Talk:Homeopathy/Archive 13

Some ground rules (please do not delete from top of the page)

Here are some brief comments that I hope will help reinforce our ground rules. I'm sorry I don't have time for more detailed engagement right now. Some Citizens have complained to me that homeopathy's advocates on this page are tending to purge criticisms. On this I will absolutely put my foot down. You may not do so. You may maintain that (and say in the article how) homeopaths reject the criticisms, but you may not simply delete points, and source material, simply because you disagree with them or you think they are misinformed. If you have a strong disagreement about a published criticism, you should voice it in the article, rather than removing the criticism. There may be exceptions to this rule, but (I understand) not in several recent cases in the present article. Of course, the "reply, don't delete" rule assumes that a source and criticism are important enough from the point of view of homeopathy's critics to be included. While they can have input of course, this is not ultimately a matter that homeopathy's defenders are best placed to decide. The word "skeptic" should not be used, pejoratively, to identify those who reject homeopathy in the article. If there is a need repeatedly to identify the skeptics of homeopathy, you may not use a term that the skeptics themselves reject. You must find a mutually agreeable term. I suggest "mainstream physicians." "Allopaths" won't do, either, although it certainly can be introduced, and it should be. It should not be necessary for me to point out that the article can neither endorse nor roundly condemn homeopathy. The article does not take a stand; it presents both (or all) sides on all controversial issues it presents, and leaves it up to the reader to decide for himself. The article does not endorse a position. Precisely because homeopathy happens to be a minority viewpoint when it comes to the health issues it discusses, criticism of homeopathy does not belong in a separate "criticisms" section of the article. I have my doubts whether there is any need for a "criticisms" section at all, but I can't say so until I've read the current version, which I haven't done. Selective and uncritical reporting of references is contrary to CZ's neutrality policy: this makes it appear that we officially think the literature says such-and-such, when there is legitimate disagreement about whether it does say that. When, therefore, a "skeptic" raises a question about a statistic such as 18% of Americans, we must absolutely deal with this question. I am very uncomfortable publishing information about the percentage of Americans who accept homeopathy, when it has not been made clear what "acceptance" amounts to in the survey that was performed. Therefore, either this essential interpretive information must be included in the article, or the information about the statistic must be excluded. Anything else would be, quite simply, misleading and unscientific. More generally, on a topic with this much disagreement, we simply cannot add heaps of studies and statistics to the article without adequate explanation and without critical responses where such may exist or be possible. Uncritical reportage of the results of disputed studies has an inherently biasing effect. Finally, I want to underscore that if anyone repeatedly reverts significant parts of the text without explaining and defending his actions here on the talk page, I will consider banning that person. I would ask those who are following the article more closely to make a list of such unexplained reversions, and provide it to me privately. On the basis of such information I will either issue a warning or, if the problem is very serious, a temporary ban. Let me finish on a positive note. Despite the amount of struggle over this article, or perhaps because of it, this article has grown and in many ways improved, and other articles have spun off. This is a good thing. As I like to say, if everybody is equally frustrated, that means that work is getting done and the article isn't too biased one way or the other. Still, if we can all follow the above ground rules, I think we'll get along quite a bit better. --Larry Sanger 16:22, 20 October 2008 (UTC) I want to add another point. While I do not endorse Wikipedia's inane and abusable rule "assume good faith," I do want to suggest that we need something a little like that. I might say, instead, "Assume your opponent is reasonable enough to be open to compromise." If you make that assumption, you will yourself be much more likely to propose a compromise, and to be open to one. Then, if the other person shows himself to be completely closed to any compromise, whether yours or any that he might propose, the matter suddenly becomes much clearer. Then you can contact me, saying, "Look, I proposed a compromise, so-and-so did not accept it or propose any compromise in response. What do we do?" --Larry Sanger 15:17, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

How about a break?

