Talk:Osama bin Laden

Article name

He's usually given as Osama bin Laden, isn't he? (The 'bin' means 'son of' in Arabic, so I often see it lower-cased.)

You are absolutely correct about the "bin". Good catch.

"Usama Bin Laden" is the usual spelling used by the Department of Defense. I am not wedded to this spelling, over other spellings.

Cheers! George Swan 14:37, 4 May 2008 (CDT)

I did a quick Google, to see which was more common, and "Usama" gets 285K, "Osama" 10.8M. Is there a standard for the transliteration of Arabic names (I know Chinese and Japanese have these, but don't know so much about Arabic) that would prefer one or the other? If not, we should probably move it to comport with common usage. J. Noel Chiappa 15:08, 4 May 2008 (CDT)

PS: Restricting it to pages in English gives 344K for "Usama bin Laden" and 670K for "Osama". Less of a difference, but still significant. "Osama bin Ladin" ('i' instead of 'e') gets 179K, and "Usama" only 35K. J. Noel Chiappa 15:14, 4 May 2008 (CDT)

I have created a redirect from Osama and renamed this one, as I think we all agree on these naming issues. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 15:04, 4 May 2008 (CDT)

As I see it, this is a Romanization issue. We will want to have the article live at the proper transliteration of bin Laden's name, with redirects from all of the other common spellings. Until we get someone who does MSA, though, we'll just have to muddle through. Brian P. Long 15:21, 4 May 2008 (CDT)

What's an MSA? I took a quick look to see if there was a 'preferred' transliteration system, but don't seem to see that there is one (there are several, but none seems to be preferred). J. Noel Chiappa 15:29, 4 May 2008 (CDT)

Sorry-- MSA stands for Modern Standard Arabic, also known as Fusha. MSA is something akin to the BBC pronunciation of Arabic, although my understanding is that the differences between MSA and the regional dialects can be pretty stark. The pronunciation also varies depending on the region, so there may be a "proper" (MSA) way to say bin Laden's name, and also a Yemeni-Saudi pronunciation. We'll just have to wait for someone with the requisite experience. Brian P. Long 15:45, 4 May 2008 (CDT)

I don't think expertise is required in titling this entry. I think user expectations (as with the bizarrely named World War II, Holocaust article). Article names should be descriptive - and currently the vast majority of writers in the English language use "Osama", not "Usama". The Google statistics given by J. Noel Chiappa are only one part of this. The British Library's Integrated Catalogue lists 83 books if you search for "osama bin laden" and three books if you search for "usama bin laden". Google News returns 132 hits for "usama" and 11,795 for "osama" - and the latter includes results from major news agencies and publications including AFP, BBC, AP, Washington Post, the Telegraph of London, Time, Slate, ABC, the New York Times and the Economist. It is also the usage of publications from the British government, the United Nations and the various institutions of the European Union. Dictionaries and encyclopedias don't prescribe usage, nor do they try to formalize it. Thus, even if "Usama" is the more sensible way to Romanize the Arabic, we aren't deciding which is the most sensible, we are describing how it is. See this Slate article. Conclusion: Osama bin Laden as home for article on the al-Qaeda leader with Usama bin Laden as redirect. --Tom Morris 17:08, 4 May 2008 (CDT)

I disagree completely. THe article is redirected from the other more common spelling, so there is no difficulty in locating it. Our interest should be in providing an accurate transliteration of non-Latin names, such that they resemble the original pronunciation. The fact that people across the English speaking world thrive on incorrect spellings and wrong "facts" is not relevant. My non-expert understanding is that the Arabic is nowhere near the English open "O" sound and is closer to the unstressed "U" sound, thus making this a better transliteration. We use expert knowledge on CZ, not populist beliefs, so we do need expertise on this matter. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 17:56, 4 May 2008 (CDT)

I would have no problem leaving this here, with a redir from ObL, if this is the correct transliteration in whatever Romanization scheme we adopt for Arabic. CZ:Romanization/Arabic, anyone? J. Noel Chiappa 19:59, 4 May 2008 (CDT)

