Talk:Sathya Sai Baba

The entry needs to be far more concise. Andries 22:10, 23 April 2007 (CDT)

Wait a bit before deletion, please. Andries 10:12, 19 May 2007 (CDT)

Trying for better readability

Let me preface my comments by saying I have no preformed opinion about the subject, but find the article hard enough to read that I can't form an opinion from it. As a result, I have tried to clean up some of the references, especially with embedded quotes that need to be seen in critics. I have, unless in a direct quote, tried to remove words such as "skeptic" and "follower", which we found to be needlessly polarizing in the ground rules on working on homeopathy.

There are far too many references; it is impossible to check which are anecdotal and which are authoritative.

So far, I'm simply trying to clean up. Whether a readable article can result is a good question; would Religion Editors please look at this? Howard C. Berkowitz 16:15, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

1. Sorry, but your attempt to clean up the reference did not make it better. Andries 21:21, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

2. I do not feel like removing references only because it is too much work for you to check each of them. (Howard Murphet should be removed as a reference, because his books are written from the view point of a gullible devotee) Andries 21:21, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

3 After re-reading it, I admit that readability is a problem and I will see what I can do. Andries 21:24, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I didn't remove any actual references. I removed repetitions of the same reference, sometimes on every other line of a lists. If a reference is a good source, it is not necessary to have three or four supporting references on a single sentence.

Someone being a gullible devotee, under CZ: Neutrality Policy, is not reason to remove him. The devotees as well as the critics belong in a neutral article.

Most of what I did was get quotes out of references, and into the mainline text. It is extremely difficult to assess the significance of a quote if it's in a footnote, because it cannot easily be compared with associated text. If the quote is important enough to be in the article, it need not be in a footnote, unless it is purely a definition or other neutral supporting information. Howard C. Berkowitz 22:01, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Who is the Topic Informant? Why so much Wikipedia style still here?

I haven't gotten out all the FACT templates.

There is overwhelming micro-level citing, characteristic of WP. More synthesis is needed; it's very hard to follow this article. Howard C. Berkowitz 19:11, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

What is "micro-level citing"? What parts are hard to follow? The anthropologist Lawrence Babb made more generalized statements about SSB and the impossibility of a biography as we know it. I will add more by him. Andries 21:13, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I can't yet say what parts are hard to follow, because right now, the article gives the impression of a massive block of text, with many quotations and little explanation. I suggest that the article will be improved by removing text, not adding it.

If there is significant additional detail, perhaps it belongs in a subarticle. The blocks of text here are huge; as it was, I inserted some paragraph breaks and some subheadings. Observe that the edit software is giving warnings about the size of the article — even if it doesn't actually break browsers, that's a good suggestion to consider splitting things into subarticles. I often start doing so when I see that warning.

Micro-level citing is having citations, or even worse multiple citations, at the sentence-by-sentence level. It is not have an explicit citation to Babb, without a page reference for virtually every other line of a list; Babb can be cited at the beginning and only the exceptions given.

If a biography is impossible, what is the article trying to accomplish? Howard C. Berkowitz 22:01, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

This biography though an impossibility as explicitly described by Babb is trying to accomplish the same as biographies for Jesus, and Buddha; a biography based on reliable sources as we know is impossible, but they still have entries in encyclopedias. Andries 07:14, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I converted the subsequent Babb/Redemption citations so the identical full citation doesn't appear every time. It doesn't look pretty in the formatted footnotes, but is it really necessary to cite Babb several times in individual lines of a list, rather than Babb for the list as a whole, which would make things look much better? Howard C. Berkowitz 23:18, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Some CZ technical citation information

We prefer the inline citation form, to which I am converting reference.

In such form, it isn't necessary to say "available online"; the existence of a URL establishes that.

There is a difference from Wikipedia: if you use the format <ref name=Blitz />, the <ref name=Blitz>{{citation... has to come before the former type of referencing, or you'll get blank citations. Howard C. Berkowitz 22:20, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

To Both Howard and Andries from a Constable

Hi, Gentlemen!

I see that there are have some major changes here in the numbers of bytes in the article, first one way and then the other, and then back again, and so forth. I know that both of you are acting in good faith, but before it goes any further, let me make a couple of points:

1.) This is not Wikipedia, we do not revert our versions of an article back and forth until one or the other quits from exhaustion.

