Talk:British and American English

houseplant

Merriam-Webster's 11th says: houseplant n (1871): a plant grown or kept indoors.

"pot plant" is not listed

under potted adject., they list (2) "planted or grown in a pot"

they don't have "potted plant" as a noun listed separately BUT, if I check my big old 1935 M-W I think i will find it there. Will report....

Make of all that what you will.... Hayford Peirce 18:35, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

Update: the big old unabridged doesn't show "potted plant" as a separate entry. BUT, neither does it show "houseplant" at all! Neither as one word, nor two. Which doesn't surprise. I don't think I ever recall hearing it until I was a pretty full-grown adult and then I vaguely recall being surprised. What? A kind of a plant in a house, what does *that* mean? Today, however, it's ubiquitous.... Hayford Peirce 18:41, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

That is extremely confusing. But if it's ubiquitous, it's the correct from to go in under 'American' presumably.

Another thing: I was under the impression that Americans didn't also say 'autumn'. Would you say that 'fall' was more common? If so, it should, of course, precede. Ro Thorpe 18:48, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

I had this discussion with someone else a while ago. As far as I can tell, the two words are absolutely, 100% interchangeable. I didn't know until recently that the Brits didn't do the same thing. Hayford Peirce 19:23, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

Guess what, it woz me! Ro Thorpe 13:01, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Housepants?

So if British pants are American underwear, British vests are presumably undervests? I forget what American vests are, waistcoats? And then what is American for underwear (= the whole caboodle)? Ro Thorpe 18:43, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

Vests in 'Merka are "vests", "undervests" or "waistcoast", pronounced "weskit" -- and occasionally written that way. If you're really snooty, you might say "undergarments" for the whole schmear. But "undergarments" generally refer to lady's stuff. "Underwear" is for men. When I was a kid, it really mean "underpants", because men wore "undershirts". But that started to change when Clark Gable bared his manly chest bereft of an undershirt. So today, "underwear" really means "jockeys" or "boxers". Hayford Peirce 19:02, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

Complicadissimo. I'll leave you to put 'vest' in if and as you wish. Ro Thorpe 19:09, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

No one really wears "vests" in the States except as one essential part of a "three-piece suit". I actually own *one*, which I put on sometimes for excruciatingly fancy (and cold) restos in Tucson and San Fran. and I want to impress a Kutie. Otherwise, only Wall St. lawyers and bankers wear them. Hayford Peirce 19:15, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

Underclothing: a lexicon, is perhaps what is required!? Ro Thorpe 19:21, 19 March 2008 (CDT) - or, more realistically, a sartorial footnote? Ro Thorpe 13:02, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Eraser johnnies

'Rubber johnny' was the vulgar slang of my schooldays. Perhaps it'd be better as a footnote? Ro Thorpe 19:06, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

I'd remove the condom entry entirely. Hayford Peirce 19:08, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

Ah, the family friendly policy, true. But on the other hand, don't you want to protect all those innocent Brits who'll come to the US and be mercilessly bullied by their peers? :) Chris Day (talk) 19:09, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

Naw, not at all. Just because I don't see the distinction. Condom in England is a condom in the USA. Period. Hayford Peirce 19:10, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

Ah, I see what you're saying. I guess I was trying to clarify the confusion. No one in the UK would think you were talking about a condom if you said rubber. I'm not sure what people would think if eraser was used? Probably as in a blackboard eraser. I've been away too long to remember specifics. Chris Day (talk) 19:15, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

The problem is with erasers. Brits go to America & get laughed at/worse. Ro Thorpe 19:13, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

Pavement

It was Chris who put in 'pavement'. I've never heard it in American. Ro Thorpe 18:55, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

"Pavement" is used frequently. I think it means the composition of roads in general. "Hayford hit Reaux upside the head with a 2 by 4 and the stunned Brit fell heavily to the pavement." Let's see what M-W the 11th says: 1.) a paved surface 2.)the artificially covered surface of a public thoroughfare 3.)chiefly Brit: sidewalk 4.) the material with which something is paved 5.) plus another long, obscure one.... Hayford Peirce 19:06, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

It was one that confused me when I first came to the states. I might have the exact American usage incorrect but it is definitely different to the UK. Chris Day (talk) 19:09, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

See the above -- it seems to cover a mulitude of things in the States. Hayford Peirce 19:11, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

A note on this as well? - Ro Thorpe 13:05, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

rubbers

Okay, let's make this even *more* complicated. When I was a kid, and it was raining, and I was on my way to school, my mother would make sure that I was wearing my "rubbers". These were little black overcoats for my shoes, made, I suppose, of rubber. By the time I was 11, I was aware that "rubber" also meant something unspeakably vulgar. I don't think the word was actually *obscene*, but it was definitely so veddy vulgar that it would *never* be uttered in polite society. I have a feeling that the other use of the word vanished in the 1960s, both as their usage declined and the other meaning of the word became less vulgar. The way "screw" has evolved from roughly the same period. Hayford Peirce 19:21, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

