User talk:Larry Sanger: Difference between revisions

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==Thoughts on approval==
==Resolution 12==
Hi Larry, on the [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Template_talk:Subpages4&diff=100139323&oldid=100139295 Template talk:Subpages4] page I gave you a very brief comment with respect to subpage approval.  Even before subpages were official we were wrestling with this concept with respect to the gallery pages (see the [[CZ_Talk:Approval_Process#Moved_from_Approval_Announcenent_page|old discussion here]]).  Obviously the comments there do not take into account the more complex subpage grouping we are currently attempting simulate into the approval process, nevertheless, it is probably a good starting point.  Also note in that discussion the idea of an ''Approval area'' was being discussed in more detail. I still consider this an important tool for approval and it will be easier to implement with the new subpage environment. I will try and reformulate these ideas taking into account the new CZ environment.  [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 10:50, 26 July 2007 (CDT)
I'd like to cosponsor this along with David Volk, if that's okay. --[[User:Robert W King|Robert W King]] 18:32, 30 June 2008 (CDT)


Please do.  See the bottom of [[CZ:Subpage Pilot]]. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 14:11, 26 July 2007 (CDT)
This is always OK with me. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 23:48, 15 July 2008 (CDT)


==Curious: subpage name==
== Way to go ==
If Constellation and Compendium are too long ( See [[CZ:Name of subpage set?]]), why not collection? [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 10:53, 26 July 2007 (CDT)


I was writing too fast. "Compendium" is an unusual word and not instantly recognizable (even for people visiting "the Citizens' Compendium"), and has four syllables. "Collection" has the same number of letters but is simpler and has one less syllable.  FWIW. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 14:10, 26 July 2007 (CDT)
...with the Write-a-Thon blitz, thanks!


==small change==
Wonder if we can have a stub-a-thon/stubmania day sometime?


New bug?  [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=CZ:Editorial_Council_Resolution_0004&diff=next&oldid=100140287] I'm not sure what your exact issue is but one of the reason i noticed the clock problem was due to problems with seeing text and having to refresh pages. Here is an example of the problem.  I replied to one of your posts, probably almost immediately.  For some reason the server clocked my edit as being prior to yours, which was clearly not the case.  Consequently, my reply to your edit did not show up since your post was 'technically' the last from a chronological perspective. Interestingly my text could be viewed in edit mode but not in browse mode (not sure of the technical terms here).  i think if you get the clock fixed many of these problem will disappear.  [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 23:05, 26 July 2007 (CDT)
[[User:Aleta Curry|Aleta Curry]] 20:59, 2 July 2008 (CDT)
:[http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Talk:Main_Page&diff=next&oldid=100139407 Here is the diff]. Note that now the CZ server has them in the correct chronological order but the time stamp is still incorrect.  Mine is 17:38 where as the post of yours i was replying to is timestamped as 17:39. ??? [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 23:13, 26 July 2007 (CDT)
[[Image:ClockBug_SC.jpg|thumb|300px|Screen capture of page history]]
:[http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Talk:Global_warming&diff=next&oldid=100140512 Another example.] My minor change to the title 'controversy --> controversey two' was the last edit but the time stamp indicates differently.  If you look at the page history my edit appears to have been before Ben's.  In reality this was not the case. When edits are fast and furious this small time lag in time stamping creates a very confusing history of the edits. My conclusion is that not only is the clock wrong but by different amounts for each user. I know for me it is ten minutes off.  For Robert King it is six minutes off (see [[User_talk:Chris_Day#Timestamp_issues|discussion here]] for proof). [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 10:07, 27 July 2007 (CDT)
::Same issue yesterday here [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Stonewall_riots&diff=100139604&oldid=100139606] with this at [[Stonewall riots]]. Todd's edit was before mine but system has it round the other way. --[[User:Ian Johnson|Ian Johnson]] 10:17, 27 July 2007 (CDT)
FYI, I reported this to bugs@citizendium.org and cited this talk page section. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 10:24, 27 July 2007 (CDT)


Thanks, Chris--I reported it twice earlier, too.  Now let's see if anything happens... ;-) --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 10:31, 27 July 2007 (CDT)
It's not a bad idea... --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 23:48, 15 July 2008 (CDT)


Something getting done is dependent on someone with server access (Jason or Greg, both of whom have full time jobs and other committments) fixing the problem.  I've already partially identified the issue, and I'll reproduce my explanation here:
== Happy birthday to you, dear Larry ==


:I think that what's happening is that locke and reid (the two HTTP servers) have a time gap.  I already recommended using NTP (Network Time Protocol) to fix the clocks on the two. That should get them within a second of each other, if anyone (Greg or Jason) can do install it and set it up.
I started [[Maxwell equations]] earlier than I intended, in honor of your fortieth birthday. Happy birthday! --[[User:Paul Wormer|Paul Wormer]] 11:18, 15 July 2008 (CDT)


:The way Citizendium works, we have two servers which handle HTTP requests. This means that when you visit Citizendium, you get sent to one server or the other either randomly or based on whichever one is least busy.  That server then essentially acts as an intermediary between you and the database, grabbing what you need out of the database and presenting it as a web page, and taking what you submit and sticking it in the database. When it sticks something in the database, the timestamp is set by the server's time. So since the server times differ, it's possible for someone to submit something on the "behind/slower" server after someone on the "ahead/faster" server and have it show up as an earlier change.
:Thanks, Paul!  But...OK, what are the equations themselves?  They aren't on the page! :-) --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 15:56, 15 July 2008 (CDT)
:::Your wish is my command, see [[Maxwell_equations|here]].--[[User:Paul Wormer|Paul Wormer]] 04:12, 16 July 2008 (CDT)


:The servers should have a method of checking their clocks against a master clock, but that functionality appears to be missing/broken. That functionality is NTPd (Network Time Protocol daemon).  If you have a Mac, you may have used it before without noticing. Basically, it asks another server what time it is, accounts for network delay, and off it goes. The servers it queries would use something like the Atomic Clock to get the time.
::Happy [[SIPRNET]], [[point of presence]] (hit "minor" by accident), and a stubby [[Saudi Arabia]]. The day is still middle-aged. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 16:57, 15 July 2008 (CDT)


:I haven't done enough checking to figure out which one (locke or reid) is ahead of the other (because I have far too much to do and I am on dial-up internet over the summer) or how they got out of sync, but setting up NTP against either a Steadfast NTP server (if they have one) or pool.ntp.org should give us good enough (+/- 0.5 seconds) precision for our purposes.  --[[User:ZachPruckowski|ZachPruckowski]] ([[User_talk:ZachPruckowski|Speak to me]]) 14:59, 27 July 2007 (CDT)
I started [[Netiquette]] and filled up at least one entry in each of the subpages, in honor of your birthday! [[User:Supten Sarbadhikari|Supten Sarbadhikari]] 22:30, 15 July 2008 (CDT)
::We could probably live with something as bad as 15 seconds but the current 4 minutes (or what ever it is) is a real problem. So a manual fix might be sufficient for now, rather than making sure they are synchronized all the time (which is obviously preferable). [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 15:04, 27 July 2007 (CDT)


==Week 1==
Thanks, Howard and Supten! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 23:48, 15 July 2008 (CDT)
Larry, just a note to say that at the end of week 1 on CZ, my experience here has been most constructive and very satisfying. The tone and level of both content and discourse at CZ is very impressive, and for me it is a case of 'so far, so good'. Just wanted to let you know too that I have some ideas about the PR for CZ that we were discussing last week. Will spend time getting the articles I have been working on into improving shape first then will send you some thoughts on that. Thanks again for a nice first week as a "Citizen". I left a comment for you too over at [[Gay]] [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Talk:Gay].  ;-)  --[[User:Ian Johnson|Ian Johnson]] 03:08, 28 July 2007 (CDT)


Excellent, glad to hear it! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 03:31, 28 July 2007 (CDT)
Started a [[Hermeneutics]] stub as a present for you, Larry. Happy birthday! --[[User:Tom Morris|Tom Morris]] 07:32, 16 July 2008 (CDT)


==redirect to drafts==
Larry, a new chemical that you probably have never heard before, [[Thiophosphoramidite]], for your birthday.
Enjoy, but don't smell it, cause it ain't roses, believe me! [[User:David E. Volk|David E. Volk]] 10:02, 16 July 2008 (CDT)


I think it was first floated here.  http://forum.citizendium.org/index.php/topic,904.0.html
And I open a [[Right-hand_screw_rule|bottle]] to drink to your next forty years, cheers! --[[User:Paul Wormer|Paul Wormer]] 10:24, 16 July 2008 (CDT)


I saw the problem on the biology related.  Very strange.  I'll try and figure it out. I'll need to think it over its not an obvious problem.  This will be a good chance to review, clean up and document what we have so far. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 09:26, 28 July 2007 (CDT)
It's still pretty stubby, but I don't think I'm going to get through the requisite reading for an expansion before your birthday is over: [[Miguel Ángel Asturias]].  ¡Felicidades! --[[User:Joe Quick|Joe Quick]] 10:27, 16 July 2008 (CDT)


Very good, thanks! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 12:19, 28 July 2007 (CDT)
Congrats, youngster. Here is my birthday article for you: [[Ama Ata Aidoo]]. --- [[User:Regina Bouillon|Regina Bouillon]] 19:11, 16 July 2008


==Alphabet Soup==
:40 yrs is very young. Is a new article still okay - 1 day late ? ([[User:Chunbum Park|Chunbum Park]] 13:08, 16 July 2008 (CDT))
Hi Larry - just a thought. As CZ grows, can there be at the top and bottom of each of the contents [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Category:CZ_Live 'Live articles'] index pages a hyperlinked "A-B-C-D-E...W-X-Y-Z" that would allow people to use it as a quick way to jump around quickly within that list to reach more quickly that part of the list for the subject they are wanting to search for? --[[User:Ian Johnson|Ian Johnson]] 07:53, 29 July 2007 (CDT)
:here's a new article: happy birthday ! [[Yi Sunshin]]. ([[User:Chunbum Park|Chunbum Park]] 13:30, 16 July 2008 (CDT))


I am pretty sure such a thing could be made into a template. Seems like a good idea. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 08:46, 29 July 2007 (CDT)
For a young guy like you, I made a [[Latin alphabet|stub]]. Just remember, next year, you turn 0x29. [[User:Anthony Argyriou|Anthony Argyriou]] 13:43, 16 July 2008 (CDT)


: You can probably copy the template from Wikipedia. [[User:Michael Hardy|Michael Hardy]] 18:00, 29 July 2007 (CDT)
Unwrap [[Marcello Malpighi]], kid, accessories to follow. --[[User:Anthony.Sebastian|Anthony.Sebastian]] 19:23, 16 July 2008 (CDT)


OK, let's try one:
Happy Birthday Larry!  I didn't realize you were only 11 years older than me; that is truly young! --[[User:Robert W King|Robert W King]] 23:52, 16 July 2008 (CDT)


'''Contents:''' [[#content|Top]] - [[#0–9|0–9]] [[#A|A]] [[#B|B]] [[#C|C]] [[#D|D]] [[#E|E]] [[#F|F]] [[#G|G]] [[#H|H]] [[#I|I]] [[#J|J]] [[#K|K]] [[#L|L]] [[#M|M]] [[#N|N]] [[#O|O]] [[#P|P]] [[#Q|Q]] [[#R|R]] [[#S|S]] [[#T|T]] [[#U|U]] [[#V|V]] [[#W|W]] [[#X|X]] [[#Y|Y]] [[#Z|Z]] __NOTOC__<noinclude>
Happy Birthday Larry! I began the [[ENSTA]] article yesterday as a little gift :) (for you and Citizendium !) !  [[User:Sebastien.worms|sebastien.worms]] 06:41, 17 July 2008 (CDT)
----
 
--MH
Thanks so much to everyone! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 12:27, 17 July 2008 (CDT)
 
:: A bit late from me (of course). And an apology. I did write you an article, but found when I tried to insert it that the topic had been blocked for Eduzendium, so I'll keep that back. So the best I could do was take [[Thomas Kuhn]] up a notch. Hope you'll accept that for now and forgive me. [[User:Gareth Leng|Gareth Leng]] 16:29, 27 July 2008 (CDT)
 
:::: Thanks for your work on philosophy of science topics, Gareth! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 20:44, 27 July 2008 (CDT)
 
::::: [[Georges Cuvier]] now live (at 40 he showed that dinosaurs could fly; so some of us are hoping you'll do as much for us).[[User:Gareth Leng|Gareth Leng]] 14:56, 28 July 2008 (CDT)
 
2009:<br />
When I just nominated an article for approval, the date rang a bell, and so I thought there might be some use for [[orchid]] here, Larry. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 07:19, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 
::Hope you'll have (or was it yesterday?) a pleasant birthday with your family and friends. Happy birthday!--[[User:Paul Wormer|Paul Wormer]] 07:34, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 
:::Happy Birthday Dr. Sanger. [[User:Meg Ireland|Meg Ireland]] 07:43, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 
You mean I haven't archived this page in over a year?  Amazing!
 
Thank you all!
 
I just arrived back from Russia and was out of commission for several days.  In fact, with jetlag, I might be out of commission for a few more, but I ''do'' intend to put in some much-needed CZ time in the near future.  Sorry for being AWOL. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 11:35, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 
2010?
 
2011
A bit belated, but my best wishes nonetheless. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 10:33, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
 
Thanks, Daniel! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 00:49, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
 
== good points ==
 
http://forum.citizendium.org/index.php/topic,1791.0/topicseen.html  I would investigate and see what else this user suggests. [[User:Tom Kelly|Tom Kelly]] 16:39, 15 July 2008 (CDT)
 
Replied on the forums. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 23:48, 15 July 2008 (CDT)
 
 
==Everything?==
Larry,
 
Somewhere today you asked about the Public/Related Articles: " Isn't "everything" a little too broad as a parent topic? And will we have an article titled "everything"? Interesting question...)" I saw your comment on the "Recent Changes" list for Sociology, but I'll be darned if I can find an original memo to reply to, so I'm posting here in the expectation you will see it.
 
I did that deliberately in part as a belated birthday present for you! And it got much the reaction I was expecting: interest. And yes, it seems to me a case can be made for at least a brief article by that title. I've long been intrigued by one of the management ontology projects in Toronto a few years ago (TOVE) that began an elaborate branching diagram with the term "Thing" and this is in much the same spirit. It's hard to get more parent than that!
 
One [[Thing|thing]] is clear and that is that [[Society]] most definitely is not a Parent topic of Public/Private and I will be removing it shortly. That usage throws neutrality right out the window and walks screaming and flailing right into the middle of some of the oldest and longest running theoretical issues in this area. The State/Society issue is a major part of it, but with respect to publics there are other issues as well. So, Society is definitely not a suitable parent for public.
 
As I thought about it, most dichotomies of public and private are, indeed, offered as universals to the extent that they do indeed seek to dichotomize everything. (Hence, the provocation.) What we really need here, I think, is some help from an epistemologist; No wait, we have one! And he's interested.
 
In short, I posted [[Everything]] in a rather lighthearted vein, and I would welcome any suggestions for alternatives, but there are some really meaty issues involved here, more than a few of which go right to the heart of your interests in this project. E.g. [[public domain]]
 
P.S.: I think both [[Thing]] and [[Everything]] are probably most appropriate topics for the philosophy workgroup. Suggestions for how we get them involved?
 
[[User:Roger Lohmann|Roger Lohmann]] 20:47, 24 July 2008 (CDT)
 
Hi Roger, let me reply on [[Talk:Public]] so others can benefit. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 09:35, 25 July 2008 (CDT)
 
==EC Resolution==
Will you please make a Resolution out of [[CZ:Proposals/Pilot_to_allow_Citizens_to_take_credit_for_pages]] and place it to the EC? [[User:Supten Sarbadhikari|Supten Sarbadhikari]] 23:16, 30 July 2008 (CDT)
 
Well, I'm not sure I'm so excited about it anymore.  I'll have a look again though. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 17:16, 31 July 2008 (CDT)
 
== biology week ==
 
so when should the announcements and press releases go out?  Surely, we should have advertisements of some sort out 1 month prior to the actual week itself.  august 22 is rapidly approaching [[User:Tom Kelly|Tom Kelly]] 10:17, 13 August 2008 (CDT)
 
I totally agree, Tom.  It's something I've been intending to get started on myself, and I was hoping our new hire would also be working on it...we'll get moving soon, one way or another. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 22:14, 14 August 2008 (CDT)
 
==Ronnie Drew==
 
Just after noticing you mention that you like traditional Irish music. Would you be familiar with other  Irish folk artists? I'm just curious because I'm thinking of writing articles for Phil Coulter and Tommy Sands. [[User:Denis Cavanagh|Denis Cavanagh]] 10:45, 18 August 2008 (CDT)
 
Well, I'm not really into "Irish folk" but Irish traditional.  I don't know much about Coulter or Sands...but I did know about Ronnie Drew! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 21:31, 18 August 2008 (CDT)
 
== Subpages and code words  ==
 
Moved section to [[Talk:Gulf_War#Subpages_and_code_words|this talk page section]]. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 11:02, 21 August 2008 (CDT)
 
== Jimbo Wales ==
 
... is now labeling challenges of his claims as sole founder of ''Wikipedia'' as trolling. See [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AJimbo_Wales&diff=236425968&oldid=236383042 this].
 
While you're at it, would you mind modifying the "+" tab that adds a new section to "New section" or something similar?
 
Cheers, [[User:Thomas H. Larsen|Thomas H. Larsen]] 19:27, 5 September 2008 (CDT)
 
Who cares?  :-) --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 12:39, 6 September 2008 (CDT)
: True! [[User:Thomas H. Larsen|Thomas H. Larsen]] 19:06, 7 September 2008 (CDT)
::The folks who maintain the Wikipedia article on you have managed to keep the opening sentence reading ''Lawrence Mark "Larry" Sanger (born 16 July 1968[1]) is an American philosopher, co-founder of Wikipedia, and the creator of encyclopedia Citizendium.[2][3][4]'' despite attempts by Jimbo fanboys to mess with it.  It's actually an example of how Wikipedia works, when it works - the folks defending that position have overwhelmed the other side with references, and if an uninvolved party gets called in to look at the dispute, he sees the references, and keeps the article saying that you co-founded Wikipedia. [[User:Anthony Argyriou|Anthony Argyriou]] 12:27, 8 September 2008 (CDT)
:::But think of the man hours wasted. That could also be cited as an example of why it does not work. Who has the time for such fights? [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 12:53, 8 September 2008 (CDT)
::::Man centuries, you mean.  But it *does* work, in the way that a [[Rube Goldberg]] contraption works, at least on paper.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 13:01, 8 September 2008 (CDT)
::: Well, there are some excellent Wikipedians out there - in fact, I've had the opportunity to work alongside them, and a truly good, honest, kind, and productive Wikipedian is a blessing to the Wikipedia project. Unfortunately, the project is also spoiled by "editors" who are arrogant and fancy themselves as know-alls. [[User:Thomas H. Larsen|Thomas H. Larsen]] 04:10, 11 September 2008 (CDT)
::::My point is not addressing the many users that genuinely want to write content.  That part works very well.  The problem is the random noise from the drive by vandals, some who are very good at making subtle changes. That is where the time is lost. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 09:13, 11 September 2008 (CDT)
 
:::::What are Man hours and Man centuries? Could someone explain the terminology? When I was in Wikipedia, I did defend Dr. Larry's claim to have co-founded Wikipedia. ([[User:Chunbum Park|Chunbum Park]] 07:17, 12 September 2008 (CDT))
::::::Thanks, Chunbum.  A man-hour (or person-hour) is one hour of work performed ''by anyone''...similarly with man-days, man-years, etc. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 08:30, 12 September 2008 (CDT)
 
(unindent) I started at Wikipedia around late 2001, and there was no question then that Larry and Jimbo were co-founders. I've updated Conservapedia's LS article accordingly. Hey, Larry, was that you who signed in the other day? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 16:10, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 
:Yes it was--my first and probably only edit there.  :-)  --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 23:04, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
 
== Sending off Endorsement Letter for Biology Week ==
 
Hi Larry, please see [[User_talk:Anthony.Sebastian#Endorsement_Letter]] and let us know whether it would be possible to send these mails from a citizendium account, preferably something like Biology_Week (at) Citizendium.org . Besides, I wonder whether there will be a press release on Biology Week and whether anyone is working on it. I think our PLoS text may provide a good basis for that. Thanks, [[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 03:34, 13 September 2008 (CDT)
 
Excellent!
 
Do you want me to set up that e-mail address then, Daniel?  I will if you want me to.
 
As to the press release, the answer is that we want one but it doesn't exist yet.  Basically, there's no need to ask me; I set up the Biology Week pages so anybody could dive in and get to work organizing it! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 06:58, 13 September 2008 (CDT)
 
:Actually I didn't add the header but I can fix it.  It does not have to be at the top of every page.  It could be restricted to the talk pages. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 14:31, 14 September 2008 (CDT)
 
::That would be a reasonable solution (talk pages only).  I do like having it on every page, though. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 12:25, 15 September 2008 (CDT)
 
:::Is there any way I could horn in on the Citizendium email address thing in order to send out announcements to bloggers? Thanks, [[User:Brian P. Long|Brian P. Long]] 22:51, 17 September 2008 (CDT)
 
::::It's a good idea, but I need to access the login info at my computer at home (I'm on the road).  E-mail me on Friday for it or simply start sending it out...you can quite legitimately say in the e-mail that you are a representative of CZ's Biology Workgroup. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 23:15, 17 September 2008 (CDT)
 
Why don't we do both. I'll start sending out emails, and then we can send the same folks reminder emails from an official address once the week starts. Thanks, [[User:Brian P. Long|Brian P. Long]] 00:52, 18 September 2008 (CDT)
 
:Right...remind me if I don't set it up soon. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 19:28, 18 September 2008 (CDT)
 
::First off, this is me reminding you again, Larry. Let me know when the CZ email address is online. Secondly, I was wondering if we or 43PR were going to be sending out any announcements by fax. I've been working on compiling a list of email addresses for prominent biology departments, and most are accessible online, but there are a few that only have fax numbers. Let me know either way. Thanks, [[User:Brian P. Long|Brian P. Long]] 09:23, 19 September 2008 (CDT)
 
== Power outage ==
 
All--our power here in central Ohio took a massive hit and my Internet connection may be intermittent...
 
Also, I've got to get ready for a talk in L.A. in a few days. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 12:26, 15 September 2008 (CDT)
 
:Can't you divert some of that E-I-C power to batteries?
 
:Semi-seriously, I talk a bit about the Ohio Valley Blackout at [[System Control And Data Network]]. Know anyone who would like to write a case study on the specific incident?[[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 12:56, 15 September 2008 (CDT)
 
I happen to know someone who ''could'' write the entry, but I don't know if he would like to! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 13:55, 15 September 2008 (CDT)
 
== Biology Week press release ==
As it's getting rather urgent, I put up a page to draft a [[CZ:Biology Workgroup/Biology Week planning/Shorter Press Release draft|press release for Biology Week]]. Some quotes from you, and others, would make it ready for release. --[[User:Tom Morris|Tom Morris]] 17:19, 15 September 2008 (CDT)
 
Yep, I know.  I'm planning to put my own final touches on it on Friday morning, and send it out then.  We might be able to get 43PR to send it out for us, too... --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 23:13, 17 September 2008 (CDT)
 
== Please join us for Biology Week! ==
 
<table><tr valign=top><td>
Hello Larry,
 
I am giving you this personal invitation to join us this week for Biology Week!
 
Please join us on the wiki and add or edit biology articles.  Also, please let your friends and colleagues who are biologists, biology students, or naturalists, know about Biology Week and ask them to join us, too.  Any way you can help make it an event would be most welcome.  Think of it as a [[CZ:Biology Workgroup|Biology Workgroup]] open house.  Let's see if we can kick up activity a notch!
 
Thanks in advance! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 08:51, 22 September 2008 (CDT)
</td><td>{{Biology open house}}</td></tr></table>
:Hmmm...not sure what to say about that :) [[User:Aaron Schulz|Aaron Schulz]] 09:40, 22 September 2008 (CDT)
:: :-) Just in case I forget.  ha ha --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 12:08, 22 September 2008 (CDT)
 
==semiauto-move feature==
Just trying to figure out how to make moving clusters move automated. Currently its really confusing even when you know what you are doing.  Also note movement on the subgroup proposal.  The thread in the initiatives folder is active again (subworkgroup thread). [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 22:57, 27 September 2008 (CDT)
 
:Yep, semi-automating cluster-moving would be good.  We really need to make it ''fully'' automated.  As to subworkgroups, I noticed... --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 23:00, 27 September 2008 (CDT)
 
::You can give it a test run by moving the metadata to a new name for any article.  You'll see some links appear above the subpage bar at the top.  They are all the links that need to be moved.  Once they have all been moved you just have to update the pagename field in the metadata.  I'm going to prettyify it, and it does not have every feature i envisage yet. Also it has not been fully tested, so beware. Fully automatic would be great if you know a programer. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 23:03, 27 September 2008 (CDT)
 
:::Can you write instructions and link to them in an appropriate place or places?  I'll help test it out.  Then we should announce it... --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 23:23, 27 September 2008 (CDT)
 
The only instruction you need is "make sure the very first move is the Metadata template". Instructions will then appear at the top of the page and allow you to go through the whole process.  What I intend to do, but have not yet, is to make it easy to place the appropriate speedy deletes. At present every redirect will be left in place.  In most cases this is not so bad.  But the old metadata page really should be deleted. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 23:28, 27 September 2008 (CDT)
 
:Forget all I mentioned here for now.  i have to abandon my first attempt with the semi-auto move template as I found a fatal flaw that affects any article with an apostrophe in the title (long story). [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 01:06, 28 September 2008 (CDT)
 
::How frustrating... --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 08:22, 29 September 2008 (CDT)
 
I [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Forum#Question_about_magic_words asked a question here] on a mediawiki Q&A page. It does not mean that the semi-auto move function cannot be accomplished but the most seamless solution would not be possible.  The next best thing would involve having a field in the metadata template with the name of the new target. This is not that complex but i would prefer if the template kicked in as soon as '''any''' page is moved rather than requiring an entry in the metadata page. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 08:53, 29 September 2008 (CDT)
 
:Chris, did you try localurl, as in:
::<code><nowiki>{{#ifeq: {{localurl:{{BASEPAGENAME}}}} | {{localurl:Arthur's Seat}} | They are equal | NOT equal}}</nowiki></code>
:I have no idea what you're trying to do, so this may well be useless. -- [[User:Jitse Niesen|Jitse Niesen]] 09:58, 29 September 2008 (CDT)
::Excellent, that works!!! many thanks. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 12:27, 29 September 2008 (CDT)
 
== Your proposal "Article task and notification list" ==
 
Dear Larry, I'm afraid I have been slack in managing all the proposals. However, inspired by the [[CZ:Monthly Write-a-Thon|Monthly Write-a-Thon]] and its theme "spring cleaning", I now want to clear out all the proposals that are merely gathering dust and push the rest forwards. I see you made a proposal "Article task and notification list" which unfortunately is still without a driver. I hope you'll find a driver within a few days, in which case, please have the driver update the proposal record at [[CZ:Proposals/New#Article task and notification list]]. Otherwise, I will remove the proposal and put it on the pile of driverless proposals. -- [[User:Jitse Niesen|Jitse Niesen]] 16:48, 1 October 2008 (CDT)
 
Thanks for getting back involved with this Jitse--it was badly needed.  I'm not going to be able to drive this proposal myself so I guess it goes into the pile... --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 16:57, 1 October 2008 (CDT)
:I had not noticed this before.  It is just an extension of the todo list we already have to get the metadata completed.  It would be very easy to have subpage specific task etc. I just need to know what we want in the boxes. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 00:48, 2 October 2008 (CDT)
::At this point I suppose all you need is an editable box? When you say standard tasks this means you want to have a bank of standardised tasks that can be switched on or off? [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 00:50, 2 October 2008 (CDT)
 
:::Right--I think you have it.  The key line in my brief description is "This would serve a similar purpose to WP's various top-of-page notices."  I agree, it should not be very difficult.  Maybe the most difficult part would be in the design, because on the talk pages, the subpages template is generating something pretty confusing and messy.  You can think creatively about how to do this, but here is an idea.  I'd like to see a standard metadata page section, easy to read in text format (which loads only when the talk page is loaded).  All the bits are set to 0 or N, and in order to make a notice, all you have to do is set it to 1 or Y.  On the talk page, where the notices display, there should be a clearly-labelled link back to the metadata section where they can be edited.
 
:::Again, you might have a better way of doing this. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 07:36, 2 October 2008 (CDT)
 
::::The proposal is now on the junk pile ([[CZ:Proposals/Driverless]]), but Chris, if you want to put some work in it, I would say that you just go ahead. You're subpage supremo anyway, so I think it's more efficient to bypass the whole proposal thingy. -- [[User:Jitse Niesen|Jitse Niesen]] 15:01, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
 
== We are back ==
 
Sorry for the downtime.  One of our servers, which doesn't usually go down, went down...it's back up.  My e-mail still isn't working, not sure why.
 
--[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 11:20, 9 October 2008 (CDT)
 
== I'm outta here ==
 
Please remove my name from the list of contributors to Citizendium. I have no use for your attack dogs -- e.g., on the forum discussion about my suggested subpage to the manga article.
 
Timothy Perper
 
[[User:Timothy Perper|Timothy Perper]] 23:44, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
 
This is wholly unnecessary, and at the risk of sounding like Jimmy Wales, just one big misunderstanding.  Let me get back home and deal with the situation then. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 06:36, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 
== Page moves disabled? ==
 
Larry - are page moves disabled?  And where do I go to request a move be made, if I don't (want to/feel comfortable with) moving a cluster? [[User:Anthony Argyriou|Anthony Argyriou]] 00:53, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
 
:Hi Anthony, nice to see you.  No, page moves aren't disabled, or they shouldn't be.
 
