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==Welcome!==
#REDIRECT [[User:Russell D. Jones/Talk]]
{{Getting Started}}
'''Welcome to the ''Citizendium!'''''  We hope you will contribute [[CZ:Be Bold|boldly]] and well.  You'll probably want to know [[CZ:The Author Role|how to get started as an author]].  Just look at [[CZ:Getting Started]] for other helpful "startup" links, and [[CZ:Home]] for the top menu of community pages.  Be sure to stay abreast of events via [https://lists.purdue.edu/mailman/listinfo/citizendium-l the Citizendium-L (broadcast) mailing list] (do join!) and [http://blog.citizendium.org the blog].  Please also join the [[CZ:Mailing lists|workgroup mailing list(s)]] that concern your particular interests.  You can test out [[CZ:How to edit an article|editing]] in the [[CZ:Sandbox|sandbox]] if you'd like.  If you need help to get going, the [http://forum.citizendium.org/ forums] is one option.  That's also where we discuss policy and proposals.  You can ask any [[:Category:CZ Constables|constable]] for help, too.  Me, for instance!  Just put a note on their "talk" page.  Again, welcome and have fun! [[User:Dan Nachbar|Dan Nachbar]] 14:07, 17 November 2007 (CST)
 
{{ewelcome}} --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 21:45, 19 February 2008 (CST)
 
== Welcome and thanks ==
I'm just spending some time this morning thanking the newer/returned people who did weekend wiki work.  So, thanks, nice to have you here! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 08:17, 19 November 2007 (CST)
 
== Metadata ==
(In response to [[User_talk:Robert_W_King/Archive_2#Vanderlip_and_Metadata|this post]]):
 
Yep, that's great!  Just remember, the pagename is the actual name of the page (should be the same as the URL and in the wiki) and abc is just how it's categorized by.  Also, there is no precedence for categories (yet) so whatever order you wish to put them in does not affect which workgroups get priority (if any really).  --[[User:Robert W King|Robert W King]] 16:04, 19 November 2007 (CST)
 
== welcome back! ==
 
Welcome back! two items:
# can we make you an editor? CZ policy requires three editors approve history articles and the others have vanished on us so we need your help.
# how can we link CZ with the [http://historywiki.mich.edu EMU History Wiki] ?? have you seen our Eduzendium project? see http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/CZ:Citizendium_Press_Releases/Jan242008
We'd love to have your students write CZ articles. [[User:Richard Jensen|Richard Jensen]] 16:18, 18 February 2008 (CST)
:My fear is <!--And I've told Larry this-->that I'd be just another absentee editor.  I'm not here enough to be doing an editor's job.  How dire is the situation?  Are you the only historian/editor? [[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 20:55, 18 February 2008 (CST)
::in practice, yes...alas. (N=15 nominally) dire.  But the excitement is to get students to work.  I'm retired but next week will be talking to a VPAA about my teaching a historiography course in which the kids write CZ articles. [[User:Richard Jensen|Richard Jensen]] 23:00, 18 February 2008 (CST)
:::I don't mean to eavesdrop exactly, but Richard, the latter is great news!  I hope you can swing it. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 23:06, 18 February 2008 (CST)
::::Sure, I'll apply.
:::::Hey great! we'll try not to seize your weekends and summer vacations. :) [[User:Richard Jensen|Richard Jensen]] 20:31, 19 February 2008 (CST)
::::::Yes, great, nice to have you on board, Russell! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 22:00, 19 February 2008 (CST)
 