Well, that's actually more clear. Ro Thorpe 19:24, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

I suppose today, if one were writing an article (or short story) about an old, set-in-his ways, eccentric gentleman, one might write: "Old Mr. Jones stepped into the vestibule, wrapped his pin-striped raincoat around his scrawny shoulders, laboriously pulled on his old-fashioned rubbers, opened his umbrella, and stepped out into the elements." Short of that, I doubt if you'll ever see the terminology. Hayford Peirce 19:29, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

I am informed that the overboot thingies are now called "galoshes". J. Noel Chiappa 22:02, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

Wrong, I fear. Rubbers were small thingees that just barely fit over the entire shoe and were semi-open topped. Think of them as being a rubberized slipper that you pulled over your shoe. Galoshes existed then and, I think, haven't changed. They are/were rubberized boots that fit over your shoes, yes, but ALSO about 8 inches or so up your leg. You could tuck the bottom of your trousers into them. And they had snap clasps on them to tighten them around your leg. Hayford Peirce 23:45, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

"Slicks", "Slickers". Ha. --Robert W King 12:29, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

More endings

I don't know how to do the phonetic stuff, or I'd have added this one myself; one that I'm always tripping over is 'or/our' endings - harbor, colour, yadda-yadda. And did you list 'ise'/'ize' (I forget which is which now). J. Noel Chiappa 21:33, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

Another

In the UK a torch is equivalent to the US flashlight. If I remember correctly the US torch is also a torch in the UK. I suppose the difference between a flaming torch and a battery operated one is pretty obvious in context. But maybe not. Possibly hundreds of British kids burn their sheets at night while reading under the covers? Chris Day (talk) 22:06, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

In the US a torch is something set on fire. Or a propane/blowtorch. --Robert W King 10:31, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

Also, a "Cozy" is like a kettle cover (as in "tea cosy/cozy"(?)), whereas "Cozy" means warm, comfortable in the US.

Harry Potter

I know this book was Americanized for its audience here. Is that common in literature? Or was this a one off. Is that something of academic interest with respect to the body of the article. Chris Day (talk) 23:39, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

A good question. I read so little these days that I don't know. I *think* that some of the best-selling Brits of 40 years ago such as Len Deighton might have had *some* of their really Brit-type words americanized but not all -- some just slipped through. With modern bestsellers, I have no idea. With books that are less than bestsellers, I doubt if any publisher takes the expense to change anything. Hayford Peirce 23:49, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

My daughter reports that her English teacher used to give her a hard time about spelling "gray" as "grey"; she learned the latter spelling through reading Tolkien (and I know she was reading an Merkin edition). J. Noel Chiappa 00:11, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Right. I used to spell it "grey" in my novels until copyeditors and I squabbled over it and I finally had to admit that they were correct -- for an American publisher. So I finally learned to spell it "gray". It didn't help that I had a close friend named "Tom Grey".... ...said Hayford Peirce (talk) 00:29, 20 March 2008

Subway

I seem to recall that in the UK a "subway" is an underground passageway, or something? Is that correct? If so, what's the merkin name for those things? J. Noel Chiappa 00:51, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Yes, a subway is one of those tunnels for pedestrians. As for the trains... the London one is called the Tube; sometimes we Brits say 'the underground'; sometimes 'the metro'... U.S. I have no idea. 02:24, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

US would be subway (NYC) or metro (SF, but really only the trams part, the trains are BART), not sure about other cities. Chris Day (talk) 02:28, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Right, there are local names for the systems (Boston calls it "the T"), but the generic US word is "subway". What I was after was the US term for the pedestrian tunnel - or is it just "pedestrian tunnel"? J. Noel Chiappa 10:30, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Noel is right: the generic USA word is "subway". Various cities have various words -- is it now "The T" in Bahston? It used to be "The MTA", as in the great song by the Kingston Trio. And pedestrian tunnels are, wait for it, "pedestrian tunnels". Hayford Peirce 11:39, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Yeah, they renamed it in about '70-'72 or so, don't know when exactly. J. Noel Chiappa 12:08, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Another childish illusion destroyed. Whadda dey sing now, "Get poor Charley off the TTT?" Hayford Peirce 12:15, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Nah, they use the old words. Besides, Scollay (sp?) Square isn't there anymore either! :-) J. Noel Chiappa 15:28, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

ketchup and theatre

One spelling variation that always gets me on this site when categorising is 'Theater' and 'Theatre'.