:Are others having this problem?  If so, it must be because of the recent MediaWiki update. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 02:04, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
 
::Yes, for a week or so now.  No Move tab at the top of my page, either in FF or IE. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 02:06, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
:::Still?  Howard moved something the other day ([http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Special:Log/move 16th October]). [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 02:12, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
::::Well, as of the moment of me typing this, there is no Move tab up there. I saw that Howard did indeed move something the other day and figured that he was using his old CIA and NSA contacts to lend him a helping hand.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 03:38, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
 
:::::Makes perfect sense. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 04:02, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
 
::::::I e-mailed bugs and now we just have to hope the guys will do something.  ;-) --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 04:21, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
 
== Testing ==
 
Testing testing --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 17:51, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
 
== Finalizing the approval of [[Accidental release source terms]] was supposed to occur yesterday ==
 
Larry, the finalizing of approval of the [[Accidental release source terms]] was supposed to occur yesterday. Matt Innis usually does that chore, but he seems to be unavailable. So I also tried Ruth Ifcher, but no luck there either. Chris Day has said that he would take care of it if someone would authorize him to do so. Would you please authorize Chris? [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 21:46, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
 
It's all right with me if Chris does this.  On account of his work on the subpages template, Chris is already a sysop and should have all the permissions that he should need in the system to approve articles. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 22:29, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
 
:Done.  I was not sure if I could do it, not being a constable. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 00:57, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 
::Since so many of our constables are not responding, I think this is a perfectly suitable expedient.  Thanks for taking up the slack1 --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 01:05, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
 
== your assistance please... ==
 
{{nocomplaints}}
 
George, please contact me and/or the Constabulary via e-mail if you have complaints about other Citizens.  Complaining about another Citizen's behavior puts him on the spot, and on the defensive, which is why [[CZ:Professionalism]] doesn't permit it. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 04:15, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 
== Community boosting ==
 
How was I to know that the purpose of the page was to boost the community? --[[User:Paul Wormer|Paul Wormer]] 16:50, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 
Do you really mean to say it wasn't obvious? --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 17:34, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 
No, it wasn't, I thought you expected an honest evaluation.
 
I've read in the meantime the  [http://mail.citizendium.org/pipermail/cz-editcouncil/2008-November/date.html  recent discussion] (I wasn't aware of its existence) and see my two main points confirmed: (i) People become irritated  easily when using e-mail and/or the Web and (ii) editors are too easily overruled (or, at least, I seem to be not the only one who think so; I see now that a VIP left CZ for that reason a couple of days ago).--[[User:Paul Wormer|Paul Wormer]] 17:40, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 
Well, I ''did'' expect an honest evaluation; if you can't honestly recommend CZ, you shouldn't write anything on that page, I guess.
 
You wouldn't be aware of the existence of the cz-editcouncil discussion because the list is of the Editorial Council.  I just thought in all honestly that you would find the discussion interesting and relevant, and I was evidently right!
 
The editor who left CZ recently was ''not'' overruled.  He, for whatever reasons, likes to think and say so, but he is incorrect, and I've explained why several times.  His definition of "overruled" seems to be: disagreed with by the Editor-in-Chief.  Hence, whenever I disagree with an editor, I overrule him?  Of course not.  In fact, the problem that I personally had with the article in question still remains.
 
Also, even if it were a case of an editor being overruled, in this case it was the Editor-in-Chief who did the overruling.  So that particular controversy isn't about the prerogatives of editors vs. authors, but about the prerogatives of the Editor-in-Chief vs. editors! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 17:49, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 
:Larry, I appended a paragraph, please have a look.--[[User:Paul Wormer|Paul Wormer]] 08:11, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 
::Looks fine with me then.  Thanks. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 14:00, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 
==Greetings too from Martin Cohen==
 
Hulo Larry, and gang of editors/ authors!
 
Thanks for you message, glad to be here, at the best part of the project methinks. You've got the principles absolutely right, and the technology works, we just need the content now. I hadn't realised there was so much to be done before CZ reaches 'critical mass' - enough material for people to start using it as a real reference work - at which point everyone will flock here and we'll need to spend our time correcting pages rather than writing them.


Right, but that isn't usable on, for example, [[:Category:CZ Live]], where you can link to specific places in a list, like this: {{tl|alpha cat}} --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 23:12, 30 July 2007 (CDT)
I put some details of what I plan to do on the 'philosophy talk' page too, and am getting down to work straight away - we must get those key philosophers 'rolled out'!


I'm going to copy this to my own talk page as well.


== CZ Write-a-Thon==
Venceremos!
Larry, I have emailed you with an important message on this: this is just to encourage you to read the email! --[[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 05:46, 31 July 2007 (CDT)


Very good, thanks. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 06:02, 31 July 2007 (CDT)
[[User:Martin Cohen|Martin Cohen]] 13:10, 7 November 2008 (UTC)


== On stubs ==
(Goodnes,, I'm an 'oldie' here...)


I would like to ask if the policy on stubs have changed, since I remember someone on the forum mentioned it but forgot where it was exactly. Thanks! [[User:Yi Zhe Wu|Yi Zhe Wu]] 21:36, 31 July 2007 (CDT)
Excellent, thanks! Oh, believe me, we've got a lot of oldies here.  ;-)-


No, not really.  We didn't come to any conclusions.  So, stubs under 50 words are still deletable, and we encourage any new articles to be considerably over that.  But it has always been all right to create 150 word stubs.  The question we were considering was whether we should ''officially encourage'' stubs that are at least between, say, 150 and 250 words.  We never came to a conclusion about that. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 00:27, 1 August 2007 (CDT)
We definitely need a lot of work done in philosophy, that's for sure. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 13:58, 7 November 2008 (UTC)


==One click moves all subpages==
When did the option to move subpages get added? (or has it always been there?) This is going to make moving clusters much much easier.  if you don't know what I'm talking about try and move a page with clusters and note that one of the options is to move all subpages along with the article. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 04:58, 11 November 2008 (UTC)


=="Make mine a gay bacon lettuce and tomato thanks" ;-)==
Huh? I didn't notice!  Yay! It must have been included in the most recent MW update, which we did a few weeks back (as you know). Totally...basically, moving a cluster is now a simple two-step process. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 05:37, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
''GBLT--also a tasty sandwich!''
:(Larry, I have been using that joke in meetings for some years and believing I invented it. Either I talk too much - quite possible - and my thinking is now received wisdom, or, inspired (and amused) minds think alike. --[[User:Ian Johnson|Ian Johnson]] 04:38, 1 August 2007 (CDT))
::Note for you over at [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Talk:GLBT [[GLBT]] Talk] --[[User:Ian Johnson|Ian Johnson]] 05:04, 1 August 2007 (CDT)


Gee, I thought I just came up with it myself. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 05:08, 1 August 2007 (CDT)
I'll update that ''move cluster'' link on the talk page to reflect this change (that was a nightmare procedure so I'm glad to see that go). I also note that the automated moves got messed up in that update so other functions might not be behaving as we expect. Stephens upload wizard comes to mind, although I have not seen anything odd to date. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 06:05, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
:: I think it is probably a 'great minds think alike' thing ;-) and it is pretty funny. Thanks for those links to the 'related pages' examples - they should help to keep things improving in the CZ [[GLBT]] world.--[[User:Ian Johnson|Ian Johnson]] 05:35, 1 August 2007 (CDT)


Good one, L-rry S-ng-r! Thanks. [[User:David Hoffman|David Hoffman]] 12:48, 1 August 2007 (CDT)
Sounds great. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 14:13, 11 November 2008 (UTC)


== Global warming and edit wars ==
== Help? ==


Hi Larry,
Hi Larry,


I just read in the forum you are going to test new rules about avoiding edit wars on [[Global warming]]. Great, we need it. But please note I'll be unavailable 5-17 of august, won't be able to access the wiki.
Sorry to "bug" you as it were, but the update a few weeks ago appears to have broken a template I was working on.  Is there any documentation on the changes implemented in the new version?--[[User:David Yamakuchi|David Yamakuchi]] 04:53, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


Editor [[User:Raymond Arritt|Raymond Arritt]], who worked hard on the article, may take care of this process, and is certainly more qualified than me on this particular topic. I fear, however, he'll be the only editor at play for the days to come.
Try [[http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/User_talk:Derek_Harkness/Skin]]...I don't know that much about the technical details, I'm afraid. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 06:07, 4 December 2008 (UTC)


[[Ciao]], --[[User:Nereo Preto|Nereo Preto]] 03:46, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
==CZ in French==
Hello, I wish to let you know that I fully agree with your statement ''The people who want to hide behind pseudonyms, who want to play governance games in order to push their biases, and who want to prove their maturity and enlightenment by putting up pictures of naked little girls, can stick with Wikipedia''. I have experienced that the same disfunction exists in the "WP in French". Therefore, am I waiting for the "CZ in French" creation. May I recommend not to wait until a great amount of bilingual Authors have joined CZ. May I recommend to start "CZ in French" with bilingual managers + French-speaking Authors. I believe that this push would fit the growth with quality strategy of CZ.  Best regards.[[User:Thierry Henri Cauchois|Thierry Henri Cauchois]] 13:47, 13 December 2008 (UTC)


== [[Samantha Smith]] ==
:Thanks for the push, Thierry--it is hard enough to manage CZ in English, but perhaps we should just set up the wikis and let those who are interested in the projects in other languages just get started. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 17:10, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
::There are a dozen or so articles I wrote in French several years ago for the French WP that could be imported (from the moment I stopped editing them, so that they are entirely mine), which would at least add a few items.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 17:52, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
::: Thanks for answering. My analysis is based on two facts : 1- a huge amount of good quality articles already exists on WP in French; 2- a number of French WP contributors (or past contributors) are willing to contribute another way (a serious one). If importing articles from WP fits to CZ strategy, I would recommend for CZ to create the framework in French, then to select French CZ Authors entitled to start import (it is important to reach rapidly a critical mass of articles). In addition, being a user of the German WP, I have noticed its high quality standard. Perhaps is the same quick start possible. Friendly.[[User:Thierry Henri Cauchois|Thierry Henri Cauchois]] 22:01, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


Well, there is not much more to really add to her story. And I *did* click the "article is from Wikipedia?" box. [[User:Paul Austin|Paul Austin]] 07:54, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
::::I will certainly give it some thought (again). --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 05:02, 16 December 2008 (UTC)


Aha.  Probably what happened is that the only edit you made to the article, one time, was to check the box.  But the change won't "take" if it's the only change you make.  You need to add or subtract some whitespace, or make some other edit, in order for the checkbox change to register.
== Business world ==


The question isn't whether there's more to add to her story, it's whether we can possibly do a better job.  Surely a better job can be done. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 09:42, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
Larry, I think that your community's encyclopedic coverage of the business world is severely lacking.  (As you may know, I'm the founder/operator of a site that would call itself an encyclopedic business directory, so I may be shooting myself in my own foot by communicating this to you, but...)  I would like to know your policy about entities writing about themselves, or (heaven forbid) paying a third-party encyclopedist to write about themselves.  As an example, I have added the (non-paid) encyclopedic entry about [[National Fuel Gas]].  Note, I didn't bother with cleaning up formatting for your environment here, because I don't know if we're on the same level-set regarding the provenance of info about corporations.  What is your opinion about such content as this article, and does it matter to you whether money has exchanged hands to generate said initial content (assuming, of course, that the tone and style of the work is encyclopedic and not marketing puffery)? -- [[User:Gregory J. Kohs|Gregory J. Kohs]] 16:09, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
----
 
What would you suggest?
:We have already thought about this and established two relevant, interrelated policies: [[CZ:Policy on Topic Informants]] and [[CZ:Policy on Self-Promotion]].
I'm new to CZ so any advice would be appreciated. I admire you a lot Larry. [[User:Paul Austin|Paul Austin]] 10:08, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
 
:In short, realistically speaking, I don't think it is possible to set up a system in which PR firms are permitted to write ''neutral'' prose for their clients.  PR firms are specifically paid to make their clients look good.  We are, shall we say, in a different business.  I should think all of this would be obvious to anyone who understands the ethics of reference publishing.  Evidently, the ethics of business directory publishing is different. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 16:19, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 
::At no point did I mention "public relations firms", and I am not in the PR business.  Your jumping to the "PR" label is similar to what Jimmy Wales did in August 2006, which many feel was a big mistake, because it just "drove underground" the efforts of people genuinely interested in disseminating encyclopedic information about entities with which they were affiliated.  I won't bore you with examples.  I also still seek your opinion about the writing tone and relevance to Citizendium of [[National Fuel Gas]].  I will now go and read the two policies you highlighted. -- [[User:Gregory J. Kohs|Gregory J. Kohs]] 16:30, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 
::It would seem that your opinion may be in contradiction with CZ policy:  "You may not, even if you are a topic informant, start an article about yourself, or any company, organization, website, or other entity, especially marketable entity, with which you are closely associated."  Would you consider a paid encyclopedist to have a "close association" with the organization that he (relatively speaking) briefly researches, synthesizes, and publishes about -- especially considering that the content would then be released into the CC-by-sa realm, to be managed by literally anyone?  My answer would be a clear "no", but I'll await your answers to this question and the one above about [[National Fuel Gas]]. -- [[User:Gregory J. Kohs|Gregory J. Kohs]] 16:38, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 
:::I don't really care what Jimmy Wales said.  Sure, you didn't say PR firms; ''I'' did.  Obviously, someone who is paid by a company to write about the company is acting as a PR agent for the company.  But no important issues turn on whether we apply "PR firm" or "PR agent" in this case.  Call them, simply, agents.  My concerns still apply; they are substantive, not reducible to semantics.
 
:::You are obviously correct when you say that people affiliated with a company may sincerely wish to disseminate correct, even neutral information about the company.  But that observation does not reply to the concern I have, namely, that ''if we adopt it as a general policy'' that agents of commercial enterprises (or of nonprofit or government enterprises, for that matter) may edit articles about their enterprises, we both lose credibility and have to doublecheck all information that these inherently biased agents insert.  The correct answer to your question, about whether the paid encyclopedist has a close association with an enterprise, depends entirely on who pays the encyclopedist, now doesn't it?  If, say, someone were sheerly out of the goodness of his heart decide to pay someone to work on CZ articles about businesses, and it could be proven that this person were not acting as anybody's agent but merely adding lots of useful information because it's so useful, well, I think that would be OK.  But ''surely'' you aren't actually saying any such person, supported by a sheerly civic-minded entity, exists?
 
:::You may not understand our policy.  I think any agent would be welcome to start business-related articles, post interviews, etc., in the TI: namespace.  It would then be up to regular Citizens to decide whether to import those, or edited versions of them, to the main namespace.
 
:::If you think about it, for articles submitted by company agents, our Citizens would have to do due diligence in checking any potentially biased or self-serving information.  Either we do this before the articles are posted in the main namespace, or we do it after.  I think we should do it before, simply because we don't want to outstrip the volunteer resources we have.
 
:::After all this discussion, I'm afraid I don't have time to look into [[National Fuel Gas]]--I'm very, very busy with multiple projects these days.  You could always ask on the Forums or on the talk page of that article...I'm betting some people will be willing to join in.  There are several active people who understand the relevant policies.  But I think I should ask whether National Fuel Gas had any understanding with you about your inserting it into CZ.  In other words, were you acting as their agent, or were you merely adding information about the company?  If you ''weren't'' acting as an agent, and you are trying to make a point by adding the article (I assume thanks are in order, by the way!), then what is your point? --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 17:11, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 
::::Your concerns about your site's credibility are of merit.  I am simply going to predict, however, that by the year 2020, Citizendium will have less than 25% of the Fortune 1000 firms documented with articles, unless you or someone else decides to simply scrape them from another source.  This, too, will have adverse effects on your site's credibility -- "a compendium with 25% coverage of the largest organizations on the planet?", people will chortle.  Regardless, your position is actually very good for me in the long run, as a proprietor of a business directory site who would rather not have you as competition.  I was mostly asking you these questions to allay any underlying pangs of Catholic "guilt" I might have, for not helping your encyclopedia with its development of business entity articles.  You're coming up on two years of public content building, and you have articles only about [[National Fuel Gas]] and [[Nintendo]] in the Business Workgroup category subheading for the letter "'''N'''".  Yesterday, it was only [[Nintendo]]. 
 
::::The National Fuel Gas company has no idea who I am, and I have no payment relationship or history whatsoever with them.  The "point" of that article is simply to demonstrate the "tone" and "style" of how a paid encyclopedist ''might'' write an article about a company, without technically being a "public relations" agent of the company.  I would offer you about a dozen examples of ''paid'' articles that I've created, but then they would get deleted from Wikipedia, and after two years of their thriving there, I'd really hate to so foolishly sabotage my good content.  So, I doubled your site's coverage of the "N" companies, and now I'll be on my way, since your concerns about bias and "self-serving" content outweigh your concerns about lack of coverage.  I can live with that, and I still wish you the best of luck with your concept. I worry, though, that you will have a pristine but tiny compendium that only 1% of Internet users will ever visit. -- [[User:Gregory J. Kohs|Gregory J. Kohs]] 17:34, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 
:::::The same article exists at WP, word for word. There has been no attempt to modify it for the CZ article as it stands. So, assuming that you want to leave it here, it has to have the WP template attached to it. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 17:36, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 
::::::Even if the authorship of both articles is entirely my own, and the origination of the words therein predates its being uploaded to either Wikipedia or to Citizendium?  I mean, if you want to get technical about [http://www.mywikibiz.com/index.php?title=Directory:National_Fuel_Gas&action=history chickens and eggs], let's be careful.  I would be particularly offended if the article received a "WP template", when it was created on December 10, 2006, by me, long before Wikipedia copied it from my site. -- [[User:Gregory J. Kohs|Gregory J. Kohs]] 17:45, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 
:::::::Thanks for your concern, Gregory.
 
:::::::As to the article and crediting WP, simply put a notice at the top of the talk page saying that you are the sole author of the article (if, in fact you are!) and then nobody will check the "from WP" checkbox.  But if anyone from WP has made any edits to this article, i.e., if even a comma was from a Wikipedian, we have to credit WP as a source.
 
:::::::You can also feel free to credit MyWikiBiz.com at the bottom of the article just as we credit Wikipedia as a source for WP-started articles.  But then, people will probably also want, on the talk page, your above disclaimers to me about your lack of involvement with National Fuel Gas. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 18:34, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
 
== Open letter to Larry Sanger ==
 
As per Larry's request, I have deleted this entire thread and moved it to:
http://forum.citizendium.org/index.php/board,73.0.html in the Non-Member's Forum Discussion. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 03:06, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
 
== Specialized editor ==
 
Larry, I see some articles that are ready for approval.  Could I be made specialist editor for the following categories based on my indicated experience below?
 
#Boxing: 2-time state amateur champion and long-time fan
#Bowling: 1-time city league champion and long-time bowler
#Soccer: 10+ years playing and paid referee of youth soccer leagues for several years
#Sailing: Have sailed on boats ranging from 16' cats to 44' yachts (island living is sooo tough!)
[[User:David E. Volk|David E. Volk]] 21:47, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 
Hi David, I am impressed!
 
Could you send me some more details by e-mail please? --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 02:48, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
 
==Holy Schnikes ==
My edit above seems to be attributed to Chris Day.  Do we have a new bug? [[User:David E. Volk|David E. Volk]] 21:54, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
 
[http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=User_talk%3ALarry_Sanger&diff=100436312&oldid=100436250 That] is way bizarre.  I will see what the tech guys say about it. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 02:51, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
 
:Not bizarre, I copied and pasted it here from [[Talk:Larry Sanger]]. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 03:07, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
 
::Doh! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 03:31, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
 
== categories revisited ==
 
Larry, how did you get the talk page categories to only show the article name?  Would it be possible to do a similar trick for the template namespace such that any category on the metadata template would only show up in a category list as just BASEPAGENAME (not Template:BASEPAGENAME/Metadata)? I should add, this is asking for one extra thing compared with the current talk namespace, as in that case a category on a 'Talk:Article/Draft' type page will be listed as "Article/Draft" not "Article" in the category list. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 04:12, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 
A "magic word" probably, but what template are you referring to? --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 04:23, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
:All the metadata templates, but I imagine what ever rule is in place will be valid for all templates. Do you want the long version, although, if it's not possible then the whole thing is moot anyway.  See the bottom of my talk page, response to Matt, to get a bit of a feel for what I am thinking. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 04:28, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 
::I'm still confused.  As you know, I haven't worked on the subpage templates & metadata templates associated with subpages to any significant degree since you took them over.  Do you mean the metadata templates for the userinfo system?  Sorry... --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 04:38, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 
:::No, the one for clusters, ''i.e.'' [[Template:Biology/Metadata]]. Here is the problem.  When workgroups or a status are changed in the metadata of a cluster the categories do change on the article and subpages but these changes do not get registered in the relevant categories unless an actual edit is made to the page.  Consequently, we have to make minor edits every time after a change in the metadata to make the article names appear in the correct category lists. 
 
:::I am beginning to realise that this is going to be a big problem as our size increases. One solution is to have all the categories on the metadata template.  Then, as changes are made to the metadata, all the categories will "register" immediately. This does not mean no category links will appear in the articles or the subpages, there can still be links based on the information in the metadata.  We already do this on the draft pages, look at the top of  [[Biology/Draft]] and [[Chemical_engineering/Draft]],  you'll see links to categories but there are no workgroup categories on the page. This is still a short explanation but might help you understand the problem better.  [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 04:50, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 
::::That does sound like a prickly problem...I'd need to think more about it.  It might have a server-side solution; might be a good idea to run it by the bugs guys.  Well, I'm off to bed...also, if the problem would be handily solved by putting categories on the metadata page, as you suggest, then why not do that? --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 04:55, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::I would, but then every category would have a list of article names stating with "Template" and ending with "/Metadata".  Apart from being an eyesore, it would also be much harder to parse the information. This brings us full circle ;)  See my initial comment above. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 04:58, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
::::::Gotcha.  I'd have to do research, it'd take time...maybe I'll be able to help, but don't count on it...sorry! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 20:31, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
::::::By the way, you said, "how did you get the talk page categories to only show the article name," thereby implying that I had performed this feat. I was asking, ''where'' do you think I performed the feat?  If you could point me to my performance I might be able to explain it.  :-)  --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 20:32, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::::Great, the proverbial needle in a haystack.  I'll see if i can root it out. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 20:42, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 
== M.C. Lake article ==
:what's a biology editor doing by tearing out an entire section?  I can't and won't have that.  I won't finish the article if that's going to be the case.  i thought this '''wasnt''' wikipedia.  [[User:S. W. Kolterman|S. W. Kolterman]] 06:28, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
::I sent an e-mail to try and explain the confusion.  I take responsibility here, I did not explain my edits. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 14:23, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
:::Looks like Chris was just moving sections to subpages, which is something we do here...in fact, this is one of the ways we aren't like Wikipedia.  See [[CZ:Subpages]]. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 14:47, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 
== Blurriness ==
 
Not "worried," Larry, just provoking thought. [[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 18:57, 31 January 2009 (UTC)


Thanks, Paul.  Well, [[CZ:Article Mechanics|Article Mechanics]] was written as a way of introduce people to our standards, so I'd recommend that.  Also, [[CZ:WP2CZ]] and [[CZ:Introduction to CZ for Wikipedians]].  I assume you've already seen [[CZ:How to get started as an author|How to get started as an author]].  What I saw of the S Smith article looked pretty good, to be honest.  I'm just making a general point about that.  We do make an exception for classes of articles composed ''primarily'' (if not only) by a person who has come to CZ to maintain those articles here. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 10:46, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
:And that you are doing, Russell.  I appreciate it.  Some calm, careful reflection on all these matters is definitely needed. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 19:02, 31 January 2009 (UTC)


== Another one for Dispute Watch ==
::Mostly my own thoughts.  On the [http://historywiki.emich.edu/ HW] we are also having the same sort of sorting out "what the heck are we doing here?"  [[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]]


[[Race]]. In particular, note the bias in the heading [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Race&diff=100144438&oldid=100144435 added recently]. [[User:Anthony Argyriou|Anthony Argyriou]] 10:55, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
== Traffic ==


Right you are. Forgot about that one. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 10:56, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
Larry, have you been watching CZ's page views over the last month? [[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 21:50, 31 January 2009 (UTC)


{{nocomplaints}}
:Yes, I have!  Pretty amazing, isn't it--I can't account for it. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 04:25, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
::[[Homeopathy]]? [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 08:55, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
:::I do not know which measure of CZ page views you used but I had been testing an [http://www.alexa.com/site/download Alexa toolbar] on one of my computers from about Dec 17 on (for other purposes) and switched it off on Feb 2 after I saw this discussion. I guess this explains much of the variability in [http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details/citizendium.org their CZ page view stats] during that period. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 00:01, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
::::Could one person have made that much of a difference?  Hmm...  ;-) --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 01:11, 8 February 2009 (UTC)


An editor involved has complained, and essentially doesn't want to be in the test. I'm respecting his wishes, and so I'm removing the dispute watch. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 12:03, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
:::::Daniel, I think that Russell and Chris are talking about the Forums page views which increased very dramatically recently... and the Alexa statistics are about Citizendium page views which hasn't changed much recently. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 01:17, 8 February 2009 (UTC)


== What to put into each national Catalog of cuisine ==
::::::''Could one person have made that much of a difference?  Hmm...''  If so, then lets all add Alexa toolbars! :-)  [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 01:54, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
Hi, Larry! When you have a moment, could you please take a look at the "What to put into each national Catalog of cuisine" section of [[Talk:Catalog of Chinese cuisine]]. There are now at least a dozen of these Catalogs, with the Italian and Chinese ones particularly expanding rapidly. But there are important questions to be resolved, I think, before we go much further, and your thoughts on them would be very welcomed. Thanks! [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 12:16, 4 August 2007 (CDT)


==metadata==
:::::::If my guess goes into the right direction, this would also indicate that none of the CZ regulars edits CZ via a browser with active Alexa toolbar. My next guess, then, would be that many of the users of these toolbars also contribute to WP - yet another (though certainly minor) reason why the two projects fare differently in terms of commonly used traffic stats.


Larry before i start changing all the templates here is what I propose  (see [[Template:Metadata/Anthropology]]).  So not only getting rid of the info part in the template name but switching the order too.  This make it more clear that this is a metadata template with anthopology data. As opposed to [[Template:Anthropology/Metadata]] that some would confuse as a subpage of anthropology, which it is definitely not. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 13:48, 4 August 2007 (CDT)
:::::::In terms of whether one person could have such a visible effect: "reach" (dunno exactly what this signifies, but perhaps the number of different IPs accessing the site) has not changed during that period but "rank" and "page views" did, so I think it is possible. And if you ''really'' wanna know, it would be easy to do an experiment of this sort: Matt could choose a few of the regulars and ask them (perhaps better in private) to use such toolbars (perhaps not always but following a suitable protocol) when editing CZ for the next four weeks or so, and after this period, their identity could be revealed and the observed pattern in the graph compared to their activity on the wiki (alternatively, if we all trust him, he could write a report without revealing the identities). But we may have more pressing things to do... --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 03:00, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
:I don't think it is possible to use [[Template:Metadata/Anthropology]], we'll have to use [[Template:Anthropology/Metadata]]. The trick i used for the sub-subpages does not work unless anthropology (or article name) goes first in the template name. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 02:32, 6 August 2007 (CDT)


OK, very good.  Not surprisingly, you didn't need my input to make progress.  :-)  Sorry for the delayed reply--I've been away from the Internet entirely for the last 2.5 days.  So, have the info pages been renamed then? --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 04:19, 6 August 2007 (CDT)
== Trying to understand ==
:I was waiting for your thoughts before forging ahead with actually renaming them. I'll go ahead and do it. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 08:03, 6 August 2007 (CDT)


== Talk pages ==
Hi, Larry: I note that [[:CZ:Proposals/New]] lists three New proposals. I also note that [[:CZ:Proposals/Editorial Council]] lists Active proposals before the Editorial Council (many of which have been sitting there over six months).
Larry, I see that yet another of my replies [to inaccurate and time-wasting comments] on the Talk page of Race has been removed on the grounds of civility. There is really very little point in having experts on CZ if we have to pretend that our opinions are no better than anyone else's. My personal solution to this problem will be not to discuss on Talk pages, as this is a waste of time and effort which would be better spent on writing the article. --[[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 06:25, 6 August 2007 (CDT)


==streamlining categories==
* How does a New proposal get to be an Active proposal?
* Also, why are those Active proposals still sitting there without the Editorial Council being notified to vote on them?
* Who is responsible for moving Active proposals to a vote?
* And who is responsible for moving New proposals to Active proposals?


I have turned my mind to the category placement. Is there any real difference between [[:Category:Philosophy_Checklisted_Articles]] and [[:Category:Philosophy Workgroup]]. I understand that is not the case now but it should be in the future. In the ideal world (all fossil categories removed from the articles, subpage template placed automatically on all new mainspace pages and all categories automatically placed by that template) they will represent the same set of articles in CZ. How do we currently generate the list of unchecklisted articles.  Would it get messed up if i removed the check list categories and replaced them with workgroup categories?  [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 10:03, 6 August 2007 (CDT)
I'm not complaining ... I'm just trying to understand how the proposal system works and you are the only one I thought could explain it to me. Many thanks in advance, [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 09:07, 4 February 2009 (UTC)


Yes, in the future, they should be the same, because all articles assigned to the Philosophy Workgroup should be checklisted. I agree with your reasoning.
:I'm a little confused as well. My understanding is that as Secretary of the Editorial Council, I become responsible for moving these into the process once introduced, but, after they have been, it is the role of the (currently vacant, I believe) Proposals Manager (or Driver?) to making sure they progress. The role of the Secretary is, other than certain technical details when the Proposal is newly submitted, to be the parliamentary authority for that procedure. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 12:21, 4 February 2009 (UTC)


But remove the checklist categories now?  Let's see.  If you were to remove the checklisted articles categories, those categories would become effectively useless.  Now, the reason we had them was so that people could track our progress in compiling checklisted articles.  But, strictly speaking, it seems pointless--except for the overarching category [[:Category:Checklisted Articles]], since that represents all article statuses.  Of course, after this category is automatically generated by the template and placed on all articles, then it can be renamed [[:Category:Articles]].  Anyway, since Aleks has been compiling a list of unchecklisted articles, and I think (??) his script doesn't make use of any "checklisted" categories of ours, I don't think any "checklisted x" categories serve any purpose...of course, I could be wrong, especially since I'm worn out...
::I saw [[CZ:Proposals/All|this list]] yesterday.  I'm willing to devote some time to these proposals.  [[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 15:20, 4 February 2009 (UTC)


I'm having to take a rest from my vacation.  I should be back in action tomorrow. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 11:59, 6 August 2007 (CDT)
Milt, thanks for asking.  Many of your questions about how the proposals system is ''supposed'' to work are answered on [[Archive:Proposals/Policy]].  But we've been falling down on the job here with our proposals system.  The system is meant to be a combination of bottom-up (people making proposals) and top-down (other people if necessary take over proposals as "drivers," and a Proposals Manager.  But, no doubt because many people have lost interest, our Proposals Manager, Jitse Niesen, appears to have lost interest, and I have failed to follow up myself (I'm supposed to be managing him). But, especially with an active (or newly active) Proposals Manager, the system can still move forward. I've just e-mailed Jitse.
:I'll talk with Aleks but we can leave it as is for now.  The beauty of this system is that all these changes can be made at a later date without having to change any of the articles or the placement of the templates. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 12:17, 6 August 2007 (CDT)
:: Roughly, unchecklisted articles are compiled by subtracting Checklisted_Articles from Special:Allpages, no "checklisted x" is used. Anyway, the script  can be adjusted to the system when it changes (placement of categories etc). I'm trying to follow -- so I'm here ;-) -- but please let me know if there are innovations. [[User:Aleksander Stos|Aleksander Stos]] 12:41, 6 August 2007 (CDT)
:::Always innovations ;) here is a brief synopsis of wht i'm thinking. Place all categories on the article page. Get rid of checklist and replace with workgroup aritcles and articles category (these were formerly placed manually). One option I'm mulling is a watchlist category.  This is placed on all subpages, the article and draft as well as the article talk page and the Draft talk page. The watch list categories can then be used as workgroup watchlists. I'm sure these ideas will change as we progress. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 13:14, 6 August 2007 (CDT)


== Gublist page ==
Answering some more specific items Milt above:


See [[CZ:Buglist]] for the primary setup.--[[User:Robert W King|Robert W King]] 13:21, 7 August 2007 (CDT)
''> How does a New proposal get to be an Active proposal? ''


Great! Thanks! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 14:15, 7 August 2007 (CDT)
A complete proposal needs to be made, i.e., not just the yellow box, but the page that comes up when you click on the "Complete proposal" link. If this is done and the proposal is in order, according to the system, the Proposals Manager is supposed to move the proposal to the appropriate proposal list page.