Until we get our own version of l'Académie française, English does get defined in a large part by usage not experts. Do we change the H. G. Wells article over to Herbert George Wells? I mean, the latter is far more objective, and no doubt on the man's birth certificate. Sadly, language is not an objective, rational thing. There is no piece of evidence of test we can do to determine the rightness of this. Until we formalize naming conventions, it would seem better to follow the overwhelming direction of current usage - both online, in the press, in books and in scholarship. Romanization schemes are fairly irrelevant - follow the usage. This is an encyclopedia, not a Spelling Reform Society newsletter. There is a reason we don't all speak Esperanto. --Tom Morris 20:29, 4 May 2008 (CDT)

Perhaps we could change the incorrect spelling of Jesus to Yeshua while we are at it. --Tom Morris 20:45, 4 May 2008 (CDT)

Unless we have a good reason not to, we should always prefer the most common correct spelling; this is what CZ:Naming Conventions states. I disagree that we must provide, as one person above puts it, "an accurate transliteration of non-Latin names." In an encyclopedia, the function of a title is to identify the topic in a way that is most recognizable to most of the people who use the encyclopedia, so that information is maximally findable. I haven't read the discussion above, so don't take this as The Word From The Top, but I think the article should live at Osama bin Laden.

Also, the first sentence here does not contain any information whatsoever about why there is an article about Osama bin Laden: he's the most famous terrorist in history, after Robespierre, perhaps. We should say so in the first sentence. Cf. CZ:Article Mechanics (long version) on the first sentence and paragraph of articles. --Larry Sanger 21:26, 4 May 2008 (CDT)

Well, the whole thing about a wiki is that unlike a printed encyclopedia we can choose what sort of transliteration is used for the main article and redirect from others. As there is no consensus, I really don't see why we should be dictated to by popular ignorance as disseminated on the internet and measured by the number of Googled pages. One of the external links cited above, notes that the person in question uses the Romanisation "Usama": does this count for nothing?

I agree about the opening sentence, though. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 21:46, 4 May 2008 (CDT)

Well, you're begging the question, Martin: you're assuming that "Osama" reflects "ignorance" (i.e., is incorrectly spelled). But I doubt you have made your case. At a certain point, popular usage trumps all considerations of orthographic/grammatical correctness; the correctness of such matters of usage is always established, ultimately, by popularity. In this case, "Osama" is quite frankly far more popular among English writers. I notice also that the BBC uses it, as does such diverse sources as the Anti-Defamation League, Information Please, CNN, Salon.com, Time magazine, the London Times and Telegraph, and on and on. To dismiss such sources as "ignorant" is shrug-worthy. --Larry Sanger 10:40, 5 May 2008 (CDT)

CZ is educational. It should give the correct spelling, not the popular one. If the correct spelling is Usama, and we can redirect from 'Osama', then there isn't a problem in terms of locating this article. Denis Cavanagh 10:44, 5 May 2008 (CDT)

I agree 100% with all of that, Denis (including your conditional claim). But "Osama" is not incorrect; in fact, it is so much more common that our policies really demand that it be used, unless it can be firmly and clearly established that it is incorrect, which no one has done. --Larry Sanger 10:46, 5 May 2008 (CDT)

I am unsure, but is Usama not the direct translation? Denis Cavanagh 10:50, 5 May 2008 (CDT)

What does "direct translation" mean, here, Denis? The phrase is literally meaningless. I notice the FBI, CIA, Fox News, and al Jazeera use "Usama." — (The Constabulary has removed an initialism here. Please use plain English instead, for example, "for what it's worth" ) —. Seems that every other credible (?) source uses "Osama." Aha, including that other ignorant ;-) educational resource, Encyclopedia Britannica. --Larry Sanger 10:58, 5 May 2008 (CDT)

OK, point made :-) By the way, what does FWIW mean?? Denis Cavanagh 11:43, 5 May 2008 (CDT)

Unless there is a compelling technical reason for going with Osama bin Laden (such that readers of Citizendium will not find the information they're looking for) I disagree strongly that an imprecise transliteration, by its preponderant usage, somehow manages to become the right way to do things.