Also, recalling this from when I was a younger pup and learning British English via Australian schooling, but reading many American books--is there still an American slant for 'ketchup' being 'tomato sauce'?Louise Valmoria 12:54, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

"Tomato sauce" is never "ketchup" or "catsup" in the States. Tomato sauce is one of two things: a homemade sauce from simmered tomatoes, onions, etc., that may or may not be strained, and may or may not be served on pasta. I myself occasionally make a tomato sauce to serve on meatloaf. Or it is stuff sold in a can (of different sizes) that is more or less like the smooth version of my homemade one. I've looked it up at some sort of bureau of food standards: it's thinner than tomato puree, which, in turn, is thinner than tomato paste. My Bolognese sauce recipe actually calls for about half a can of the stuff, I believe, along with 3 big cans of diced tomatoes. Hayford Peirce 16:23, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

The er re switcheroo is a common one, meter vs metre and center vs centre. The use of an f rather than a ph i note from time to time, as in sulfer vz sulpher. Chris Day (talk) 13:06, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

The irony of misstaking "f" for "ph" (when talking about acids, sulphur in particular) should not be lost on you, Chris Template:Codewink --Robert W King 13:24, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

You mean there is no such think as an f scale? Chris Day (talk) 13:25, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

I'll add a section about -re/-er stuff. It's already in the table. J. Noel Chiappa 15:44, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

My non-posh London parents never said 'ketchup', always 'tomato sauce'. I'm going to start transferring my other stuff, including 'er'/'re' now. Ro Thorpe 13:13, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

I never heard or said ketchup in the UK. Chris Day (talk) 13:17, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

What's up with the ketchup/catsup spellling variation? Oh, I see this gives it in gory detail. J. Noel Chiappa 15:44, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Table clash

I am going to have to remove the 'other spellings' table that someone else put in, because it keeps eating up the one I'm putting in above it. (Computers are from another planet, etc.) Ro Thorpe 13:34, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

This is a new subsection. I'm going to put the raw stuff in again: I don't think it needs a table, even though my original Word version continues the tabulation. Ro Thorpe 14:16, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

That was me that added the third table; the "different individual word spellings" didn't seem to properly belong in either existing table, so I added a new one. That's very odd that it "[ate] up the one ... above it". No idea how that could have happened. Anyway, where it is now looks fine. J. Noel Chiappa 15:35, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Source of information

Who on earth claims that the British English word for an airport is anything other than airport? I have never seen or heard within the last 30 years the alternative words given here. If you go to any British airport (e.g. Heathrow) you will see that it is called Heathrow Airport.People will laugh at you if you use these words, although it is true that they were commonplace about 50 years ago.

Please note, that I looked only at the first word in the table! I have yet to read the others!!! Martin Baldwin-Edwards 21:26, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

I read, or used to read, lotsa Agatha Christie novels and such like. Those people were always getting into their "motors" to go over to the aerodrome.... Hayford Peirce 21:31, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Hmm, well I wreaked havoc with the table:-) Martin Baldwin-Edwards 21:52, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Umm, another one: what the %^& is a "tiffin"? I have never seen or heard this word! Martin Baldwin-Edwards 22:00, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Maybe it's veddy low-class Brit? My M-W#11 says "(1800) chiefly Brit: a light midday meal: LUNCHEON" -- the people in India who deliver lunches to office workers (lunches prepared by their old mamas etc.), aren't they called tiffin wallahs or something Colonel Blimpish like that? There was a long article about them a while ago somewhere, probably the NYT -- they're thriving, in spite of new fast food restos springing up.... Hayford Peirce 22:50, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

I think Hayford is trying for his toff badge. Normal people don't speak like Agatha Christie's characters! The Queen might though. :) By the way I think it was Cha-Wallahs. Cha happens to mean tea in chinese so I presume that word has chinese origins. Chris Day (talk) 22:55, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

A toff? Ta! I found a NYT article about tiffin wallahs but the date of the article is 10 years ago! Either the Times has messed up its dating system, my memory is worse than I thought, OR there was a more recent article somewhere else. In any case, here it is: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=980DEFD7123FF933A05755C0A96E958260&scp=1&sq=tiffin+wallah&st=nyt Hayford Peirce 23:15, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Well I guess they were tiffin wallahs at lunch time and cha wallahs at tea time? Chris Day (talk) 23:20, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

When I was a child in Britain there was a chocolate bar called Tiffin; I later heard that it came from the British India word for afternoon snack, but I have not heard it used to mean lunch, so I'm inclined to remove it... Thanks for all the improvements & for not starting the pronunciation without me: I'll start on that soon. As for the accents they are there for foreign learners who need to 'see' the pronunciation on the correct spellings. They also serve to differentiate between text and example words, although the latter will ideally be bolded eventually. Ro Thorpe 14:55, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