==Timelines vs Tables==
''> Also, why are those Active proposals still sitting there without the Editorial Council being notified to vote on them? ''
Hey Larry,
I noticed you moved the article [[International Space Station/Timelines]] to [[International Space Station/Tables]]. The reason I had this information under Timelines is because it is arranged chronologically, giving a "timeline" of the construction and the crews to the space station. As far as I can tell from [[CZ:Supbage Pilot]] the Timelines subpage is still standard. Are you sure this data belongs better in "Tables" rather than "Timelines"? [[User:Carl Jantzen|Carl Jantzen]] 14:25, 7 August 2007 (CDT)


Yes, for the simple reason that it's not just a timeline. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 23:37, 7 August 2007 (CDT)
Because nobody has made them into full-blooded resolutions yet.  All Editorial Council resolutions need sponsors.  The mere fact that a proposal appears on [[CZ:Proposals/Editorial Council]] does not make it automatically a resolution (though perhaps it should).  If they have sponsors, proposals can be converted into resolutions very easily, in an almost perfunctory way. See [[Archive:Proposals/Policy#Decisionmaking_groups|this section]].


==Content is from Wikipedia?==
''> Who is responsible for moving Active proposals to a vote?''
Also, one thing that I've noticed about CZ that concerns me somewhat is the apparent lax attitude toward GFDL compliance. I regularly  run across articles that clearly have elements from Wikipedia in them, yet the WP box is not checked. When you moved the Timeline page mentioned above I noticed one possible cause for this: when a WP-checked page is moved, the new page doesn't have the WP-box checked. I feel strongly that however you decide to license CZ-original articles, it is very, very important that all WP-derived articles are released under the GFDL, respecting the wishes of the original contributers. It seems to me, then, that it is equally important that we enforce using the WP box for all articles. Maybe as a first step the software should be updated to keep the WP box checked when moving pages? [[User:Carl Jantzen|Carl Jantzen]] 14:25, 7 August 2007 (CDT)


:: Carl, first, for the latter feature, you can put in a feature request at [[CZ:Bug reports]] (actually, we need a separate page for feature requests); but don't hold your breath, as this is a volunteer organization, as you know.
It depends on the type of proposal.  Again, see [[Archive:Proposals/Policy#Decisionmaking_groups|this section]], and bear in mind that not all decisions may be made by vote, though many will be.


:: You are simply incorrect that we have a "lax attitude toward GFDL compliance."  I don't recall encountering a single person on CZ who actually knew of the requirement of checking the box who evinced a "lax attitude." --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 23:35, 7 August 2007 (CDT)
''> And who is responsible for moving New proposals to Active proposals?''


:: P.S. Please do continue this on the forums, if you like. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 23:36, 7 August 2007 (CDT)
The Proposals Manager.


:Carl, there is certainly no lax attitude about the matter among the constabulary and, as best I can tell, frequent contributors and Wikipedians.  Please, as you see the problem, fix it and place a brief note on the talk page to that effect.  That'd be great.
Now from Howard:


:Larry, as an important redundancy, we should extend the article checklist to have a Y or N on whether there is content from WP.
''> My understanding is that as Secretary of the Editorial Council, I become responsible for moving these into the process once introduced,''


:&nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 14:49, 7 August 2007 (CDT)
Here are what the rules say.  From [[Archive:Proposals/Policy#Decisionmaking_groups]], speaking only about ''Editorial Council'' proposals (not other kinds): "If the driver is not a Council member, and no Council member is ready to sponsor the proposal/issue and make it into a resolution, then e-mail the Secretary of the Council (Howard C. Berkowitz). The Secretary then has the responsibility of posting (if necessary) repeated calls for sponsorship. If no Council member will sponsor the resolution after three calls, it may be considered declined."
::On a slightly related note, I think there should be something done to discourage the importing of WP articles anyway. That would solve this problem all together.--[[User:Robert W King|Robert W King]] 14:51, 7 August 2007 (CDT)
:::These suggestions would be good to take to the Forums--and I'd like to see actual arguments for what you propose, Steve and Robert. Neither of these suggestions is just ''obviously'' a good idea... --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 23:35, 7 August 2007 (CDT)


==Hi==
Other than that, the Secretary of the Editorial Council has no responsibility here.


Thanks for the notes.  What I'm doing is going back and getting my original contributions prior to wikipedia editors etc. getting hold of them so they should be ok.  I understood that if they are my original work then I do not have to check the wikipedia box?  The hominin article is original - I wrote it today. I will strive to maintain them to the best of my ability.  I was kind of horrified to see how much is missing in the Anthropology/Paleontology area when I created internal links, but what I will try to do is get these missing spaces going by filling in the red links wiht articles as time permits.
''> but, after they have been, it is the role of the (currently vacant, I believe) Proposals Manager (or Driver?) to making sure they progress.''


[[User:Lee R. Berger|Lee R. Berger]] 07:07, 10 August 2007 (CDT)
I don't think Jitse has actually resigned. We'll find out soon enough.


Excellent, thanks!  Sounds like you understand very well.  I just added [[CZ:WP2CZ#Are_you_the_main_author_of_that_Wikipedia_article.3F|this]] as your case is very far from being unique.  And thanks very much for [[hominini]].  See [[CZ:New Article of the Week]]. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 07:19, 10 August 2007 (CDT)
''> The role of the Secretary is, other than certain technical details when the Proposal is newly submitted, to be the parliamentary authority for that procedure.''


==Hominini or Hominin==
I'd have to look, but strictly speaking the Secretary is the head of the Rules Committee (currently consisting of...drumroll please...you), which is the parliamentary authority, but it is the Chair that ultimately decides the interpretation of rules.  The Secretary has nothing whatsoever to do with the rules governing the Proposals System, which is a project-wide system governed ultimately by little ol' me (with input from the Executive Committee).
*Morning Larry - I actually agree it should be Hominin, but when I typed that in it redirected me to Hominini and I was new at the time.... I have planned to write a short [[hominid]] article that would review the use of the term - for completeness I would think -unless you think an article that simply redirected to this one would be more efficient? I beleive that there certainly should be an article for [[Homo]] and each genus and species eventually e.g. [[Homo sapiens]], [[Homo erectus]] etc.  I guess one of the things that attracts me to a web-based encyclopedia of this nature is that eventually one could review all of human knowledge in one place and that really is something.  Is that the basic philosophy you are going for?  I'm busy working up the [[Primate]] article now and by bracketing every genus and species was hoping that some clever primatologist would pick one or two and fill these in.  Is that the way to go?
[[User:Lee R. Berger|Lee R. Berger]] 07:18, 11 August 2007 (CDT)


I was just asking questions, I don't presume to have opinions about them.  I would say redirect [[hominini]] to [[hominin]].  You can do this yourself using the "move" tab.  Definitely the idea is that one can review or sum up all of human knowledge; that's what an encyclopedia does, after all, right?  But with [[CZ:Subpage Pilot]] we aim to have more information than what is contained in a traditional encyclopedia--it will be, instead, a collection of all sorts of reference information. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 08:08, 11 August 2007 (CDT)
As usual, this is all revisable, none of this is written in stone, and some of it will certainly have to change with some things we've been talking about in the forums recently.
:I thought a hominini was like a panini, only with more cheese.--[[User:Robert W King|Robert W King]] 08:13, 11 August 2007 (CDT)


==Write-a-Thon==
And from Russell:
Hi Larry--Left a comment over at [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/CZ_Talk:Monthly_Write-a-Thon Write-a-Thon talk page] and want to let you know I am going to send you an email about that PR stuff we started talking about last month.--[[User:Ian Johnson|Ian Johnson]] 08:06, 11 August 2007 (CDT)


Ok dokey --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 08:08, 11 August 2007 (CDT)
''> I'm willing to devote some time to these proposals.  [[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]]''


:Email sent to sanger -at -citizendium dot org
Hi Russell, thanks for your offer--do you mean you're willing maybe to take over as a driver of several proposals, or perhaps even Proposals Manager?


== Comparison graph ==
>>>>I mean that I'll look at them, try to resuscitate some.  Proposals' Manager?  Let me sleep on that one..... [[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 19:56, 4 February 2009 (UTC)


I know that the statistics page is updated every month or so.  What is your opinion that we might be better measured against http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:WPRV ?--[[User:Robert W King|Robert W King]] 10:40, 12 August 2007 (CDT)
--[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 19:42, 4 February 2009 (UTC)


I don't understand the question...? --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 10:50, 12 August 2007 (CDT)
::A user page isn't really the place to get into this, but you had told me that the role of the Editorial Council, which I had thought was defined by [[CZ: Editor Policy#Editorial Council]], was redefined by Resolution 0001 to be limited to the approval of proposals. I believe these two sources are not reconciled, but, if the Proposal System is not under the Editorial Council, then I have difficulty understanding what responsibilities, if any, actually reside with the Editorial Council. [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 19:49, 4 February 2009 (UTC)


==Just checking==
::::I think you must have misunderstood me, or I said something confusing myself--or quite possibly both.  However that is, the fact is that there is a difference between a proposal in the Proposals System, on the one hand, and a Resolution that is before the Editorial Council, on the other.  I think this is very clear from the combination of [[Archive:Proposals/Policy]] and [[CZ:Editorial Council Rules of Procedure]].  As to what responsibilities reside with the Editorial Council, please examine those two documents as well as [[CZ:Editor Policy#Editorial Council]].  And I hope there's no reason to "get into" anything at all here.  Please just read the documents themselves, and if you have any quick questions, I'll be happy to answer them here to the best of my ability.  If you have any objection, deeply insightful or constitutional or otherwise, the forum would probably be the best place for that. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 19:58, 4 February 2009 (UTC)


Just wanted to check that I havn't weighed in too early without enough experience (re: forum discussion on accreditation) - this is your baby and I am a very big (but new) admirer of the freedom of info. principle - please tell me if I've gone to far and I'll stick to adding articles and pics!
:::::Larry, have you had any luck contacting Jitse regarding the logjam in the processing of proposals? Or has anyone else offered to serve as the Proposals Manager? I am sure you agree that something simply has to be done to clear up that logjam. Regards, [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 23:16, 8 February 2009 (UTC)


[[User:Lee R. Berger|Lee R. Berger]] 12:35, 12 August 2007 (CDT)
::::::Milt, I've tried again by e-mail earlier today--let's wait a bit more.  I agree completely about the logjam.  I'm sorry for my own failure to break it up. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 03:46, 9 February 2009 (UTC)


Well, I don't think there are any real experts on this stuff; we are still learning, and many things have never been tried. I am doctrinaire about only a few things, and as you'll discover, I like to try out a lot of things, and they don't always work. Also, please don't be offended if I don't always reply instantly.  I have many things going at once and sometimes this means that some things slip... --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 12:49, 12 August 2007 (CDT)
::::::Larry, I don't mean to be a pest ... but the proposal logjam really must be cleared. As a member of the Editorial Council, I know that we haven't been asked to vote on a proposal for many months now. Surely, if Jitse were going to respond, he would have done so by now. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 05:48, 21 February 2009 (UTC)


==Subpages==
:::::::Milt, sorry...you are right. Jitse did respond and said he would be happy if someone would take over for him.  We just need to make a call for volunteers on that front... --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 15:09, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
I must have missed the change - was using the New York City example you sent me previously. Oh well, once more we go...--[[User:Ian Johnson|Ian Johnson]] 13:45, 12 August 2007 (CDT)


== subpage ==
:::::::Don't wait for me.  I had started looking over some proposals but I'm in a fit of grading right now and don't see where I'll have more than a few hours a week for CZ until May.  But, Milt's right, we should get moving on things.  Could there be an easy form to turn a proposal into a resolution?  [[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 02:15, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


Thanks for your comments on my "essentials" subpage. BTW, I moved it to my userspace and finally put some  thoughts in answer, you may see it [[User talk:Aleksander Stos/ComplexNumberEssentials|here]]. Shall work on it further towards a more concrete proposition of a subpage (now I'm pretty convinced it'd be really needed). [[User:Aleksander Stos|Aleksander Stos]] 15:31, 13 August 2007 (CDT)


Let me know, please, when you've got it in a subpage proposal form.  It seems like a very useful feature. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 15:39, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
==Kid's pages==


== Workgroup for ''kilt'' atricle ==
Larry, I thought that you might find a new page that I am working on of interest:


As promised, I have posted some thoughts on this topic on the [[Talk:Kilt|Talk page]] of the article in question. It includes a proposal for expanding the scope of the Topic Informants WG to handle this and other similar WG conundrums.
[[USA education, preschool]]


[[User:James F. Perry|James F. Perry]] 16:25, 14 August 2007 (CDT)
Not sure about how to classify it besides the fact that it is education. I did not want to just call it Preschool, because there is items in there that are USA centered (US History people, US Holidays, etc.), but I don't have a problem with other copying the page and modifying it for other countries.


OK, thanks --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 22:21, 14 August 2007 (CDT)
Also, are you in charge of maintaining the MediaWiki code?  If so, is there the possability to set things up so that images can be directly referenced from Wikipedia commons?  I want to add images to articles, but I am not interested in downloading them from Wikipedia to just upload them here, especially if I would be required to find all contact info, licenses, etc.  I know that I am being lazy, but I am also being honest.
==Caves in Geography workgroup==


I am thinking of adding all of these fossil localities into the Geography workgroup.  Your thoughts? Also, at what stage will we add a paleontology work group if ever?
My main gripe with Wikipedia was that there is images ( and content) that I don't think children should have access to, but they have a great selection of images.  So I would like to work on Gallery pages for this site. [[User:Melissa Newman|Melissa Newman]] 13:58, 13 February 2009 (UTC)


[[User:Lee R. Berger|Lee R. Berger]] 12:07, 15 August 2007 (CDT)
Melissa, first, by all means, please do compile galleries here--we love them. And since you ask: I'm not in charge of maintaining the MediaWiki code, and frankly I don't think there would be a lot of support for leaning on Wikipedia's servers in the way you suggest, especially because we ''do'' require the contact information; we're trying to be good Citizens in every sense, you see.


:I don't know when the workgroup might be formed.  I'll definitely be giving more thought to that soon, though.  I don't know if geographers know or care much about caves.  Speleologists are geologists, i.e., Earth Scientists --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 15:42, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
But now about your preschool project.  It looks great!  But I would ask you to do two things.  The first is to move the lists to a [[CZ:Catalogs]] subpage of the preschool article, or else to the CZ: namespace (that might be better), because what you are compiling is a list of topics that preschoolers study.  Possibly [[CZ:Kiddiwiki]] or [[CZ:Kidipedia]], but I think those names might already be taken.


Well, you would know better than me, perhaps, but if the caves are geologically interesting, they would be studied by speleologists, who are geologists, and hence in the Earth Science Workgroup.  There are a lot of more specialized workgroups we've got to set up. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 13:28, 15 August 2007 (CDT)
Some topics on the list really aren't suitable as topics for CZ articles, such as "above and below."  But this isn't a problem if you are meaning to start "kid pages."  In that case, what I would have you do is write at least a brief description of the project you'd like to start, put it on the forums so people can discuss it, and then announce the proposal on Citizendium-L (or, ask me to do so), so we can get as many people as possible working on it with you.  I might contribute.  I do quite a bit of this sort of stuff for my little boy. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 20:09, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
*ok - I'll look at Earth Sciences.  I guess I was thinking about them as "places".  Palaeontology is almost certainly going to need its own workgroup as "we" love taxonomy and encyclopedic entries on obscure forms.... Another one that seems to pop up here is a subcategory workgroup on "animals" aka the dog discussion of a few days ago.  Right now every species of animal is going to fall under the general workgroup of biology but just wait until the mountain of zoologists descend upon this website!


[[User:Lee R. Berger|Lee R. Berger]]
P.S. my comment from yesterday on [[Talk:USA education, preschool]]. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 20:10, 13 February 2009 (UTC)


**I should have used the term "herd" of zoologists....
:Larry, please excuse me for getting into this ... but I thought the following post by Melissa in the Forums a few days ago might better explain her idea about getting images from Wikimedia Commons:
<blockquote>
I had recently installed a personal MediaWiki, so I have recently played around with the LocalSettings.php file. There are variables that are easy to setup to allow accessing images on http://commons.wikipedia.org.  Is it possible to get this setup, so we can add Commons images to our articles? Here is the code:<BR><BR>
  $wgForeignFileRepos[] = array(<br>
  'class'                  => 'ForeignAPIRepo',<br>
  'name'                    => 'shared',<br>
  'apibase'                => 'http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/api.php',<br>
  'fetchDescription'        => true, // Optional<br>
  'descriptionCacheExpiry'  => 43200, // 12 hours, optional<br>
  'apiThumbCacheExpiry'    => 43200, // 12 hours, optional, but required for local thumb caching );
<BR><BR>
I have tested this on my personal Wiki and it works.  I am not sure for a high traffic site like this what other variables will need to be set. <BR><BR>
Melissa Newman</blockquote>


[[User:Lee R. Berger|Lee R. Berger]] 13:46, 15 August 2007 (CDT)
Also, see [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/User_talk:Milton_Beychok#Images Here] where both Chris Day and I felt it would sure make life easier to get images from Commons much more easily than can be done now. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 22:10, 13 February 2009 (UTC)


Right--actually, I think we could potentially increase the number of specialists here if we had more specialized workgroups.  But we don't want to create a "ghost town" effect by creating zillions of groups that have no one in them. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 15:42, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
:OK, I will reply there. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 00:57, 14 February 2009 (UTC)


==Priority list in Anthropology Workgroup ==
===Catalog vs. curriculum===
I understand the concept that people want the list of article names on a sub-page.  I understand the concept of a catalog.  The only problem that I have with that name is that most people who would be interested in the information that I would be creating in the format that I am creating would be looking for the information under the name curriculum.  Even if the concept of a catalog is the same thing, the terminology is not the terminology used in the field.  A list of topics on what is taught in a grade level is called a curriculum.  If you are talking about several years of schooling in one or more subjects it is called a sequence.  It might also be referred to as a list of topics.


I have added a Priority List to the the [[CZ:Anthropology Workgroup]] - with the hope of getting some of the major headings in our field at least at the developed state.  Is this ok?  I'm off to Madagascar for two weeks so if this is not in line just delete what I added (or move it) and I'll discuss it in further detail with you and the anthro editors when I get back on-line.
If I saw catalog under Preschool, I would expect to find a list of merchants, books, or apparateuses that would help me to teach a preschooler the curriculum.  Bibliography is a list of books and possibly tapes and movies.  But I would not expect to find ETA Cuisenaire (a company that makes educational apparatuses) listed there or Carolina science (a company that sells science equipment).


[[User:Lee R. Berger|Lee R. Berger]] 01:04, 21 August 2007 (CDT)
Maybe the problem is that I have never seem a catalog page like the ones that you are creating on this wiki. When I get a catalog in the mail, it is a list of items that I can buy or a list of companies that I can buy from.


I think it's exactly the sort of thing we need on those workgroup homepages.  Thanks! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 15:43, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
[[User:Melissa Newman|Melissa Newman]] 17:33, 15 February 2009 (UTC)


==Ireland==
::Melissa, I may be wrong but I believe that you can name a subpage "Curriculum" if you so wish. Contact Chris Day who is our subpage guru. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 19:31, 15 February 2009 (UTC)


Good luck with that! Are you speaking in a University or does the institute have its own convention center? I go to Trinity so I might actually go along if its near the city center (The college is right in the heart of the city). Whats the topic? [[User:Denis Cavanagh|Denis Cavanagh]] 08:58, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
::::Melissa, your argument is an argument for scrapping the name "Catalog" altogether, which I'm actually sympathetic with (in favor of "Tables"). Please see [[CZ:Catalogs]] and [[CZ:Subpages]] if you haven't yet.  I do not encourage ad hoc names for subpages; standardization of information types is a good thing and we should stick to it as much as possible.


I don't know the answers to either question.  My impression was that the Institute of European Affairs was an independent entity with its own offices, but I don't know.  While I'm not sure of the topic, it is almost certain to have something to do with the politics of online communities, which is also the topic of my new book. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 09:02, 23 August 2007 (CDT)
::::All this being said, again I have to ask what the purpose of this whole effort is.  If (1) it is ''merely'' to develop a list of topics of interest for preschool education, then a Catalog is ''exactly'' the right place to put it, under our current system, and your frustration will then be with the ''name'' for the information type we have (alternatively described as a table, information summary, compendium, almanac, or catalog).  But if (2) it is instead to develop a new system kid pages, such pages really belong either in another namespace (my off-the-cuff preference, subject to more cogitation and discussion) or possibly in a new subpage type (not so good, for a variety of reasons). Could you clarify if you want to do (1) or (2), or something else? --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 01:06, 16 February 2009 (UTC)


:Larry, when are you speaking there?  The organisation I work for has membership of the IEA, so I can try to go along. [[User:Anton Sweeney|Anton Sweeney]] 04:40, 3 September 2007 (CDT)
:::::Larry, please excuse me for entering this conversation and I promise not to interrupt again after this.  However,  [[CZ:Article-specific subpages]] indicates fairly clearly that we may create article-specific subpages ... does it not? Or am I missing something? [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 04:24, 16 February 2009 (UTC)


It's Sept. 28. I don't know any other details... --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 07:28, 3 September 2007 (CDT)
::::::That was written as part of a proposal, it has not been discussed in detail and certainly not been to the editorial council. Obviously I disagree with Larry on this point :) ([[CZ:Proposals/Should_we_allow_article_specific_subpages%3F|I wrote the proposal]]), and I could expand on my reasons but this is not the place. I might add that after an extended discussion I could see the idea in a new light. The idea was precipitated from a comment about usability on [[User_talk:Petréa_Mitchell/Archive2|Petréa Mitchell's talk page]] that was precipitated by [[User:Petréa_Mitchell/A_Plea_For_Usability#Changes_that_can_enhance_usability|an essay]] that Petréa wrote. In short, it is not official. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 04:41, 16 February 2009 (UTC)


==Scarborough Castle==
:::::::By golly, let's get it in front of the Council sooner rather than later! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 05:32, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for nominating [[Scarborough Castle|this]] for the new draft of the week. Work still in progress, but done from scratch mostly by a Scarborian in Scarborough (until I go back to Japan). I think this (new) article of the week thing has been a great success. [[User:John Stephenson|John Stephenson]] 12:12, 24 August 2007 (CDT)


You're very welcome.  Yes, I think it's been a success, too! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 15:43, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
:::::::: I vote 100% a million times over for a separate namespace for a student encyclopedia.  As for if there should be a separate one for children and students, I will leave that final decision to you as "Editor-in-Chief".  I think that it can go either way.  Now going into begging mode ... pretty please with cherries on top and marshmallow topping setup a separate namespace for students!  I promise to put my name on the workgroup.  [[User:Melissa Newman|Melissa Newman]] 21:22, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::Just to be clear I think these are two distinct issues. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 21:25, 17 February 2009 (UTC)


==Space Debris==
::::::::::Chris--agreed.  Melissa--starting a whole new (complementary, but also rather different) project is another issue that certainly has to come before the Editorial Council. In the meantime, I think continuing to discuss the general concept, and figuring out both what would be best according to general editorial requirements, and according to the existing community's preferences, would be a good way to spend some time...
Hey Larry, you commented a couple of weeks ago that the "significant debris impact events" section was missing from our [[space debris]] article. I just wanted to let you know that I've re-incorporated information on two verifiable impact events (the CERISE satellite and the woman in Oklahoma) and added a couple of more from my own research. The information is in the Dangers section. Let me know what you think. --[[User:Carl Jantzen|Carl Jantzen]] 22:43, 25 August 2007 (CDT)


Cool, thanks! Well done--seems more professional than what I remember from the WP article. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 15:45, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
::::::::::Actually, come to think of it, what we really need to do is feel out the CZ community and other potentially interested parties to see if there is enough interest in actually starting up the project.  The very last thing I want to do is start a project that there just won't be enough people to support. I would put out some feelers myself, to gauge interest, but...ugh, I don't have time right now! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 21:48, 17 February 2009 (UTC)


::Thanks Larry. I think the article is almost ready for approval, but as far as I can tell there aren't any active astronomy editors. Do you have a suggestion for how I could go about getting it approved? --[[User:Carl Jantzen|Carl Jantzen]] 15:51, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
:::::::::::Here is a summary of things I have already written on the forums. I like the idea of a new namespace with a different unique header, to separate the projects.  In that way a distinct subpages structure can be used (it could even have vertical tabs). I think workgroups should not have a role but I could see a role for K12 specific subgroups for CZ authors with an interest in contributing to both projects. I like the idea of limited links between the projects (possibly a tab on CZ articles when a K12 version exists in the other namespace).  One technical issue is that the hyperlinks in the K12 namespace should automatically be restricted to that namespace rather than linking to main space. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 22:10, 17 February 2009 (UTC)


Try "e-mail this user" to some of the editors. They may not be active now, but this is a way to get them active. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 16:07, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
:::::::::::Chris, what effect would your proposal of a new namespace have on our servers? Even with my high-speed cable service, CZ is maddeningly slow very often. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 22:39, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
::::::::::::I have no clue. I wonder if the slowness might be due to the subpages template drawing too many resources. The sooner the subpages structure is hard wired the better but as a non-programmer I don't even know what is possible. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 22:56, 17 February 2009 (UTC)


==Template:R==
::::Sorry, I brought out the indent, because it was going too far inwards.
Is there any way to have Template:R elegantly handle article redirects or plurals of words? at [[User:Carl_Jantzen/Sandbox]] I'm using the template for both "rocket" and "rockets". The way I got the definition to display properly for rockets was by making Def Rockets a redirect to Def Rocket. The only problem with this solution is that whenever a page is redirected a second redirect must be created by hand for the definition template. Is there a way to make the template check to see if the article is being redirected, and if it is to also re-direct the template? --[[User:Carl Jantzen|Carl Jantzen]] 10:24, 27 August 2007 (CDT)


Why do you want "rockets" to display at all? Why not just [[rocket]]? That's the name of the article, isn't it? (Are there two articles?) --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 10:27, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
::::First, the technical answer about the slowness.  This is most likely due to the fact that the pages are not accessed that often, so they are always being processed.  I think that there is a way to say that all of the pages in a certain namespace should be generated into cache.  Look at the programs in the maintenance directory of the source code.  The expiry of those pages can also be set to be a longer time period than the main pages (for example, a year unless we know that they are changed.  If the sub-pages are always generated automatically, then there is going to be slowness issue. But again, if the pages are cached as html, there should not be an issue. Everything goes back to the cache and the expiry of the cache. There are also several different versions of cache, but I have never personally played around with a cache server.


::[[Space Debris/Related Articles]] looks and sounds better if the term is "rockets" rather than "rocket", because there are more than one of them in orbit. So yes, the article should be named "rocket", but the link should be "rockets". It's like how MediaWiki lets you write <nowiki>[[rocket]]s</nowiki> but the link will still display as [[rocket]]s so you can use whichever form sounds better in text without having to worry about the clicker ending up on the wrong page. --[[User:Carl Jantzen|Carl Jantzen]] 10:31, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
::::Back to the discussion at hand.


I see.  Well, I disagree.  The topic name is "rocket." In the same way that we can speak of the properties of the whale, or the lion, without implying there is only one, we can list topics in the singular form without implying that there's only one of each thing. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 10:34, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
::::If you plan to put out the feelers within this specific group, the only people you are going to find that are going to express a strong interest is myself and you Larry.  I have not seen strong positives from anybody else.  The people who would be interested are not here at the current time.  The people that would be interested are currently writing their own blogs, writing their own curriculum, homeschooling their children, helping the Gutenburg project, communicating on homeschooling websites and yahoo forums, trying to start their own website without much success, or just plain given up.  People have tried to start kid specific wikis, but from what I have seen, they are just not able to build a strong enough foundation to even get their foot off the ground.  A person looks at the website and it just has the feeling of being dead.


:::: Ok, well even if it's not necessary for this particular case, I can still see this feature being useful on the wiki as a whole. As one possible example say a dozen different RA pages include <nowiki>{{r|Pittsburgh, History from 1800}}</nowiki> and we finally decide to rename all history pages so the actual article would be [[History of Pittsburgh from 1800]]. If the template was redirect-aware this wouldn't cause any problems, but as it stands this would mean manual edits to 12 different RA pages. That doesn't even take into account the edits that would need to be made to RA pages linking to New York, History from 1800, and all the other cities, states, and countries that might have history articles. This also doesn't apply just to large policy shifts in namespacing, but to changing article titles in general. It's probably something that isn't too urgent right now, but would probably be helpful in the long run. Certainly easier than changing all the links by hand or writing a bot to do it. --[[User:Carl Jantzen|Carl Jantzen]] 10:42, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
::::In any project, there is several components.  First, there is the physical source code. Second, there is the look and feel of the site.  The third is the foundation of the templates. Fourth is the foundation of the images and other media (country flags, standard medical images, historical sites of interest, pictures of works of art, audio of famous music, etc.). Fifth is the foundation of the articles.  What articles need to definitely be included and what is extra?  Britannicas children's encyclopedia (stories) has 15 volumes with about 1000 articles.  First encylopedias that I have seen have 500 at most, because what would be separate articles in another encyclopedia would be put into one article on a first encyclopedia. A student encyclopedia would have 5000 articles at most, but more likely 3000.  Although in my own database adding in idioms and stories can easily bring a hard article count to over 6,000.


Well, if I understand you correctly, I agree.  I definitely agree that redirection is going to be an ongoing maintenance problem for Related Articles pages.  It would be nice if the software were to forward not just the page, but all its subpages ''and'' the definition template.  I'm not even sure if, when I redirect [[X]], the software knows to redirect the subpage [[X/Y]]... --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 15:47, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
::::The main issue is images.  Wikipedia has a great resource of images, but they also have a bunch of image categories that are not appropriate for children.  "category:          ren"?  And that is just one example.  There is no way to filter wikipedia images, because there is logic to the categories. "Category:Missionary position" has a parent category of "category:man on top".