== Jefferson & Channing==
 
The debate subpage is a valuable innovation in CZ! [[User:Richard Jensen|Richard Jensen]] 17:01, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:It was already there.  It was an unused subpage category.  I just don't get where Channing is critical of Jefferson, though.  I didn't see it in the couple chapters that I read.--[[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 17:34, 23 February 2008 (CST)
::Channing ridicules Jefferson's contempt for the navy. pp36-7 [[User:Richard Jensen|Richard Jensen]] 18:48, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:::I still don't see it.  Channing is matter of fact.  He explains Jefferson's attempt to entice Samuel Smith to become Secy of Navy (from which comes the oft-reproduce quote about laying up the fleet in the Potomac River), and then the appointment Robert Smith.  He concludes his introductory paragraph, "[http://books.google.com/books?id=ZBYOAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA37&dq=%22Jefferson+and+Gallatin+were+certainly+most+desirous%22&num=30&as_brr=0&ei=s8rAR5K2NoHgiQGOz5ixCA Jefferson and Gallatin were certainly most desirous to limit naval expenditure in every possible way but they reckoned without the North African pirates.  Indeed instead of laying up the ships high and dry on the shore they were obliged to send fleet after fleet to the Mediterranean and to build new vessels better suited for work in those waters]" (37).  I don't see ridicule unless one reads that paragraph as just dripping with sarcasm. --[[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 19:41, 23 February 2008 (CST)
::Channing says it reminds one of Queen Elizabeth who objected to letting the fleet sail because it might damage their paint. TJ and Gallatin hated the navy and wanted to put it in storage (and TJ even joking that it would be destroyed by their "plunderers"][[User:Richard Jensen|Richard Jensen]] 19:48, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:::Okay, but that's not exactly what Channing writes.  And really, ER has a point.  They were nicely painted ships.  Jones.
 
== Definitions updates==
Russel, I replied with the following on your Forum question:
 
Russel, the Need Def page will not update for an article with a new definition until the corresponding Talk page has been edited and saved.  You might have noticed that I have lots of "blank line for Need Def" updates on every page to which I add a new definition.
 
So, update the Talk page with a blank line or even just a space, save the edit.  Then refresh the Need Def page and you should see
the article name now removed from the list.  13:04, 15 December 2008 [[User:David E. Volk|David E. Volk]]
 
:David, this is not an elegant solution.  There are 784 pages in the history work group that are so tagged.  I don't think that this two step process of (1) writing the definition and then (2) editing the talk page just in order to update the tag is efficient.  I didn't see anywhere that this was explained, either.  And, no, I didn't see your "blank line" anywhere.  I'm just inclined to ignore the tag.  Thanks. Jones.  18:49, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 
== Just wondering... ==
 
Did you get a splinter Lodged in your typing finger?
 
You are right to differentiate. I've put up a question on the forum; I'm not sure if we have clear copyediting standards for when to use polynomials. There's a main article on [[George Patton]], which refers to the best-known G.S. Patton Jr (comma there?); I haven't had need yet to refer to G.S. Patton III in Vietnam, but sooner or later... [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 22:57, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
:Since the 14th edition (and maybe earlier), the Chicago Style has recommended dropping the use of commas in names ("John Quincy Adams Jr." not "John Quincy Adams, Jr.").  I'll look at the forum. [[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 00:09, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
::Grrr. Another step in the downward path to utter intellectual degeneration. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 00:23, 28 December 2008 (UTC), Jr.
:::Cheer up Hayford, we still use commas for nonrestrictive adverbial clauses and introductory participial phrases. [[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 00:59, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Here are the relevant rules.
*[http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/ch06/ch06_toc.html ''Chicago Manual of Style'', 15th ed., §6.49]; 14th ed., §6.53.
*http://www.middlebury.edu/administration/communications/info/jr.htm
Contrarily, see Kenneth G. Wilson, ''[http://www.bartleby.com/68/79/5379.html The Columbia Guide to Standard American English]'' (Columbia, 1993).
::::I'm a Fowler's ''Modern English Usage'', Second Edition, guy myself. (I note that my ''New York Times Manual of Style'' also omits the comma.  No wonder I don't use it....) [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 16:11, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::Well ''The Times'' is a newspaper, and newspapers are notorious for poor grammar because proper grammar (as well as proper usage) is expensive in terms of column space and ink.  Newspaper publishers always know that what their journalists write doesn't ring the cash register bells as quickly as advertisers do.  And if it comes down to a choice between proper English and advertising space, guess which side wins.  So, for me, a newspaper style guide is a better doorstop than a style manual.  -- Jones.
 