Maybe it's only Box Wallahs (whatever they are) and Old Injuh Hands who ever used "tiffin" once they were back in Blighty. That seems not only possible but probable. In which case, you'd probably be correct to delete this item from the list. I do like the unlikely sound and sight of the word, however.... Hayford Peirce 19:50, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

Well, in that case I'll footnote it. Ro Thorpe 20:14, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

that feline animal that runs pretty fast (faster than the motorcar)

- The pronunciation different is so great that it's almost as if they were two different words. And then when they have to put it in the gair-idge.... Hayford Peirce 21:29, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Are you talking about jaguar? Another is basil, the herb. Chris Day (talk) 21:31, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Yup. Do you mean that Basil Seal (Evelyn Waugh's fine creation) is Baaa-sil in England and Bay-zil in the USA? Another illusion shattered! Hayford Peirce 21:34, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

LOL, there is no way he was ever anything but Baaa-sil. Chris Day (talk) 21:41, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

My Oxfords only give the Fawlty pronunciation of Basil, while Merriam-Webster online gives both. Perhaps Baysil is a New England thing? Anyhow, both will have to go in, as I'm not arguing with old Noah. Ro Thorpe 20:25, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

Several more too, yogurt and vitamin spring to mind. And Americans just massacre Edinburgh. Chris Day (talk) 21:43, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

Did you mean Edinburger, Chris? At least the US pronunciation is logical [the poor things don't know about Gaelic roots and the English unstressed vowel syndrome], but how did the "a" of basil get to be so long? The original Greek has the same sort of "a" as English... Martin Baldwin-Edwards 21:56, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

I was thinking about Edin-borrow. But Edin-burger is there too. Chris Day (talk) 22:22, 20 March 2008 (CDT)

more food

Again, more differences observed from an Australian English speaker, so I am going to need some confirmation from any of you on either side of the pond on the following pairs: hire / rent, fairy floss / cotton candy, biscuit / cookie? Mainly originating from a discussion with an American pen pal (particularly the hire/rent distinction: I said I hired a video, she said they rent videos and hire hookers); the other two are slightly childish. Although fairy floss seems to catch a lot of my American e-pals by surprise. Louise Valmoria 00:00, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

Yes, you're correct on all of these items. Hayford Peirce 12:16, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

Cotton candy is the US name, not sure what they call it in the UK. You do occasionally hear biscuit in the US (dog biscuit, especially), but cookie is usually used for the human-consumable kind; biscuit used to be more common in the UK, not sure if it still is. J. Noel Chiappa 00:28, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

Even more food; don't forget candy. "Smarties" in the US are rolls of the compressed powdered confections that come in small translucent plastic wraps whereas in brit-land Smarties are in fact like big M&Ms. --Robert W King 10:35, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

OED and ise/ize

I'd never heard that story about the OED and the '-ize' endings (to reduce the number of 's' characters they had to stock). That sounds pretty wierd - I'd have thought they'd want to minimize the number of 'z's, because those are used so little. Got a ref on that, I'd love to find out more. J. Noel Chiappa 00:25, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

I discovered this about 13 years ago when I set up an international academic journal and needed to compromise on US/UK English. Unhappily, I don't recall the source of my information (maybe it was OED?) but the reference for what OUP English actually is [particularly with reference to -ize] is a book in my possession. This is The Oxford Dictionary for Writers and Editors, Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1981. I will see if I can locate a reference for what you ask, though. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 07:52, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

On second thoughts, given that I cannot find a reference and may have misremembered (perhaps it was Cambridge UP that shifted from Z to S usage, for typographical reasons), I have modified the statement until we find a reliable source. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 08:18, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

For those who are wondering what we're on about, see this edit. BTW, speaking of the OED, I assume you've read that wonderful book, I think it's called "The Professor and the Madman", about the creation of the OED? J. Noel Chiappa 10:29, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

It is indeed an excellent book. It has also been released as 'The Surgeon of Crowthorne: A Tale of Murder, Madness and the Love of Words', which is the edition that I have, but I think 'The Professor and the Madman' might be the American edition. Slightly ironic how it has different names in Britain and the US! Great book. Louise Valmoria 11:15, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

quibbles

It seems like we could use the help of a linguist with this page. And why do the tables purporting to show differing orthographies have accent marks? If a martian were to come along, he might think that American and British English writers use these diacritical marks in their writing! We should reserve the diacritical marks and IPA for the section on Phonetics and Phonology. I also feel like much of this page could be moved to a subpage with dialectical variants, where the main page has a discussion of different factors in trans-continental English. Also, in re cha wallah and all of that, might we want to broaden this page to a discussion of the varieties of international English (and maybe get our Australian comrades involved), or do we want to keep this page restricted to British-American English?

