had you clicked "edit", or "edit intro"? Caesar Schinas 06:31, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

And if you had changed the page in any way, it's not a null edit. Caesar Schinas 06:32, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I do not know precisely what I did. As I said, then I was not aware of the problem of a null edit, and my intention was to add a space or a line, but I did not pay much attention and, maybe, I failed to do so. However, it certainly was not the "edit intro" button because I edited a short subsection (as can be seen from the piece of text that got saved). I did not want to call the complete text for this purpose. Peter Schmitt 22:13, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Ah, OK. It comes to the same. My point is that I think the problem with null edits can only occur if you are editing a single section, not if you edit the whole page. Still, it is a bug which needs fixing. I wonder if it happens on Wikipedia too... Caesar Schinas 05:57, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

By the way, note that if you change the page at all, even add one space or newline, it is not a null edit. Null edit means you changed nothing, and doesn't show up in the page history. Caesar Schinas 09:16, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

That is not quite true. I just wanted to add the result of some experiments (and got an edit conflict ;-) The problem occurs not only with null edits, but also if one adds newlines and/or spaces at the end of the section. It seems that in these cases no diff is observed, and then (as with a null edit) the section edited is saved instead of the (unchanged) article. Obviously, if one edits the whole page this shows no effect, even if the bug may be present in this case, too. (So far, I received no reaction on my mail to "bugs".) Peter Schmitt 09:25, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh; I know the same problem occurs, but I just wanted to point out that it's not actually null if you make a change, and it then does show up in the page history. Like this.

As you say, the bug will have no effect if editing the whole page; I hadn't thought abut that. Perhaps it should be reported to the MediaWiki developers.

Caesar Schinas 09:28, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Adding spaces at the end of a line or newlines in the middle of the text seems to work (as in your example above), but then, of course, you have to be careful not to change the appearance of the text. On the other hand, a space or newline at the end of a page is neglected and does not show because no new revision is stored. Peter Schmitt 09:41, 2 June 2009 (UTC)