I believe we all need a longish cool-down period on this article. I think that a break of two weeks would give all of the participants enough time to get some much-needed perspective. Moreover, you can use your wonderful energy on an article other than this one--how great would that be? So, unless there are any objections, I would like to ask, not require, that the participants here just drop things as they are now and return on November 16. --Larry Sanger 03:50, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. I certainly have a few other articles, here and there, to which I might contribute.Howard C. Berkowitz 03:52, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Ramanand, I'm hoping you read this--did you see the above? Do you not agree to a time out/cooling off period? --Larry Sanger 02:48, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Larry, I agree completely. I was making some minor edits, but if that is not O.K. with you, I'll lay off till the 17th. I'm sorry if I offended you.—Ramanand Jhingade 02:53, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

How about a compliment? This article looks great. It's very readable! When will it get finished & approved?

I can't understand the Homeopathy article at Wikipedia. WP's article starts by confusing me with a lengthy parenthesis about Greek stuffs (sounds Greek to me) & then it completely stops the reader & pierces him/her in the eyes with "A central thesis of homeopathy is that an ill person can be treated using a substance that can produce, in a healthy person, symptoms similar to those of the illness." I'm trying real hard to understand what that sentence means. Can anyone else, honestly?

(Chunbum Park 02:59, 7 November 2008 (UTC))

Absolutely no offense whatsoever. Let's do take a break. I agree with Chunbum that one positive outcome of all the wrangling is a much longer and better article than it would have been if everyone had been nodding their heads in unison! --Larry Sanger 03:12, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Article balance and strategy

The Encyclopedia Brittanica is exhaustive and accurate. Wikipedia has been taken over by the theorizing, skeptical, critics of Homeopathy who ban anyone who has anything positive to say about Homeopathy (99% of the people on Wikipedia are anti-alternative medicine, but due to the efforts of Eubulides, Naturstud and Bryan Hopping, the articles on Chiropractic, Naturopathy and Osteopathy, respectively, are readable). There are lots of other articles (like the ones on Climate Change & Intelligent Design) which have gone hay wire because people want only their views in the article. Citizendium may be going the Wikipedia way with the negative statements and allegations (like the ones by Dr.Sagar, Jack Kilenn etc.) being incorporated here. I think we need to tone down the negative statements and allegations, as well as the no. of them.—Ramanand Jhingade 03:04, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Is anything from the following section from Wikipedia factually untrue, yes or no?

Regulation and prevalence: Homeopathy is fairly common in some countries while being uncommon in others; is highly regulated in some countries and mostly unregulated in others. Regulations vary in Europe depending on the country. In some countries, there are no specific legal regulations concerning the use of homeopathy, while in others, licenses or degrees in conventional medicine from accredited universities are required. In Germany, no specific regulations exist, while France, Austria and Denmark mandate licenses to diagnose any illness or dispense of any product whose purpose is to treat any illness. Some homeopathic treatment is covered by the public health service of several European countries, including France, the United Kingdom, Denmark, and Luxembourg. In other countries, such as Belgium, homeopathy is not covered. In Austria, the public health service requires scientific proof of effectiveness in order to reimburse medical treatments, but exceptions are made for homeopathy. Two countries which formerly offered homeopathy under their public health services have withdrawn this privilege. At the start of 2004, homeopathic medications, with some exceptions, were no longer covered by the German public health service, and in June 2005, the Swiss Government, after a 5-year trial, withdrew homeopathy and four other complementary treatments, stating that they did not meet efficacy and cost-effectiveness criteria, though insurance can be bought to cover such treatments provided by a medical doctor.

Hayford Peirce 04:08, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

OK, it appears that Ramanand and Hayford couldn't resist. (Ramanand, please don't answer Hayford--he's just being clever and making a point, but I don't think that answering him will help to come to a resolution.) I think we are due for a straight-forward discussion of the general, not specific, question Ramanand raises. Is this article not balanced? Why do you think it is unbalanced, Ramanand? I don't want many specific examples now, because that's endless (but see below). I want some more general discussion.