== Subtopics ==
::::Using any wiki for student research is not a good idea.  The foundation of student research skills should be built upon traditional sources (aka books).  Once this website is more established, will the view of this website change?  I don't really know.  I will personally go with the general view of how librarians and teachers respond to this project.


Larry, I'm a bit confused by your comment.  On [[CZ:Related Articles]] it states "x is a subtopic of y =df. discussion of x itself is necessarily also discussion of y".  I'm not sure how you discuss the Declaration of Independence, Treaty of Paris, or the Albany Plan without discussing Franklin, who was a primary contributer to all three (The Albany Plan was all his).  Are you suggesting that subtopics such as Second Continental Congress, the Pennsylvania Assembly, or Constitutional Convention are more appropriate because those were the legislative bodies he was a part of when creating these documents?
::::I like the format of how this website is setup -- a gallery page for every article.  The sub-page concept makes a nice design.


Is there a related articles page created for a person that is considered a good model to go off of?--[[User:Todd Coles|Todd Coles]] 13:13, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
::::How many levels of encyclopedia do we need?  Preschoolers: I can't see a parent reading to their child from a computer screen.  They will look at images together, and they will listen to sound together, but I have never read to my preschooler from a website.  My preschooler likes to see the picture of the bear and click on the button to hear the bear growl.  Plus, one can buy a preschool/first encyclopedia for $20 from ebay.  I think that preschoolers needs can be met through gallery pages on a different project. 


I'm not sure about an example...maybe not yet. Anyway you raise a good point, but the key word is "necessarily."  You don't ''necessarily'' have to talk about Franklin in order to describe the Declaration of Independence.  But you do necessarily have to talk about Franklin in order to describe Franklin's diplomatic mission to France.  Maybe a more helpful formulation, not necessarily perfectly equivalent to the one you quote, is that if you can imagine the article being a ''section'' of the main article, then it's a subtopic.  Well, in the Franklin article, you would not describe the D of I, you would describe ''his role'' in the D of I, and ''that'' could be a subtopic of [[Benjamin Franklin]]: BF's role in the D of I. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 15:33, 27 August 2007 (CDT)
::::Junior level: This is the story level.  The pages are presented in story format.  The images that preschoolers need, this group needs.  The images that this group needs, the next higher group needs.  So in my opinion, this group's needs can be met through a story or read-aloud sub page of the next level up.  The next level up is the student level.


== Wikipedia ==
::::Having the student encyclopedia being a sub-page of the adult pages is not a good idea, because it goes back to the original problem of images.  The images that adults need and want are going to be different than what students need and want.  There will be overlap, but there will also be differences.  The three levels of students can share a namespace, but student and adults can't share a space.


Over at Wikipedia one "Cryptographic hash" at [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&limit=500&target=Cryptographic+hash] has been adding links to CZ with favorable comments. [[User:Richard Jensen|Richard Jensen]] 03:38, 2 September 2007 (CDT)
::::Will the image issue make even sharing the same namespace an issue?  In the end, that may be true. Adults feel very strongly about not having any restrictions on their content. Children need restrictions. This is done in movies, music, magazines, stores, and a host of other areas.  To expect that not to be an issue on a website is not realistic.  Although, this website was built upon the concept of family friendliness.  Will the combination of that and gallery pages be enough of a general protection? It may take a couple of years to get an answer to that.


Nice! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 07:30, 2 September 2007 (CDT)
::::As for the catalog issue ... until the issue of where the physically place the student pages or even if they should be allowed, should be settled before the issue of catalog pages.  Changing "curriculum" to "catalog" is a one line change.  Even if I made 10 pages, it would still be a small change.  Changing where student pages are physically located is a big change.  That is why that issue should have a higher priority.


Another wikipedia heads up.  They are talking nice.  I responded, but thought you might want to keep informed [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Dinosaurs#Citizendium_dinosaur_articles]. --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 21:14, 2 September 2007 (CDT)
::::[[User:Melissa Newman|Melissa Newman]] 14:25, 18 February 2009 (UTC)


==aesthetics==
(undent more) Melissa you wrote: "''If you plan to put out the feelers within this specific group, the only people you are going to find that are going to express a strong interest is myself and you Larry. I have not seen strong positives from anybody else. ''". I think you need to look harder.  While there are those who have said they would not have any interest in participating it is not correct to say there is no support. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 15:47, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
I just moved the "?" so that felinity is not questioned.  i also added extra padding to the buttons to try and avoid the bottom being cut off. Do these changes make an difference for the better?  By the way, if PUMA is out, it seems people don't like to letters to be ordered in a pronouncable way, what is the best order? P needs to come first since it is not present on some pages. This leaves U,M and A, do you have any preference for a new order? [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 02:50, 7 September 2007 (CDT)


You know, I actually liked the little icons that you had before, more than the letters. It's not like the letters are more accessible, you know.  But anyway, the metadata page really should go first, so if P must go first, I'd say PMAU.  As to fixing the IE7 problem, why don't you force a set column width? --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 07:18, 7 September 2007 (CDT)
:::Put me on the support list. Seeing the work that Melissa has put out in the short time that she has been here, I don't doubt she can create the interest to attract others with her passion. :-) [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 03:01, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
::The heignt is the problem, but now you mention it that can probably be fixed too. What about the button location?  They seemed to be jumping right out of the template before; I tried to fix that using a <nowiki><div></nowiki>. Minamalist icons were my first choice but in the forums people seemed to think the letters were more intuitive. We can change that later. I will reorder them now. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 08:36, 7 September 2007 (CDT)


I'm using IE7 and can't really speak about that IE6 bug... --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 08:43, 7 September 2007 (CDT)
:Melissa--interesting thoughts, and we have similar goals insofar as I'm teaching my little boy a lot of things now, too, and we intend to homeschool him (basically, we already are doing so).  But, I'm puzzled--if you think there isn't going to be any interest in the project, you're declaring that the project will not succeed from the get-go, aren't you?  A community-built project requires lively interest if it is to succeed.


== Suggest additions to 'Unused subpages' button ==
:I'd love to do this, but when I put my manager's/boss hat on, I have to wonder if we ''can.''  The quite possible lack of a quorum is one big concern.  Then, frankly, I would like to partner with a publisher, one that is also a Web publishing company with Web 2.0 experience, to create a brand new wiki.  If CZ takes this on, it will overextend me, personally, even further--and that would not be good for anybody, believe me.  Notice, Melissa, you say we need to do this, this, and that.  ''Who'' is going to do this, this, and that, or see to it that these things are done?  Who else but me?  Of course, if there were someone that I knew, who I knew I could trust to do a great job (working full time--that's what it takes to start up a new project like this), and who could take on a children's project in the CZ fold, then I might support the idea.  But I don't know of such a person.


Larry: I had this conversation with Chris Day:
:I agree that most parents of preschoolers won't look at Web pages--that idea actually seems silly to me, on consideration.  Instead, there needs to be individual pages, something like what you see on http://www.brillkids.com/ -- PowerPoint-type presentations.  I've actually toyed with the idea of somehow partnering with BrillKids on a little kid's encyclopedia.  The entries would take the form of multimedia slideshows.  What they are doing at present is, frankly, pretty low-quality, and it is derivative of the work of Glenn Doman, which in my nonexpert opinion has some problems.


[[Life/Draft]] has appendixes, which I would like to move to one or more subpages.  On 'Unused Subpages', could we have [[Additional Content Excluded From Article Text]], or something like that?
:Finally, I agree that easy image-grabbing or -uploading is absolutely required.  New software is needed to make this as easy as possible.  Basically, there needs to be a browser extension that allows people to drag and drop images from Flickr & Wikimedia Commons.  Without this, it will be way too hard to create the articles, and the project will probably die due to the difficulty of using the MediaWiki system to host images.  This is another reason I say that we would probably have to partner with someone. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 16:46, 18 February 2009 (UTC)


--[[User:Anthony.Sebastian|Anthony.Sebastian]] [[User talk:Anthony.Sebastian|(Talk)]] 13:02, 6 September 2007 (CDT)
::Larry, the technical difficulties with images on this project are a result of the editorial decisions made by the editorial board, not technical issues.  MediaWiki allows one to include an image from a URL, upload an image from a URL, include images from wiki commons.  There is also extension on MediaWiki for importing images from flickr based on commons license.  It all goes back to the LocalSettings.php file and adding a few extensions. But as you said previously, you don't want to be bound by Wikipdia comons. As for allowing uploads by URL, it should be allowed under certain groups. For example, any author / editor of the workgroup media should have access to this feature.  Or maybe say all editors have access to this feature.  I just tried to set it up on my own MediaWiki install.  The MediaWiki part is easy.  The only snag I ran into was php curl libraries.


:We can definitely have a subpage for such material but we probably want to be a bit more specific than ''Appendix'' or ''Excluded text''. All additional subpage names need to go through the editorial council or rubber stamped by Larry. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 13:07, 6 September 2007 (CDT)
::As for who is going to be responsible.  If you want somebody full time, are you going to pay them a salary?  If you are willing to pay for a full-time editor/writer, I can get you somebody by tomorrow.  Also, which comes first, the chicken or the egg?  Do we setup the foundation and look for people or do we look for people and then setup the foundation?  I vote for setting up the foundation first.  If things really don't work out, we merge the already written articles back into the main namespace, if appropriate.  An SQL script can accomplish that in a couple of minutes.  Otherwise they just get deleted.  You can also develop interest by looking at numberous startups of kid wikis.  Contact the owner and just ask them if they want to continue on their own or merge into one group. All of the usernames on the MediaWiki discussion about this topic is another source.  


::Suggest then additional entries on 'Unused subpages' button (no need for separate tab for these):
::Also, we can start the project as a namespace on this project, and then if it grows beyond this project, we can branch off into our own project.  Then we just setup a wikifarm where the links to the there wiki can have shortcuts with the same namespace as what we currently have.  This will make it a clean break.  But that would mean that we should select a namespace name that can easily be used in this type of notation.  For example, instead of having a namespace of "student", it should be "stu" or "sz", as somebody else suggested.  This is similar to wikipedia's format for foreign language pages being referenced. 


:::*"Supplementary text" (for appendixes; excluded sections or sub-sections; extended notes on main/draft article points, etc.);
::One other point, it is much easier to setup the foundation for a student project when one has access to the server to take advantage of server scripts and other things.  I can work on things locally, and then I can just export the articles, zip the images, and then import them to somebody who has server and sysop privileges.  I already have 6,000 articles in my personal database.  They are idioms, source text of public domain short stories (Aesop's fables, fairy tales, mythology, folklore, etc.), country articles from wikipedia, US state articles from wikipedia, and a bunch of templates for formatting.  I did not rewrite anything.  Nor have I added images to the database. I just linked to commons. But the foundation is there, even if the text needs to be rewritten. [[User:Melissa Newman|Melissa Newman]] 22:13, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
:::*"Brief biosketches of selected individuals referenced in main/draft article" (include links to their websites or websites focusing on them (e.g., nobel.org).


::That would allow me, for example, to move from [[Life/Draft]] the Appendixes and the Section on Exobiology, which seems anti-climactic.
===Student Citizenidum Quorum issues===
:::Melissa, could you perhaps more specifically address the more specific, core points I made in my post above?  Specifically, lack of quorum, who is going to get it started (not me), and whether it actually has any point if parents aren't going to look at wiki web pages with their kids (but need ppt or similar format). --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 01:36, 20 February 2009 (UTC)


::Will pass this on to Larry as well.
::::Sorry it took a bit for me to get back.  I need to think things over myself ... plus other things external to this.


Thanks.
::::As for who could lead it, you mentioned full time.  Volunteer and full time don't go hand in hand unless you want a retired person.  This is run by a foundation.  Wikipedia is a foundation and it has a core group of 5 people that are paid full time salary.  If you are looking for a core group that is dedicated full time, would that entail a salary?  Here is a list of people I know off the top of my head are available and will to do the job, provided there is a salary.  Some can work full time while others can work part-time to split a job.  All would jump at the change to work from home on a project like this.


Larry: Do those two additions seem ok to you, and if so, would you approve?
::::*Melissa Newman.  Graduate of Rochester Institute of Technology.  I can handle the technical oversight, organization, etc.  I have self studied educational theories and what is expected knowledge for the elementary school years.  Very experienced in low level library and detailed work.  Did software engineering work for the FDA (through other companies) -- software requirements, software design, data mapping, unit testing, and user manuals -- writing low level library code -- writing code to do data conversion/manipulation, data tagging, and data organization.
::::*Kedma Cantor.  Graduate from University of Judaism in California.  She can handle the education side.  She enjoys writing, and she has an education degree.  Plus she has experience managing schools, adult education, family educational activities, etc.
::::*Johanna Cohen.  She is trained to be a editor by her mother.  She is a graduate of Yale in Asian studies.  She is also a certified social worker.
::::*Johanna's mother.  She is an experienced editor, and a retired lawyer.
::::*Jody Green.  Certified social work and certified doula.
::::*Tzippy Shiller.  Graduate from Yale in Nursing.  Currently at home to care for a newborn baby.
::::*Friend of Kedma's that enjoys story writing.


--[[User:Anthony.Sebastian|Anthony.Sebastian]] [[User talk:Anthony.Sebastian|(Talk)]] 12:16, 7 September 2007 (CDT)
::::Plus, if I spread the word to homeschooling boards, I could get 10 more people easily.


Thanks very much for asking.  This is very puzzling, actually.  I know what you're trying to do, but I'm not quite sure how to approach it.  So I'm inclined to take each appendix individually and think of how to include the material.  Appendix A strikes me as a sort of extended footnote.  Its context is the article itself, as it is titled, "Other characteristics shared by all living things."  If we were to put it on a subpage, it would lose this context, because subpages are not so closely connected to the parent article.  So I would frankly leave it where it is.  Appendix B is different, however.  "Selected definitions of life" strikes me as a "catalog" and so would go on a Tables subpage (or, if we'll be switching them soon, as I think we will, a Catalogs subpage).  "The gray zone" is interesting, and I don't know why you wouldn't want to include it in the article itself, but if not, I'm comfortable leaving it at the bottom of the article as Appendix B.  Another option, however, is to make it a separate article altogether.  I'm not sure how you would title it or identify the topic, though.
::::I think that we have two different visions for a this project.  Power point is used to entertain.  I am interested in creating a tool that parents would have confidence in.  This is similair to the concept that Wikipedia is a tool.   


There is good sense, I think, to leaving appendixes at the bottom of the article.  Again, just as with references (endnotes), they are not contextualized properly if they aren't very closely connected with the article itself.  But if you're very enamored of the idea of making them into subpages, I would actually be inclined simply to use "Appendixes" as the subpage type.  We just have to be very careful to define appendixes as (1) prose text, which (2) specifically supplements the material in the encyclopedia article.  If you want to do that, I could get behind it. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 12:39, 7 September 2007 (CDT)
::::The project that you are envisioning, ppt presentations, flash, and other entertainment would be best to partner with Webkinz (http://www.webkinz.com)  That is the current "in" website for children 6 - 13.  It is cartoonish, flashy, fun, etc.  It is also safe.  There is chat and email, but it is controlled.  For example, a child can type in "boy" and "friend", but not "boy friend".  This restriction is due to the fact that the makers of the website believe that children under 13 should not be talking about boyfriends through email and chat.  Plus there is restrictions to prevent the giving out of person info (phone, address, etc.).  Plus the entertainment part of the website is made up of rooms.  It would be very easy for them to make up a room called "library" that could contain educational videos on a variety of topics or it could even have simple encyclopedia articles that could be read to the child.  The goal would be fun research as opposed to the more serious research that would come with school reports.  If a child wants to take their webkinz on vacation, they could take them to France as opposed to just some generic island or cruise ship.  Then they could learn about France by looking at the travel brochure.  On a Presidential election day, the webkinz could go and vote.  Once the project goes into the webkinz world, the ideas could be endless.


::::But that is a whole project in itself.  The images and sound would be handled by Webkinz the company (if it is not broke, don't fix it), and the content would have to handled by true professional experts, aka Master's in Elementary Education.  It is a valid project, very useful, worth the investment, but not what I am envisioning.


One solution is to treat each appendix as a signed article and have the appendixes subpage as a contents page.  However, part of the problem here is that the subpage materials really do represent apeendix-like material so I think this might be a bit confusing. I do agree that the first appendix seems to be a good fit in the article itself. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 14:24, 7 September 2007 (CDT)
::::What I an envisioning is a useful tool for students.  Due to the nature of a wiki, I would envision it more to be a starting point in doing research than an ending point.  If we make the valid assumption that teachers will not accept this site as a valid research site for 10 years, then the obvious question would be what would the value of it until it proves to be reliable?  If I was a student why would I want to go to this site?


But you don't mean that appendixes ''would'' be signed, right?  But that they would live on sub-sub-pages, like signed articles?  Yes, that's what I would say too, if so--I mean, ''if'' we had appendixes in subpages.  I agree, the other material is apt to be like so many appendixes, so the word "Appendix" is apt to be confusing.
::::My teacher gives me a report on Ancient Egypt.  What now?  It is a pretty big topic.  What are some ideas for narrowing it down?  I could write a report about the Nile River and its importance.  I could write a report about clothing and its social meaning; religion; pyramids; bible stories; King Tut; housing; slavery; customs and traditions; holidays;  A paragraph about each of these to give a general introduction would accomplish this.  A digest format would work.  Maybe even create a tab called "report ideas".


I just noticed that Anthony had two other proposals above.  Brief biosketches seem like they would be best placed on a catalogs page.  A section on exobiology should, I imagine, go in [[exobiology]], no?  I may not have all the relevant facts. :-) --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 15:54, 7 September 2007 (CDT)
::::Now that I have my topic.  I am going to need some books.  What are some good books to check out from the library?  What dewey decimal number do I look under for books? Some nice sound files of music from that period would be nice.  What about art work and other images?  What about video?  The "bibliography" or "reference" tab could handle the outside references.  The "gallery", "sound", and "video" tab could handle the non-text issues.
:Yes, you interpreted my comment correctly, they would live on the sub-sub-page.  But i do think it might be better to fit them on a more specific subpage, start a new article or leave them in the main article.  Sub-subpages are already two clicks away. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 16:23, 7 September 2007 (CDT)


I'd like to get Anthony's take. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 16:33, 7 September 2007 (CDT)
::::I envision that parents and teachers to use the website for the video, sound, and images. If the pages are formatted to print out nicely (layout is thought about instead of text just being typed), teachers could print out the text to have kids read in class.  Parents may go on it with their kids.  They could go to the animals gallery page, see the picture of the bear and click on the sound of the bear.


::Without referring to the [[Life/Draft]] article specifically, I think we improve the cluster by having, on the 'Unused subpages' button page, two additional items (subpage types):
::::I don't really think that flash and ppt are required, because a reference site is a tool to look up information.  It is not a place to go to get entertained.  It does not need to be boring, but it does not require flash and ppt.  Look at how kids encylopedia's are setup.  They are generally 2 - 8 pages with graphics, colorful layout, and one page dedicated to questions.  Some good examples are Kids Discover magazine, Backyard magazine, Scholastic weekly reader, Scholastic Children's Encyclopedia, etc.


:::*"Supplementary text" (for text that elaborates on topics in the main article);
::::The valid question that I did ask myself was, "With Encarta at the level that it is right now and it is free, do we need anything else?" The problem is that you are stuck with what the Encarta board provides and nothing more.  A parent or teacher cannot add to it. For example, both Encarta and Wikipedia have "The Crossing of the Delaware" painting, but Encarta's is smaller than wikipedia's.
:::*"Brief biosketches of selected individuals referenced in main/draft article" (include links to their websites or websites focusing on them (e.g., nobel.org; when CZ develops main articles on such persons, the biosketches could be even briefer and link to the CZ article).


::In reference to [[Life/Draft]], I can see many topics needing elaboration that would otherwise render the main article text too long and unwieldy. I would like to have a "Supplementary Text" subpage for those kinds of additions.
::::The bottom line is that everything goes back to the original issues.  Wikipedia has a whole bunch of images that are great, but due to their free form format with no controls it is not a place that most parents that understand fully what Wikipedia truly is would want their children to freely browse.


::I would also like to do brief biosketches of selected individuals referenced in the article, for whom no main article yet exists. Especially mentioning their contributions to the subject of the article. Those biosketches might stimulate authors/editors to use them as stub-stubs for prparing a main article biography.  It would stimulate me, I know.
::::Media wiki provides a way to access images without having have access to commons. This accomplished by allowing access to upload.mediawiki.org, but restricting access to commons.wikipedia.org.  The only way to take advantage of this is to create another MediaWiki website that allows images to be access that are desirable, but does not display images that are not desirable.


::I do not think we need an "Appendixes" subpage. "Supplementary text" would take the place of most material authors might put in appendixes, but main articles could still have appendixes.  I would convert most of [[Life/Draft]]'s appendixes to supplementary text, with the groups input.
::::One of your own personal goals was to create a family friendly environment.  Kids need a safe place to be able to do research. The concept of this website is great, but from the articles I have read and the feedback that I have gotten on the forums, your current set of editors are mostly college professors that are comfortable writing at a college level.


::I have already revised [[Life/Draft]]'s appendixes. Only one point needed preserving in old Appendix A, which I made as a footnote.  The "Definitions of life" appendix I think should go as supplementary text; I have found many, many more definitions by modern biologists that should be added.  Likewise, I'd put the exobiology appendix in supplentary text, until a main article gets written.
::::I have other thoughts and issues that I can talk to you about in a more private format, if you desire.  But I think that this is enough for now.  I am still continuing on things off line for right now.  [[User:Melissa Newman|Melissa Newman]] 16:55, 1 March 2009 (UTC)


::The principles of [[Life]] is to big a subject to try to contain in the main article, and not many of the elaborations needed would serve as a separate article.  --[[User:Anthony.Sebastian|Anthony.Sebastian]] [[User talk:Anthony.Sebastian|(Talk)]] 18:48, 7 September 2007 (CDT)
== Physics editorship for Paul Wormer ==


I'm sorry for the slow reply, but I've been thinking about this. It is hard for me to say "no" to an insistent editor, but when policy/precedent is established thereby, I like to be careful. I'd like to understand a few more things.
Larry, Paul Wormer wants to become a Physics Editor. In my opinion, he is eminently qualified to be one. I am sure that Daniel Mietchen would agree that Paul is very qualified to be Physics Editor. I would hazard a guess that Paul has worked on more Physics articles in CZ than anyone else.  


First, I don't really understand why you want to put biosketches on a subpage of the [[life]] page.  Why isn't it better to place them on separate articles? It's all right to have relatively brief articles; they don't all have to be as long as [[life]] itself!  (We should all live so long!)
Can you please see that Paul is made an Editor? [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 16:41, 18 February 2009 (UTC)


Second, supposing you say, for example, that it is particularly useful to have the various biosketches all collected in ''one spot,'' I am inclined to agree with you.  But then I don't understand why we wouldn't use a "catalog" for this purpose.  That is what catalogs are supposed to be: collections of summary information, typically (but perhaps not necessarily) in table form, which information might be findable in other articles, but which is greatly instructive to have gathered together in one spot.  For more consideration of the concept, see [http://forum.citizendium.org/index.php/topic,849.0.html this forum discussion] if you haven't already.
:I support the request, as previously stated [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/User_talk:Paul_Wormer#Physics_editorship on Paul's talk page]. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 13:49, 19 February 2009 (UTC)


Finally, you say: "The principles of [[Life]] is to big a subject to try to contain in the main article, and not many of the elaborations needed would serve as a separate article." In my experience on ever-growing wikis, this is a somewhat "dangerous" sort of thing to say, because you can be proven wrong so easily. Suppose experts show up who are precisely responsible for those elaborations that you say don't need a separate article, and they can explain how they need several separate articles. They might not need a separate article in an ordinary desk reference, or even a specialist reference, but CZ is not like such references. There are no restrictions, apart from maintainability, accuracy, internal coherence, and things like that, on what topics we choose.
::Guys--Paul Wormer is now a Physics Editor! In the future, however, please make your recommendation by e-mail...in case the answer has to be "no," as it sometimes does. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 14:26, 19 February 2009 (UTC)


Anyway, I hope you'll be patient with me here. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 00:04, 9 September 2007 (CDT)
== Restart of proposal system ==


== "purpose" ==
Hello. Due to a lack of activity and attention on my part, the Proposal System has ground to a halt and discussion on all proposals has stopped. I decided to clean out the system by marking all proposals as inactive and removing their drivers. This also happened to your proposals [[CZ:Proposals/Self-Correction Policy|"Self-Correction Policy"]] and [[CZ:Proposals/Pilot to allow Citizens to take credit for pages|"Pilot to allow Citizens to take credit for pages"]]. I would be delighted if you decide that you want to take one or both proposals up again. You can do this by updating the proposal record(s), which can now be found at [[CZ:Proposals/Driverless]]. Please do not hesitate to ask if anything is unclear. Yours, [[User:Jitse Niesen|Jitse Niesen]] 22:37, 23 February 2009 (UTC) (Proposals Manager)


I have long thought that Wikipedia's article titled "purpose" seems deficient in ways that could be rectified only by the attention of one schooled in philosophy.  Am I right?  Do you think that is a topic worthy of such attention?  Would you be capable of creating something better here? [[User:Michael Hardy|Michael Hardy]] 15:22, 7 September 2007 (CDT)
Hi Jitse.  That's fine--does this mean that you have decided to stay on as Proposals Manager? --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 00:24, 24 February 2009 (UTC)


I imagine if anyone has anything special to say about purpose it is philosophers; maybe psychologists, too. Purposes (or, as ethicists like to say, "projects") are what, on a popular answer, give life meaning. "Purpose" is roughly equivalent to "end" as in "end and means," which is a philosophical topic, but I'm not sure it would be discussed in that sense under the title "purpose."  Anyway, beyond these platitudes I don't have anything encyclopedic to say about it; I would have to do research myself. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 15:50, 7 September 2007 (CDT)
It means that I feel responsible for the tasks I took on. To be honest, once you know what needs to be done it's not an onerous task, as long as you keep on top of it, so I won't mind staying on. My mistake was to let it slip for a while, and then the amount of stuff that needs to be done becomes rather overbearing. I think it's fair to say that given my track record, there are better candidates out there. So if anybody wants to take it over from me, then let me know and I'll help with the transition. Otherwise, I guess I'll stay on by default. -- [[User:Jitse Niesen|Jitse Niesen]] 15:00, 24 February 2009 (UTC)


So is there someone who could do that and should they be actively recruited? [[User:Michael Hardy|Michael Hardy]] 17:39, 7 September 2007 (CDT)
As always, admirably clear.  I say let's keep you on for now, unless someone shows up and offers to take over.  You can also make it clear on your user page or elsewhere, if you want, that you're willing to give up the post to someone motivated to take it over. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 15:06, 24 February 2009 (UTC)


Don't know if there are any ethicists here, actually.  Even if they were, they'd still have to be recruited! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 17:49, 7 September 2007 (CDT)
== Instructions (just testing) ==


If they're not here, they could be recruited to come here (just as is done by Scholarpedia). [[User:Michael Hardy|Michael Hardy]] 19:16, 8 September 2007 (CDT)
'''Welcome to the Dispute Resolution System.'''  Please use this page to report problems of all sorts—personal, editorial, or other conflicts you might have with others in the Citizendium community.  It is closely watched by many people, so you should see a rapid response to new problems you submit.


Yes.  Are you suggesting that I do so?  No time, right now.  Or are you making an overture to a recruitment plan?  See my big to do list on my user page; the short answer is that we ''are'' going to do some major recruitment, but I want to get our semi-automated application approval system in place...I am twisting coder arms on a regular basis (with ''some'' but not total success). --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 23:47, 8 September 2007 (CDT)
'''Types of problems to submit''' include intractable editorial disagreements between authors or editors, appeals of editorial or constabulary decisions, violations of policy, and low-key but unacceptable patterns of abuse on the part of individuals.