2.) Any of us are free to edit without explanations to the others except for the courtesy of putting at least brief justifications in the Subject box.

3.) BUT, none of us are free to make MAJOR edits of a mass of material without first opening a discussion on this page to clearly outline just what he is going to do and why. And then WAITING for a response from the other party.

4.) I personally have never heard of Sathya Sai Baba, I have no interest at all in learning about him (or her, if that is the case), and I certainly do not intend to read this lengthy article with its copious footnotes in order to acquaint myself with the pros and cons of whatever editing conflicts are currently going on.

5.) Just for ease of editing, as per Occam's Razor, let's take the present version (by Howard), which is considerably shorter than the older one, and use that for the basis of further discussion.

6.) Andres -- if you feel that the 20,000 bytes that Howard deleted should be restored, kindly write a detailed explanation here in the Talk page about why this should be done. Please do not restore anything until you and Howard (and anyone else who is interested) have agreed on what should be done.

7.) Howard -- if you want to continue to make MINOR editing changes and formatting, go ahead. But be sure to put an adequate explanation in the Subject box for EACH edit. NOTE: just writing: "deleted footnote" is not an explanation. Tell us *why* you deleted that particular footnote.

Thanks! Hayford Peirce 23:18, 16 February 2009 (UTC) Constable

It appears the 20,000 bytes were primarily the External Links (see other) and Bibliography, which I had already moved to a subpage per CZ conventions.

Hayford, I am not actually deleting any content. I don't know anything about the subject; I have purely been copy editing and organizing so I can read about the subject.

What I am doing is when there are 10 or more identical full footnotes, I've been substituting the short form (i.e., rather than <ref>Smithxxx</ref>, <name ref=Smith>{{citation xxx}}</ref> followed by <name = Smith />.

In some cases, where Smith is cited three times in the same line of a bulleted list, are three cites really necessary? Indeed, if Smith (actually Babb) is the source for almost every item in the list, a simple Smith after the colon introducing the list would make it much easier to read.

Also, if a source is good, there isn't a need to put three sources on the same sentence — especially when those three sources repeat every few sentences.

I have been pulling quotations out of footnotes, which, in any event, were not in inline cite form, and converting them to blockquotes so they can be read in context. Again, I haven't been deleting other than redundant bibliographic information.

We aren't WP and it's not necessary to keep citing every few words. Right now, until I can format things more readably, I really don't have much opinion on content. Andres, if you aren't familiar with CZ formatting conventions, why not let me convert and edit, and take out the WP-specific/WP-convention material? Howard C. Berkowitz 00:18, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi, Howard, thanks for the very clear explanation of what you've been doing. It all sounds pretty reasonable to me -- and necessary, for that matter, to turn it into an acceptable article. Thanks for all the effort that goes into this tedious work! I'm glad that all the BIG deleted stuff was just redundancies.... Hayford Peirce 01:19, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

a personal opinion about the lede paragraph

It's terrible. What a disjointed mess! Hayford Peirce 02:03, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, I don't really know what this article is trying to tell me. There's a huge amount of content, but without much context. There's some commentary about cults and controversy, but I can't extract significance. Speeches by people pro and con aren't quite the same thing as an article-style neutral presentation of positions.

I do have to note that there were comments about improvement from April 2007. It's not clear how much change there was from a Wikipedia article, and whether the article meets th retention requirements. Whether or not that can be clear after the citation cleanup (still unfinished) is not a call I want to make. Howard C. Berkowitz 02:24, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Apparently it was Andries who brought it in from WP a couple of years ago and essentially dumped it here. Now you, and maybe he, are doing a clean-up. There's no question but that it should be rewritten. En principe Andries ought to do it, since he's the person interested in this topic. But if *he* doesn't, then anyone else is free to edit it, and rewrite it, so that the thing makes sense and reads smoothly. And actually has a theme. Hayford Peirce 03:27, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I am motivated and have the sources (liteature) for a major rewrite. I can see the readability problems (lack of synthesis and lack of context). Andries 07:21, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