I've seen some of your edits, in which you make the article, and thus CZ, endorse a homeopathic position. That's simply not permitted here. We can report what homeopaths say, but we must make it absolutely clear that we aren't endorsing it. Also, when a homeopath position is taken, with which there are some important disagreements from the side of mainstream medicine, balance requires that we report, without asserting, the point of disagreement. As far as I can tell, Howard and Chris have been trying to move the article back in the direction of balance. As it stands, the parts I've been able to read are remarkably charitable and sympathetic to homeopathy.

Are there large sections that you disagree with? Which? Can you more generally or helpfully characterize why you think the article is unbalanced? If you simply say there's too much negative stuff about homeopathy, that doesn't help me because I don't know how much too much is. I'm sure you don't have time, but I'd love to see a version of the page marked up with everything you object to in red. Actually, I'd love to see a version marked up by "the other side" with everything they object to. --Larry Sanger 05:37, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Friends, I hope that we all realized how blessed we are to have Larry's input here...and I hope that we all understand what he has written.

Hayford's insertion above has way too many factual errors. Most of all, it is confusing because it is mixing up regulations about the practice of homeopathy with regulations on what is and isn't covered by government health plans. Also, virtually every country in the world recognizes and regulates the sale of homeopathic medicines. Because homeopathic medicines are legally recognized as "drugs," doctors are allowed to prescribe them, and in all countries that recognize homeopathic medicines, the general public is allowed to purchase them, except for a small number of low-potency homeopathics that can be dangerous in their crude form. Dana Ullman 20:34, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

There are lots of anti-Homeopathy statements on the internet. I'm only against insertion of negative statements and allegations (like the ones by Dr.Sagar, Jack Killen etc.) being incorporated here.—Ramanand Jhingade 03:32, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't Killen represent an opinion of some weight? Chris Day 03:51, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Killen's opinion is of significant weight specifically because he said it while a government official specifically concerned with complementary and alternative medicine. When the senior British general in 1914, said "the machine gun is a much overrated weapon", it was a significant statement.

In any event, it is specifically against the ground rules to object to factual statements merely because they are negative, and it is factual that Killen made the statement. The United States just went through a political process where, surprising as it may be, candidates made negative statements about one another. Should they not be reported?

A cooling-off period was requested, but the article was not locked. It can be. It is no more likely that there will be agreement on homeopathy than any of a wide range of subjects where the different viewpoints have different standards of evidence and proof. Howard C. Berkowitz 07:33, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

OK, I'm going to try to understand. Sagar simply mocks homeopathy, and homepaths don't want to be mocked, of course. And the Killen quote undercuts the credibility of homeopathy because he is an official with an organization that does careful scientific studies of homeopathy, and he simply says it has no basis.

Like it or not, alternative medicine is in fact mocked, and such mockery is a common reaction to alternative medicine among health professionals, just as it is a common reaction to "pseudoscience" among scientists generally. Right now the article says that homeopaths don't find the joke funny. What more do you want? To remove the mockery; I don't know but I don't see that as being justified. But it could be part of a reasonable compromise.

As to Killen, I'm not sure what the objection is. Is the quotation taken out of context? (Is it?) Or is the problem, perhaps, that Killen is just expressing his own idiosyncratic opinion and does not speak for the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine? Is it that that organization is not the best organization to represent mainstream medical opinion of homeopathy?

Why are you, as you say, "against insertion of negative statements and allegations (like the ones by Dr.Sagar, Jack Killen etc.)"? Is it merely because such statements are, in fact, negative? Is it because you disagree with them, because you think they are false? Is it because you think they somehow misrepresent what non-homeopathic physicians believe? Or do you have some more specific reason? Please do clarify the latter confusion for me.

If the problem is not about any specific negative statements, after all--although that is what you just said--but instead about the sheer quantity of negative statements, then let's talk about that. Can you characterize in any useful way why the current proportion of negative statement strikes you as excessive? Also, can you motivate or argue for the reasonableness of any particular cuts or consolidations? I do notice that there are several sections that might be a little redundant, at least... --Larry Sanger 14:58, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Conditions of compromise?

