Talk:Introduction to quantum mechanics

The metadata subpage is missing. You can start it via filling in this form or by following the instructions that come up after clicking on the [show] link to the right.

Do you see this on PREVIEW? then SAVE! before following a link. To find out more about the use of metadata for the management of Citizendium pages, see CZ:Metadata. You may see this box for one of two reasons. Either: A - New page has been created, or subpages template was added to an existing page B - Cluster move is in progress Click either the A or B link for further instructions. [Feel free to recommend improvements to the text or links in this template] A - For a New Cluster use the following directions Subpages format requires a metadata page. Using the following instructions will complete the process of creating this article's subpages. Click the blue "metadata template" link below to create the page. On the edit page that appears paste in the article's title across from "pagename =". You might also fill out the checklist part of the form. Ignore the rest. For background, see Using the Subpages template Don't worry--you'll get the hang of it right away. Remember to hit Save! the "metadata template". However, you can create articles without subpages. Just delete the {{subpages}} template from the top of this page and this prompt will disappear. :) Don't feel obligated to use subpages, it's more important that you write sentences, which you can always do without writing fancy code. [Feel free to recommend improvements to the text or links in this template] B - For a Cluster Move use the following directions The metadata template should be moved to the new name as the first step. Please revert this move and start by using the Move Cluster link at the top left of the talk page. The name prior to this move can be found at the following link. [Feel free to recommend improvements to the text or links in this template]

---

Proposal

I propose that people that are knowledgeable about quantum mechanics list here topics that should be included in an article on quantum mechanics for the layperson. (Maybe that would be a better title of this article?). I hope that skilled (possibly, or even preferably, non-science) writers pick this up and make a readable, consistent, article out of it. If they slip or misunderstand something don't worry, that has happened to every learner of QM. --Paul Wormer 12:19, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

Recall we have a Student Level subpage that has not been utilized much yet. Such an article would live at Quantum mechanics/Student Level. One problem is I'm not sure we have really defined the role of this subpage, although I would think aiming it at the layperson should be the target. Chris Day 12:31, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

I was not thinking of students, but of journalists and of other interested adults that want to widen their horizon, but it could be useful to (non-physics) students as well. --Paul Wormer 12:38, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

Maybe we need to rename that subpage. It might be used more if it was more of an outreach article rather than aimed at students. After all what does student mean, it could refer to many different levels of expertise. Chris Day 12:43, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

Yes, I agree, "student" reminds one of college and exams. I was thinking of general education (more along the the ideals of Enlightenment). --Paul Wormer 12:51, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

Maybe it should be called something like, "Introductory" or "Prequisite". "Fundamentals"? Just tossing out ideas here. --Robert W King 12:54, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

"Introductory" is OK, "prequisite" smacks too much of school. --Paul Wormer 13:02, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

I'm going to disagree with you all and claim that since we are an encyclopaedia aimed at a general readership, Quantum mechanics itself should be the introductory article, and more specialist material should be elsewhere. J. Noel Chiappa 12:58, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

I disagree strongly, there is space for all of us under the sun, graduate level articles can be very useful, not only for grad students but also for undergrads, if only to show them that there is more to know. --Paul Wormer 13:02, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

I didn't say we shouldn't have a grad-level article ("more specialist material should be elsewhere"). J. Noel Chiappa 13:07, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

See the forum discussion here. I made a similar point. Chris Day 13:16, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

Perhaps we're doing it backwards? Maybe we need a Quantum mechanics and an Advanced Quantum mechanics? --Robert W King 12:59, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

Well, please consider that there are no other "introduction to" type articles in CZ, as far as I know, at least as main namespace articles. Also consider that CZ articles are supposed to be as accessible as a competent article on a topic can be made to our audience, i.e., university undergraduates. Therefore, our basic rules dictate that the article that lives at quantum mechanics should be an introductory-type article, if such an article is possible (I have no opinion on that).

Variant versions of articles, and other reference material, are supposed to be grouped together in clusters; that is the whole purpose of the Subpages system. Now, it's true that we have a tutorial type article planned for subpages; but an introductory article would not, I assume, be a "tutorial," it would be an introductory article. Moreover, it is unacceptable to me as Editor-in-Chief that we make an advanced article as the main article on this one topic, if a simpler, more undergrad-accessible article is possible.

Given all this, the solution seems simple to me: we invent a new subpage type: "Advanced" pages. These give an advanced or graduate-level (or postgrad-level) treatment of particularly complex topics. Then, if I understand correctly, the current quantum mechanics article would live at Quantum mechanics/Advanced, and the planned (but misnamed) "Introduction to quantum mechanics" article would live at quantum mechanics. Then, if anyone wants to introduce QM with problems, "tutorial"-style, that could live at Quantum mechanics/Tutorial. The latter is not necessary, of course. --Larry Sanger 13:14, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

See forums for similar point. Chris Day 13:19, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

Content

Here we go again, talk, talk, talk. You guys, give rather your opinion about CONTENT --Paul Wormer 13:05, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

The problem is we have not solved the audience and home problem. This is a recurring discussion that has flared up again. What you are doing is right. Start and the edits will follow. I can't start as I'm clueless on the topic. I can tell you if you have it at the right level though. Chris Day 13:21, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

Historical approach?

An approach could be historical (I write this from memory, I'm without books):

1. Around 1890 physics is "finished", minor detail: UV catastrophe.
2. 1900 Planck solves UV catastrophe by quantizing the energy of harmonic oscillator (Insert here: explanation harmonic oscillator and its use in physical models).
3. 1905 Einstein proposes that light consists of virtual quantized oscillators to explain photoelectric effect
4. Around 1910 quantization lattice vibrations (Einstein Debye crystal)
5. 1913 Bohr atom
6. 1915 Old Bohr-Sommerfeld quantum theory
7. 1924 de Broglie: (very very light) particle shows wave properties (insert about waves)
8. 1925 Heisenberg, Born, Jordan: matrix mechanics (insert about matrices)
9. 1926 Schroedinger wave equations (time-independent, time-dependent), relation with matrix mechanics
10. 1926 Spin
11. 1927 Pauli exclusion principle, Heisenberg uncertainty relation. Non-relativistic QM essentially finished at this point in time.

--Paul Wormer 12:38, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

Sounds like a topic for another article to me: history of theory of quantum mechanics or something like that. --Larry Sanger 13:03, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

Could be used in a timeline! --Robert W King 13:04, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

If we had a lot of room and/or reader's time, I might agree with you. I love to read about science in a chronological fashion, because the growth in the minds of scientists, in understanding of the field, over time, is matched nicely (and produces) an equally growing understanding in my own mind.

However, we don't have that luxury - although I think such a time-oriented piece would be wonderful, perhaps at Development of quantum mechanics, or some such location.

I will go off and try to create the text of the intro paragraphs, and you can see if my goal of 'quantum mechanics for the masses in 3 minutes' is reachable. (I'm something of a believer in Vonnegut's aphorism in Cat's Cradle - although I think he's a bit too hard, because some people have a hard time explaining in words things they understand in non-verbal ways.) J. Noel Chiappa 13:06, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

I accept that, how about starting with an explanation of wave and particle behavior in classical physics and the shock it gave when it appeared that electromagnetic waves and very light particles (electrons) share many properties? --Paul Wormer 13:11, 1 April 2008 (CDT)

That's part of what I'm doing. Give me an hour or so... J. Noel Chiappa 13:18, 1 April 2008 (CDT)