==Anniversary, PR etc==
'''How to submit a problem:'''
Hi Larry, am checking in when I can--and Wednesday Writeathon was a hoot. A <s>couple</s> quartet of quickies:
* To submit a problem, edit this page and start a new section. Give the section a heading by typing == and ==, between which you write a brief, neutral, dispassionate description of the problem.
#[http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/%28Thomas%29_Robert_Malthus This article about (Thomas) Robert Malthus] seems to be causing a problem in the "T" section of CZLive index and I had no idea how to fix it. Is it to do with leading off the article name with "(" that the system seems to detest?
* Below the section heading, describe the problem ''concisely'' and, again, neutrally and dispassionately. Be sure to include links to any pages where the dispute is ongoing or abuse is evident.
#I thought from a PR standpoint it would be worth pushing all authors to write at least two new articles this coming week to break 3,000 CZLive articles in time for the anniversary.
* Sign your name by typing four tildes (<code><nowiki>~~~~</nowiki></code>).
#I am keen to see a framework set-up to coordinate PR activities for CZ in consultation with the Editor-in-chief (and/or other admin structures that exist now and in the future). The anniversary seems a perfect opportunity to start that. How do you suggest that be done?
#Great article in [http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/the_web/article2409783.ece The Times].
--[[User:Ian Johnson|Ian Johnson]] 06:23, 8 September 2007 (CDT)


:In connection with No. 1 above, I piped the category names for you. the format looks something like <nowiki>[[Category:CZ Live|Malthus, (Thomas) Robert]]</nowiki> so you'll find him under 'M'. [[User:Derek Harkness|Derek Harkness]] 06:46, 8 September 2007 (CDT)
'''What will happen next?'''  Constables, Mediators, and Editorial Review Committee members monitor this page. At least one of them should post an analysis, refer the matter to the proper group, and tell you what will happen next. If there is any disagreement about where the matter should go, the Editor-in-Chief will be called in.
::Thanks Derek. --[[User:Ian Johnson|Ian Johnson]] 06:48, 8 September 2007 (CDT)


Hey, thanks Ian and thanks for your e-mail too. I've just done your #2.  Yes, the Times article is great.  Any idea what page it appeared on in the print version?  As to #3, let's work out a little plan by e-mail and then present it to the community. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 07:56, 8 September 2007 (CDT)
'''All attempts to debate or resolve problems on this page will be deleted from this page.''' The purpose of this page is only to clarify and refer problems, not to resolve them.
:Page 29 international edition, with a front page flash. Maybe see if one of the UK-based people can check there - we tend to receive different versions on the continent. --[[User:Ian Johnson|Ian Johnson]] 08:47, 8 September 2007 (CDT)


==buttons==
----
So is that 10px increase enough to solve the button height issues in IE? [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 15:42, 8 September 2007 (CDT)


Yep! But now a new bug is evident...more pixels might fix it. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 15:47, 8 September 2007 (CDT)
The above is being discussed [http://forum.citizendium.org/index.php/topic,2530.60.html here.] --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 19:59, 24 February 2009 (UTC)


No, didn't fix it.  The new bug is that two buttons (e.g., on [[Biology]]) have text that is just one pixel (maybe two) below the other text. It doesn't line up perfectly, in other words. The text that is lower is "External Links" and "Signed Articles".  Widening didn't fix it. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 15:50, 8 September 2007 (CDT)
==Query==
Larry, would be possible to start a new Workgroup for Statistics? See here for [[Talk:Statistics#No consultation?|background]]. Don't know if it would be right for now, but it could be something to keep in mind for the future. [[User:Hendra I. Nurdin|Hendra I. Nurdin]] 11:24, 2 March 2009 (UTC)


== How should we name this ==
Hendra--yes, it would.  The strategy would be simply to make a quick resolution to the Editorial Council.  If no one else does this soon, please remind me and I'll do it. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 15:29, 2 March 2009 (UTC)


[http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Talk:The_Grange%2C_Ramsgate/draft Help with naming]. --[[User:D. Matt Innis|Matt Innis]] [[User talk:D. Matt Innis|(Talk)]] 09:41, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
:Hi Larry, just wanted to check if anyone has submitted a quick resolution about the above to the EC. Thanks. [[User:Hendra I. Nurdin|Hendra I. Nurdin]] 00:21, 5 April 2009 (UTC)


Answered --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 09:46, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
::Hendra, do really need a new Workgroup for Statistics now that we have just adopted (via a vote of the Editorial Council on Resolution 0014) to allow the formation of subgroups? It would be quite easy now to form a Statistics subgroup ... just contact [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]]. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 01:03, 5 April 2009 (UTC)


Hi Larry, sorry to labour the point, but your answer seemed non-commital and having said I had no firm view, immediately after writing it, my view seemed to coalesce. I think for most things, disambiguating with () seems the right way to go - so we can have [[Functionalism (architecture)]], [[Functionalism (psychology)]] etc. But for places - and particularly buildings, most print sources will write [[St. Paul's Cathedral, London]] or [[St. Paul's, Covent Garden]], which seems more natural. At this early stage I'm wary of making a mess and setting precedents, so I'll leave The Grange where it is until you get a mo, please forgive the pedantry. --[[User:Russ McGinn|Russ McGinn]] 18:04, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
:::Hendra, I agree with Milt's answer (thanks Milt). --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 01:17, 5 April 2009 (UTC)


The way you put it makes sense to me.  I am inclined to agree.  Sorry I don't sound more committal (is that a word?) but I feel pretty non-committal.  Anyway, it's useful pedantry.  I actually think we should write this rule into [[CZ:Naming Conventions]]. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 18:41, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
::::Oh, OK, I was not aware of this subgroup development. Well, if in your opinion subgroup's the best way to do this then I'll just leave it at that (though I guess those who view statistics as a separate discipline will probably not agree to putting it as a subgroup of math). [[User:Hendra I. Nurdin|Hendra I. Nurdin]] 05:43, 5 April 2009 (UTC)


Ok, I've had a stab [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/CZ_Talk:Naming_Conventions#Building_names_and_places here] as suggested. --[[User:Russ McGinn|Russ McGinn]] 16:09, 11 September 2007 (CDT)
:::::Hendra, a subgroup may be affiliated with up to 3 main workgroups ... in other words, a Statistic subgroup may be a subgroup of up to 3 main workgroups. It would not be limited to merely being a subgroup of the Mathmatics main workgroup. Read [[:CZ:Subgroups]] in detail. Regards, [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 06:11, 5 April 2009 (UTC)


Thanks--we should add some such to the policy text itself sometime soon. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 17:26, 11 September 2007 (CDT)
== Energy (science) ==


==Donating content from a textbook==
Larry, Milton and I tried hard to answer your critical questions on the talk page of [[Energy (science)|energy]]. I hope you're satisfied with the result. --[[User:Paul Wormer|Paul Wormer]] 21:33, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


Quick question - or not - A couple of years ago I wrote this textbook - Berger, L.R. (2005) Working and Guiding in the Cradle of Humankind.  Prime Origins Publishing. ISBN 0-620-31866-x - for a paleoanthropology course for the Field Guides Association of South Africa.  Its still in print, but this fine example of writing only sells about 40 copies a year (its a small course......).  Because it was a textbook it was written from a neutral point of view and by design was broken up into little sections e.g. magnetic compass, using a compass, Homo erectus, etc. For example, it has a brief original entry on almost every large mammal in South Africa etc.  Now these bite sized pieces are perfect for CZ and with just a little cutting and pasting and some reference changes I can do one about every thirty minutes or so.  I am very happy to donate this content to CZ in this way and was going to just start doing this but two things came to mind as I was working on an article on "Magnetic Compass".  The first is - how do I cite this?  If I don't change the wording very much or paste word for word I should - in the normal course of events - cite this textbook after every sentence.  Such an excercise is tedious in the first instance and smacks of self-promotion in  the second.  Secondly, citing this book in the bibliography really doesn't help either as its not really the primary reference for "Magnetic Compass", its just where I'm stealing the text from - the sources are referenced in the article already.  I am the sole author and sole copyright holder (I'm a director of Prime Origins publishing - we do nature and science publications).  So how do I give you all of this content, and cite it appropriatly, so that no one comes back in a few years when "Working and Guiding in the Cradle of Humankind" becomes an international besteller and says that a bunch of original articles on CZ were plagarized from this work?
==Thank you==


[[User:Lee R. Berger|Lee R. Berger]] 05:40, 11 September 2007 (CDT)
Hi Larry! Thank you for your warm welcome. I hope to be a useful art editor in Citizendium. Sincerely, ([[User:Marika Herskovic|Marika Herskovic]] 21:40, 7 April 2009 (UTC))


Lee, it would be fantastic if you could donate all that content.  I'm sure we'd all greatly appreciate it.
== Open Letter ==


There's a standard way to handle your question, as others have done this sort of thing in the past.  Basically, in a "Sources" section--or, if you prefer, just a line of text without a header--at the bottom of the page, we write, "An early version of this article was taken from [bibiographical info]." That should be adequate.
Hi Larry.  I left a note on your WP talk page as well.  I think it would be perfectly acceptable to post an open letter on either your user page or user talk page.  I understand it wouldn't receive the wide audience it might at Jimbo's page in the short run, but perhaps over the long-haul it would gather a wider audience.  Hope I'm not out of line (either here or there) by doing this, but I guess the "In for a penny - In for a pound" saying often finds it's way to my door.  Best. [[User:Ched Davis|Ched Davis]] 19:02, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


Of course, you should make sure that you actually have legal permission, if needed, to use the book in this way.  If legal permission is both necessary and obtained, you should also post a permission notice.  I'm sure Steve Ewen could find a relevant template for this, although I suspect we might want to edit those permissions templates--they might be bigger and noisier than really necessary. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 08:53, 11 September 2007 (CDT)
Well, that's an idea--but I guess one copy, on [http://blog.citizendium.org/2009/04/08/an-open-letter-to-jimmy-wales-copy/ the blog,] is enough as far as I'm concerned.  Although I'm about to post an edit to the copy clarifying that the letter is GFDL and can be posted freely. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 19:11, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


==Thanks for the editorship==
== On user page history ==


Larry, I posted the message below previously in the discussion page of your CZ entry, which wasn't quite the appropriate place for it. So I had it cut out and pasted here:
I've used my Constabulary powers to move this entire discussion to a more appropriate place in the Forums at: http://forum.citizendium.org/index.php/topic,2648.0.html [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 19:59, 18 April 2009 (UTC)


Dear Larry,
That's groovy with me. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 01:20, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


Thanks very much for your message. I'm pleased to accept the role as an Engineering editor and will contribute as best as I can to make Citizendium a success. I've been an author at Citizendium for the last two weeks or so, and I have already started a number of articles in the Engineering and Mathematics categories (the list can be found [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Hendra_I._Nurdin here]). I will try to add more articles this weekend. Hope you won't mind that I've put my reply on your talk page, I thought you would probably check this more often than email.--[[User:Hendra I. Nurdin|Hendra I. Nurdin]] 15:48, 11 September 2007 (CDT)
== We now have users Sekhar Talluri and Talluri Sekhar ?? ==
***[[User:Hendra I. Nurdin|Hendra I. Nurdin]] 19:22, 11 September 2007 (CDT)
You're very welcome of course.  No need to thank me. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 20:47, 11 September 2007 (CDT)


==Workgroup welcome==
Hi, Larry: Just for your info if you were not already aware of it, the same person now has two different user pages. One is [[User:Sekhar Talluri]] and the other is [[User:Talluri Sekhar]]. Could you straighten that out?
[[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 15:42, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
:It's under control for the moment, Milton, trust me. Speaking as a Constable. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 16:06, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
::Sorry, I wasn't paying attention.  I'll fix it. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 18:46, 13 May 2009 (UTC)


Can we move towards a neutral welcome note?  Edit mine as you see fit please.
:::Hi, Larry, the explanation is as per the email I sent you. We just need to make sure that he remains an *editor*! Thanks! [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 19:21, 13 May 2009 (UTC)


[[User:Lee R. Berger|Lee R. Berger]] 10:57, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
::::I'll get it!  [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 23:55, 13 May 2009 (UTC)


Seems fine to me, if you mean what is on [[CZ:Anthropology Workgroup]]. I'm impressed with the work being done on that page generally! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 11:02, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
:::::Thanks for getting on top of this & fixing my mistake... --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 02:37, 14 May 2009 (UTC)


Did you mean something else by "welcome note" by chance? --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 11:03, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
::::::It wasn't so much a mistake you made, I think, as just trying to play catch-up with getting this guy approved as an editor who had *also* put in his wrong email address. Complications.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 03:44, 14 May 2009 (UTC)


Sorry! Yes - I wanted to change the welcome to a neutral "welcome" on [[CZ:Anthropology Workgroup]] so that we remove any issues of "correcting and expert" - excuse the confusion please!
:::::::We got you covered :) [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 23:56, 14 May 2009 (UTC)


[[User:Lee R. Berger|Lee R. Berger]] 11:14, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
== A near name clash ==
Larry, spotted this accidentally while surfing the internet:


Sure, why not? --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 11:16, 14 September 2007 (CDT)
Citizendia http://www.citizendia.org/


==Getting Started==
It's a wikipedia mirror and judging by the date at the bottom of the page, only just started up (17 March 2009). No idea who runs it. [[User:Meg Ireland|Meg Ireland]] 06:42, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
Hi,
:I searched BetterWhois.com and that came up with the following Romanian registrant


I first would like to know if you intend to start a website Citizendium in French? If you don't, can I draft articles in French anyway on the CZ general website, or draft bilingual articles (English and French)?
<pre>
Domain Name:CITIZENDIA.ORG
Created On:16-Sep-2006 16:49:58 UTC
Last Updated On:18-Apr-2009 00:30:31 UTC
Expiration Date:16-Sep-2010 16:49:58 UTC
Sponsoring Registrar:GoDaddy.com, Inc. (R91-LROR)
Registrant Name:Bogdan Giusca
Registrant Organization:Bogdan Giusca
Registrant Street1:Str. Schitului, nr.11 Bl.11B
Registrant Street2:Ap 15 Et.2
Registrant Street3:
Registrant City:Bucuresti
Registrant State/Province:
Registrant Postal Code:032042
Registrant Country:RO
Registrant Phone:+40.213467348
Registrant Email:bogdan2005@yahoo.co.uk
Admin ID:GODA-259443627
Admin Name:Bogdan Giusca
Admin Organization:Bogdan Giusca
Admin Street1:Str. Schitului, nr.11 Bl.11B
Admin Street2:Ap 15 Et.2
Admin Street3:
Admin City:Bucuresti
Admin State/Province:
Admin Postal Code:032042
Admin Country:RO
Admin Phone:+40.213467348
</pre>


Then, could you please tell me if there are official CZ criteria before writing an article? Because there is no CZ in French yet, I would like to draft articles in English about things or people who are notorious in the French speaking world, but mostly not in the rest of the world.  
:According to the same source Citizendium.org was created On:12-Sep-2006 00:21:42 UTC (4 days earlier).


Thanks
:--[[User:Paul Wormer|Paul Wormer]] 08:01, 22 May 2009 (UTC)


[[User:Nicolas Tollet|Nicolas Tollet]] 15:12, 15 September 2007 (CDT)
::Apparently he is an admin on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Bogdangiusca , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bogdangiusca & http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Bogdan_Giusca .[[User:Meg Ireland|Meg Ireland]] 08:20, 22 May 2009 (UTC)


Definitely the plan now is to start Citizendium in French and other languages.  But we don't want to do that until CZ as a project and as an organization is a little more mature.  I ''think'' we could be ready by early next year, but I really don't know.
:::Very interesting.


We could draft articles in languages other than English and put them on a subpage--if you really felt that it were important to get started.
:::But no, according to the record above, it was created September 16, one day after my original announcement.  There was no one using anything remotely like Citizendium--it got no hits at all from Google--and I'm pretty sure I would have checked "Citizendia," because I'm very thorough about that sort of thing when picking names.  [http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/citizendia.org Nobody knows about them]...anyway, I am inclined to send them a mail telling them to shut down, because of the obvious confusability of names and direct competitive and misleading nature of site. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 12:01, 22 May 2009 (UTC)


There are some official criteria for articles.  See [[CZ:Content Policy]] and follow the links in the first section. English language articles about things and people "notorious" mostly in the Francophone world would be perfectly suitable, on the assumption that eventually we ''would'' be able to maintain a full set of such articles: see [[CZ:Maintainability]].
::::I guess Bogdan Giusca is making money out of the site (he has ads) and won't easily give in.--[[User:Paul Wormer|Paul Wormer]] 15:33, 22 May 2009 (UTC)


Welcome! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 16:14, 15 September 2007 (CDT)
:::::People deliberately use near miss sites like wikipedai for advertising. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] 17:53, 14 January 2010 (UTC)


:Do you think it's worth starting a page to find out what languages other than English are present in the heads of current CZ contributors? i.e. We ask people to sign a page stating what other languages they feel able to edit in to the same or greater level than English, and whether they're native speakers or not. I have written a draft under my userspace [[User:John_Stephenson/langs|here]]. [[User:John Stephenson|John Stephenson]] 07:49, 17 September 2007 (CDT)
== Moved the following from [[Talk:Larry Sanger]] ==


John--if the purpose it to gauge the level of interest in CZ in other languages, it's probably not necessary, because I already know that there is tremendous interest in several languages.  I've heard from multiple people asking for each of German, French, Spanish, Portuguese, and Japanese--and that's just all that I can think of.  There's a demand.
== Specialized editor ==
Larry, I see some articles that are ready for approval.  Could I be made specialist editor for the following categories based on my indicated experience below?


What I'm inclined to do in this case, as we have taken perhaps longer than expected to set up CZ in other languages, is to set up something like [[CZ:En francais]], with M. Tollet's article as a subpage of that.  I'd like to consult with the Executive Committee on the advisability of this, but that shouldn't take long. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 09:19, 17 September 2007 (CDT)
#Boxing: 2-time state amateur champion and long-time fan
#Bowling: 1-time city league champion and long-time bowler
#Soccer: 10+ years playing and paid referee of youth soccer leagues for several years
#Sailing: Have sailed on boats ranging from 16' cats to 44' yachts (island living is sooo tough!)
[[User:David E. Volk|David E. Volk]] 21:47, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


:OK, good idea, and I realise the page I made is just a back-of-an-envelope idea; but I think what languages we already have ought to be out in the open. I'd suggest starting whichever one(s) have plenty of users already on the English wiki. But great, as long as we get something up and running... [[User:John Stephenson|John Stephenson]] 10:46, 17 September 2007 (CDT)
Hi David, sorry for the long delay in replying to this, but...well...the question is whether you can articulate knowledge of the subject reliably.  Engaging in a sport doesn't make you an expert. Have you written or done anything else that establishes an expertise?  Refereeing is a definite credential, more than being a champion (no offense, I'm sure you can kick my ass and everybody's on CZ!).  For instance I've taught Irish fiddle for a living, am on first-name basis with some famous fiddlers, and have played for 14 years...but I wouldn't call myself an expert by any means.  And I think I know how to recognize the real experts.  Maybe you could follow up by e-mail? --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 21:08, 30 May 2009 (UTC)


John, sorry, I didn't mean to nix the idea. Basically, if anybody wants to try to use CZ to organize people for purposes in line with our mission, I'm all for it. Please proceed according to your plans! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 10:50, 17 September 2007 (CDT)
:If I make stick my own two cents in -- with all due respect to David and his credentials, I really don't think that they are enough to enable him to be called an Editor. An important part of the CZ ethos, and public cachet, is that Approved articles are approved by credentialed experts. And that the development of articles is guided by experts. To take extreme examples, would, could, should, [[Mickey Mantle]] and [[Pancho Gonzales]], two of the greatest players ever in their respective sports, be given editorships here because of their other-worldly physical skills? I think that I'd prefer to have [[Red Smith]] and [[Bud Collins]], say, be given editorships. I myself used to play tennis on a pretty high level, just below that of the very best, and I've followed it fairly closely over the years. And I've written a number of fictional works that have been published by *real* publishers, and paid for, as well as having an undergraduate degree in English from a prestigious university, but if I were offered the opportunity to be made a Sports or Literature editor, I would instantly turn it down.  I'm simply not knowledgeable enough in either field, and I'm *very* far from being qualified. In sum, I think it best that, regarding Editorships, we stick with our existing policy.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 22:51, 30 May 2009 (UTC)


:Oh, okay! I'm not sure where to put it or what to call it. [[CZ:Citizens' languages]]? [[User:John Stephenson|John Stephenson]] 10:54, 17 September 2007 (CDT)
==Eamil address? ==
Larry, I emailed bugs the instant the cite went down, but I don't think anyone saw it for hours.  Could you remind me what your email address is so next time I can send an email directly to you at the same time?
Of course, send it privately to my email address. [[User:David E. Volk|David E. Volk]] 20:55, 30 May 2009 (UTC)


How about [[CZ:International]]? --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 11:26, 17 September 2007 (CDT)
It's sanger@citizendium.org -- thanks -- sending the notice to both places is the best way.


==On controversial systems theory article==
I'm very sorry we haven't gotten on top of it, but I'm waiting on one of our tech guys at this point... --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 21:03, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
Hi Larry,


I came across a rather controversial article by Tom Mandel on systems theory which is currently in the process of being rewritten (in the notes section of the systems theory entry). This "systems theory" is related to but not the same as the systems theory known in the engineering and mathematics disciplines (for example, see [http://www.math.niu.edu/~rusin/known-math/index/93-XX.html]). It is philosophical in nature rather than scientific. Since a few engineering articles currently link to a systems theory article, may I suggest that Tom's "Systems theory" article be renamed/moved to something like  "systems theory (philosophy)" if and when it sees the light of CZ day? That way someone else may be able to start writing another entry on a systems theory as it is understood in engineering. Thanks. [[User:Hendra I. Nurdin|Hendra I. Nurdin]] 00:53, 16 September 2007 (CDT)
::Does email to bugs or sanger@citizendium.org get through when the system is down? I was thinking more of your gmail or yahoo account. [[User:David E. Volk|David E. Volk]] 15:43, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


:Hendra, if I may, you as an editor may make this decision and it will be enforced by the constabulary.  &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 01:49, 16 September 2007 (CDT)
::::Mail to me & bugs almost always gets through because it's on a different server.  The forums and blog usually stay up too.  I hardly ever check blarneypilgrim@yahoo.com but I'm more inclined to if sanger@citizendium.org is inaccessible. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 01:46, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


::Okay, Stephen, thanks for the advice. I'll try to figure out how I'm going to do this from the CZ Editor's policy/guide :) [[User:Hendra I. Nurdin|Hendra I. Nurdin]] 02:56, 16 September 2007 (CDT)
==Hawaiian alphabet==
Hi Larry, I'm a really new author (got to get past the WP habit of saying "editor"), and have written two articles, [[Gobioides broussonnetii]], and [[Hawaiian alphabet]]. The first one is merely a copy of the version I wrote on wikipedia, but the second one is new, fresh, and is up to Citizendiums standards. Thus, I feel it is ready to be approved. Unfortunately, there are four editors tottal, spanning two workgroups, that would be considered an "expert" in the subject. Unfotunately, none of them seem to be around. Could you take a look at [[Hawaiian alphabet]] and either A)make the decision yourself, or B)forward my request to an active editor with experience in the field?[[User:Drew R. Smith|Drew R. Smith]] 12:52, 17 June 2009 (UTC)


:Well, speaking for myself--I actually agree with Steve.  ;-)  As an Engineering Editor, Hendra, you do have the authority to start and manage the ''engineering'' article about systems theory; and you also certainly have the authority to demand that the articles be titled so that the engineering topic isn't confused with this other "philosophical" topic.  Since there aren't any other editors who are experts about that other sense of "systems theory," we can leave the renaming up to you.  "General systems theory" (or "General Systems Theory") might work.  Another possibility is "Systems theory (interdisciplinary)."  You might also get Tom Mandel's opinion about this, since it's his work that is affected.  I notice that [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory the Wikipedia article "systems theory"] is about "General Systems Theory."  Cf. [[CZ:Naming Conventions|Naming Conventions]].
:Drew, the job of helping to get articles approved, if warranted, is handled by our Approvals Manager who is Joe Quick. I strongly suggest that you contact him, '''not''' on his user page but at [[User talk:Approvals Manager]]. Getting an article approved can often require quite a while, so be prepared to be patient. Joe will do his best to help you. [[User:Milton Beychok|Milton Beychok]] 00:20, 18 June 2009 (UTC)


:Once you've decided, it will involve either creating a "disambiguation page" or else you'll be pressing the "move" button (or both).  That's the technical means... --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 08:07, 16 September 2007 (CDT)
::Milton answered correctly.  I was travelling...more on Drew's user talk page. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 02:35, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


:: Thanks, Larry. I've left a message on Tom Mandel's user page to ask for his opinion on the matter and a "move" request on the [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Talk:Systems_theory Systems Theory talkpage]. Let's see what Tom's response will be (if any). [[User:Hendra I. Nurdin|Hendra I. Nurdin]] 16:46, 16 September 2007 (CDT)
:::Just wondering, where were you traveling?[[User:Drew R. Smith|Drew R. Smith]] 05:48, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


:::OK.  If you are up to it, Hendra, I hope you will indeed find a fair resolution of the problem.  It is true, bear in mind, that for very many people, "systems theory" means General Systems Theory. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 09:13, 17 September 2007 (CDT)
== New subpage type to accomodate content to be transcluded onto Welcome page as AOTW ==
==sunday times==


By the way Larry, you made the sunday times of south africa yesterday (CZ intends to overtake wikipedia)- and jim Wales just happens to be in Cape Town this week.....
Hi Larry,  
please take a look at [http://forum.citizendium.org/index.php/topic,2706.msg21681.html#msg21681 this message] and comment whether you'd agree to put this stuff into a dedicated subpage, primarily for articles being approved or nominated for approval, and for those nominated for display on the Welcome page. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 22:49, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
:There is also a need for Proof subpages in mathematics, discussed at several places in the forums recently (e.g. [http://forum.citizendium.org/index.php/topic,2747.msg22305.html#msg22305 here]). Please comment on how to proceed. Thanks! --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 11:05, 21 July 2009 (UTC)


[[User:Lee R. Berger|Lee R. Berger]] 11:04, 17 September 2007 (CDT)
:: ... and [[CZ talk:How to add a new subpage type|here]] as well [[User:Peter Schmitt|Peter Schmitt]] 12:13, 21 July 2009 (UTC)


How fun! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 11:25, 17 September 2007 (CDT)
== Relicensing GFDL content ==


== Cricket ==
Hi Larry,
please take a look at these [http://forum.citizendium.org/index.php/topic,2628.msg21150.html#msg21150 two] [http://forum.citizendium.org/index.php/topic,2747.msg21963.html#msg21963 messages] on the relicensing of content originally imported from GFDL-licensed sources, and comment. Thanks! --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 16:01, 30 June 2009 (UTC)


Hi, Larry, and thank you for the welcome.  My first impressions are good and I believe the site has enormous potential.
== Process for justifying, testing and installing extensions on Citizendium ==


You are of course quite right that cricket is also an insect and you have reminded me of the never-ending disambiguation arguments about this very topic on WP. One of the main reasons I left WP was that it allowed what I might call "consensus bias" and hence had separate articles called "cricket" and "cricket (insect)". In the spirit of starting afresh, I think I should eliminate any bias at the outset and move [[Cricket]] to [[Cricket (sport)]].
I raised a question on the technical issues forum that one of the respondents suggested you may be more qualified to answer. Specifically, I asked [http://forum.citizendium.org/index.php/topic,2788.0.html how it is decided to add an extension to Citizendium]? The motivation for this question is that the availability of more powerful tools on Citizendium could attract contributors who in their absence might be inclined to work on Wikipedia or other information warehouse stores [pun intended :-D]. In my original post I gave an example of a set of tools that might provide such benefit. Some background might be useful. I originally contemplated writing a book and contributing it to Wikibooks. For various reasons that seems less likely now. However, during the process of scoping out the work, it became apparent that the tools for adding content metadata in mulit-wiki-page works (e.g., table of contents numbers in wiki section and page titles, references, footnotes and citation annotations, indexes) in Mediawiki based wikis are lacking. The Cite extension presumes references and citations exist on the same page. Table of contents numbering cannot be transcluded into section or page titles. There is no support for automatically building indexes, either on the same page or across multiple pages. Providing better tools such as these might attract contributors to Citizendium. [I think I can make a case that multi-wiki-page article support is relevant to Citizendium]


Unfortunately, I'm not an entomologist and so I don't feel qualified to introduce [[Cricket (insect)]]!  Best regards, --[[User:John Leach|John Leach]] 01:05, 18 September 2007 (CDT)
However, this specific example is unimportant (other than as evidence that the existence of such tools might be a differentiator for Citizendium). I am actually interested in the more general question of what decision processes exist, if any, to justify, test and install extensions on Citizendium. Off the top of my head, at least the following criteria would be important. 1) Are there good justifications for adding the extension (I have always found it curious that the Hiero extension is installed on most Mediawiki based wikis)? 2) Is the extension properly tested so its installation is unlikely to introduce either stability or performance problems on the site? 3) Is the extension compatible with the version of Mediawiki used by Citizendium? These are examples of criteria. I am interested on your take on these and whether you believe others are as or more important.