As a minor point, though it seems like diaeresis should be written dieresis in America, I think that in general, the usage in America is to go with diaeresis. (I would have changed it, but I thought that maybe there is more to it) Thanks, Brian P. Long 11:03, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

Maybe we should change the page name to International English --Robert W King 11:05, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

At the risk of confusion with my own name, I think "martian" should be capitalized (Martian). Martin Baldwin-Edwards 12:53, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

Collective nouns

Quirk’s Comprehensive Grammar points out, in 5.108, on the subject of “Collective nouns”, that “the verb may be in the plural after a singular noun, though far less commonly in AmE than BrE.” The first example given is: “The committee has met and it has rejected the proposal” as opposed to “The committee have met and they have rejected the proposal.” 10:36 also covers this subject.Jeffrey Scott Bernstein 13:15, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

The most common example I can think of is that in England "The government are considering...." whereas in the States, "The government is considering...."Hayford Peirce 13:24, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

Yes, I've noticed that in sport(s - that's another) - very odd on CNN when a cricket team is referred to in the singular. For this and the following, perhaps we need a new section, called usage. Or they could be covered in a note at the end of the vocab section, perhaps. Ro Thorpe 12:45, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

Another difference

In England, Henry Higgins goes to University, then, after too much of Eliza, to hospital. In the States, Zoltan Kaparty goes to the university, then to the hospital. I dunno if there are others of that nature.... On the other hand, Zoltan, if he does not go to the university, goes to college. Go figger. Is definitely a puzzlement. Hayford Peirce 19:53, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

the way the page looks

Sorry to carp, but I think the two columns now look pinched and, oh, let's think of the precise word, awful! Why, with a great big wide page full of white space to use, do they have to be so narrow? At one point, several days ago, it's my impression that they were over against the left margin and definitely looked better. Do we need a tech guru to modify this? Hayford Peirce 20:16, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

I agree, they looked better at the beginning. (And yes, I do like to be pithy - shame about those ubiquitous Martians...) Ro Thorpe 20:37, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

That looks a lot better! Brevity may indeed be the soul of wit, but it ain't necessarily the soul of Plaisir aux yeux! Hayford Peirce 21:11, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

It was originally composed in the mid 90s on a small & ancient notepad, before being transferred on to a computer with a screen little more than half the size of the present one. It's a relic. But for Plaisir aux yeux and better communication I've just added 6 words to the already huge English spellings. Ro Thorpe 11:49, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

Pronunciation: one list or two?

At present, I have two pronunciation lists, one headed 'In individual cases, either a different part of the word is stressed' & the other 'Or a particular sound is different'. I'm thinking they should perhaps be combined because I often look in the wrong one. What do people think? Ro Thorpe 20:43, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

Sorry, I don't know enough about the subject to offer any opinion at all. Hayford Peirce 21:13, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

The first list begins with British addréss and American áddress, and the second, rather longer, with 'ámateur (eur as schwa: ámətə)' in the BrE column and 'or ámateûr (*ámatyure)' in the AmE column. Looking in the Learner's Dictionary, the alternative American pronunciation of 'amateur' is not given, which suggests it's not standard & the word should come out. Your verdict, se faz favor. Ro Thorpe 12:01, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

For what it's worth, without trying to reproduce the weird squiggles that dictionaries use, the M-W 11th (which you really should offer yourself as an Easter Sunday present from Amazon) says, more or less: 'a-ma-(,)ter, -,tur, -,tyur, -,chur, -chor.... That's right, I now recall hearing some ppl, I dunno who, Brits or 'Merkins, say, "Young Kenny is certainly a fine am-a-chure player." Hadn't thought of it for years. In fact in might be Kenny himself, whom I've heard interviewed a couple of times over the years: "Jyke Krymer certainly puts on a fine am-a-chor tour-na-ment."Hayford Peirce 12:26, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

Yes, I've heard all those prons, but only ever the one from Brits. So I'll just give the one variant, as they're all round about the same. And for now I'll keep the lists separate. Ro Thorpe 13:11, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

Exit vs. egsit and luxury vs. lugsury

Are these purely 'Merkin follies, or is there a Brit-'Merkin angle here? Hayford Peirce 12:28, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

The Learner's gives only the ks prons, & I think the gz ones are American alternatives, no? Ro Thorpe 13:16, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

I hear the gz ones more and more often, including national TV adverts. if I am so unfortunate as to pass through a room and momentarily overhear "The ultimate in lugg-zury driving!" I would say, in fact, that probably 50% of the great booboisie now uses that pron. for luxury and exit.... Sigh. Hayford Peirce 13:26, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

I shall spare your feelings & desist. Someone will probably put them in around 2015, say. Ro Thorpe 14:38, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

Endless task?

