Talk:Black Tape for a Blue Girl

YES that's proper capitalization

I've looked around at this a long time. I've seen it spelled black tape for a blue girl, Black tape for a blue girl, Black Tape for a Blue Girl, but Rosenthal when he writes about it capitalizes every word; and when it's abbreviated its BTFABG, so every word matters. And besides, he's the authority on his own projekt. Russell D. Jones 20:58, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

That's certainly a good point. I'm sure it won't be the last time this subject comes up. You might want to take it to the next level. D. Matt Innis 01:20, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I dunno if it actually *is* a good point. Many famous writers, back in the days when they actually *wrote*, on typewriters, or by quill pens or whatever, no matter what wonderful stylists they were, were terrible spellers, for instance. It took a whole publishing house full of editors to clean up their stuff. Why should we trust Rosenthal here? It's like the Kingston Trio, in 1990 or so, copyrighting themselves as "The Kingston Trio", with caps on the "The". Absurd. Hayford Peirce 02:36, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Isn't that the point, that "The Kingston Trio" should be the ones that decide how the write their name? Do we write "the Mary Tyler Moore Show?" Now that would be absurd. D. Matt Innis 03:07, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Citizendium doesn't have a Manual of Style, and in the absence of one I use Hart's Rules and Chicago Manual of Style, and they state that definite articles and prepositions should always be in lowercase with the exception of titles within quotes ot italics. The "follow what the artist says" seems to be a dictum created on wikipedia, as no other print encyclopaedia I know of uses that, and even in this instance WP uses the title "Black Tape for a Blue Girl". Meg Ireland 03:15, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Also a good point, has anyone considered asking a workgroup editor? D. Matt Innis 03:31, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

It just so happens I emailed three of the more recent editors earlier this morning. Still waiting for a reply, hopefully soon. Meg Ireland 03:44, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Matt, there's a tremendous difference between having a formal title such as "The MTM Show" or "The Kingston Trio 25th Anniversary Show" and writing about the Kingston Trio in an article. For instance, we don't write, "Mary Tyler Moore starred in the "The Mary Tyler Moore Show". We write, "She starred in the "Mary Tyler Moore Show." Just as great writers who can't spell aren't allowed to have their books published with misspellings, we, at an ency., have to respect correct usage and grammar in our articles. Hayford Peirce 03:58, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

What about bolding, is that not also an exception, as, for example, in the lead section of an article: formerly known as The Harry Smith Show? I think that must be right. And bands? The Exes, formerly known as The Whys, ditto. But not, I think, unbold links: on the Mary Tyler Moore Show - though a redirect would be needed, wouldn't it, to avoid including lowercase "the" in the link: "the Mary Tyler Moore Show" (not so pretty)? Ro Thorpe 14:04, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Bolding is not an exception as far as I am aware. Meg Ireland 18:05, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that everytime I see "The Mary Tyler Moore Show", it starts with an uppercase "the" as does The Dick Van Dyke Show. D. Matt Innis 23:58, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, yes, of course -- if you're *watching* the actual show. And you see that on the credits. But if you pick up the NYT and read an article about, say, Boobsie Smith, it will say, "For many years she had the role of the cleaning lady in the Mary Tyler Moore Show." Trust me on this. Hayford Peirce 00:17, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm trying to trust you, but I keep finding things like these. And here. Even in the NYT. D. Matt Innis 00:56, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

As Groucho said to someone or other, "Who you gonna trust, me or your lying eyes?" Geez, don't those guys at the Times pay any attention to me, hehe? I'll have to do some checking of my own! Hayford Peirce 01:47, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

More facts: The NYT Manual of Style says this about "television programs": "In ordinary copy, quote their titles and capitalize principle words: "Issues and Answers," NBC's "Tonight" show, "The CBS Evening News." Show is an appropriate word to describe an entertainment broadcast, but program is preferred for news and public affairs." So, the conclusion that I draw from this, and other NYT usage is that we could have a sentence like: "Three years after The Kingston Trio Show made its debut on NBC, the Kingston Trio announced that they were burned out and were shutting down the show. It will be replaced by The Weavers, if the Weavers are able to find a new banjo for Pete Seeger." Now are you satisfied, hehe? Hayford Peirce 02:43, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Not sure. What you quote and what you did were two different things. The NYT says to "quote" the title using caps. So wouldn't it be more like Ro states (only using quote). Three years after "The Kingston Trio Show" made its debut on NBC, "The Kingston Trio" announced that they were burned out and were shutting down the show. It will be replaced by "The Weavers" if "The Weavers" is able to find a new banjo for Pete Seegar. D. Matt Innis 02:54, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, there are two different things here. In the first part, the NYT is talking about "The Kingston Trio Show", the actual name of the show. As it appears when it first comes on the screen. In the second part, it is saying that the Kingston Trio are the people who appear in the show. For instance, when Nick Reynolds died a little while ago, it wrote stuff like, "Nick Reynold, the tenor and melodizer in the Kingston Trio, died last Saturday. Reynolds, Dave Guard, and Bob Shane formed the Kingston Trio in 1957 in Menlo Park, etc." You can look *that* up and you'll find it just as I say. The other example would be about the people the Weavers appearing in a show called "The Weavers". In one case you use the capital, in the other you don't. Hayford Peirce 04:11, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Forget about the italics -- the NYT was using them in the Manual of Style to make it clearer. I shouldn't have used them afterwards. Here's the lede of the Time's obit for Nick a while ago: "Nick Reynolds, a founding member of the Kingston Trio whose smooth tenor and gift for harmonizing helped propel the group to worldwide fame in the folk-music revival of the late 1950s and early ’60s, died Wednesday in San Diego. He was 75 and lived in Coronado, Calif." Check it out at [1] -- you'll find a dozen other examples of them writing "the Kingston Trio." Which is exactly what Ro has been saying.... Hayford Peirce 04:19, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Now that is some pretty strong evidence! However, Kingston Trio calls themselves "Kingston Trio". Would the NYT still call them the Kingston Trio if the Kingston Trio called themselves "The Kingston Trio"? I can't find an example except like "The Mary Tyle Moore Show" and "The Dick Van Dyke Show". I'd be much more satisfied if that were the case. D. Matt Innis 13:19, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Matt, this is sorta how this whole discussion began, with Ro, and with the Kingston Trio as the example. See the footnote on the Kingston Trio page. Years ago, when they started, they called themselves "the Kingston Trio," and that's how they were referred to, except at the start of a sentence. Then, about 20 years ago, they copyrighted themselves, or registered themselves, as "The Kingston Trio®" or whatever. So, for a while, in the WP article about them, they were called The Kingston Trio even in the middle of sentences. But eventually good sense prevailed, even at WP, and the article now refers to them as the Kingston Trio. As does the article here in CZ. And, as you can tell, as the members die, the NYT *still* calls them "the Kingston Trio," NOT "The Kingston Trio. But you never, ever refer to them simply as "Kingston Trio". You don't say, for instance, "I went to see Kingston Trio last night." Think: Do you say, "Mickey Mantle played for New York Yankees?" No, you say, "Mickey Mantle played for the New York Yankees." And you DO NOT say, "Mickey Mantle played for The New York Yankees." Hope this is clear.... Hayford Peirce 17:12, 13 April 2010 (UTC)