Thanks, John, and we appreciate your vote of confidence. I agree, [[Cricket (sport)]] sounds right. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 09:59, 18 September 2007 (CDT)
Finally, I should mention that I have, over the last couple of weeks, been corresponding with the Mediawiki developers (i.e., using wikitech-1) on the topic of regression testing. In my view the Mediawiki software has significant QA issues and there is a good possibility that if this is not corrected, one day it will fall over and have difficulty standing up again. I notice that Citizendium runs on 1.13.2 (modified). So, one consideration in this issue is the stability of the base code and how this affects the desirability of adding new extensions. Any thoughts, insights or other comments? [[User:Dan Nessett|Dan Nessett]] 18:03, 28 July 2009 (UTC)


==Diambiguation page for Systems theory==
== "because of a peculiarity in the MediaWiki system" ==
Hi Larry,


I have not put up a disambiguation page for systems theory in the former page for that topic. The talk page however still contains the discussion around Tom's original article and I have left it there for the time being. I am not sure what would be the appropriate action to be taken for that page. Thanks. [[User:Hendra I. Nurdin|Hendra I. Nurdin]] 18:17, 18 September 2007 (CDT)
I just noticed this in the review form. There should be a $wgAccountRequestMinWords variable to change or remove the requirement. [[User:Aaron Schulz|Aaron Schulz]] 23:50, 13 January 2010 (UTC)


Hendra, thanks for asking.  While Tom is still at least potentially at work on the article, I'd like to keep the talk pages intact.  But I would leave it to you, if you're willing, to decide how to design the disambiguation page. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 20:16, 18 September 2007 (CDT)
:Aaron, we just had a new registrant that said he had tried to register but never heard from us.  He applied three more times before he realized that he had not used 50 words in the bio.  We finally did get his last application.  Could the problem above be why we never got it?  If so, that might be a very big deal because we definitely have not had the number of apps that we should. [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 01:06, 14 January 2010 (UTC)


:Tom does seem to still be working on the article, I have no problem with that. He has created a new name "Systems theory (general)" for the article and is working on the notes directory. It still needs a lot of work to remain neutral and coherent, and I think should be monitored. I have already setup a disambiguation page for systems theory, but instead of General Systems Theory Tom has named his article with the name I stated before. I have now written up a stub for Systems theory (engineering). Thanks. [[User:Hendra I. Nurdin|Hendra I. Nurdin]] 01:31, 19 September 2007 (CDT)
::I don't understand what either of you are saying.  Are you saying that we should rewrite the requirements so that we do NOT require 50 words AND redo the system so that applications are not rejected if they don't have 50 words?  Or are you saying that we should keep the requirement BUT redo the system so that the application is sent anyway, even if there aren't 50 words?  Or are you saying that there is NO notice at the top of the page of a failed application saying that the 50 word are needed?  I logged out yesterday, then tried to send in a test application with only 10 words written: I got a notice (not a large one, but at least it was there) at the top of the application page saying that 50 words were needed. IF I COULD FIND THE DAMN editing page for THIS part, I would make that notice much BIGGER.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 01:14, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
:::Normally the notice is bigger, but the site CSS is making it small. The CSS class 'errorbox' can control this. At any rate, that UI message above is worded as if it the 50 word requirement is a weird obstacle that has to be worked around. My point was that if it is problematic, then it can simply be changed. [[User:Aaron Schulz|Aaron Schulz]] 05:38, 14 January 2010 (UTC)


All right--thanks! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 07:39, 19 September 2007 (CDT)
::::Well, there's no problem if an applicant actually writes 50 words and then clicks the submit button.  If he *doesn't* write 50 words, and clicks the submit button, the same application page remains in front of him, now with a little notice on top of the page that he has to write 50 words.  A professor in Holland finally got accepted last week after emailing the Constabulary that he had been trying in vain for two months to join.  He had never paid any attention to the 50-word requirement.  It was a result of that that I added the CAPS stuff about the 50 words.  I'd ALSO like to have that notice at the top of the failure page in LARGER letters.... But I can't find the page in order to edit it. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 17:04, 14 January 2010 (UTC)


== Re Supplementary text ---> Addendum ==
:::::So then the "peculiarity" is not that it isn't sent but that the message is too small. Changing [[MediaWiki:common.css]] is the way to may it bigger. [[User:Aaron Schulz|Aaron Schulz]] 21:02, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
:::::I've [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=MediaWiki:Common.css&diff=100626264&oldid=100524248 imported] future MW CSS (in shared.css) for these items. CZ may want different colors or what not. [[User:Aaron Schulz|Aaron Schulz]] 21:16, 14 January 2010 (UTC)


Anthony, Chris and I are concerned that "Supplementary Text" is just too long for the tabs. That (template) real estate is very valuable. How would "Addendum" do for a name? --Larry Sanger 19:36, 20 September 2007 (CDT)
== The danger of relying uncritically on things ==


Hi Anthony, I set up a test run for you to check out. See Life/Addendum. Chris Day (talk) 19:54, 20 September 2007 (CDT)  
Hello.  I just read Kathryn Schulz's interview of you.  You said:
: I think it's pretty dangerous to rely in an uncritical way on Wikipedia.
:
I've been telling students for some time that it's pretty dangerous to rely uncritically on correctly functioning calculators.  (And that's without even mentioning the habit of so many of them of using calculators as anesthetics.)  But I think properly functioning calculators are good things.  So if you meant your comment as anything more than the weakest of criticisms that would also apply to calculators, you should beef it up.
:
(This may be related to the issue of relying uncritically on spell checkers. They won't tell you that "intercession" and "intersession" are two different things. Hence a school's academic calendar says "Intercession: December 20th&ndash;January 4th".) [[User:Michael Hardy|Michael Hardy]] 18:59, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
: PS: If you like Google Maps, you'll probably love Google Earth. [[User:Michael Hardy|Michael Hardy]] 23:52, 6 August 2010 (UTC)


Thanks. Like it very much. Would it task greatly to change to "Addenda", or do you think not necessary? Thinking we might have distinctly different topics covered there as separate sections in a TOC. --Anthony.Sebastian (Talk) 20:11, 20 September 2007 (CDT)  
It mussed bee awl rite. The spell chequer tolled mi sew. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] 16:51, 23 September 2010 (UTC)


Retrieved from "http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/User_talk:Anthony.Sebastian"
== Congratulations Larry! ==


I thought you were going to say that! The problem (at the risk of sounding like a broken record...) is that we are already running a risk of confusing people by speaking of any sort of generic text addition.  If we speak of addenda, plural, then we invite people to build out potentially ''unlimited'' amounts of text all associated with one topic--instead of, what we would prefer, breaking topics apart "at the joints," so to speak.  We don't really want to hide huge amounts of text on subpages.  It would be better, I think, if we think creatively of sensible, self-contained subtopics, that we can use to remove some of the flab from one overbloated topic.  It's just that the plural, "Addenda," does seem to invite an unlimited amount of random material that should be filed away under a more specific topic. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 20:29, 20 September 2007 (CDT)
You did it, way to go! Thanks for everything!! [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 14:23, 23 September 2010 (UTC)


== Subpagination bot ==
:Yes, thanks for getting the project started, Larry! --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 14:29, 23 September 2010 (UTC)


Hello. I'd like to get the subpagination bot started in a couple of days. Chris Day agrees. Is that okay with you or is there something that needs to be done first? I can announce it, but I'm also happy to leave this to you. If you could find time to create an account for it (suggested name: subpagination bot, though I don't care) and flag it as a bot, that would be great. This needs bureaucrat privileges so I can't just ask the constabulary to do it. -- [[User:Jitse Niesen|Jitse Niesen]] 07:10, 22 September 2007 (CDT)
::You're welcome and thanks for sticking with it and making it happen! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 14:34, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
:::Congratulations on starting and keeping Citizendium afloat.[[User:Mary Ash|Mary Ash]] 17:03, 23 September 2010 (UTC)


I'll create the account, but now there's a bit of a problem: Greg is going to switch us to MediaWiki Sunday morning, he says.  Maybe we should wait until after the switch. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 07:44, 22 September 2007 (CDT)
==You've been Nominated!==
Someone has nominated you for a position in the new Citizendium.  They have noticed you're dedication to the project and like what they see.  To be listed on the ballot for the position, it is necessary that you accept the nomination on the [[Archive:Citizendium Ballot for the Management Council|Nomination page].  Just place accept next to your name along with the four tildes. The nomination period will close at midnight October 7 (UTC).  Article 54 of the new charter details the requirements:


:Makes sense, I'll wait till after the switch. -- [[User:Jitse Niesen|Jitse Niesen]] 23:07, 22 September 2007 (CDT)
===Article 54===


== "This article uses content that originally appeared on Wikipedia." ==
*In conjunction with the Declaration of the Editor-in-Chief regarding the effectivity of this Charter, there shall be a call for nominations for the following offices: Managament Council (five seats), Editorial Council (seven seats), Managing Editor (one), Ombudsman (one).  This shall be the effective date of the Charter.
*Any Citizen may nominate candidates for these positions. 
*Nominations shall be collected and collated by the Chief Constable.
*Nominations shall be accepted no more than fourteen days after the effective date of the charter; the ballot shall be available starting on the twentieth day after the effective date  of the charter; the election shall be completed no more than twenty-eight days after the effective date of the charter; all elected officials shall begin their term of office on the thirtieth day after the effective date of the charter. 
*Only candidates who accept their nomination shall be eligible to appear on the ballot. Nominated candidates can accept nominations for no more than two official functions.  Accepting a nomination serves as a declaration of commitment, in the case of being elected, to fulfill this function until the limit of the term.
*All positions shall be elected by a simple majority of the voting citizenry. In the case of a tie, an immediate run-off election shall be held.
*In the event that a candidate has been elected for two functions, the candidate shall declare which one he or she accepts within three days of announcement of the election results. In the event that such a declaration has not been made during this period, the candidate shall be considered elected for the position for which the nomination was accepted first. The same procedure applies to a reserve member that becomes elected by a seat being vacated this way.


Not a great line, IMHO. Much that is on Wikipedia is not original with that site. Better would be "Some content from this article previously appeared on Wikipedia," or "This article uses content that previously appeared on Wikipedia."
If you would like to make a statement to help voters, click the "Statement" link to the right of your name.


Even THAT doesn't cover cases where the old WP content has been edited out. Those cases are probably few at this point, but they are possible. Better MIGHT be "Some content from this article may previously have appeared on Wikipedia." [[User:Louis F. Sander|Louis F. Sander]] 18:09, 26 September 2007 (CDT)
Thanks again for the commitment you're making to assure that Citizendium becomes the premier quality online source we all have envisioned.  


:I have written stuff for WP a couple of years ago that, due to the antics of the trained monkeys, er, I mean editors, in the succeeding months, gradually faded away, edit by edit.  In a couple of cases, I have gone back to the WP version that I wrote maybe 2 years ago, copied it, and used it to start a new CZ article. Probably 95% of the CZ article was originally written by me for WP; and now probably 95% of that particular part of WP has disappeared. So, in a sense, what I've put in CZ is just about 100% new material, but, of course, has that WP background, like the Mad Aunt who is locked away in the attic and that we occasionally hear scurrying across the floor. Maybe we could say: "Some content in this article may have appeared in somewhat different form in earlier versions of a Wikipedia article."  And, by the way, why are we saying "on" Wikipedia and not "in"?  Because it's "on" a Website?  I prefer to think of it as being "in" an encyclopedia.... [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 19:09, 26 September 2007 (CDT)
[[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 13:15, 3 October 2010 (UTC)


OK, I've put in a request to change the text to: Some content on this page may previously have appeared on Wikipedia. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 01:25, 27 September 2007 (CDT)
== [[Talk:Eastern Orthodox Church]] ==


:"...that WP background, like the Mad Aunt who is locked away in the attic and that we occasionally hear scurrying across the floor."  You gotta enjoy reading this stuff. :-) &nbsp;&mdash;[[User:Stephen Ewen|Stephen Ewen]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Stephen Ewen|(Talk)]] 02:21, 27 September 2007 (CDT)
Just to let you know I've invited the Ombudsman. [[User:Peter Jackson|Peter Jackson]] 09:16, 25 October 2010 (UTC)


::My own Mad Aunt spends her time vandalizing articles on Wikipedia. We discourage it, but it keeps her sedentary, which minimizes the scurrying. [[User:Louis F. Sander|Louis F. Sander]] 05:10, 27 September 2007 (CDT)
== A sight for sore eyes ==


==Wikipedia links?==
[http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=CZ%3ACitizendium_Ballot_for_the_Management_Council&action=historysubmit&diff=100771429&oldid=100771425 And not a moment too soon. ;-)] [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 17:50, 13 May 2011 (CDT)
Hi Larry, I had once or twice stumbled onto pages with the following type of link: "[insert article name] at Wikipedia" that points the visitor to the corresponding Wikipedia article. Is this a CZ policy? Surely, referring any visitor to Wikipedia is the last thing we want to do. Thanks. [[User:Hendra I. Nurdin|Hendra I. Nurdin]] 16:54, 28 September 2007 (CDT)


Do you mean articles blank pages, like [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/Acyl_halide this?]  That would be an artifact of the early days when we were encouraging people to develop WP articles.  I'm pretty sure I can fix it myself. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 17:12, 28 September 2007 (CDT)
Thanks, Matt! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 19:28, 13 May 2011 (CDT)
:Wait! No! Don't do it!  I actually think those links are a great service to our endusers.  It's not like we can offer someone an alternative topic for whatever they were searching for so it doesn't make any sense to suppress information about where they might be able to find something that we can't currently provide. [[User:Joe Quick|--Joe Quick]]  ([[User talk:Joe Quick|Talk]]) 17:28, 28 September 2007 (CDT)


I agree with Hendra, Joe.  It says something false about our own standards when we direct people to Wikipedia.  They can do better.  This isn't "suppressing" information--that's a complete fallacy--it is merely a failure to link to some particular information.  Besides, the purpose of the links in question was to give ''contributors'' a starting place for a new article.  Few end users people will follow red links and see that text, at least, not more than once.  Contributors, however, will.
== WP Hierarchy ==


:Joe, if visitors can't find something here then they can try to search the web for another source, such as Wikipedia, and ''decide for themselves'' if they want to accept the information that they find. On the other hand, if we redirect them to Wikipedia then we would be ''indirectly endorsing'' Wikipedia to the visitors as some sort legitimate or reliable source of information. Yet, Wikipedia is very the reason why Citizendium is here in the first place -- we aim to be a more reliable source of information.  
Larry: I have tried to outline the way WP is organized at [[Wikipedia#Administration]], but the structure is fairly complicated. I wonder if you might take a look at this discussion and determine whether I have the whole story here.


Turns out I can't fix it myself... --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 17:48, 28 September 2007 (CDT)
Many thanks, [[User:John R. Brews|John R. Brews]] 14:44, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
:I think some Sysops should try to fix this as soon as possible, I'm sure we don't want to be endorsers of Wikipedia for much longer :-) Thanks. [[User:Hendra I. Nurdin|Hendra I. Nurdin]] 18:21, 28 September 2007 (CDT)


Yeah, okay, "suppress" is a strong word.  I don't personally think that the link "indirectly endorses" anything, but if that's others' interpretation, then it should probably go...[[User:Joe Quick|--Joe Quick]]  ([[User talk:Joe Quick|Talk]]) 18:32, 28 September 2007 (CDT)
Hi John, I replied on the talk page. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 15:32, 13 October 2011 (UTC)


== Verdict ==
== Funding ==


Hi Larry.  I've given CZ a fair shot over the last fortnight to see how it shapes up and I've now formed some opinions.
Two items could be added to the "WE NEED YOUR HELP!" box.  Something such as "Current funds for servers will be exhausted 2013-13-13."  Also "Donations this month total $xxx.xx; the monthly requirement is $yyy.yy."  And of course, the numbers need updating daily at least.  BTW, I tried to register for a forum but didn't receive approval.  Might have chosen the wrong forum. Regards, ... [[User:Peter Lyall Easthope|Peter Lyall Easthope]] 16:08, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
:I agree that we need updates much more frequently, and "daily at least" seems to be a good thing to strive for (as long as there have been changes during that day). --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 00:23, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
::Peter, has anyone approved your request to join the forums yet?
::If you want daily updates, you really need someone other than me to be treasurer!  Monthly is the best I'll be able to handle.  I'll try to update the page soon. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 18:47, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
My suggestion is here.  Approval for the forum is no longer needed, thanks.  Ideally the financial status would be updated by software.  Not sure how.  Can any bank account be read by software? Regards, ... [[User:Peter Lyall Easthope|Peter Lyall Easthope]] 06:35, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
:Hi Larry, as far as I can see from [[CZ:Financial report]], we have funds remaining to keep the servers running on the order of one month. Is this correct? --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 21:06, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
::Daniel, nope--we have over $2,000, as I have just stated at [[CZ:Financial report]].  I have paid for several months out of my own pocket and am not asking to be reimbursed.  There were also several other, very generous donations.  No funds that were deposited to the Paypal account I set up for CZ were transferred to my own bank accounts--all of those funds are all still there.  I will be transferring them soon, however, to Hayford's new CZ Paypal account. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 20:10, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
:::Thank you, Larry. --[[User:Daniel Mietchen|Daniel Mietchen]] 06:45, 23 January 2012 (UTC)


Although there is merit in allowing "experts only" it will exclude the majority of useful contributors.  Those WP contributors who have registered a username (i.e., not the hit and run IP address types) may not actually be experts but they do generally make useful contributions and in considerable volumes.  I believe that by effectively excluding these people, CZ is going to stunt its own growth.
Ok, now we have faced up to reality about the role of the financial representative, how about the role of Management Council member next. [[User:David Finn|David Finn]] 07:38, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
:You mean I haven't been participating, perhaps, David?  I can't quite tell what you mean.  But if that's what you mean, I am of course perfectly willing to "face up to reality" regarding my non-participation. I would be happy to step aside. Frankly, between my new projects and family, I don't have time for CZ.  I volunteered for the Management Council only because I had the impression that warm bodies were lacking. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 00:43, 24 January 2012 (UTC)


WP is at one extreme with its "anyone can edit" philosophy and CZ has gone to the other. What is needed is a middle ground whereby "anyone using a registered username that has been obtained via e-mail confirmation can edit".  This gets rid of the IP address vandal and allows the casual contributor to take part.
::I see... I guess you didn't notice that during the election you were not unopposed, and in fact your nearest opponent received only two votes less than you? Anyway, now that you mention it I notice you haven't voted on any MC matter for three and a half months or so, and if you don't have time for CZ like you say I guess we can assume you won't be voting on any more matters. Nevertheless according to CZ rules it is up to you whether you wish to continue to occupy the position in place of someone who may have the time. My gut instinct would be to give that someone the chance. [[User:David Finn|David Finn]] 15:50, 24 January 2012 (UTC)


I think the CZ category system is a mess that needs to be sorted out and I don't think the subpage idea will work.  These comments are made from a reader perspective.
:::Nah, Larry's doing just fine.  I doubt seriously that most would have re-donated had he not rejoined the effort.  Larry's value is just being who he is.  Not many have that distinction.  You'll get a chance to run next time, David. [[User:D. Matt Innis|D. Matt Innis]] 16:59, 24 January 2012 (UTC)


The golden rule of publishing is to put the reader first and make sure that everything he sees on the page is useful to him. The CZ categories are based on article status or on a particular workgroup when they should be subject-based and relational (I don't agree with hierarchical category systems). 
::::I disagree with David Finn about you resigning, Larry. The MC is working just fine (we have passed 4 motions this month) and there is no reason for you to resign right now. If you feel you do not have the time to participate, you can request a temporary leave of absence and then resign after March. That will avoid triggering a special election, which I am sure most of us do not want. [[User:Dan Nessett|Dan Nessett]] 19:16, 24 January 2012 (UTC)


The subpage menu bar is unsightly and unnecessary.  I do not understand why the reader should see a button that links him to an incomprehensible metapage.  The "related articles", "bibliography" and "external sources" information should be in the body of the article and placed at the end with the citation references. Okay, an article might use a massive bibliography and so that should be in a subpage but with a link from a bibliography heading in the main article.  The menubar includes a talk tab and that duplicates the discussion tab at the top of the page.
:::::I wonder how honourary MC positions would be viewed by the Charter or the Citizens who voted. [[User:David Finn|David Finn]] 20:04, 24 January 2012 (UTC)


I will continue to keep an eye on progress and see how the site develops but I do not have time to contribute frequently.  I certainly think the issues I've raised need to be addressed and especially those that concern the benefit of the site to the reader.   
::::::All I can say is that it reflects well on the project that you care enough to make an issue of it, David.  If people actually care about being in control of it, it's still reasonably robust.  Well, I ''think'' that's a valid inference.  :-)  --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 20:41, 24 January 2012 (UTC)


Regards. --[[User:John Leach|John Leach]] 01:52, 29 September 2007 (CDT)
:::::::Some of us certainly do care, Larry. Actually, you have already identified one of the main problems, that we have far too small a community to support such a rigidly formal system of governance.
:::::::Larry, I am sure you are aware of how many people contribute to this site. It works out that there are far less contributors than elected officials.
:::::::I'll say that again - we have more elected officials than we have contributors. More officials than we have warm bodies.


You're not the only one who has the dismayingly mistaken impression that only experts are allowed on CZ.  I wonder if there is a simple way we can prevent this impression in the future. But, FYI, consider the ~2000 accounts at [[:Category:CZ Authors]].  We are in fact precisely as you describe the middle way.  I'm sorry we don't yet have a way of making this clear--although we can't be held responsible for irresponsible misrepresentations in the press.
:::::::Dan is saying that if you don't have the time to do MC business then you can take a leave of absence right up to the next elections, but I hope you will agree that such a thing would be a gross manipulation of the Charter. The people who voted (and there were more voters than elected officials, you got over 30 votes as did your nearest opponent) weren't voting just to keep the system in place at all costs, they were voting for individuals to be on the MC and are entitled to get what they voted for, don't you think?


I also think that you probably fail to understand what subpages are for, and we also need to build some tools to ease the user into this innovation.  In short it is much more than just the bibliography, external links, and related articles; those are only the default selections.
:::::::Dans idea seems to be to protect the idea of the MC at all costs, even if it means him sitting up there all on his own telling us all what to do. The danger of course with leaving the MC solely in the hands of one individual is that MC business ceases to be about and for the community and more about what that individual wants. That is why we need either MC participation or reverting to a looser more informal style of management, like you suggested on the forum.


I doubt anyone would disagree with you about the substandard appearance of the subpage menu bar. The hope, as yet unfulfilled, is that one of our members will create a MediaWiki "skin" that will actually rearrange the position of various sets of links.
:::::::I appreciate that you may not have the time for this function, Larry. Dan says that there is no standard set for active MC participation, but you are as aware as the rest of us that when we voted we were expecting a certain level of participation regardless. For that reason I think it entirely appropriate to consider resignation as there is always a chance that someone who does have the time will step in. [[User:David Finn|David Finn]] 08:21, 25 January 2012 (UTC)


In short: it's not called "beta" for nothing! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 02:06, 29 September 2007 (CDT)
Larry's MC position is not ''honorary''.  He has served as the CZ treasurer for the past 7 months when no one else was willing to do so. He has participated in MC discussions, if infrequently. There is no standard set in the charter for what constitutes active participation. [[User:Dan Nessett|Dan Nessett]] 20:57, 24 January 2012 (UTC)


:I just want to add that the talk bar does not duplicate the function of the discussion tab at the top of the page. The subpages menu talk tab links to the articles talk page ''from every subpage'' and from the metadata template. In approved articles it always links to the drafts talk page.  I understand this is a subtle difference but it is an important distinction that reflects the idea that each cluster of subpages are one entity.
:Dan, when asked on the forum about our finances you said that "You need to contact the treasurer, not the MC". It seems that one day the treasurer is not an MC function, and the next it magically is, the only difference being which way you want to portray things. Is that a correct observation? And by the way, I said ''would be viewed'' - future tense, no? If you as MC chair are offering out leaves of absence as a way of perpetuating a system that obviously isn't working then you are creating honourary MC memberships, and that seems a clear manipulation of the Charter. [[User:David Finn|David Finn]] 08:21, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
:I am surprised you (John) think this site is for experts only. What gave you this impression?
:I do agree that the metadata page can be more hidden.  That is a trivial change to make and it could be possible to have them only appear on the talk page for each article.
:With regard to the categories, these are a tool for authors and editors, not readers (Larry, most have already migrated back to the talk page.  Maybe we should move them all there?). The readers need to use the related articles subpage.  If well written, that subpage will be the source of the subject-based and relational links. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 15:05, 29 September 2007 (CDT)


I share John's perspective if not his point of view.  First of all, I never got the impression that Citizendium is for experts only.  I am also new, "your retired history buff," and after my own fortnight still remain intimidated by the technical challenge of Citizendium.  Eventually, I will work through it, I suppose, albeit reluctantly. John, self described as "a business / systems analyst with a considerable IT background," seems to be typical of your most active participants. All but a few (I may be wrong here) seem to have arrived at Citizendium from the IT world. As a not quite technically challenged participant, it is interesting to me to read what IT professionals have to say about non-technical topics.  Quite impressive.  I am not saying this is bad, but I can say that anything that makes the creative/editorial processes more user friendly will facilitate greatly expanding and diversifying your author base to others like myself who can only wish for the skills demonstrated by some in this community. [[User:Bill Falter|Bill Falter]] 15:39, 29 September 2007 (CDT)
::The person who is appointed treasurer need not be a member of the MC and is not, by virtue of that appointment, an MC member. The treasurer has the responsibility of paying the bills and providing a monthly financial report. Larry took on that role because we could find no one else to do it. In a sense he was acting pro tempore until the MC could find someone to do the job. Consequently, his work as the treasurer is legitimately viewed as MC work.
:So have you edited at wikipedia too? If so, what makes things more complicated here? If not, what could make editing easier. Clearly these are issues that need to be acted on.  [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 15:43, 29 September 2007 (CDT)


<br />First of all, Chris, I appreciate your interest.  Inserting this page break is a really basic issue. How do I make sure the paragraphing is as I want it.  Editing article, editing discussion, and adding new topit with (+) may seem obvious to you, but took me awhile to get straight.  Why do some edits appear in text of article?  Are they inserted directly into the article edit or in Talk?  Actually, big issue is writing an article, not editing.  Editing straight forward once you remember to hit correct edit box.  Ability to preview is a big help, especially to avoid dumb mistakes. Have been through intro and sand box; so it is doable.  Still confused about what sub pages mean.  I understand that a lot of this has to do with standardization.  Last small point, it took me a long time to find an obscure reference that says Table of Contents automatically created in new article with 4 sections.  Searching on TofC got me no where. A good search functionality would help since that is one thing all technically challenged use now that we are in the world of Google and my favorite, Answer.com.  What if you could type in search "Table of Contents","discussion" or "edit +" (a glossary of sorts if you will) and get explanation of what it is and how to do it in addition link to basic instruction page. People would use as they wrote. Hope this helps.  Thanks for asking. [[User:Bill Falter|Bill Falter]] 16:53, 29 September 2007 (CDT)
::The MC chair does not offer leaves of absence. Any MC member has the option of asking for a leave of absence of up to 120 days. To view this as a manipulation of the charter only serves to demonstrate a total lack of understanding of its content. [[User:Dan Nessett|Dan Nessett]] 17:25, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
:I see what you mean, and certainly these are issues I had when I started using a wiki. Mostly I learned by watching what others did. Somethings i never knew, like that +, i usually just start a topic using the edit function and create a new header. However, some sort of document for users with no experience in a wiki environment would be useful.  A ''wiki for dummies'' -like document. We do have a few help pages but they are more to do with the markup (or code). I think a geography of citizendium might be useful, with the function of each tab ''etc.'' explained, similar to cars user manual. Would that be helpful to get you up and running faster? [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 17:33, 29 September 2007 (CDT)


<br />Precisely - "Citizendium for Dummies." Understand car user manual idea. Would it function as alternative to expanded search function?  Just don't want to let that search function go.  I think it would complement the quite good introduction series for new authors. Key is that so much information has been placed in introductory material that it is hard to remember where you ran across when time comes to use it.  Committing the entire Citizendium new article and editing process to memory before starting is a significant hurdle to getting started.  Me, I'm doing research on an article; so issue still in future.
Let me do an end run around this: I'm going to start participating, at least a little more, in the MC. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 20:30, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
> Note > Still using break button above to keep my comments in separate paragraph.  How many other ways to accomplish this and which is preferred?  See, the devil is in the detail. [[User:Bill Falter|Bill Falter]] 18:00, 29 September 2007 (CDT)


Two hits of the return bar works as well as the ''<nowiki><br/></nowiki>'' notation, but only one return means no new paragraph.  I never did work out the logic for that. Anyway, thinking about the big picture, you make good points and I'll think more about how to implement a solution. There is nothing worse than seeing enthusiatic people being prevented from writing because of hurdles with the interface. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 18:10, 29 September 2007 (CDT)
Now what was the topic in this section?  Umm ... oh yes, funding!  The financial report with monthly updates is good.  My request for daily updates is retracted. Still I wonder about putting the last three or so months in a location which a casual reader won't miss.  Nothing like perilously low funds to motivate a donation.  Regards, ... [[User:Peter Lyall Easthope|Peter Lyall Easthope]] 01:25, 9 August 2012 (UTC)


: I just had a thought while reading this discussion.  One of the ways that I learned to edit on wikipedia was to "copy" the text from an article that I liked the look of and then paste this into word and add my content - thus, it gave me a template to work in - had all of the codes already written in and all I had to do was change the source file in the case of a picture etc. What if we created a CZ article template that a new user or regular user could just copy and paste into their sandbox, word document or live into the article they are writing. This would facilitate having to write and learn code - they could delete what they didn't like and it would mean that most new articles would follow a standard format.[[User:Lee R. Berger|Lee R. Berger]] 04:44, 30 September 2007 (CDT)
Actually, Peter, I'm no longer the treasurer... --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 13:44, 9 August 2012 (UTC)


::Something like [[User:Anton Sweeney/Sandbox/Articletemplate|this]], maybe - or something more basic?  (You'll need to click 'Edit' to see what I'm talking about, otherwise you'll just see a bad copy of the Biology article).  Regards, [[User:Anton Sweeney|Anton Sweeney]] 09:34, 30 September 2007 (CDT)
== Nominations for Management and Editorial Councils ==
==disclaimer==
It will now appear on all article pages that are unapproved but not on their repective subpages. The following edit shows the [http://en.citizendium.org/wiki?title=Template%3ASubpages&diff=100179354&oldid=100179095 current text] you may want to tweek that a bit.  What about the location, is that what you had in mind?  Alternatives include above or below the tabs. What about other pages? That is possible too. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 12:18, 30 September 2007 (CDT)


You have been nominated for seats on both the [[CZ:Management Council|Management]] and [[CZ:Editorial Council|Editorial]] Councils in the [[CZ:Election July-August 2013|July-August Special Election]]. The nominator was myself. To accept or decline these nominations, please visit the Nominations page [[CZ:Election July-August 2013/Nominations#Management Council candidates and links to their Statements|here]] (for the Management Council seat) and [[CZ:Election July-August 2013/Nominations#Editorial Council Author candidates and links to their Statements|here]] (for the Editorial Council Author seat) by midnight UTC on July 27th. You may write an election statement for each if you wish (linked from the Nominations page).


== Approval process ==
The Management Council seat runs until June 30th, 2014 or June 30th, 2015 (the successful candidate with the fewest votes receiving the shorter term) and the Editorial Council seat expires on December 31st, 2013. In the event that [[CZ:Election July-August 2013/Referenda/1|Referendum 1]] is passed, all seats will expire on June 30th, 2014. Thanks! [[User:John Stephenson|John Stephenson]] 17:09, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
Larry, I just nominated an article for approval, but it has been a small nightmare to do so. First, the Help page for Editors on the approval process is well-nigh impossible to find; secondly, the Help instructions are wrong. They were not written for subpages. They also have mistakes, I think, relating to format of information. Please, can someone write proper Help instructions and put them in an accessible place? They should be for Editors to read, and detail clearly all of the technicalrequirements of the process. Many thanks, --[[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 15:49, 30 September 2007 (CDT)
:A further issue: having nominated 3 articles for approval, none appears in the relevant workgroup listing. Is there a lag? or a bigger problem?--[[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 16:12, 30 September 2007 (CDT)
::Are you sure about this?  In the [[:Category:Articles_to_Approve]] I can see [[Demographic transition/Approval]], [[Demography, fertility/Approval]] and [[Garmisch-Partenkirchen/Approval]]. Are these the ones you were trying to get approved?  You're right about the instructions.  The whole lot are wrng due to incremental changes I have made during the subpage tempalte design.  Hopefully it will be a lot easier once the instructions fit the process. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 17:23, 30 September 2007 (CDT)
:::OK the Garmisch-Partenkirchen one is clearly a old page since the article does not have subpages, I just deleted the approval page.  [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 17:30, 30 September 2007 (CDT)
[[Theodor_Lohmann]] did not show up becuase there was no approval page.  I set one up at [[Theodor_Lohmann/Approval]], this article should now show up in the [[:Category:Articles_to_Approve]]. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] [[User talk:Chris Day|(talk)]] 17:34, 30 September 2007 (CDT)
::Ah, thanks for your rapid response! I realise that the wiki changes make it hard for the Help pages to be accurate. --[[User:Martin Baldwin-Edwards|Martin Baldwin-Edwards]] 17:38, 30 September 2007 (CDT)

Latest revision as of 03:52, 8 March 2024

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10
11


Resolution 12

I'd like to cosponsor this along with David Volk, if that's okay. --Robert W King 18:32, 30 June 2008 (CDT)

This is always OK with me. --Larry Sanger 23:48, 15 July 2008 (CDT)

Way to go

...with the Write-a-Thon blitz, thanks!

Wonder if we can have a stub-a-thon/stubmania day sometime?