Is this an endless task? A couple of days ago, just as an exercise for the student, I pulled down my M-W 11th Edition, which is now up to 1622 pages, which is pretty hefty for what started out as a somewhat smaller "Collegiate" dictionary many years ago. Ever since I owned my first one, probably the 5th or 6th edition, back around 1956, there's always been a separate section called "Foreign Words & Phrases", in this edition from pages 1460 through 1466, in two columns. There's no explanation for them except a brief mention on page 6a of the Preface, which says "These are Foreign Words and Phrases that occur frequently in English texts but have not become part of the English vocabulary." In the regular text, on page 1105 there's "savoir faire" but not "savoir vivre". And "savoir vivre" isn't in the other section either. However, on page 1460, in the first column, starting about 3/4 of the way down the page, we find the following, mixed in with mostly Latin words or phrases:

• a bientot
• a bon chat, bon rat -- new to me
• a bouche ouverte
• a bras ouverts
• a compte
• a coup sur
• acte gratuit
• a droite
• a gauche
• a grands frais
• a huis clos
• aide-toi, le ciel t'aidera
• aine
• ainee
• a l'abandon
• a la belle etoile
• a la bonne heure
• a la francaise
• a l'americaine
• a l'anglaise
• a la page
• a la russe
• a l'improviste

Frankly, I don't have the strength of character to look at the rest of the listing.... (I had this all typed up two days ago and was just about ready to push the Save button when my @#$%^&* ISP went down for the *second* time in 2 days. The first time a truck pulling a backhoe on a flatbed in a construction zone snagged an overhead fiber optic cable -- it was down for 12 hours and blanked out a major portion of the city. The second time, in the same @#$%^&* construction zone, some subhuman cretins poured hot asphalt onto an *underground* fiber optic cable -- this time service was only down for *three* hours and only affected *40,000* people. And, of course, in both cases, it also knocked out all telephone communication to the ISP.... Grrrrrrrrrrrrr! This time I've taken the precaution of typing all this up (and saving it) in WordPad first, hehe....) Hayford Peirce 13:58, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

No, I shan't be putting any of those in the French list. It's a sort of supplement for the hyperpretentious. As for your telephonic problems, when I first came to Portugal in the 80s, power cuts were still a common phenomenon. Plus numerous dead cats and dogs on the (er...) pavement/roads as a result of post-revolutionary driving habits. Ro Thorpe 14:42, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

Other pronunciations

These should be immediately clear to Anglophones. Please let me know where explaining is needed, or insert a clarification yourself. Ro Thorpe 19:01, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

Mass-ige parlors

So Brits go to mass-ige parlors not ma-sahze parlors? No wonder I could never find one in London when I asked the friendly (and gunless) Bobbies to give me directions to the nearest at hand.... Hayford Peirce 19:16, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

The 'tony' school I don't understand, and I can't find the word in the WP article. - No, not massij, mássàge, just a different stress, on the first. Useful! But I can understand how the bobbies would have been fooled: and it may have been a bit of an alien concept in '68 London... Ro Thorpe 19:32, 22 March 2008 (CDT) - Though perhaps London really was 'swinging' by then?

London was certainly swinging by then. And my Tahitian wife woulda been swingin' at my head if I'd been heading for mass-idge parlors or however we pronounce them, hehe.... "tony" was way down towards the end of the WP article. Hayford Peirce 21:05, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

St Bernard's School, founded in 1904 by Francis...can't find 'tony' either visually or with the find mechanism - the school has a British tone... - is it that? Mássage, not massidge: garridge though was quite common, and much disapproved of.

Any idea how I can prove that 'tele' is a Greek word, not just a root? I remember it from O Level, and it's there in my Oxford, the one that said curaçao was French, but still... Ro Thorpe 11:13, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

Columns

Could someone (Chris?) equalise the columns in 'other pronunciations', please? Ro Thorpe 19:42, 22 March 2008 (CDT)

Thanks, Chris. Ro Thorpe 10:49, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

&c

Ah, good, you've made a note of St Bernard's. By the way, Hayford, I've made a 'usage' section for your 'to (the) university', etc. stuff... Ro Thorpe 19:48, 22 March 2008 (CDT) Done. Ro Thorpe 14:10, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

The d that isn't a d

John, do you have an IPA symbol for this? Ro Thorpe 12:08, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

Yeah, it's [ɾ] - strictly speaking a 'tap' but it's usually called a 'flap', therefore 'American English flapping'. (I find that amusing, for some reason). I didn't put it in to avoid complicating things. But we should rework that section a bit to include /d/ (which gets flapped too) and point out that it depends on stress. e.g. AmE will flap in 'ladder' and 'latter' (making those the same for many speakers) but not 'particular'. The second vowel must lack stress. John Stephenson 22:53, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

what's gnu with gnats

We got gnats in the States too -- they are not mosquitos, but thingees that are much smaller. Are *real* mosquitos sometimes (but rarely) called gnats in Britain? If so, this should be clarified.... Hayford Peirce 20:43, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