What are the necessary and sufficient aspects of a compromise that can meet the integrity requirements of CZ, as opposed to both proponents and opponents of a given discipline?

While I recognize that some homeopaths disagree, I find an overemphasis on history centuries and millenia old, even given the existence of history of homeopathy. Looking at virtual any health sciences article, there may be basic history, there may be subarticles on particularly significant historical events, but the emphasis is on current synthesis. I believe that the article has an overemphasis on history, and, in the talk page, insistence that homeopathy has passed the test of time, so it is appropriate to speak of 18th, 19th, and 20th century homeopathic criticism of then-contemporary medicine. This presentation comes across as aggressive and angry; the political history by which some countries avoid homeopathic remedy regulation has been removed by advocates of homeopathy.

There is so much insistence on the uniqueness of every encounter that basic approaches are still not clear. Note that articles on other complementary and alternative techniques, such as acupuncture, as well as mainstream history and physical examination, seem to have little difficulty in articulating these concepts -- and some, such as acupuncture or pain medicine -- are highly individualized.

I regret that I believe there remains a pattern of editing out material unfavorable to homeopathy, which does not seem to be corrected by the existing process. Howard C. Berkowitz 17:11, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Howard, you're asking one question and making three points, and it is all at best loosely connected. Why not tell us which of these is most important so we can focus on it? We can't discuss and adjudicate all of these at once. --Larry Sanger 18:49, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

None of the points are especially relevant without an active, neutral editor being involved. There is a point to what I see as continuing editing to "improve", with specific violations of ground rules. Larry, you as EIC have said there is no right to remove statements merely because they are negative, if they are factual. Ramanand had repeatedly said there should not be negativity. Those are fundamentally incompatible assumptions, and since one set is basic CZ policy, I do not see a satisfactory outcome. Subjectively, I believe there are issues of conflict of interest that will not resolve. The main reason I involve myself in this article is to be able to represent, to potential and new contributors, that partisan positions are not acceptable.

If there is one specific point, it is a firm ruling that a reasonably sourced statement, perceived as negative, cannot be removed. A three-sentence, carefully worded quote from a meta-analysis cannot be "simplified" such that all that remains seems at least a limited endorsement of homeopathy. Other points are not appropriate for a public talk page. Howard C. Berkowitz 19:20, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't think we need such rules, frankly; I don't think they will help anything. I agree that it is never an adequate justification to remove a quote just because it is negative. Also, I can't believe that Ramanand wanted all negative statements about homeopathy removed. I really think it comes down not to debates over specific quotes but to a perception of unfairness or imbalance in larger parts of the text like paragraphs and sections. You don't always seem to explain homeopathy's attitudes sympathetically, and I suspect that is what the homeopaths are ultimately upset about here. They, on the other hand, are indeed removing your perfectly legitimate critical text, which also seems unfair and unjustified. What we need is someone who will attempt at the same time to express the homeopathic positions sympathetically, while casting the criticisms of homeopathy in a straightforward way, that is makes us come across as respectful and not dismissive of homeopathy. Probably, Howard, you need to point out the sections and a few choice more specific items that bother you, and then see if someone else can even things out, so to speak. --Larry Sanger 19:38, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

A diagnosis of the ongoing controversy?

As I look over the article this afternoon, I have to say that I think that most of the complaints that people have can be explained in a simple, if not obviously helpful way: they think their positions are unfairly treated. Yes, so what does that tell us? Well, the sense of injustice is not usually so much due to any particular line in the article as it is patterns or narratives that appear largely on the level of paragraphs and sections. That is, a paragraph or section seems to be "aiming at" a certain conclusion with which somebody disagrees. When we complain here on the talk page about particular criticisms, or deletions of criticisms, those are merely the epiphenomena, the side-effects of the underlying lack of fairness of larger groupings of text.