No, I don't think I'm interested enough in the subject to spend more time on it. Before, I couldn't even really get a sense what it was about. I cleaned it up enough to see that it's a possibly hostile article on a possible cult, but it's not a subject of much interest. The question is whether it has been sufficiently modified from WP to warrant keeping, given it's this old and has not been cleaned up. Howard C. Berkowitz 03:49, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I thought I had cleaned it up. Andries 07:37, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I looked through a couple of sections and saw a wikipedia {{merge}} template and a few {{fact}} templates, neither of which are used at citizendium. The references are also a problem. The reference list at the bottom has many repeats and there is an over referencing problem. One list I saw had a reference for every line and it was the same reference each time. One reference for the whole list is a better strategy. Likewise i saw two concurrent sentences with the same ref a few times; one is better. Chris Day 13:20, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Respectfully, Andries, this is a collaborative writing environment. It can't be your call only if an article is cleaned up. As Chris has mentioned, go through and cut back the references to when they are necessary; use a single reference for as section. Not every phrase or sentence needs a citation, and they certainly don't need multiple citations in support of the same point. This is, in part, a pure readability issue; when there are so many footnotes it's hard to read, especially when one looks down at the references are cleaned up/

Look at the level of relevance and detail. Why is it important that he uses a wheelchair? What is the key point of all the different recounting and arguments of a cobra at his birth? Perhaps some of that should go into a subarticle about cultural significance of cobras, but, on reading through all that, I get buried in detail about the different cobra stories, assume it means the birth was considered unusual, but am not sure in what way. This isn't a trial with disputing witnesses; an article puts the parties, not necessarily their detail, in context

There is much detail about legal actions, but it's rather hard to isolate what, if anything, was actually decided.

Less may be more. Howard C. Berkowitz 17:53, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Too much cobra, yes, I can understand your point. SSB said that he will die as a young man, so the wheelchair is relevant. (Babb) Andries 21:26, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Here is an example of too much detail. I removed a reference to him being the subject of newspaper articles. Why is that important? Respectfully, if he was not, why on earth would be writing about him at citizendium? Chris Day 19:34, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

(undent) More quick trimming. Judgmental comments about "critical formal followers", Salon's description of itself,

The text starting "According to the Sathya Sai Organization, there are an estimated 1,200 Sathya Sai Baba Centers in 130 countries world-wide..." needs to be broken out, so the actual estimates are in the mainline text and have one, and only one, reference.

This is an English language encyclopedia. Be sure there are translations of all Dutch references; the Dutch version isn't needed.

I have taken out general information, such as Chennai formerly being known as Madras, and put that into a separate, linked "lemma" or minimal article. Obviously, the Chennai article should be expanded.

It isn't necessary to give the prior names of organizations, such as what Educare was previously called. In some cases, the "formerly" is confusing: Shivraj V. Patil (Member of Parliament, India; Formerly of the Lok Sabha & Union Minister); I have no idea what the Lok Sabha & Union Minister means, or if he was affiliated with something called Lok Sabha and also was a Union Minister for some government body.

Watch the use of "follower", "skeptic", and like terms; they can give a judgmental sense. I substituted "his organization" for "Sai Baba's followers ", which I consider more neutral. It is often unclear "followers", given as a source, refer to an official position or not. Howard C. Berkowitz 20:05, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I appreciate your efforts, but, again, I will do a major rewrite (partially because I am frustrated by the incompetency of the editors at Wikipedia). So I do not think that it is a good idea to spend much effort improving this version. (Btw, I have major problems with the different citation style and I am not sure whether I agree. It has been my experience in Wikipedia again and again that there is good reason for microcitation and I think this is the case for any large collaborative encyclopedia. Nevertheless it may not matter much after the major rewrite. ) Andries 21:13, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, if you're going to do a "major rewrite", and don't think it's worth "improving this version", then why shouldn't we just delete it? In any case, CZ has its own way of doing some things, and Howard is pretty close to being our leading footnote expert, so I think we better do it his way, particularly if Chris is *also* cleaning up a lot of these citations. Hayford Peirce 21:33, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

(Edit conflict; not responding specifically to Hayford) One thought: there's no definition for this article. It would be useful to try to write 100 neutral words on the subject; it might help others. Frankly, I don't really have a sense of what the articl is telling me other than there is a controversial religious leader in India. The lede should make the key points, not leap into details.

Without making a formal statement of policy, I believe that there is a strong opposition to microcitation here, certainly repetitive microcitation. One of the assumptions of CZ is that things are at least reviewed by experts, but also that it is not necessary to cite detailed information in the field.