Well, I also wondered about this. When I lived in the UK, I was fairly sure that gnats were not mosquitoes, and living in southern Europe for the last 11 years has taught me that mosquitoes are much bigger and nastier! Martin Baldwin-Edwards 20:56, 23 March 2008 (CDT)

All I can say is that there has been a steady decline in British use of the word gnat in my lifetime. Perhaps mosquitoes were once erroneously called gnats. As a child my parents talked of my 'gnat-bites'. Ro Thorpe 12:12, 25 March 2008 (CDT)

This seems pretty vague for an actual listing of this word -- unless there's some sort of source or documentation for this usage, I would suggest deleting it. I know that in Tahiti, for instance, there are evil little creatures called "no-no"s that are just about freakin' *invisible* and that yet can give you *terrible* bites. I don't know what the French word for gnat is, but it would certainly apply here. And they do have *regular* mosquitos in Tahiti, and they're called "moustiques", bien sur, so the locals aren't confounding the two. Without knowing more about it, I would suggest that the British scene was/is probably the same.... Hayford Peirce 12:21, 25 March 2008 (CDT)

I hadn't realised they were still on the list: yes, I'll remove. Well, my dictionary gives moustique for both gnat and mosquito. A multilingual biologist may come along and sort all this out, but until then... Ro Thorpe 13:47, 25 March 2008 (CDT)

For me gnats were always the small flies also known as midgies. I don't recall using gnat for mosquito. but maybe i have become Americanised as britannica says that gnat is synonymous with mosquito in the UK. Chris Day 14:04, 25 March 2008 (CDT)

That's what I have thought throughout my life, synonymous (and not midges), but clearly it is more complicated than that. I haven't heard 'gnat' on the British media (BBC, Sky, Guardian etc.) for years, so I doubt we need it here. Ro Thorpe 14:40, 25 March 2008 (CDT)

editing problemt

I tried editing to change estate agent/realtor to the correct form with estate agent as British English. It went badly wrong, I cannot understand why, so I have reverted to the version before the insertion of realtor. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 18:07, 25 March 2008 (CDT)

Sorry I put those 2 the wrong way round: very careless of me. Do you see why your correction didn't work? - Ro Thorpe 19:16, 25 March 2008 (CDT)

OMG

Ro just asked me to weigh in. It's gonna take a while! Just at first reading, I find the tables wonderful but the narrative a bit skimpy. I'm also a bit confused by the use of accent marks and I wonder, as someone did above, if non-native writers will start adding accents into their English writing based on these. Would it be possible to use virgules, stress marks and dictionary symbols?

I'd also like to add a bit about words which seem to be exactly the same in both varieties and when used in context would seem to be perfectly comprehensible to English speakers everywhere, but which in fact mean entirely different things. Slang can be quite different, and there are some grammatical differences; the only one I see mentioned is singular vs collective under "usage".

So I'll start adding and ask you all to edit as you see fit. Sorry about the apple cart.

Aleta Curry 21:34, 25 March 2008 (CDT)

Something else. This isn't quite correctabout American English: "...so that whén and whístle are pronounced *hwén and *hwíssle." Some Americans pronounce them like this, not all. I don't even think the majority.

Also, re the American pronunciation of "Amen". It goes two ways: A-men rhymes with may men as in "Amen to that, brother!" or in the Great Amen (fivefold). If the Great Amen is threefold, it's Ah rhymes with Bah!, also in closing a prayer it's Ah-men.

Aleta Curry 23:27, 25 March 2008 (CDT)

More considerations

Jotting them down here so I don't forget: I had these in a table in my word processor but not working here, hope you can understand easily:

Okay, I can't add these to the table, but

• Bill (tabulation) check ( 'Merkins use bill and check interchangeably -- no difference that I can discern.) -Englishmen don't ask for the check in a restaurant-
• Note (money) bill ( 'Merkins also use the work "banknote", although not as frequently.) - Oh, now really--who says in common parlance "five dollar banknote"--only Australians, not Americans.

'Merkin newspapers will write, "Aleta and Ro were stopped at the border with a suitcase stuffed with banknotes."

• Courgette zucchini
• Rapini Broccoli rabe
• Aubergine Eggplant
• Spring onion scallion (or green onion, which is about interchangeable)
• sweets, Lollies candy
• Rocket (salad green) arugula
• endive frissé
• Belgian endive Endive, Belgian endive, French endive
• Pot plant Potted plant (or, as we have discussed, mostly "houseplant", or was it "house plant"?)