The fact of the matter is that there are are a number of consonants in Arabic that are not phonemes in English (they're usually represented ḥ, x, ṣ, ḍ, ṭ, and ğ, and two more I couldn't find in the little table at the bottom). The fact that most popular writers in English do not bother to write the diacritics does not make it right-- it's an arrogant thing to do. Not bothering to get names right is in the same league with travelling abroad and complaining when the signs aren't in English. It's wrong to acquiesce in such a practice when the remedy (proper transliteration) is technically feasible and relatively trivial. Furthermore, we can have all the redirects we like-- doing the right thing isn't going to hurt anyone.

The other fact of the matter is that we don't have any people who do Modern Standard Arabic on board, so that we might determine what the proper transliteration is (from what I can tell from Wikipedia-- and I find the unicode Arabic script impossible-- the proper transliteration is something like ’Usāma or ’Osāma, with a long vowel and an alif in front). Thanks, Brian P. Long 12:24, 5 May 2008 (CDT)

I share your view on this, Brian. It really is a form of arrogance [and ignorance] to anglicise other people's names not to facilitate the most accurate pronunciation but to suit oneself. The fact that there is a herd mentality of copying populist newspaper spellings is no reason for CZ to do so, especially when the US agencies usually adopt the spelling Usama. I don't know how to insert the diacritical marks, but it might be wise to confine them to the text and not use them in article titles. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 12:34, 5 May 2008 (CDT)

In case of any doubt about the meaning of my remarks above, the term "arrogance" refers to entire cultures or countries. I realise that it might look insulting, but it is merely a comment on cultural dominance and the exercise of power: this goes way beyond mere individuals, and was certainly not aimed at anyone on CZ. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 23:40, 5 May 2008 (CDT)

That's exactly how I interpreted them, Martin, and that meaning was immediate and very obvious to me. May I suggest you all not worry about this naming issue. Get a solid, meaty article up first.  :-) Stephen Ewen 03:25, 6 May 2008 (CDT)

Well, now that that's cleared up, let me say what I think of those large, international classes of people, which I am sure has absolutely no representatives on CZ, who are so pretentious and pedantic as to think they can replace perfectly good English usage with their own, new, more "correct" spellings of common words, phrases, and names...  ;-)

Seriously, and all pointless and unconvincing exchanges of epithets aside, here are a few notes about this issue:

• As everybody knows, some names are spelled certain ways by convention. Indeed, some proper names are ignored altogether in favor of a local (e.g., English) name for something--even by people who obviously are not merely ignorant about what the name and spelling would be if the spelling followed "the rules"--they see nothing wrong with following the convention. The Citizendium has not yet adopted a rule that it shall reject all such spellings if they are inconsistent with whatever pedants insist is most rigorously correct. I would argue strongly against such a rule; I am strongly in favor of using the most commonly-accepted correct name and spelling, so that our articles can be most easily located.
• There is nothing arrogant whatsoever about this practice. It is done in all countries and all languages, of course, not just by English-speaking journalists.
• Given the above commonly-known facts about language, it is simply wrong to say that whatever linguists say are "correct transliterations" or "correct Romanizations" of names are always necessarily the correct spellings of the names.
• If our articles live under a title they are not usually found under, and there is a redirect, the article will be indexed by the title under which it appears. This will make it harder for people to find using Google and other search engines.
• CZ's Naming Conventions require us to use the most common correct name for a thing. Absolutely nothing anyone has said above goes the slightest way to show that "Osama bin Laden" is incorrect.