== Vision ... blurring ... sight ... fading ==
I started poking around regarding models and found [[CZ:NOT]].  I don't know.  Everything that I've put up here, and at WP, has been original research (I'd never admit that over there, though).  Everything I write comes from my own head.  Some of it is synthesized, but most of it is me attempting to understand things.  I write to understand.  I've been thinking about writing a series on railroad history, but too many articles would be really short stubs, definitions mostly.  Not allowed [[Welcome_to_Citizendium|here]], but necessary for building comprehension and understanding a complex topic.  I'm not really sold on the encyclopedia ideal.  WP wasn't an encyclopedia; it was more like an "academic simulation;" The editor of the ''Encyclopedia Britannica'' called WP the "encyclopedia game."  The more I think about this, the blurrier it gets.  [[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 15:56, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
:You need to talk to Howard.  We have been discussing the idea of allowing very short articles as opposed to stubs.  For some topics only a small amount is needed to be complete. I think he has a good point and we have been thinking how to fold this into the current system.  Certainly such articles would be useful for related articles subpages to give context to longer articles. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 16:15, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
::Don't over-intellectualize things to the point where utter paralysis sets in.  Just write what you want, in a more or less encyclopediac way, and let, if necessary, other people have at it with axes and knives and forks and screwdrivers and other tools to turn it into something that Larry can be proud of. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 16:18, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
:::Also, it depends on what you mean by "short" -- how short is "short". If you wrote: "The '''Rock Island Line''' is a mighty good line." as an entire article, that would probably be too short. If you added a couple of more sentences to it, and maybe hummed a couple of bars, that ought to be OK. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 16:22, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
:It's not the stubs I'm worried about; I'm experienced enough here to [[Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle|know to just type]].  It's more [[CZ Talk:Topic Choice|the original research angle]].  I don't think we're writing an encyclopedia.  [[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 16:30, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
 
 
::Hayford's advice is correct.  We will not throw out the baby with the bathwater.  I'm pretty sure we're saner than that. I'll leave a note for Howard to join here as i cannot find where he outlined his need for short articles, but it sounded similar to yours. With respect to OR are you sure it is not just synthesis?  Clearly a writer has to decide the angle and resources that will be included, especially for history.  Is that OR?  Why don't you write some examples and it will be easier to discuss the content with regard to OR. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 16:38, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
 
:::I wouldn't worry about original research.  Most of the more active contributors do it all the time.  It just needs to be kept within the bounds of what would be accepted in the discipline, be supported, and be balanced.  The Wikipedia original research rules, which were simply grandfathered in here in a lot of ways, are designed to keep me from writing an article about guinea pigs that says their diet consists primarily of their own poop because mine ate his all the time when I was little. --[[User:Joe Quick|Joe Quick]] 16:44, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
:Yes, Joe, that's my point. "Most of the more active contributors do it all the time."  See my [[Henry Adams]].  Synthesized, to be sure, but also my original take on H.A. (and unfinished).  I prefer what we do here to writing an encyclopedia (I've written "real" encyclopedia articles). [[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 18:24, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
 
::::If we start *really* worrying about original research, we're gonna end up like WP, in which some articles now, as far as I can tell, either have a footnote on every word or a "citation needed" template. In that way lies total madness. We ought to be able to write: "Winston Churchill was a British statesman" without having 4 footnotes on it to prove that we know what we're talking about. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 16:52, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
 
:::::I cannot resist, apropos screwdrivers, mentioning my regret that over the years, I lost my copy of the General Telephone & Electronics Practice, "Screwdriver: theory of operation, use, and maintenance."
 
:::::The short article discussion started in a wide-ranging discussion at [[CZ Talk: Usability]].  At [[User: Howard C. Berkowitz/Strong Articles]], there are notes toward a first proposal for the non-orphaning policy, but it does ''not'' include what Chris and I have called the "lemma" problem because we didn't a good handle, and Larry wanted an actionable proposal. 
 
:::::If we can get a handle, great! I'd much rather see the proposal be submitted with it than without it. While at some levels it complicates things, I'm not convinced that the overhead of clusters for everything may not be a deterrent to the main goal of encouraging linking.
 
:::::It's not just an issue of original research, but also original synthesis. The latter, when it is a neutral guide of how to approach a complex subject, certainly can be peer reviewed here, assuming an adequate number of peers. A CZ...ummm..."how to approach a subject article" really can't be outside-reviewed or depend on external sources, as much of it is specific to navigating CZ, organizing subarticles, etc.
 