If that's the case, then we might be going about this all wrong. If perceived semi-broad patterns of bias are the problem, then talking more about specific texts on the talk page will not solve anything. Instead, judicious editing of the article by a good, fair-minded editor or two will do the trick. Such an editor must not only understand what neutrality requires and be committed to it, he must know enough about the subject not to introduce factual errors in adjusting various positions. Moreover, he must be creative and sensitive enough to foresee objections than different combatants will likely have--so they don't have to object in the first place.

Basically, then, if we skillfully edit the text in way that tries to make the various complainants happy, their complaints will evaporate.

This is in line with what Gareth Leng has said in the past. I think he was onto something. --Larry Sanger 19:05, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

A diagnosis and way forward

As I look over the article this afternoon, I have to say that I think that most of the complaints that people have can be explained in a simple, if not obviously helpful way: they think their positions are unfairly treated. Yes, so what does that tell us? Well, the sense of injustice is not usually so much due to any particular line in the article as it is patterns or narratives that appear largely on the level of paragraphs and sections. That is, a paragraph or section seems to be "aiming at" a certain conclusion with which somebody disagrees. When we complain here on the talk page about particular criticisms, or deletions of criticisms, those are merely the epiphenomena, the side-effects of the underlying lack of fairness of larger groupings of text.

If that's the case, then we might be going about this all wrong. If perceived semi-broad patterns of bias are the problem, then talking more about specific texts on the talk page will not solve anything. Instead, judicious editing of the article by a good, fair-minded editor or two will do the trick. Such an editor must not only understand what neutrality requires and be committed to it, he must know enough about the subject not to introduce factual errors in adjusting various positions. Moreover, he must be creative and sensitive enough to foresee objections than different combatants will likely have--so they don't have to object in the first place.

Basically, then, if we skillfully edit the text in way that tries to make the various complainants happy, their complaints will evaporate.

This is in line with what Gareth Leng has said in the past. I think he was onto something. --Larry Sanger 19:05, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Here, I have an idea for how to proceed after the moritorium is lifted: why doesn't everybody list the five sections or subsections that bother you most? Also, if there are particular texts that really bother you, then yes--quote them here on this page and we'll look at them. Please do this!

Just for example, I'll bet the "Questions about homeopathic theory" bothers the homeopaths considerably because they come off looking like fools, and the other side comes off looking too clever by half--they're a little sly, aren't they? That's unnecessary. It can be fixed, in a way that is more respectful but gets across the same skeptical points, and that encapsulates the homeopath's attitude more sympathetically--even if they don't have any answers to the skeptical questions.

Once we have these lists of complaints, the lists of offensive sections and paragraphs and quotations, then, Howard, Ramanand, and everyone else who is inclined to defend their own view, just lay off--do nothing. Let others, like me or Gareth or some others, weigh in and make a few additions and cuts and rearrange things so that they are more likely to be to everyone's liking. Basically, I think you'll stop fighting and we'll be able to make progress if more fair-minded people just roll up their sleeves and do what has to be done. --Larry Sanger 19:38, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Respectfully, Larry, I don't think that is going to work. It's not a "list", but basic structure: what is it that homeopaths actually do? The area that I find most frustrating is not how homeopathic remedies do or do not work, or whether there are vital energies, but that I constantly get the answer that the basics of an interaction are so individualized that they cannot be described to a non-homeopath. I cannot think of a general or specialized area of medicine, for example, where it is impossible to describe the basics of patient-clinician encounter and preliminary planning. While it started out as a joke, I did get a start on rocket science; I'm stuck because I don't know how to format some of the equations. Brain surgery? Sure; I'm not Harvey Cushing but I can explain the basics of central or basic neurosurgery.

Now, believe it or not, I happen to think that there are aspects of shamanic healing that can be complementary. One of Michael Harner's contribution was the cross-cultural comparison of shamanic journeys in cultures that could not have had contact. As long as I can't seem to get basic answers in homeopathy that I can get in any other field that isn't experiential and faith-based, I see no way to progress. Sometimes, all that can be done has been done; sometimes, it's a question of whether the resources are better spent elsewhere. Howard C. Berkowitz 20:14, 13 November 2008 (UTC)