--Larry Sanger 09:00, 7 May 2008 (CDT)

Equally, there is nothing to show that "Usama bin Laden" is an incorrect name. Considering that this is the spelling used by the man himself, the FBI and other US agencies -- in other words, the people who actually know what is going on -- we have to ask ourselves the question: "Where does this spelling "Osama" come from? As far as I can tell, it is from the popular press and online blogs. If you want that to be CZ policy, Larry, then I suggest you make a proposal to the Editorial Council saying so. As far as I am concerned, the spellings and other information contained in newspapers are of minor relevance: we can simply redirect from their versions, if need be. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 10:48, 7 May 2008 (CDT)

I am not saying that "Usama bin Laden" is incorrect. I am saying the obvious--that there can two different correct spellings. If you want to argue based on usage, then please be complete and fair, Martin: not just "popular press," but almost every single English-speaking newspaper in the world, as well as Encyclopedia Britannica and many, many other very credible, well-edited sources. In short, if you are trying to make an argumentum ad expertum against the correctness of "Osama," you'll lose. Those sources should be able to identify a "correct" spelling for the name as well as U.S. government agencies. And since when, Martin, are you trusting the judgment of U.S. government agencies? :-) Anyway, there's no need for any resolution in this case. The naming convention already in place is clear enough in this case. --Larry Sanger 13:30, 7 May 2008 (CDT)

I am in no way trying to dispute the fact that there is a point at which the usage train has left the station. That is exactly the point I have made in my draft proposal at CZ:Romanization/Ancient Greek-- English-language writers have a choice between following convention and writing Achilles or being weird, basically, and writing (the technically more precise) Akhilleus. There have been a very small number of innovators who have written "Akhilleus," but the vast majority of Classicists write "Achilles;" the Oxford Classical Dictionary, the standard English-language reference work in the field, has its entry under "Achilles." English-language usage, for scholars and lay folk alike, has been decided in favor of "Achilles."

The point at issue here is when there is an active discrepancy in usage. Citizendium policy, as I read it, is that we should come down on the side of correctness. Correctness, to me, means following the usage of experts. The issue is not whether newspapers and Britannica are well-edited or generally credible; the issue is that that they are not scholarly, and they do not reflect correct, scholarly usage. The name of the last prophet of Islam is spelled "Muhammad" in the print media and Britannica. If this were the only current usage in English it would be one thing, but my impression (and I am not an expert) is that scholarly works split down the middle between "Muhammad" and "Muḥammad," a spelling which accurately reflects the pronunciation.

I think it's clear from the style recommendations of the FBI and CIA that "Osama" is not the only current usage. At this point, this should be an issue for the folks who are experts in the field-- the rest of our opinions basically don't matter. Brian P. Long 17:16, 7 May 2008 (CDT)

al-Qaeda or al-Qaida?

Similarly the United States Department of Defense spells the group "al Qaida" whereas "al Qaeda" seems to be the more popular name in general usage... George Swan 17:49, 4 May 2008 (CDT)

It should be al-Qa'idah as a formal transliteration, and I can recall Tony Blair diligently pronouncing it as such [unlike Bush, who doesn;t appear to know how to pronounce anything]. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 18:01, 4 May 2008 (CDT)

Wrong place to discuss this name. J. Noel Chiappa 19:59, 4 May 2008 (CDT)

Move to Osama bin Laden?

Larry: I note that you have deleted the above redirect in preparation for moving this article. As far as many of us are concerned, we have not reached a conclusion on the correct title, and certainly many of us disagree with your reasoning. I suggest that this has to be covered adequately by the Romanisation proposal [which at this time, it is not]. It would be premature to retitle the article before we have a policy on transliterated names. Martin Baldwin-Edwards 12:42, 5 May 2008 (CDT)

I checked with a friend of mine who knows Modern Standard Arabic, and he would transliterate bin Laden's name ’Usāma bin Lādin. My friend happens to be German, and German romanization may be slightly different than the method used in America, but at the very least, this is a reasonably precise transliteration of his name. Thanks, Brian P. Long 16:33, 5 May 2008 (CDT)

Well, I don't agree that there should be any presumption in favor of "Usama" simply because the article was first created under that name. I'll be happy to engage your arguments, but I was hoping others would do so and not leave it all to me. --Larry Sanger 23:19, 5 May 2008 (CDT)