Aleta Curry 20:59, 2 July 2008 (CDT)

It's not a bad idea... --Larry Sanger 23:48, 15 July 2008 (CDT)

Happy birthday to you, dear Larry

I started Maxwell equations earlier than I intended, in honor of your fortieth birthday. Happy birthday! --Paul Wormer 11:18, 15 July 2008 (CDT)

Thanks, Paul! But...OK, what are the equations themselves? They aren't on the page!  :-) --Larry Sanger 15:56, 15 July 2008 (CDT)
Your wish is my command, see here.--Paul Wormer 04:12, 16 July 2008 (CDT)
Happy SIPRNET, point of presence (hit "minor" by accident), and a stubby Saudi Arabia. The day is still middle-aged. Howard C. Berkowitz 16:57, 15 July 2008 (CDT)

I started Netiquette and filled up at least one entry in each of the subpages, in honor of your birthday! Supten Sarbadhikari 22:30, 15 July 2008 (CDT)

Thanks, Howard and Supten! --Larry Sanger 23:48, 15 July 2008 (CDT)

Started a Hermeneutics stub as a present for you, Larry. Happy birthday! --Tom Morris 07:32, 16 July 2008 (CDT)

Larry, a new chemical that you probably have never heard before, Thiophosphoramidite, for your birthday. Enjoy, but don't smell it, cause it ain't roses, believe me! David E. Volk 10:02, 16 July 2008 (CDT)

And I open a bottle to drink to your next forty years, cheers! --Paul Wormer 10:24, 16 July 2008 (CDT)

It's still pretty stubby, but I don't think I'm going to get through the requisite reading for an expansion before your birthday is over: Miguel Ángel Asturias. ¡Felicidades! --Joe Quick 10:27, 16 July 2008 (CDT)

Congrats, youngster. Here is my birthday article for you: Ama Ata Aidoo. --- Regina Bouillon 19:11, 16 July 2008

40 yrs is very young. Is a new article still okay - 1 day late ? (Chunbum Park 13:08, 16 July 2008 (CDT))
here's a new article: happy birthday ! Yi Sunshin. (Chunbum Park 13:30, 16 July 2008 (CDT))

For a young guy like you, I made a stub. Just remember, next year, you turn 0x29. Anthony Argyriou 13:43, 16 July 2008 (CDT)

Unwrap Marcello Malpighi, kid, accessories to follow. --Anthony.Sebastian 19:23, 16 July 2008 (CDT)

Happy Birthday Larry! I didn't realize you were only 11 years older than me; that is truly young! --Robert W King 23:52, 16 July 2008 (CDT)

Happy Birthday Larry! I began the ENSTA article yesterday as a little gift :) (for you and Citizendium !) ! sebastien.worms 06:41, 17 July 2008 (CDT)

Thanks so much to everyone! --Larry Sanger 12:27, 17 July 2008 (CDT)

A bit late from me (of course). And an apology. I did write you an article, but found when I tried to insert it that the topic had been blocked for Eduzendium, so I'll keep that back. So the best I could do was take Thomas Kuhn up a notch. Hope you'll accept that for now and forgive me. Gareth Leng 16:29, 27 July 2008 (CDT)
Thanks for your work on philosophy of science topics, Gareth! --Larry Sanger 20:44, 27 July 2008 (CDT)
Georges Cuvier now live (at 40 he showed that dinosaurs could fly; so some of us are hoping you'll do as much for us).Gareth Leng 14:56, 28 July 2008 (CDT)

2009:
When I just nominated an article for approval, the date rang a bell, and so I thought there might be some use for orchid here, Larry. --Daniel Mietchen 07:19, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Hope you'll have (or was it yesterday?) a pleasant birthday with your family and friends. Happy birthday!--Paul Wormer 07:34, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
Happy Birthday Dr. Sanger. Meg Ireland 07:43, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

You mean I haven't archived this page in over a year? Amazing!

Thank you all!

I just arrived back from Russia and was out of commission for several days. In fact, with jetlag, I might be out of commission for a few more, but I do intend to put in some much-needed CZ time in the near future. Sorry for being AWOL. --Larry Sanger 11:35, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

2010?

2011 A bit belated, but my best wishes nonetheless. --Daniel Mietchen 10:33, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, Daniel! --Larry Sanger 00:49, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

good points

http://forum.citizendium.org/index.php/topic,1791.0/topicseen.html I would investigate and see what else this user suggests. Tom Kelly 16:39, 15 July 2008 (CDT)

Replied on the forums. --Larry Sanger 23:48, 15 July 2008 (CDT)


Everything?

Larry,

Somewhere today you asked about the Public/Related Articles: " Isn't "everything" a little too broad as a parent topic? And will we have an article titled "everything"? Interesting question...)" I saw your comment on the "Recent Changes" list for Sociology, but I'll be darned if I can find an original memo to reply to, so I'm posting here in the expectation you will see it.

I did that deliberately in part as a belated birthday present for you! And it got much the reaction I was expecting: interest. And yes, it seems to me a case can be made for at least a brief article by that title. I've long been intrigued by one of the management ontology projects in Toronto a few years ago (TOVE) that began an elaborate branching diagram with the term "Thing" and this is in much the same spirit. It's hard to get more parent than that!

One thing is clear and that is that Society most definitely is not a Parent topic of Public/Private and I will be removing it shortly. That usage throws neutrality right out the window and walks screaming and flailing right into the middle of some of the oldest and longest running theoretical issues in this area. The State/Society issue is a major part of it, but with respect to publics there are other issues as well. So, Society is definitely not a suitable parent for public.

As I thought about it, most dichotomies of public and private are, indeed, offered as universals to the extent that they do indeed seek to dichotomize everything. (Hence, the provocation.) What we really need here, I think, is some help from an epistemologist; No wait, we have one! And he's interested.

In short, I posted Everything in a rather lighthearted vein, and I would welcome any suggestions for alternatives, but there are some really meaty issues involved here, more than a few of which go right to the heart of your interests in this project. E.g. public domain

P.S.: I think both Thing and Everything are probably most appropriate topics for the philosophy workgroup. Suggestions for how we get them involved?

Roger Lohmann 20:47, 24 July 2008 (CDT)

Hi Roger, let me reply on Talk:Public so others can benefit. --Larry Sanger 09:35, 25 July 2008 (CDT)

EC Resolution

Will you please make a Resolution out of CZ:Proposals/Pilot_to_allow_Citizens_to_take_credit_for_pages and place it to the EC? Supten Sarbadhikari 23:16, 30 July 2008 (CDT)

Well, I'm not sure I'm so excited about it anymore. I'll have a look again though. --Larry Sanger 17:16, 31 July 2008 (CDT)

biology week

so when should the announcements and press releases go out? Surely, we should have advertisements of some sort out 1 month prior to the actual week itself. august 22 is rapidly approaching Tom Kelly 10:17, 13 August 2008 (CDT)

I totally agree, Tom. It's something I've been intending to get started on myself, and I was hoping our new hire would also be working on it...we'll get moving soon, one way or another. --Larry Sanger 22:14, 14 August 2008 (CDT)

Ronnie Drew

Just after noticing you mention that you like traditional Irish music. Would you be familiar with other Irish folk artists? I'm just curious because I'm thinking of writing articles for Phil Coulter and Tommy Sands. Denis Cavanagh 10:45, 18 August 2008 (CDT)

Well, I'm not really into "Irish folk" but Irish traditional. I don't know much about Coulter or Sands...but I did know about Ronnie Drew! --Larry Sanger 21:31, 18 August 2008 (CDT)

Subpages and code words

Moved section to this talk page section. --Larry Sanger 11:02, 21 August 2008 (CDT)

Jimbo Wales

... is now labeling challenges of his claims as sole founder of Wikipedia as trolling. See this.

While you're at it, would you mind modifying the "+" tab that adds a new section to "New section" or something similar?

Cheers, Thomas H. Larsen 19:27, 5 September 2008 (CDT)

Who cares?  :-) --Larry Sanger 12:39, 6 September 2008 (CDT)

True! Thomas H. Larsen 19:06, 7 September 2008 (CDT)
The folks who maintain the Wikipedia article on you have managed to keep the opening sentence reading Lawrence Mark "Larry" Sanger (born 16 July 1968[1]) is an American philosopher, co-founder of Wikipedia, and the creator of encyclopedia Citizendium.[2][3][4] despite attempts by Jimbo fanboys to mess with it. It's actually an example of how Wikipedia works, when it works - the folks defending that position have overwhelmed the other side with references, and if an uninvolved party gets called in to look at the dispute, he sees the references, and keeps the article saying that you co-founded Wikipedia. Anthony Argyriou 12:27, 8 September 2008 (CDT)
But think of the man hours wasted. That could also be cited as an example of why it does not work. Who has the time for such fights? Chris Day 12:53, 8 September 2008 (CDT)
Man centuries, you mean. But it *does* work, in the way that a Rube Goldberg contraption works, at least on paper.... Hayford Peirce 13:01, 8 September 2008 (CDT)
Well, there are some excellent Wikipedians out there - in fact, I've had the opportunity to work alongside them, and a truly good, honest, kind, and productive Wikipedian is a blessing to the Wikipedia project. Unfortunately, the project is also spoiled by "editors" who are arrogant and fancy themselves as know-alls. Thomas H. Larsen 04:10, 11 September 2008 (CDT)
My point is not addressing the many users that genuinely want to write content. That part works very well. The problem is the random noise from the drive by vandals, some who are very good at making subtle changes. That is where the time is lost. Chris Day 09:13, 11 September 2008 (CDT)
What are Man hours and Man centuries? Could someone explain the terminology? When I was in Wikipedia, I did defend Dr. Larry's claim to have co-founded Wikipedia. (Chunbum Park 07:17, 12 September 2008 (CDT))
Thanks, Chunbum. A man-hour (or person-hour) is one hour of work performed by anyone...similarly with man-days, man-years, etc. --Larry Sanger 08:30, 12 September 2008 (CDT)

(unindent) I started at Wikipedia around late 2001, and there was no question then that Larry and Jimbo were co-founders. I've updated Conservapedia's LS article accordingly. Hey, Larry, was that you who signed in the other day? --Ed Poor 16:10, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes it was--my first and probably only edit there.  :-) --Larry Sanger 23:04, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Sending off Endorsement Letter for Biology Week

Hi Larry, please see User_talk:Anthony.Sebastian#Endorsement_Letter and let us know whether it would be possible to send these mails from a citizendium account, preferably something like Biology_Week (at) Citizendium.org . Besides, I wonder whether there will be a press release on Biology Week and whether anyone is working on it. I think our PLoS text may provide a good basis for that. Thanks, Daniel Mietchen 03:34, 13 September 2008 (CDT)

Excellent!

Do you want me to set up that e-mail address then, Daniel? I will if you want me to.

As to the press release, the answer is that we want one but it doesn't exist yet. Basically, there's no need to ask me; I set up the Biology Week pages so anybody could dive in and get to work organizing it! --Larry Sanger 06:58, 13 September 2008 (CDT)

Actually I didn't add the header but I can fix it. It does not have to be at the top of every page. It could be restricted to the talk pages. Chris Day 14:31, 14 September 2008 (CDT)
That would be a reasonable solution (talk pages only). I do like having it on every page, though. --Larry Sanger 12:25, 15 September 2008 (CDT)
Is there any way I could horn in on the Citizendium email address thing in order to send out announcements to bloggers? Thanks, Brian P. Long 22:51, 17 September 2008 (CDT)
It's a good idea, but I need to access the login info at my computer at home (I'm on the road). E-mail me on Friday for it or simply start sending it out...you can quite legitimately say in the e-mail that you are a representative of CZ's Biology Workgroup. --Larry Sanger 23:15, 17 September 2008 (CDT)

Why don't we do both. I'll start sending out emails, and then we can send the same folks reminder emails from an official address once the week starts. Thanks, Brian P. Long 00:52, 18 September 2008 (CDT)

Right...remind me if I don't set it up soon. --Larry Sanger 19:28, 18 September 2008 (CDT)
First off, this is me reminding you again, Larry. Let me know when the CZ email address is online. Secondly, I was wondering if we or 43PR were going to be sending out any announcements by fax. I've been working on compiling a list of email addresses for prominent biology departments, and most are accessible online, but there are a few that only have fax numbers. Let me know either way. Thanks, Brian P. Long 09:23, 19 September 2008 (CDT)

Power outage

All--our power here in central Ohio took a massive hit and my Internet connection may be intermittent...

Also, I've got to get ready for a talk in L.A. in a few days. --Larry Sanger 12:26, 15 September 2008 (CDT)

Can't you divert some of that E-I-C power to batteries?
Semi-seriously, I talk a bit about the Ohio Valley Blackout at System Control And Data Network. Know anyone who would like to write a case study on the specific incident?Howard C. Berkowitz 12:56, 15 September 2008 (CDT)

I happen to know someone who could write the entry, but I don't know if he would like to! --Larry Sanger 13:55, 15 September 2008 (CDT)

Biology Week press release

As it's getting rather urgent, I put up a page to draft a press release for Biology Week. Some quotes from you, and others, would make it ready for release. --Tom Morris 17:19, 15 September 2008 (CDT)

Yep, I know. I'm planning to put my own final touches on it on Friday morning, and send it out then. We might be able to get 43PR to send it out for us, too... --Larry Sanger 23:13, 17 September 2008 (CDT)

Please join us for Biology Week!

Hello Larry,

I am giving you this personal invitation to join us this week for Biology Week!

Please join us on the wiki and add or edit biology articles. Also, please let your friends and colleagues who are biologists, biology students, or naturalists, know about Biology Week and ask them to join us, too. Any way you can help make it an event would be most welcome. Think of it as a Biology Workgroup open house. Let's see if we can kick up activity a notch!

Thanks in advance! --Larry Sanger 08:51, 22 September 2008 (CDT)

Welcome to CitizendiumArticles related to flightInvertebrate biologyPopulation biologyHumanArticles related to DNAArticles related to pollenCZ:Biology Workgroup/Biology WeekArticles related to chloroplastsArticles related to treesArticles related to bacteriaArticles related to fungiEvolution of CetaceansBig catArticles related to metabolismInsectCore articles
The first Biology Week took place here from Sep 22-28, 2008.
Hmmm...not sure what to say about that :) Aaron Schulz 09:40, 22 September 2008 (CDT)
:-) Just in case I forget. ha ha --Larry Sanger 12:08, 22 September 2008 (CDT)

semiauto-move feature

Just trying to figure out how to make moving clusters move automated. Currently its really confusing even when you know what you are doing. Also note movement on the subgroup proposal. The thread in the initiatives folder is active again (subworkgroup thread). Chris Day 22:57, 27 September 2008 (CDT)

Yep, semi-automating cluster-moving would be good. We really need to make it fully automated. As to subworkgroups, I noticed... --Larry Sanger 23:00, 27 September 2008 (CDT)
You can give it a test run by moving the metadata to a new name for any article. You'll see some links appear above the subpage bar at the top. They are all the links that need to be moved. Once they have all been moved you just have to update the pagename field in the metadata. I'm going to prettyify it, and it does not have every feature i envisage yet. Also it has not been fully tested, so beware. Fully automatic would be great if you know a programer. Chris Day 23:03, 27 September 2008 (CDT)
Can you write instructions and link to them in an appropriate place or places? I'll help test it out. Then we should announce it... --Larry Sanger 23:23, 27 September 2008 (CDT)

The only instruction you need is "make sure the very first move is the Metadata template". Instructions will then appear at the top of the page and allow you to go through the whole process. What I intend to do, but have not yet, is to make it easy to place the appropriate speedy deletes. At present every redirect will be left in place. In most cases this is not so bad. But the old metadata page really should be deleted. Chris Day 23:28, 27 September 2008 (CDT)

Forget all I mentioned here for now. i have to abandon my first attempt with the semi-auto move template as I found a fatal flaw that affects any article with an apostrophe in the title (long story). Chris Day 01:06, 28 September 2008 (CDT)
How frustrating... --Larry Sanger 08:22, 29 September 2008 (CDT)

I asked a question here on a mediawiki Q&A page. It does not mean that the semi-auto move function cannot be accomplished but the most seamless solution would not be possible. The next best thing would involve having a field in the metadata template with the name of the new target. This is not that complex but i would prefer if the template kicked in as soon as any page is moved rather than requiring an entry in the metadata page. Chris Day 08:53, 29 September 2008 (CDT)

Chris, did you try localurl, as in:
{{#ifeq: {{localurl:{{BASEPAGENAME}}}} | {{localurl:Arthur's Seat}} | They are equal | NOT equal}}
I have no idea what you're trying to do, so this may well be useless. -- Jitse Niesen 09:58, 29 September 2008 (CDT)
Excellent, that works!!! many thanks. Chris Day 12:27, 29 September 2008 (CDT)

Your proposal "Article task and notification list"

Dear Larry, I'm afraid I have been slack in managing all the proposals. However, inspired by the Monthly Write-a-Thon and its theme "spring cleaning", I now want to clear out all the proposals that are merely gathering dust and push the rest forwards. I see you made a proposal "Article task and notification list" which unfortunately is still without a driver. I hope you'll find a driver within a few days, in which case, please have the driver update the proposal record at CZ:Proposals/New#Article task and notification list. Otherwise, I will remove the proposal and put it on the pile of driverless proposals. -- Jitse Niesen 16:48, 1 October 2008 (CDT)

Thanks for getting back involved with this Jitse--it was badly needed. I'm not going to be able to drive this proposal myself so I guess it goes into the pile... --Larry Sanger 16:57, 1 October 2008 (CDT)

I had not noticed this before. It is just an extension of the todo list we already have to get the metadata completed. It would be very easy to have subpage specific task etc. I just need to know what we want in the boxes. Chris Day 00:48, 2 October 2008 (CDT)
At this point I suppose all you need is an editable box? When you say standard tasks this means you want to have a bank of standardised tasks that can be switched on or off? Chris Day 00:50, 2 October 2008 (CDT)
Right--I think you have it. The key line in my brief description is "This would serve a similar purpose to WP's various top-of-page notices." I agree, it should not be very difficult. Maybe the most difficult part would be in the design, because on the talk pages, the subpages template is generating something pretty confusing and messy. You can think creatively about how to do this, but here is an idea. I'd like to see a standard metadata page section, easy to read in text format (which loads only when the talk page is loaded). All the bits are set to 0 or N, and in order to make a notice, all you have to do is set it to 1 or Y. On the talk page, where the notices display, there should be a clearly-labelled link back to the metadata section where they can be edited.
Again, you might have a better way of doing this. --Larry Sanger 07:36, 2 October 2008 (CDT)
The proposal is now on the junk pile (CZ:Proposals/Driverless), but Chris, if you want to put some work in it, I would say that you just go ahead. You're subpage supremo anyway, so I think it's more efficient to bypass the whole proposal thingy. -- Jitse Niesen 15:01, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

We are back

Sorry for the downtime. One of our servers, which doesn't usually go down, went down...it's back up. My e-mail still isn't working, not sure why.

--Larry Sanger 11:20, 9 October 2008 (CDT)

I'm outta here

Please remove my name from the list of contributors to Citizendium. I have no use for your attack dogs -- e.g., on the forum discussion about my suggested subpage to the manga article.

Timothy Perper

Timothy Perper 23:44, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

This is wholly unnecessary, and at the risk of sounding like Jimmy Wales, just one big misunderstanding. Let me get back home and deal with the situation then. --Larry Sanger 06:36, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Page moves disabled?

Larry - are page moves disabled? And where do I go to request a move be made, if I don't (want to/feel comfortable with) moving a cluster? Anthony Argyriou 00:53, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi Anthony, nice to see you. No, page moves aren't disabled, or they shouldn't be.
Are others having this problem? If so, it must be because of the recent MediaWiki update. --Larry Sanger 02:04, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
Yes, for a week or so now. No Move tab at the top of my page, either in FF or IE. Hayford Peirce 02:06, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
Still? Howard moved something the other day (16th October). Chris Day 02:12, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
Well, as of the moment of me typing this, there is no Move tab up there. I saw that Howard did indeed move something the other day and figured that he was using his old CIA and NSA contacts to lend him a helping hand.... Hayford Peirce 03:38, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
Makes perfect sense. Chris Day 04:02, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
I e-mailed bugs and now we just have to hope the guys will do something.  ;-) --Larry Sanger 04:21, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Testing

Testing testing --Larry Sanger 17:51, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Finalizing the approval of Accidental release source terms was supposed to occur yesterday

Larry, the finalizing of approval of the Accidental release source terms was supposed to occur yesterday. Matt Innis usually does that chore, but he seems to be unavailable. So I also tried Ruth Ifcher, but no luck there either. Chris Day has said that he would take care of it if someone would authorize him to do so. Would you please authorize Chris? Milton Beychok 21:46, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

It's all right with me if Chris does this. On account of his work on the subpages template, Chris is already a sysop and should have all the permissions that he should need in the system to approve articles. --Larry Sanger 22:29, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Done. I was not sure if I could do it, not being a constable. Chris Day 00:57, 28 October 2008 (UTC)
Since so many of our constables are not responding, I think this is a perfectly suitable expedient. Thanks for taking up the slack1 --Larry Sanger 01:05, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

your assistance please...

A comment here was deleted by The Constabulary on grounds of making complaints about fellow Citizens. If you have a complaint about the behavior of another Citizen, e-mail constables@citizendium.org. It is contrary to Citizendium policy to air your complaints on the wiki. See also CZ:Professionalism.

George, please contact me and/or the Constabulary via e-mail if you have complaints about other Citizens. Complaining about another Citizen's behavior puts him on the spot, and on the defensive, which is why CZ:Professionalism doesn't permit it. --Larry Sanger 04:15, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Community boosting

How was I to know that the purpose of the page was to boost the community? --Paul Wormer 16:50, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Do you really mean to say it wasn't obvious? --Larry Sanger 17:34, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

No, it wasn't, I thought you expected an honest evaluation.

I've read in the meantime the recent discussion (I wasn't aware of its existence) and see my two main points confirmed: (i) People become irritated easily when using e-mail and/or the Web and (ii) editors are too easily overruled (or, at least, I seem to be not the only one who think so; I see now that a VIP left CZ for that reason a couple of days ago).--Paul Wormer 17:40, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, I did expect an honest evaluation; if you can't honestly recommend CZ, you shouldn't write anything on that page, I guess.

You wouldn't be aware of the existence of the cz-editcouncil discussion because the list is of the Editorial Council. I just thought in all honestly that you would find the discussion interesting and relevant, and I was evidently right!

The editor who left CZ recently was not overruled. He, for whatever reasons, likes to think and say so, but he is incorrect, and I've explained why several times. His definition of "overruled" seems to be: disagreed with by the Editor-in-Chief. Hence, whenever I disagree with an editor, I overrule him? Of course not. In fact, the problem that I personally had with the article in question still remains.

Also, even if it were a case of an editor being overruled, in this case it was the Editor-in-Chief who did the overruling. So that particular controversy isn't about the prerogatives of editors vs. authors, but about the prerogatives of the Editor-in-Chief vs. editors! --Larry Sanger 17:49, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Larry, I appended a paragraph, please have a look.--Paul Wormer 08:11, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
Looks fine with me then. Thanks. --Larry Sanger 14:00, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Greetings too from Martin Cohen

Hulo Larry, and gang of editors/ authors!

Thanks for you message, glad to be here, at the best part of the project methinks. You've got the principles absolutely right, and the technology works, we just need the content now. I hadn't realised there was so much to be done before CZ reaches 'critical mass' - enough material for people to start using it as a real reference work - at which point everyone will flock here and we'll need to spend our time correcting pages rather than writing them.

I put some details of what I plan to do on the 'philosophy talk' page too, and am getting down to work straight away - we must get those key philosophers 'rolled out'!

I'm going to copy this to my own talk page as well.

Venceremos!

Martin Cohen 13:10, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

(Goodnes,, I'm an 'oldie' here...)

Excellent, thanks! Oh, believe me, we've got a lot of oldies here.  ;-)-

We definitely need a lot of work done in philosophy, that's for sure. --Larry Sanger 13:58, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

One click moves all subpages

When did the option to move subpages get added? (or has it always been there?) This is going to make moving clusters much much easier. if you don't know what I'm talking about try and move a page with clusters and note that one of the options is to move all subpages along with the article. Chris Day 04:58, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Huh? I didn't notice! Yay! It must have been included in the most recent MW update, which we did a few weeks back (as you know). Totally...basically, moving a cluster is now a simple two-step process. --Larry Sanger 05:37, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I'll update that move cluster link on the talk page to reflect this change (that was a nightmare procedure so I'm glad to see that go). I also note that the automated moves got messed up in that update so other functions might not be behaving as we expect. Stephens upload wizard comes to mind, although I have not seen anything odd to date. Chris Day 06:05, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Sounds great. --Larry Sanger 14:13, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Help?

Hi Larry,

Sorry to "bug" you as it were, but the update a few weeks ago appears to have broken a template I was working on. Is there any documentation on the changes implemented in the new version?--David Yamakuchi 04:53, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Try [[1]]...I don't know that much about the technical details, I'm afraid. --Larry Sanger 06:07, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

CZ in French

Hello, I wish to let you know that I fully agree with your statement The people who want to hide behind pseudonyms, who want to play governance games in order to push their biases, and who want to prove their maturity and enlightenment by putting up pictures of naked little girls, can stick with Wikipedia. I have experienced that the same disfunction exists in the "WP in French". Therefore, am I waiting for the "CZ in French" creation. May I recommend not to wait until a great amount of bilingual Authors have joined CZ. May I recommend to start "CZ in French" with bilingual managers + French-speaking Authors. I believe that this push would fit the growth with quality strategy of CZ. Best regards.Thierry Henri Cauchois 13:47, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the push, Thierry--it is hard enough to manage CZ in English, but perhaps we should just set up the wikis and let those who are interested in the projects in other languages just get started. --Larry Sanger 17:10, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
There are a dozen or so articles I wrote in French several years ago for the French WP that could be imported (from the moment I stopped editing them, so that they are entirely mine), which would at least add a few items.... Hayford Peirce 17:52, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for answering. My analysis is based on two facts : 1- a huge amount of good quality articles already exists on WP in French; 2- a number of French WP contributors (or past contributors) are willing to contribute another way (a serious one). If importing articles from WP fits to CZ strategy, I would recommend for CZ to create the framework in French, then to select French CZ Authors entitled to start import (it is important to reach rapidly a critical mass of articles). In addition, being a user of the German WP, I have noticed its high quality standard. Perhaps is the same quick start possible. Friendly.Thierry Henri Cauchois 22:01, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
I will certainly give it some thought (again). --Larry Sanger 05:02, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Business world

Larry, I think that your community's encyclopedic coverage of the business world is severely lacking. (As you may know, I'm the founder/operator of a site that would call itself an encyclopedic business directory, so I may be shooting myself in my own foot by communicating this to you, but...) I would like to know your policy about entities writing about themselves, or (heaven forbid) paying a third-party encyclopedist to write about themselves. As an example, I have added the (non-paid) encyclopedic entry about National Fuel Gas. Note, I didn't bother with cleaning up formatting for your environment here, because I don't know if we're on the same level-set regarding the provenance of info about corporations. What is your opinion about such content as this article, and does it matter to you whether money has exchanged hands to generate said initial content (assuming, of course, that the tone and style of the work is encyclopedic and not marketing puffery)? -- Gregory J. Kohs 16:09, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

We have already thought about this and established two relevant, interrelated policies: CZ:Policy on Topic Informants and CZ:Policy on Self-Promotion.
In short, realistically speaking, I don't think it is possible to set up a system in which PR firms are permitted to write neutral prose for their clients. PR firms are specifically paid to make their clients look good. We are, shall we say, in a different business. I should think all of this would be obvious to anyone who understands the ethics of reference publishing. Evidently, the ethics of business directory publishing is different. --Larry Sanger 16:19, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
At no point did I mention "public relations firms", and I am not in the PR business. Your jumping to the "PR" label is similar to what Jimmy Wales did in August 2006, which many feel was a big mistake, because it just "drove underground" the efforts of people genuinely interested in disseminating encyclopedic information about entities with which they were affiliated. I won't bore you with examples. I also still seek your opinion about the writing tone and relevance to Citizendium of National Fuel Gas. I will now go and read the two policies you highlighted. -- Gregory J. Kohs 16:30, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
It would seem that your opinion may be in contradiction with CZ policy: "You may not, even if you are a topic informant, start an article about yourself, or any company, organization, website, or other entity, especially marketable entity, with which you are closely associated." Would you consider a paid encyclopedist to have a "close association" with the organization that he (relatively speaking) briefly researches, synthesizes, and publishes about -- especially considering that the content would then be released into the CC-by-sa realm, to be managed by literally anyone? My answer would be a clear "no", but I'll await your answers to this question and the one above about National Fuel Gas. -- Gregory J. Kohs 16:38, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
I don't really care what Jimmy Wales said. Sure, you didn't say PR firms; I did. Obviously, someone who is paid by a company to write about the company is acting as a PR agent for the company. But no important issues turn on whether we apply "PR firm" or "PR agent" in this case. Call them, simply, agents. My concerns still apply; they are substantive, not reducible to semantics.
You are obviously correct when you say that people affiliated with a company may sincerely wish to disseminate correct, even neutral information about the company. But that observation does not reply to the concern I have, namely, that if we adopt it as a general policy that agents of commercial enterprises (or of nonprofit or government enterprises, for that matter) may edit articles about their enterprises, we both lose credibility and have to doublecheck all information that these inherently biased agents insert. The correct answer to your question, about whether the paid encyclopedist has a close association with an enterprise, depends entirely on who pays the encyclopedist, now doesn't it? If, say, someone were sheerly out of the goodness of his heart decide to pay someone to work on CZ articles about businesses, and it could be proven that this person were not acting as anybody's agent but merely adding lots of useful information because it's so useful, well, I think that would be OK. But surely you aren't actually saying any such person, supported by a sheerly civic-minded entity, exists?
You may not understand our policy. I think any agent would be welcome to start business-related articles, post interviews, etc., in the TI: namespace. It would then be up to regular Citizens to decide whether to import those, or edited versions of them, to the main namespace.
If you think about it, for articles submitted by company agents, our Citizens would have to do due diligence in checking any potentially biased or self-serving information. Either we do this before the articles are posted in the main namespace, or we do it after. I think we should do it before, simply because we don't want to outstrip the volunteer resources we have.
After all this discussion, I'm afraid I don't have time to look into National Fuel Gas--I'm very, very busy with multiple projects these days. You could always ask on the Forums or on the talk page of that article...I'm betting some people will be willing to join in. There are several active people who understand the relevant policies. But I think I should ask whether National Fuel Gas had any understanding with you about your inserting it into CZ. In other words, were you acting as their agent, or were you merely adding information about the company? If you weren't acting as an agent, and you are trying to make a point by adding the article (I assume thanks are in order, by the way!), then what is your point? --Larry Sanger 17:11, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Your concerns about your site's credibility are of merit. I am simply going to predict, however, that by the year 2020, Citizendium will have less than 25% of the Fortune 1000 firms documented with articles, unless you or someone else decides to simply scrape them from another source. This, too, will have adverse effects on your site's credibility -- "a compendium with 25% coverage of the largest organizations on the planet?", people will chortle. Regardless, your position is actually very good for me in the long run, as a proprietor of a business directory site who would rather not have you as competition. I was mostly asking you these questions to allay any underlying pangs of Catholic "guilt" I might have, for not helping your encyclopedia with its development of business entity articles. You're coming up on two years of public content building, and you have articles only about National Fuel Gas and Nintendo in the Business Workgroup category subheading for the letter "N". Yesterday, it was only Nintendo.
The National Fuel Gas company has no idea who I am, and I have no payment relationship or history whatsoever with them. The "point" of that article is simply to demonstrate the "tone" and "style" of how a paid encyclopedist might write an article about a company, without technically being a "public relations" agent of the company. I would offer you about a dozen examples of paid articles that I've created, but then they would get deleted from Wikipedia, and after two years of their thriving there, I'd really hate to so foolishly sabotage my good content. So, I doubled your site's coverage of the "N" companies, and now I'll be on my way, since your concerns about bias and "self-serving" content outweigh your concerns about lack of coverage. I can live with that, and I still wish you the best of luck with your concept. I worry, though, that you will have a pristine but tiny compendium that only 1% of Internet users will ever visit. -- Gregory J. Kohs 17:34, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
The same article exists at WP, word for word. There has been no attempt to modify it for the CZ article as it stands. So, assuming that you want to leave it here, it has to have the WP template attached to it. Hayford Peirce 17:36, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Even if the authorship of both articles is entirely my own, and the origination of the words therein predates its being uploaded to either Wikipedia or to Citizendium? I mean, if you want to get technical about chickens and eggs, let's be careful. I would be particularly offended if the article received a "WP template", when it was created on December 10, 2006, by me, long before Wikipedia copied it from my site. -- Gregory J. Kohs 17:45, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for your concern, Gregory.
As to the article and crediting WP, simply put a notice at the top of the talk page saying that you are the sole author of the article (if, in fact you are!) and then nobody will check the "from WP" checkbox. But if anyone from WP has made any edits to this article, i.e., if even a comma was from a Wikipedian, we have to credit WP as a source.
You can also feel free to credit MyWikiBiz.com at the bottom of the article just as we credit Wikipedia as a source for WP-started articles. But then, people will probably also want, on the talk page, your above disclaimers to me about your lack of involvement with National Fuel Gas. --Larry Sanger 18:34, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Open letter to Larry Sanger

As per Larry's request, I have deleted this entire thread and moved it to: http://forum.citizendium.org/index.php/board,73.0.html in the Non-Member's Forum Discussion. Hayford Peirce 03:06, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Specialized editor

Larry, I see some articles that are ready for approval. Could I be made specialist editor for the following categories based on my indicated experience below?