• 2 by 4 (construction) vs. 4 by 2 (I don't remember which is which) (2 by 4s are definitely 'Merkin, cause I've been buying them by the dozen recently. They are, incidentally, 1-3/4 by 3-1/2. A hundred years ago (I once owned a 1908 San Francisco house that I extensively reworked,) a 2x4 was really 2x4....)

I think it depends on whether you get your lumber rough-cut, or run through a planer. A rough-cut 2x4 really is 2"x4". Those 1-3/4"x3-1/2" things (actually, I think it might be x3-3/4" - I'd have to check)have been planed smooth, i.e. lost some size/material from the original rough-cut 2"x4". And anything claiming to be 1" thick is actually 3/4" (again, in the pre-planed version). (And there's some special woodworker jargon I can't recall for things like 4"x4"'s.) J. Noel Chiappa 00:56, 26 March 2008 (CDT)

• Wellies (wellingtons) High boots (maybe "hip boots" or "waders"? or are those just for fisherman and Wellingtons are long leather boots?" (Good for S&M dominatrices)) Well, I wouldn't know, Mr Smarty Pants!!!

more spelling stuff

do we need to section out:

• Spelled the same, pronounced differently: can’t, secretary, broccoli

• Pronounced the same, spelled differently: gaol/jail, kerb/curb

more pronunciation stuff

Americans don't enunciate their final 'T' (i.e. don't bring their teeth together): content, can't, don't, want

grammar and usage

• that vs. which used somewhat differently. Hayford will particularly love that. (Brits use them interchangeably, even such masters of prose as Evelyn Waugh. But there *is* a rule about this, whether or not it's observed. But even Fowler, back in the 30s, recognized the difference.)
• English "I will try and..." American, this is a grammatical error, infinitive is used "try to..."
• our present table is not quite correct in that Americans do go to university (attend). To go to the university is literally to go there. (Nope, you're wrong there. American's *never* "go to university" -- whether they are attending it or merely driving to the campus, they "go to the university". Trust me on this -- I live near the U. of Arizona campus and I'm pretty much in touch with a gazillion U-people over the years, both written and spoken.)

Okay, okay, not explaining myself well here. Americans go to the specific university, yes. Americans go to the University of Arizona, true 'nuff. They walk to the university, sure. But, "did you go to university?" "Yes, I went to Harvard."

She only has a high school education, she never went to university. I've never in my long-legged life heard anyone say, "she only has a high school education, she never went to the university."

Concur. My oldest is about to set off 'for college', not 'for the college'. And the term 'college' is used a lot more than 'university', even when the institution in question grants advanced degrees. One goes 'to college' to get a Bachelor's, even when the 'college' in question is the University of Foo. J. Noel Chiappa 00:48, 26 March 2008 (CDT)

You've got it slightly wrong, Aleta. No one ever says, "Did you go to the university or did you go to university?" unless they meant a *specific* university such as the one next door. They say, and I would put my arm in the fire over this, "Did you go to college?" Until recently, ie, 30 or 40 years ago, there weren't that many people getting advanced degrees. They went to college and got a BA. Even if the big state schools were called the University of Arizona, etc. People in Tucson would say, "I'm going to the U.," but they meant the U. of A. Or they would say, "I'm going to State," which meant they were going to Arizona State University in Tempe, up the road a piece." I have *never* in my life, not once, heard anyone say, "Are you going to university?" A 'Merkin would think you were seriously crazy if you said that. For many years the real difference between a "college" and a "university" was that a U. could give an advanced degree and a "college" could not. In recent years this has become blurred, and also a gazillion people now get advanced degrees, hence more people talking about going to specific universities but they *still* don't "go to university", only in England. Or, for all I know, in Canada.... Hayford Peirce 10:41, 26 March 2008 (CDT)

• ground floor, first floor, lobby ( the same as in French: ground floor is "rez de chaussee" or whatever, and "premiere etage" is "second floor" in 'Merkin.)

Seem the same, used in the same manner/context, would appear to be completely understandable, mean something entirely different:

• to Table (a motion): To discuss it, bring it up To defer it
• Pissed: Drunk angry
• College (education): Private high school, lycée, also part of a university that cannot itself grant a degree, Balliol College American: Tertiary institution only granting an associate’s or bachelor’s degree, sometimes used of a private high school as well

• Entrée (dining): Commonwealth uses the French understanding; the first course of a meal Used for the main course of a meal.

Doesn’t exist with the same meaning in the other variant:

• Hacked off: angry American Used literally only, something was cut off

I think I've heard it used in the 'pissed off' sense on occasion. But it is definitely not common, or anything close to it. J. Noel Chiappa 00:48, 26 March 2008 (CDT)