Talk:Eastern Orthodox Church

I have gotten the roles of author and editor reversed. Larry Sanger has pointed out that as an author, I can not nominate this for approval. I would appreciate it if an editor would take a look at this and help establish approved status. Thomas Simmons 16:35, 16 March 2007 (EPT)

Here it is, the basic structure of the EOC page. Let me know what styles need to change. Thomas Simmons 00:03 11 March 2007 (EPT)

FYI: This article is from scratch, it is not taken from the Wikipedia article. It relies on common knowledge of the reader (assumed admittedly) with regard to religion and Christianity and is constrained to simply noting those aspects which may not be commonly known amongst non-Orthodox Christians. It will grow from this set of premises. References are from noted sources and specifically the Orthodox Church. Conflicts or disputes over POV (religions are apparently consumed by them so this should come as no surprise) are noted briefly in anticipation of other articles that would be better suited to lengthy description (e.g. the Filioque and the Council of Florence). Thomas Simmons 12:53 14 March 2007 (EPT)

Approval

This feels more like an outline than an article. I think I would hold off on approval until it is filled out a little... --Joe Quick | Talk 19:15, 13 March 2007 (CDT)

To continue with consensus that would mean there is an agreed upon structure not evident here. Is there such a format for this article? I have not found any. There are specific criteria for approval which I believe this meets but as to what exactly has to be incorporated to 'fill it out' is not delineated. Thomas Simmons 15:13, 14 March 2007 (EPT)

I don't know that there is or even should be a standardized article structure - the way that the information is presented will always depend on what it is that is being presented. Still, I read sentences such as, "The Orthodox Church is distinguished from the Western Christian Churches which are primarily the Roman Catholic, Protestant and non-denominational churches," and my first question is "How so?"

This article is well organized and seems to cover the topic. I'm certainly not an expert on the topic, but I feel like many of the ideas must have more behind them, and I'd like to learn some of that background information as I read. --Joe Quick | Talk 13:39, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

How so? Got it. The first point would be that the OCC distinguishes itself as a church undivided, the divisions are geophysical and lingustic rather than theological and represent a unified church. This is disimliar from the Roman Catholic vs. non-Roman Catholic division and the myriad Protestant and non-denominatinal churches who do not have a unified process of establishing church doctrine and policy. A second point is that it also differs in that it was not subject to the Scholasticism of the Middle ages and the Reformation vs. counter-Reformation episode. Third, it is also distinguished by the adherence to the original Seven Councils and none since. Fourth, another point of departure is the Filioque which most churches employ having received this from the Roman Church. The OCC also represent an ancient corporate body from whcih (depending on who you listen to) the Roman Church alienated itself long before the Reformation (The five patriarachates became four in 1054).

The basic beliefs, the core beliefs, are the same as the other Christian Churches that incorporate the Symbol of the faith, That said, the OCC do not recognise the Pope in Rome (as opposed to the Pope in Alexandria) as the Church Primate (not ape but final authority) That is both theologiccal and administrative in nature. This is also true of the churches originating in the conflict of the Reformation and the Coutner Reformation. Basically, the five points elusidated in the text. Thomas Simmons Talk12:14, 15 March 2007 (EPT)

A proposed outline of subcategories would be helpful. Thomas Simmons 16:38, 16 March 2007 (EPT)

How much, where is it prevalent ?

The article reads in a scholarly manner, perhaps more scholarly than would be useful for the common person (my reaction). A tidbit of information I hoped to understand was "How common is this faith"? An answer at bartleby.com says 250 million, worldwide. Terry E. Olsen 22:08, 23 April 2007 (CDT)

Not sure of its relevance. After all these years seeing and hearing claims of total numbers, this does not do much more than just add to the pile of unprovable claims. These numbers are often political ploys. Orthodox Churches claim vast numbers and state they are the second largest group of Christians after Roman Catholicism. (Some wags give two numbers--Pre-Stalin and Post-Stalin and the numbers vary by tens of millions). Baptists are also an enumerated group as are Jehovah's Witnesses and Anglicans. Jurisdictions are recognized in some groups and none at all in others leaving boundaries as meaningful or meaningless criteria. (Are we talking worldwide or nationally? And who is counting them?). Definitions of what makes one a Baptists, say, or a Greek Orthodox vary considerably. It is a vexed question. --Thomas Simmons 21:24, 25 April 2007 (CDT) +17 hours

Question concerning the patriarchs

Does anyone know what the headgear of Orthodox patriarchs is called. Also tiara? See an image here. Cheers, —Arne Eickenberg 10:58, 9 July 2007 (CDT)

Found it. It's called mitra or mitre. —Arne Eickenberg 13:51, 11 July 2007 (CDT)

Suggested Retitle

"Eastern Orthodox Church" is a phrase that has increasingly fallen into disuse. I used to be at a Church that was listed in the yellow pages under "Eastern Orthodox Church", and what they found was that nobody looked there. "Orthodox Church" or "Orthodox Christian Church" is the most commonly used phrase today. John Whiteford 07:13, 18 November 2007 (CST)

Would that cause confusion with the Oriental Orthodox Churches, such as the Armenian and Coptic churches?—Nat Krause 16:31, 18 November 2007 (CST)

The Oriental Orthodox are a much smaller group, and as such, they are generally referred to with either the qualification "Oriental" or "Non-Chalcedonian". The biggest groups are often spoken of independently, as "Coptic Orthodox". "Syriac Orthodox," "Ethiopian Orthodox" or "Armenian Orthodox", but they are almost never spoken of as simply being "The Orthodox Church. John Whiteford 22:58, 18 November 2007 (CST)

The question of common use was the reason why I placed a number of redirects in the CZ including "Orthodox Christian Church" and "Orthodox Church." Inputing either will get the reader to the Eastern Orthodox Church article.