:::::At least in Internet engineering, there are quite standard documents, such as "framework" complementing "architecture", and "applicability statement" complementing detailed specification (think subarticle) that are considered required parts of the process. The set of documents that define the Internet's mechanisms aren't exactly an encyclopedia, but they also differ from some less-implementable but more formal standards. They are, however, the result of an intense collaborative process, although the term "full-contact design review" is sometimes considered apt. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 17:48, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
 
::::::I agree with what others have said above--don't worry about original research.  Or, if you want, give us (or just me, if you want) an example of an article, or some text, you think is original research, and why you think it's original research.  The notion of original research is admittedly vague, especially when it comes to things like historical analysis.  It may or may not help to look at this [[CZ_Talk:Original_Research_Policy#On_the_notion_of_original_research|essay-in-development]] about original research, and the fact that original research policy here is based on the Statement of Fundamental Policies line stating, that our articles are "based on common experience, published, credible research, and expert opinion."  This is what [[CZ:Approval Standards]] says: "Articles should be aimed to serve as excellent encyclopedia articles, and thus are summations of what is known about a topic. Hence, while articles may sum up their topics in novel ways, they should not do so in ways that imply new theories or analyses that in academic contexts would require peer review for publishing. In other words, they should not contain original research or observations."  Well...? --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 17:53, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
::On this I would add that CZ is published and it is peer-reviewed by our experts in their fields; so is [[CZ:Approval Standards]] circular?  Meaning: we can (should?) include O.R. because we vet it?  [[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 18:24, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
:::Well, I'll bite...we shouldn't, because we don't vet it, or not properly.  We are set up to vet text ''qua'' encyclopedia articles.  We are not set up to vet text for the original research it contains.  There ''is'' a difference.
:::Still, Russell, I again would say: don't worry about it right now, unless you have some specific cases you want to point out. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 18:49, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
 
== Clerk Maxwell ==
 
Could you please have a look at [[Clerk Maxwell]] and see if it is "approvable" from the point of view of an historian? Thank you.--[[User:Paul Wormer|Paul Wormer]] 13:10, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
 
:Russell, I saw your remarks, and I would prefer that you '''im'''prove the article rather than '''app'''rove it.  It is true that a single editor is not allowed to approve it, after (s)he worked on it, but three editors can. So after you've improved it, you, I, and a third (probably a physicist) can approve it. I'm sure we will find a third person, so please go ahead and change [[Clerk Maxwell]] to your liking.
 
:With regard to the formulas at the end: Maxwell's paper gives them, but in a notation that is not easily recognizable to the modern physicist; so I translated Maxwell's math into modern notation. Because I myself find this interesting and as I'm just an ordinary scientist, I thought that perhaps more people may find it interesting.--[[User:Paul Wormer|Paul Wormer]] 07:06, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 
::Okay.  I wanted to tinker with it.  My experience with the approval process is limited.  In the past though, [[Template:Adams-On%C3%ADs_Treaty/Metadata | articles have been approved with a single editor]].  So, improve it I will.  >>> [[User:Russell D. Jones|Jones]] 08:06, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 
:::I'm done with it. Please take a look. Thanks! --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 10:40, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 
== John Logie Baird ==
 
What do you think about approving the article on [[John Logie Baird]]?  The original author is no longer active, but I would be happy to look into any adjustments to style or scope or whatever if you feel they are needed. --[[User:Joe Quick|Joe Quick]] 16:50, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
:Okay, the one reservation I have is that some claims are made (e.g., that Baird's son made some comment, etc.) which are not referenced.  To run that down will require some research.  Other than that, I think it is a well developed article and should be approved.  Do you want to move it, or are you asking me to do that?  Don't we need three editors for approval?
:I also think that we should get moving on Chris's proposal for subcategories as the Baird article clearly belongs in a history of technology subcategory.  Maxwell belongs in a history of science subcategory.  [[User:Russell D. Jones|Jones]] 17:26, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
::I'm not an editor, so you'd need to nominate the article. 
::Knowing the quality of work that Russell Potter did while he was here, I trust that the claims in this article are well founded, but I agree that it is under-referenced in places.  Probably, most of the article is supported by the books listed in the bibliography subpage, but I really don't have time to read all of them.  I'll see if I can dig up sources using Google books and Amazon book preview searches or peer reviewed articles. --[[User:Joe Quick|Joe Quick]] 15:33, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
:::I rewrote the "Legacy" section, which was left over from the Wikipedia skeleton that the original CZ authors started with and which struck me as rather amateurish.  The section isn't long, but I think it makes the article feel a bit more relevant to the present.  Minor adjustments will probably continue right up until the approval deadline, but since this change was more substantial, you might want to update the version in the Toapprove section of the metadata template. --[[User:Joe Quick|Joe Quick]] 18:05, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
:::Done--[[User:Russell D. Jones|Jones]] 19:05, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
 