As an example, one of my most "micro-cited" articles in Ho Chi Minh, but you will find that most references eventually go to primary documents. In many cases, while I might have given, at first, a cite to Duiker or Quinn-Judge or other serious book, that was done when I had only Google Books access and thus no access to endnotes. As I get the specific books, I add primary source detail. This, however, is very different than citing journalistic accounts.

If you feel a major rewrite is needed, it may be wise to move this version to a sandbox in your userspace and make the corrections there. As long as it is in mainspace, it is fair for others to edit. Nevertheless, I am reasonably confident that other Citizens will remove microcitations. You may make suggestions and proposals about what you like, but no article is likely to be able to retain a different citation style because one person likes them. It's not "owned" by any one author when it's not in a sandbox.

As to the wheelchair, there is no particular correlation between longevity and mobility impairments. There are a great many active and elderly people who use wheelchairs who would be rather offended to say that wheelchair use implies anything more than a mobility impairment. Ever seen a wheelchair basketball game or competition wheelchair racing?

If there is relevant information that would affect his lifespan, include it, but there is no medical reason to assume wheelchair use, without details of why it is necessary and how the mobility impairment affects overall physical health, has anything to do with longevity. Howard C. Berkowitz 21:40, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

A local 60 year old advocate for the disabled died recently in a car accident. He had been in a wheel chair for 40 years. Chris Day 21:43, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Wheelchair is relevant because SSB said that he would die with the body of a young man at the age of 95 (96 according to Indian counting). Nevertheless, I can understand that the relevancy is not so clear for the average reader so I removed it. Andries 21:54, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

On the other hand, guys, let's be fair about this: Baba is apparently a prominent person in India. FDR was a prominent person in the USA. Raymond Burr was a prominent American actor for a while. Isn't is fair to note that the two latter people used wheelchairs for at least part of their lives? Not because it PROVES anything, just because MOST presidents and actors DON'T use wheelchairs, and that therefore it is a more interesting factoid that saying, for instance, that they had red hair or wore glasses. In fact, for Baba, all we have to say is, "In spite of being confined to a wheelchair for x number of years, he has blah blah blah...." Hayford Peirce 21:58, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

It all comes down to context. I think there are quite a few points in the article where they appear to be just thrown in. Almost a grab bag of information. It makes for chaotic reading and ruins the narrative. A rewrite would solve many of these issues, I'm sure. Chris Day 22:00, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I tried to add more context in the summary/intro. Almost all is sourced to Babb. I hope it makes things a lot clearer . Andries 22:16, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Let me say that I never heard of Baba before seeing this article, and have no opinion on him. Nevertheless, the lede gives the sense of an article critical of him. May I suggest you look at homeopathy? It's fair to say, I believe, that Chris and I have very little faith in the therapeutic efficacy of homeopathy, but we hammered at the lede until both the homeopaths and the medical scientists agreed it was reasonably neutral — neither are really happy with it, which often means something is fairly neutral.

If Babb is the primary source, why is Babb important and authoritative? Perhaps an article on Babb would add important context. Howard C. Berkowitz 22:28, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Both his books were published by university presses (oxford University press & University of California press). He wrote that the studied the movement personally in Delhi or new Delhi. I do not have enough information to write his biography. Andries 22:35, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Here is the lead as I wrote (I omitted the parts that were left over from cleaning up the references). I deny that it is overly critical. On the contrary, think that the lead should be more critical and more informative: it should mention why he is controversial i.e. allegations of false miracles and sexual abuse.

"Sathya Sai Baba (1926-), born Sathyanarayana,[1][2] with the family name of Ratnakaram and membership in the Raju caste [3]He is a controversial South Indian guru, religious leader, and orator, often described as a "godman".[4] and a miracle worker.[5] [6]

Sathya Sai Baba presents his teachings as universal, as is often the case in neo-Hindu movements, though they are deeply and authentically Hindu. He differs from most other gurus by his unambiguous and explicit claims of personal divinity, to be more precise, he claims to be a full avatar (incarnation) of the Hindu deities Shiva and Shakti with the aim of restoring dharma (righteousness). As a type, he is however not unique: there are many godmen who are far less famous and successful than he. In addition, his followers in India tend to come for the middle class and higher class and this added to his fame. Like other godmen his appeal comes from his charisma, his claims of miracles and paranormal capabilities and not so much from his parampara (guru lineage), though he has a lineage of sorts through his claim to a be a reincarnation the popular fakir Shirdi Sai Baba (1857?-1918) whose name he took. The populair and much revered Shirdi Sai Baba had both Muslim as well as Hindu traits and followers.