Another problem is that increasingly the mainstream churches in the US are being referred to as "orthodox" although this is not a formal appleation for any of them to my knowledge. It is simply the overuse of the phrase to the point where it has little historical import and does not actualy delineate the focus of the topic. The disambiguation here might need a short note later. --Thomas Simmons 17:33, 14 December 2007 (CST)

Question about the Reference to "The Orthodox Church"

The reference given refers to the 1963 edition of "The Orthodox Church" by Timothy Ware. However, I have an edition on hand that is copyrighted 1963, 1964, and while I am aware of some minor changes, this page is not even close to the section on Ecclesiology... which is where I would have expected the first reference to have come from. Now the 1994 edition is quite different, and that I do not have on hand, but can check later. But the question for whoever cited this for the first footnote, which edition do you have. Does Bishop Kallistos (Timothy Ware), actually suggest that all the titles listed for the Orthodox Church are in common use... because several of them are not. For example, "The Church of the Seven Councils" is more of a description than an actual title the Church goes by, as is "The Ancient Christian Church, and "The Church Ecumenical." John Whiteford 23:13, 18 November 2007 (CST)

The edition I used for the footnotes was the New Edition, Penguin Books, paperback, reprinted 1997 with revisions which I failed to note in the footnotes--hence the confusion. I have corrected the citation.

The various titles are those gleaned from various sections of the Church, including the Serbian, the Georgian, the Russian, the Greek and the American, in everyday discussions and in other instances in making definitive statements. Bishop Ware, for example, uses "Church of the Seven Councils" in his book (see excerpt at Orthodox Church Chapter 1). Bishop Ware's book is widely referred to within many of the jurisdictions which lends credence to his use of the terms.--Thomas Simmons 18:12, 14 December 2007 (CST)

Introduction

Regarding Changes by Aleta Curry

• Traditionally and formally the Orthodox Church refers to itself as the “One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church" (Ware, p. 307), a phrase also used by denominations in other traditions.

I am not aware of the use of this phrase by non-Orthodox Chruches. Some references here would be helpful.

• Christians in some other denominations also use the word "Orthodox" in their names, and "orthodox" is increasingly applied (as an adjective) to other mainstream denominations to distinguish them from modern and evangelical ones. This article will discuss Eastern Orthodoxy as a denomination.

I am aware of its use as an adjective in political commentary in the media, for example, but have not seen it attributed in an actual formal title.

These need some references since they are not in Ware and the designation of the Orthodox Churches as a denomination or a branch of Mainstream Christiantiy will need further clarification. One simple reason being that the Original Church including the the Alexandrian, the Antiochean, the Jerusalem, the Constantinople and Roman Churches are not branches as such. Those that followed, such as the Armenian and the Georgian and the Russian and the Serbian could be considered branches except that the Original Churches do not consider them branches given that they are in full communion and in many cases are totally autonomous. So the Eastern Orthodox Church is not a topic as a denomination in this way since it gives the article a specific political bias. It might be helpful if the view is attributed to a specific governing body and that must be noted in that context.--Thomas Simmons 19:34, 16 December 2007 (CST)

I have returned the original statement to Ware's definition and omitted references to denomination. Reasons are the label is so politically charged and historically questionable I think we can argue that it is more of an interpretation than a description. It does make a certain amount of sense in limited contexts but the issue is rather too vexed to simply employ it as a descriptive appellation. --Thomas Simmons 17:16, 17 December 2007 (CST)

Incidentally, I have heard the term "orthodox" used by some evangelicals to contrast what they see as the broad mainstream of Christianity as opposed to marginal groups such as Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. I'm not sure how widespread this usage is.—Nat Krause 18:47, 18 December 2007 (CST)

I am not sure either but I do see it in the same places as a tag to define, if rather loosely, what they approve of and do not. It think it is, in that sense, being used as a political label. --Thomas Simmons 19:06, 19 December 2007 (CST)

1054 or 1954?

"Latin Church after a synod of Eastern Orthodox Bishops on July 20 of 1954."

Domergue, well spotted.

How embaraaaaassssing. :) --Thomas Simmons 19:43, 13 January 2008 (CST)

Schism with Rome

This section was added to a subtopic that carried specific references by a recognised scholar. The added information sounds familiar but it must be linked to actual sources. Again, this is a problem with Wikipedia that we strive to avoid here. Could we have these additions specifically cited, say, in the next couple of weeks if not earlier? Thomas Simmons 10:17, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

The Church Ecumenical

I am not sure what this last addition (italics) refers to. Could the author who contributed provide an explanation and a source for this? "Its basic beliefs are articulated in the wording of the Nicene Creed (an essential statement of the Christian faith); and it is distinct in that it keeps the original liturgical calendar." Thomas Simmons 10:25, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Sources for this were requested in December last year. I will just place the unsourced addition here until it can be linked to a sources

"(The phrase is contained in the Nicene Creed and is also used by some other denominations in other traditions who employ the Creed in their liturgy.) Its basic beliefs are articulated in the wording of the Nicene Creed (an essential statement of the Christian faith); and it is distinct in that it keeps the original liturgical calendar."

I also noticed that if the wording were changed to say ""(The phrase is contained in the Nicene Creed WHICH is also used by some other denominations in other traditions who employ the Creed in their liturgy.)" it would slightly alter the meaning. However, I am not aware of any other established church that formally refers to itself as the ""One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church" although I have been in numerous churches who do employ the Nicene Creed as it is used by the Roman Catholic Church. A little help here would be informative.Thomas Simmons 10:35, 30 October 2008 (UTC)