== Co-nominated [[James Clerk Maxwell]] for approval ==
 
Russell, now that Joe Quick added the Engineering workgroup as a category in the Metadata template, I have signed the template as a co-nominator. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 04:09, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 
== subgroups ==
 
It's currently here [[CZ:Proposals/New]]. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 13:48, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
:Duh, I've been there before! Jones. 13:57, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
::I need an explanation of the proposal process. The ''Proposal'' (written by Chris) is now at the top of the 5  proposals in [[CZ:Proposals/Editorial Council]]. Does that mean it will be the first of the five to be voted upon? [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 16:54, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
:::No. None of the proposals in the queue are yet official resolutions.  None are yet before the Ed Council.  To be placed before the ed council, a page named "CZ: Editorial Council Resolution ####" must be created and the resolution announced on the ed-council mailing list.  Then "At that point, the Chair and Rules Committee, and the Council as a whole, take "ownership" of the resolution, and it is mostly out of your hands."  [[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 19:34, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
:::(Crap! Am I beginning to demonstrate too much knowledge of procedure?)
 
::Where does the [[CZ:Editorial Council Resolution Subgroups]] which you wrote fit into the proposal process? Which one does the Editorial Council actually vote on? The ''Proposal'' or the ''Resolution''? Please respond here on your Talk page which is now on my watchlist. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 16:54, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 
:::They way I see it is that the resolution asks the council to vote on the policy.  [[CZ:Editorial Council Resolution Subgroups]] is the draft resolution; when Chris, you, and I reach consensus, one of us will give it a number and put it before the ed council as an official resolution (i.e., move it to a page called "CZ:Editorial Council Resolution ####", see [[CZ:Editorial Council How to Make a Resolution]]).  [[CZ:Editorial Council Resolution Subgroups]] says that the council will vote on the policy as written on the [[CZ:Proposals/Subgroups]] page.  I did not include the policy in the resolution as no other resolution on which we have voted included a policy; it seemed that the resolution often points to the proposal.
:::&emsp;&emsp;This resolution does not require much in the way of implementation.  Chris already has the templates up and running, so ed council doesn't need to ask anything of him.  All we need is for citizens to start using the policy.  The problem I saw was "what is the policy?"  Some ed council resolutions had delegated the policy-writing portion to a committee or individual (see [[CZ:Editorial Council Resolution 0010]]).  Some had adopted the proposal page as policy ([[CZ:Editorial Council Resolution 0009]] resolved to make [[CZ:Proposals/Recipes Subpage and Accompanying Usage Policy]] accepted policy).  The recipe proposal page still talks about what "could" be done, there's still discussion there, etc., ''all of which'', according to the Ed Council resolution, ''is also accepted policy''.  The proposal system allows for discussion and debate about what the proposed policy should look like, how it will behave, what the unresolved problems are, etc.  All of that stuff should not be voted on by the ed council.  The ed council should vote on the policy, no?  So, what is the policy?  We could also propose that the ed council delegate the policy-writing to a committee or an individual and not vote on a policy; but doesn't that delegate away power that rightly belongs in the ed council? 
:::&emsp;&emsp;This may have been a long-winded answer.  [[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 19:29, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
::::Uh, I take that back, [[CZ:Editorial Council Resolution 0007]] included the policy voted upon. [[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 20:04, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 
:::::Hopefully, you won't mind some musings here about subgroups, chickens and eggs. On one level, I'd like to see a Military History group, to distinguish it from general military (and possibly, at some point, military technology). While things were generally chaotic at the Other Place, there was a fairly successful Military History Project; it was the vandalism, not the collaboration within the project, which made me give up. It's possible that a Military History subgroup might be a recruiting aid. On the other hand, I'm hesitant to start it if there is a lifetime on it, and, further, if there continue to be military-related articles that embarrass me unless I redo them.  If we can just get a couple of more contributors... [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 20:56, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 
:::::Howard, what do you mean by "''if there is a lifetime on it''"? [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 21:17, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

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