According to the Sathya Sai Organization, there are an estimated 1,200 Sathya Sai Baba Centers in 130 countries world-wide.[11] The number of Sathya Sai Baba adherents is estimated sometimes as around 6 million, and followers cite "50 to 100 million".[12]"

Andries 22:42, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Neutrality in leads

I believe it is fair to say, under CZ: Neutrality Policy, not simply why he is criticized, but why his followers follow. Again, look at homeopathy.

May I suggest that your denying that it isn't critical doesn't change that someone with no exposure to the subject finds it critical, emphasizing allegations?

Do you believe that critical equates to neutral? Howard C. Berkowitz 23:19, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

The only mentioning of allegations in the lead is that SSB is controversial, (the rest does not belong in the lead but is left over from an attempt to clean up the references) so no, I do not think that it will be found critical. Also, it tries to explain why followers follow SSB "his appeal comes from his charisma, his claims of miracles and paranormal capabilities and not so much from his parampara (guru lineage)", though this is a complex (often subconcious) mix of motives and considerations. (See theories of religion), so this cannot be explained in the lead. Third, the press (BBC, Times) has predominantly reported critical to extremely critical about SSB and if this is not reflected in the lead then the reader may be misled. As an analogy Holocaust denial should be treated critically, even in the lead, because the reputable sources have treated Holocaust denial very critically. Andries 21:40, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Given I had never heard of SSB before this article, I hardly think that Holocaust denial is a fair analogy. On the one hand, we have international demonstrations such as that of the International Military Tribunal (Nuremberg) of Holocaustic genocide; the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia; the International Criminal Court proceedings for Rwanda and other countries. Several countries have criminalized Holocaust denial.

Are you suggesting that a similar standard of evidence exists for SSB? The BBC and the Times are not, when last I looked, judicial organizations, and, while reputable news organizations, are far different in authority than a formal legal proceeding. What international tribunal has made such a determination? If not, I suggest that this is not a reasonable analogy and you cannot justify writing a critical article about this person. Frankly, I haven't even figured out if he has been convicted of anything. Howard C. Berkowitz 21:57, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

The lead should reflect what reputable sources have stated and they reported about him critically to extremely critical. Andries 22:03, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Palmer W., Norris Baba's World: A Global Guru and his Movement in the book Gurus in America edited by Thomas A. Forsthoefel & Cynthia Ann Humes, published by SUNY Press, 2005 ISBN 079146573X, 9780791465738, page 117 "As observers also report, given the strong following Baba has among prominent and national civic leaders in India, it is extremely unlikely that a case against Baba would be heard there or that he wouold be extradited to face charges elsewhere."Andries 22:06, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Palmer W., Norris Baba's World: A Global Guru and his Movement in the book Gurus in America edited by Thomas A. Forsthoefel & Cynthia Ann Humes, published by SUNY Press, 2005 ISBN 079146573X, 9780791465738, page 119 "Many prominent persons in India are devotees of Satya Sai Baba and he is also instrumental to many politicians in securing votes, Baba is accordingly largely left alone by the government and, therefore, relatively free from prosecution for any alleged offense related over the Internet, which has the twin effects of leaving his detractors angry about the lack of due process and his proponents angry about unsubstantiated libel without recourse."Andries 22:06, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I repeat: books and newspapers are not legal proceedings. It is not the responsibility of Citizendium to take up a cause that is not taken up in a country. As with homeopathy, the lead should reflect, fairly, the position of the proponents and opponents of the position. There are times that I find the CZ neutrality policy being a bit idealistic, but this doesn't seem to be one of them. "Observers" and "many prominent persons", cited by a third party are not witnesses under oath. In the case of alternative medicine, there are at least observational studies by reasonably impartial observers. Do consider that your presentation may be coming across as representing one side.

Are there no reputable sources that have anything positive to say about Baba? Howard C. Berkowitz 22:13, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

It is true that the Sathya Sai Baba movement is involved in a lot of charity~projects, though, I think unfairly belittled by many critics and skeptics. The BBC reported about this too. Andries 22:16, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Again, I strongly disagree that the lead in its present form (after the left overs from the references are cleaned up) is overly negative and critical. It is also a matter of taste and we could debate about this endlessly and most probably fruitlessly. 22:20, 18 February 2009 (UTC)