  1. Boxing: 2-time state amateur champion and long-time fan
  2. Bowling: 1-time city league champion and long-time bowler
  3. Soccer: 10+ years playing and paid referee of youth soccer leagues for several years
  4. Sailing: Have sailed on boats ranging from 16' cats to 44' yachts (island living is sooo tough!)

David E. Volk 21:47, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi David, I am impressed!

Could you send me some more details by e-mail please? --Larry Sanger 02:48, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Holy Schnikes

My edit above seems to be attributed to Chris Day. Do we have a new bug? David E. Volk 21:54, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

That is way bizarre. I will see what the tech guys say about it. --Larry Sanger 02:51, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Not bizarre, I copied and pasted it here from Talk:Larry Sanger. Chris Day 03:07, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Doh! --Larry Sanger 03:31, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

categories revisited

Larry, how did you get the talk page categories to only show the article name? Would it be possible to do a similar trick for the template namespace such that any category on the metadata template would only show up in a category list as just BASEPAGENAME (not Template:BASEPAGENAME/Metadata)? I should add, this is asking for one extra thing compared with the current talk namespace, as in that case a category on a 'Talk:Article/Draft' type page will be listed as "Article/Draft" not "Article" in the category list. Chris Day 04:12, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

A "magic word" probably, but what template are you referring to? --Larry Sanger 04:23, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

All the metadata templates, but I imagine what ever rule is in place will be valid for all templates. Do you want the long version, although, if it's not possible then the whole thing is moot anyway. See the bottom of my talk page, response to Matt, to get a bit of a feel for what I am thinking. Chris Day 04:28, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm still confused. As you know, I haven't worked on the subpage templates & metadata templates associated with subpages to any significant degree since you took them over. Do you mean the metadata templates for the userinfo system? Sorry... --Larry Sanger 04:38, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
No, the one for clusters, i.e. Template:Biology/Metadata. Here is the problem. When workgroups or a status are changed in the metadata of a cluster the categories do change on the article and subpages but these changes do not get registered in the relevant categories unless an actual edit is made to the page. Consequently, we have to make minor edits every time after a change in the metadata to make the article names appear in the correct category lists.
I am beginning to realise that this is going to be a big problem as our size increases. One solution is to have all the categories on the metadata template. Then, as changes are made to the metadata, all the categories will "register" immediately. This does not mean no category links will appear in the articles or the subpages, there can still be links based on the information in the metadata. We already do this on the draft pages, look at the top of Biology/Draft and Chemical_engineering/Draft, you'll see links to categories but there are no workgroup categories on the page. This is still a short explanation but might help you understand the problem better. Chris Day 04:50, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
That does sound like a prickly problem...I'd need to think more about it. It might have a server-side solution; might be a good idea to run it by the bugs guys. Well, I'm off to bed...also, if the problem would be handily solved by putting categories on the metadata page, as you suggest, then why not do that? --Larry Sanger 04:55, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
I would, but then every category would have a list of article names stating with "Template" and ending with "/Metadata". Apart from being an eyesore, it would also be much harder to parse the information. This brings us full circle ;) See my initial comment above. Chris Day 04:58, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
Gotcha. I'd have to do research, it'd take time...maybe I'll be able to help, but don't count on it...sorry! --Larry Sanger 20:31, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
By the way, you said, "how did you get the talk page categories to only show the article name," thereby implying that I had performed this feat. I was asking, where do you think I performed the feat? If you could point me to my performance I might be able to explain it.  :-) --Larry Sanger 20:32, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
Great, the proverbial needle in a haystack. I'll see if i can root it out. Chris Day 20:42, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

M.C. Lake article

what's a biology editor doing by tearing out an entire section? I can't and won't have that. I won't finish the article if that's going to be the case. i thought this wasnt wikipedia. S. W. Kolterman 06:28, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
I sent an e-mail to try and explain the confusion. I take responsibility here, I did not explain my edits. Chris Day 14:23, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
Looks like Chris was just moving sections to subpages, which is something we do here...in fact, this is one of the ways we aren't like Wikipedia. See CZ:Subpages. --Larry Sanger 14:47, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Blurriness

Not "worried," Larry, just provoking thought. Russell D. Jones 18:57, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

And that you are doing, Russell. I appreciate it. Some calm, careful reflection on all these matters is definitely needed. --Larry Sanger 19:02, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Mostly my own thoughts. On the HW we are also having the same sort of sorting out "what the heck are we doing here?" Russell D. Jones

Traffic

Larry, have you been watching CZ's page views over the last month? Russell D. Jones 21:50, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I have! Pretty amazing, isn't it--I can't account for it. --Larry Sanger 04:25, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
Homeopathy? Chris Day 08:55, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
I do not know which measure of CZ page views you used but I had been testing an Alexa toolbar on one of my computers from about Dec 17 on (for other purposes) and switched it off on Feb 2 after I saw this discussion. I guess this explains much of the variability in their CZ page view stats during that period. --Daniel Mietchen 00:01, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
Could one person have made that much of a difference? Hmm...  ;-) --Larry Sanger 01:11, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
Daniel, I think that Russell and Chris are talking about the Forums page views which increased very dramatically recently... and the Alexa statistics are about Citizendium page views which hasn't changed much recently. Milton Beychok 01:17, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
Could one person have made that much of a difference? Hmm... If so, then lets all add Alexa toolbars! :-) D. Matt Innis 01:54, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
If my guess goes into the right direction, this would also indicate that none of the CZ regulars edits CZ via a browser with active Alexa toolbar. My next guess, then, would be that many of the users of these toolbars also contribute to WP - yet another (though certainly minor) reason why the two projects fare differently in terms of commonly used traffic stats.
In terms of whether one person could have such a visible effect: "reach" (dunno exactly what this signifies, but perhaps the number of different IPs accessing the site) has not changed during that period but "rank" and "page views" did, so I think it is possible. And if you really wanna know, it would be easy to do an experiment of this sort: Matt could choose a few of the regulars and ask them (perhaps better in private) to use such toolbars (perhaps not always but following a suitable protocol) when editing CZ for the next four weeks or so, and after this period, their identity could be revealed and the observed pattern in the graph compared to their activity on the wiki (alternatively, if we all trust him, he could write a report without revealing the identities). But we may have more pressing things to do... --Daniel Mietchen 03:00, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Trying to understand

Hi, Larry: I note that CZ:Proposals/New lists three New proposals. I also note that CZ:Proposals/Editorial Council lists Active proposals before the Editorial Council (many of which have been sitting there over six months).

  • How does a New proposal get to be an Active proposal?
  • Also, why are those Active proposals still sitting there without the Editorial Council being notified to vote on them?
  • Who is responsible for moving Active proposals to a vote?
  • And who is responsible for moving New proposals to Active proposals?

I'm not complaining ... I'm just trying to understand how the proposal system works and you are the only one I thought could explain it to me. Many thanks in advance, Milton Beychok 09:07, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm a little confused as well. My understanding is that as Secretary of the Editorial Council, I become responsible for moving these into the process once introduced, but, after they have been, it is the role of the (currently vacant, I believe) Proposals Manager (or Driver?) to making sure they progress. The role of the Secretary is, other than certain technical details when the Proposal is newly submitted, to be the parliamentary authority for that procedure. Howard C. Berkowitz 12:21, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
I saw this list yesterday. I'm willing to devote some time to these proposals. Russell D. Jones 15:20, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Milt, thanks for asking. Many of your questions about how the proposals system is supposed to work are answered on Archive:Proposals/Policy. But we've been falling down on the job here with our proposals system. The system is meant to be a combination of bottom-up (people making proposals) and top-down (other people if necessary take over proposals as "drivers," and a Proposals Manager. But, no doubt because many people have lost interest, our Proposals Manager, Jitse Niesen, appears to have lost interest, and I have failed to follow up myself (I'm supposed to be managing him). But, especially with an active (or newly active) Proposals Manager, the system can still move forward. I've just e-mailed Jitse.

Answering some more specific items Milt above:

> How does a New proposal get to be an Active proposal?

A complete proposal needs to be made, i.e., not just the yellow box, but the page that comes up when you click on the "Complete proposal" link. If this is done and the proposal is in order, according to the system, the Proposals Manager is supposed to move the proposal to the appropriate proposal list page.

> Also, why are those Active proposals still sitting there without the Editorial Council being notified to vote on them?

Because nobody has made them into full-blooded resolutions yet. All Editorial Council resolutions need sponsors. The mere fact that a proposal appears on CZ:Proposals/Editorial Council does not make it automatically a resolution (though perhaps it should). If they have sponsors, proposals can be converted into resolutions very easily, in an almost perfunctory way. See this section.

> Who is responsible for moving Active proposals to a vote?

It depends on the type of proposal. Again, see this section, and bear in mind that not all decisions may be made by vote, though many will be.

> And who is responsible for moving New proposals to Active proposals?

The Proposals Manager.

Now from Howard:

> My understanding is that as Secretary of the Editorial Council, I become responsible for moving these into the process once introduced,

Here are what the rules say. From Archive:Proposals/Policy#Decisionmaking_groups, speaking only about Editorial Council proposals (not other kinds): "If the driver is not a Council member, and no Council member is ready to sponsor the proposal/issue and make it into a resolution, then e-mail the Secretary of the Council (Howard C. Berkowitz). The Secretary then has the responsibility of posting (if necessary) repeated calls for sponsorship. If no Council member will sponsor the resolution after three calls, it may be considered declined."

Other than that, the Secretary of the Editorial Council has no responsibility here.

> but, after they have been, it is the role of the (currently vacant, I believe) Proposals Manager (or Driver?) to making sure they progress.

I don't think Jitse has actually resigned. We'll find out soon enough.

> The role of the Secretary is, other than certain technical details when the Proposal is newly submitted, to be the parliamentary authority for that procedure.

I'd have to look, but strictly speaking the Secretary is the head of the Rules Committee (currently consisting of...drumroll please...you), which is the parliamentary authority, but it is the Chair that ultimately decides the interpretation of rules. The Secretary has nothing whatsoever to do with the rules governing the Proposals System, which is a project-wide system governed ultimately by little ol' me (with input from the Executive Committee).

As usual, this is all revisable, none of this is written in stone, and some of it will certainly have to change with some things we've been talking about in the forums recently.

And from Russell:

> I'm willing to devote some time to these proposals. Russell D. Jones

Hi Russell, thanks for your offer--do you mean you're willing maybe to take over as a driver of several proposals, or perhaps even Proposals Manager?

>>>>I mean that I'll look at them, try to resuscitate some. Proposals' Manager? Let me sleep on that one..... Russell D. Jones 19:56, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

--Larry Sanger 19:42, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

A user page isn't really the place to get into this, but you had told me that the role of the Editorial Council, which I had thought was defined by CZ: Editor Policy#Editorial Council, was redefined by Resolution 0001 to be limited to the approval of proposals. I believe these two sources are not reconciled, but, if the Proposal System is not under the Editorial Council, then I have difficulty understanding what responsibilities, if any, actually reside with the Editorial Council. Howard C. Berkowitz 19:49, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
I think you must have misunderstood me, or I said something confusing myself--or quite possibly both. However that is, the fact is that there is a difference between a proposal in the Proposals System, on the one hand, and a Resolution that is before the Editorial Council, on the other. I think this is very clear from the combination of Archive:Proposals/Policy and CZ:Editorial Council Rules of Procedure. As to what responsibilities reside with the Editorial Council, please examine those two documents as well as CZ:Editor Policy#Editorial Council. And I hope there's no reason to "get into" anything at all here. Please just read the documents themselves, and if you have any quick questions, I'll be happy to answer them here to the best of my ability. If you have any objection, deeply insightful or constitutional or otherwise, the forum would probably be the best place for that. --Larry Sanger 19:58, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Larry, have you had any luck contacting Jitse regarding the logjam in the processing of proposals? Or has anyone else offered to serve as the Proposals Manager? I am sure you agree that something simply has to be done to clear up that logjam. Regards, Milton Beychok 23:16, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
Milt, I've tried again by e-mail earlier today--let's wait a bit more. I agree completely about the logjam. I'm sorry for my own failure to break it up. --Larry Sanger 03:46, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
Larry, I don't mean to be a pest ... but the proposal logjam really must be cleared. As a member of the Editorial Council, I know that we haven't been asked to vote on a proposal for many months now. Surely, if Jitse were going to respond, he would have done so by now. Milton Beychok 05:48, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
Milt, sorry...you are right. Jitse did respond and said he would be happy if someone would take over for him. We just need to make a call for volunteers on that front... --Larry Sanger 15:09, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
Don't wait for me. I had started looking over some proposals but I'm in a fit of grading right now and don't see where I'll have more than a few hours a week for CZ until May. But, Milt's right, we should get moving on things. Could there be an easy form to turn a proposal into a resolution? Russell D. Jones 02:15, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


Kid's pages

Larry, I thought that you might find a new page that I am working on of interest:

USA education, preschool

Not sure about how to classify it besides the fact that it is education. I did not want to just call it Preschool, because there is items in there that are USA centered (US History people, US Holidays, etc.), but I don't have a problem with other copying the page and modifying it for other countries.

Also, are you in charge of maintaining the MediaWiki code? If so, is there the possability to set things up so that images can be directly referenced from Wikipedia commons? I want to add images to articles, but I am not interested in downloading them from Wikipedia to just upload them here, especially if I would be required to find all contact info, licenses, etc. I know that I am being lazy, but I am also being honest.

My main gripe with Wikipedia was that there is images ( and content) that I don't think children should have access to, but they have a great selection of images. So I would like to work on Gallery pages for this site. Melissa Newman 13:58, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Melissa, first, by all means, please do compile galleries here--we love them. And since you ask: I'm not in charge of maintaining the MediaWiki code, and frankly I don't think there would be a lot of support for leaning on Wikipedia's servers in the way you suggest, especially because we do require the contact information; we're trying to be good Citizens in every sense, you see.

But now about your preschool project. It looks great! But I would ask you to do two things. The first is to move the lists to a CZ:Catalogs subpage of the preschool article, or else to the CZ: namespace (that might be better), because what you are compiling is a list of topics that preschoolers study. Possibly CZ:Kiddiwiki or CZ:Kidipedia, but I think those names might already be taken.

Some topics on the list really aren't suitable as topics for CZ articles, such as "above and below." But this isn't a problem if you are meaning to start "kid pages." In that case, what I would have you do is write at least a brief description of the project you'd like to start, put it on the forums so people can discuss it, and then announce the proposal on Citizendium-L (or, ask me to do so), so we can get as many people as possible working on it with you. I might contribute. I do quite a bit of this sort of stuff for my little boy. --Larry Sanger 20:09, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

P.S. my comment from yesterday on Talk:USA education, preschool. --Larry Sanger 20:10, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Larry, please excuse me for getting into this ... but I thought the following post by Melissa in the Forums a few days ago might better explain her idea about getting images from Wikimedia Commons:

I had recently installed a personal MediaWiki, so I have recently played around with the LocalSettings.php file. There are variables that are easy to setup to allow accessing images on http://commons.wikipedia.org. Is it possible to get this setup, so we can add Commons images to our articles? Here is the code:

$wgForeignFileRepos[] = array(
'class' => 'ForeignAPIRepo',
'name' => 'shared',
'apibase' => 'http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/api.php',
'fetchDescription' => true, // Optional
'descriptionCacheExpiry' => 43200, // 12 hours, optional
'apiThumbCacheExpiry' => 43200, // 12 hours, optional, but required for local thumb caching );

I have tested this on my personal Wiki and it works. I am not sure for a high traffic site like this what other variables will need to be set.

Melissa Newman

Also, see Here where both Chris Day and I felt it would sure make life easier to get images from Commons much more easily than can be done now. Milton Beychok 22:10, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

OK, I will reply there. --Larry Sanger 00:57, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Catalog vs. curriculum

I understand the concept that people want the list of article names on a sub-page. I understand the concept of a catalog. The only problem that I have with that name is that most people who would be interested in the information that I would be creating in the format that I am creating would be looking for the information under the name curriculum. Even if the concept of a catalog is the same thing, the terminology is not the terminology used in the field. A list of topics on what is taught in a grade level is called a curriculum. If you are talking about several years of schooling in one or more subjects it is called a sequence. It might also be referred to as a list of topics.

If I saw catalog under Preschool, I would expect to find a list of merchants, books, or apparateuses that would help me to teach a preschooler the curriculum. Bibliography is a list of books and possibly tapes and movies. But I would not expect to find ETA Cuisenaire (a company that makes educational apparatuses) listed there or Carolina science (a company that sells science equipment).

Maybe the problem is that I have never seem a catalog page like the ones that you are creating on this wiki. When I get a catalog in the mail, it is a list of items that I can buy or a list of companies that I can buy from.

Melissa Newman 17:33, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Melissa, I may be wrong but I believe that you can name a subpage "Curriculum" if you so wish. Contact Chris Day who is our subpage guru. Milton Beychok 19:31, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
Melissa, your argument is an argument for scrapping the name "Catalog" altogether, which I'm actually sympathetic with (in favor of "Tables"). Please see CZ:Catalogs and CZ:Subpages if you haven't yet. I do not encourage ad hoc names for subpages; standardization of information types is a good thing and we should stick to it as much as possible.
All this being said, again I have to ask what the purpose of this whole effort is. If (1) it is merely to develop a list of topics of interest for preschool education, then a Catalog is exactly the right place to put it, under our current system, and your frustration will then be with the name for the information type we have (alternatively described as a table, information summary, compendium, almanac, or catalog). But if (2) it is instead to develop a new system kid pages, such pages really belong either in another namespace (my off-the-cuff preference, subject to more cogitation and discussion) or possibly in a new subpage type (not so good, for a variety of reasons). Could you clarify if you want to do (1) or (2), or something else? --Larry Sanger 01:06, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
Larry, please excuse me for entering this conversation and I promise not to interrupt again after this. However, CZ:Article-specific subpages indicates fairly clearly that we may create article-specific subpages ... does it not? Or am I missing something? Milton Beychok 04:24, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
That was written as part of a proposal, it has not been discussed in detail and certainly not been to the editorial council. Obviously I disagree with Larry on this point :) (I wrote the proposal), and I could expand on my reasons but this is not the place. I might add that after an extended discussion I could see the idea in a new light. The idea was precipitated from a comment about usability on Petréa Mitchell's talk page that was precipitated by an essay that Petréa wrote. In short, it is not official. Chris Day 04:41, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
By golly, let's get it in front of the Council sooner rather than later! --Larry Sanger 05:32, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
I vote 100% a million times over for a separate namespace for a student encyclopedia. As for if there should be a separate one for children and students, I will leave that final decision to you as "Editor-in-Chief". I think that it can go either way. Now going into begging mode ... pretty please with cherries on top and marshmallow topping setup a separate namespace for students! I promise to put my name on the workgroup. Melissa Newman 21:22, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Just to be clear I think these are two distinct issues. Chris Day 21:25, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Chris--agreed. Melissa--starting a whole new (complementary, but also rather different) project is another issue that certainly has to come before the Editorial Council. In the meantime, I think continuing to discuss the general concept, and figuring out both what would be best according to general editorial requirements, and according to the existing community's preferences, would be a good way to spend some time...
Actually, come to think of it, what we really need to do is feel out the CZ community and other potentially interested parties to see if there is enough interest in actually starting up the project. The very last thing I want to do is start a project that there just won't be enough people to support. I would put out some feelers myself, to gauge interest, but...ugh, I don't have time right now! --Larry Sanger 21:48, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Here is a summary of things I have already written on the forums. I like the idea of a new namespace with a different unique header, to separate the projects. In that way a distinct subpages structure can be used (it could even have vertical tabs). I think workgroups should not have a role but I could see a role for K12 specific subgroups for CZ authors with an interest in contributing to both projects. I like the idea of limited links between the projects (possibly a tab on CZ articles when a K12 version exists in the other namespace). One technical issue is that the hyperlinks in the K12 namespace should automatically be restricted to that namespace rather than linking to main space. Chris Day 22:10, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Chris, what effect would your proposal of a new namespace have on our servers? Even with my high-speed cable service, CZ is maddeningly slow very often. Milton Beychok 22:39, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
I have no clue. I wonder if the slowness might be due to the subpages template drawing too many resources. The sooner the subpages structure is hard wired the better but as a non-programmer I don't even know what is possible. Chris Day 22:56, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, I brought out the indent, because it was going too far inwards.
First, the technical answer about the slowness. This is most likely due to the fact that the pages are not accessed that often, so they are always being processed. I think that there is a way to say that all of the pages in a certain namespace should be generated into cache. Look at the programs in the maintenance directory of the source code. The expiry of those pages can also be set to be a longer time period than the main pages (for example, a year unless we know that they are changed. If the sub-pages are always generated automatically, then there is going to be slowness issue. But again, if the pages are cached as html, there should not be an issue. Everything goes back to the cache and the expiry of the cache. There are also several different versions of cache, but I have never personally played around with a cache server.
Back to the discussion at hand.
If you plan to put out the feelers within this specific group, the only people you are going to find that are going to express a strong interest is myself and you Larry. I have not seen strong positives from anybody else. The people who would be interested are not here at the current time. The people that would be interested are currently writing their own blogs, writing their own curriculum, homeschooling their children, helping the Gutenburg project, communicating on homeschooling websites and yahoo forums, trying to start their own website without much success, or just plain given up. People have tried to start kid specific wikis, but from what I have seen, they are just not able to build a strong enough foundation to even get their foot off the ground. A person looks at the website and it just has the feeling of being dead.
In any project, there is several components. First, there is the physical source code. Second, there is the look and feel of the site. The third is the foundation of the templates. Fourth is the foundation of the images and other media (country flags, standard medical images, historical sites of interest, pictures of works of art, audio of famous music, etc.). Fifth is the foundation of the articles. What articles need to definitely be included and what is extra? Britannicas children's encyclopedia (stories) has 15 volumes with about 1000 articles. First encylopedias that I have seen have 500 at most, because what would be separate articles in another encyclopedia would be put into one article on a first encyclopedia. A student encyclopedia would have 5000 articles at most, but more likely 3000. Although in my own database adding in idioms and stories can easily bring a hard article count to over 6,000.
The main issue is images. Wikipedia has a great resource of images, but they also have a bunch of image categories that are not appropriate for children. "category: ren"? And that is just one example. There is no way to filter wikipedia images, because there is logic to the categories. "Category:Missionary position" has a parent category of "category:man on top".
Using any wiki for student research is not a good idea. The foundation of student research skills should be built upon traditional sources (aka books). Once this website is more established, will the view of this website change? I don't really know. I will personally go with the general view of how librarians and teachers respond to this project.
I like the format of how this website is setup -- a gallery page for every article. The sub-page concept makes a nice design.
How many levels of encyclopedia do we need? Preschoolers: I can't see a parent reading to their child from a computer screen. They will look at images together, and they will listen to sound together, but I have never read to my preschooler from a website. My preschooler likes to see the picture of the bear and click on the button to hear the bear growl. Plus, one can buy a preschool/first encyclopedia for $20 from ebay. I think that preschoolers needs can be met through gallery pages on a different project.
Junior level: This is the story level. The pages are presented in story format. The images that preschoolers need, this group needs. The images that this group needs, the next higher group needs. So in my opinion, this group's needs can be met through a story or read-aloud sub page of the next level up. The next level up is the student level.
Having the student encyclopedia being a sub-page of the adult pages is not a good idea, because it goes back to the original problem of images. The images that adults need and want are going to be different than what students need and want. There will be overlap, but there will also be differences. The three levels of students can share a namespace, but student and adults can't share a space.
Will the image issue make even sharing the same namespace an issue? In the end, that may be true. Adults feel very strongly about not having any restrictions on their content. Children need restrictions. This is done in movies, music, magazines, stores, and a host of other areas. To expect that not to be an issue on a website is not realistic. Although, this website was built upon the concept of family friendliness. Will the combination of that and gallery pages be enough of a general protection? It may take a couple of years to get an answer to that.
As for the catalog issue ... until the issue of where the physically place the student pages or even if they should be allowed, should be settled before the issue of catalog pages. Changing "curriculum" to "catalog" is a one line change. Even if I made 10 pages, it would still be a small change. Changing where student pages are physically located is a big change. That is why that issue should have a higher priority.
Melissa Newman 14:25, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

(undent more) Melissa you wrote: "If you plan to put out the feelers within this specific group, the only people you are going to find that are going to express a strong interest is myself and you Larry. I have not seen strong positives from anybody else. ". I think you need to look harder. While there are those who have said they would not have any interest in participating it is not correct to say there is no support. Chris Day 15:47, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Put me on the support list. Seeing the work that Melissa has put out in the short time that she has been here, I don't doubt she can create the interest to attract others with her passion. :-) D. Matt Innis 03:01, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Melissa--interesting thoughts, and we have similar goals insofar as I'm teaching my little boy a lot of things now, too, and we intend to homeschool him (basically, we already are doing so). But, I'm puzzled--if you think there isn't going to be any interest in the project, you're declaring that the project will not succeed from the get-go, aren't you? A community-built project requires lively interest if it is to succeed.
I'd love to do this, but when I put my manager's/boss hat on, I have to wonder if we can. The quite possible lack of a quorum is one big concern. Then, frankly, I would like to partner with a publisher, one that is also a Web publishing company with Web 2.0 experience, to create a brand new wiki. If CZ takes this on, it will overextend me, personally, even further--and that would not be good for anybody, believe me. Notice, Melissa, you say we need to do this, this, and that. Who is going to do this, this, and that, or see to it that these things are done? Who else but me? Of course, if there were someone that I knew, who I knew I could trust to do a great job (working full time--that's what it takes to start up a new project like this), and who could take on a children's project in the CZ fold, then I might support the idea. But I don't know of such a person.
I agree that most parents of preschoolers won't look at Web pages--that idea actually seems silly to me, on consideration. Instead, there needs to be individual pages, something like what you see on http://www.brillkids.com/ -- PowerPoint-type presentations. I've actually toyed with the idea of somehow partnering with BrillKids on a little kid's encyclopedia. The entries would take the form of multimedia slideshows. What they are doing at present is, frankly, pretty low-quality, and it is derivative of the work of Glenn Doman, which in my nonexpert opinion has some problems.
Finally, I agree that easy image-grabbing or -uploading is absolutely required. New software is needed to make this as easy as possible. Basically, there needs to be a browser extension that allows people to drag and drop images from Flickr & Wikimedia Commons. Without this, it will be way too hard to create the articles, and the project will probably die due to the difficulty of using the MediaWiki system to host images. This is another reason I say that we would probably have to partner with someone. --Larry Sanger 16:46, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Larry, the technical difficulties with images on this project are a result of the editorial decisions made by the editorial board, not technical issues. MediaWiki allows one to include an image from a URL, upload an image from a URL, include images from wiki commons. There is also extension on MediaWiki for importing images from flickr based on commons license. It all goes back to the LocalSettings.php file and adding a few extensions. But as you said previously, you don't want to be bound by Wikipdia comons. As for allowing uploads by URL, it should be allowed under certain groups. For example, any author / editor of the workgroup media should have access to this feature. Or maybe say all editors have access to this feature. I just tried to set it up on my own MediaWiki install. The MediaWiki part is easy. The only snag I ran into was php curl libraries.
As for who is going to be responsible. If you want somebody full time, are you going to pay them a salary? If you are willing to pay for a full-time editor/writer, I can get you somebody by tomorrow. Also, which comes first, the chicken or the egg? Do we setup the foundation and look for people or do we look for people and then setup the foundation? I vote for setting up the foundation first. If things really don't work out, we merge the already written articles back into the main namespace, if appropriate. An SQL script can accomplish that in a couple of minutes. Otherwise they just get deleted. You can also develop interest by looking at numberous startups of kid wikis. Contact the owner and just ask them if they want to continue on their own or merge into one group. All of the usernames on the MediaWiki discussion about this topic is another source.
Also, we can start the project as a namespace on this project, and then if it grows beyond this project, we can branch off into our own project. Then we just setup a wikifarm where the links to the there wiki can have shortcuts with the same namespace as what we currently have. This will make it a clean break. But that would mean that we should select a namespace name that can easily be used in this type of notation. For example, instead of having a namespace of "student", it should be "stu" or "sz", as somebody else suggested. This is similar to wikipedia's format for foreign language pages being referenced.
One other point, it is much easier to setup the foundation for a student project when one has access to the server to take advantage of server scripts and other things. I can work on things locally, and then I can just export the articles, zip the images, and then import them to somebody who has server and sysop privileges. I already have 6,000 articles in my personal database. They are idioms, source text of public domain short stories (Aesop's fables, fairy tales, mythology, folklore, etc.), country articles from wikipedia, US state articles from wikipedia, and a bunch of templates for formatting. I did not rewrite anything. Nor have I added images to the database. I just linked to commons. But the foundation is there, even if the text needs to be rewritten. Melissa Newman 22:13, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Student Citizenidum Quorum issues

Melissa, could you perhaps more specifically address the more specific, core points I made in my post above? Specifically, lack of quorum, who is going to get it started (not me), and whether it actually has any point if parents aren't going to look at wiki web pages with their kids (but need ppt or similar format). --Larry Sanger 01:36, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
Sorry it took a bit for me to get back. I need to think things over myself ... plus other things external to this.
As for who could lead it, you mentioned full time. Volunteer and full time don't go hand in hand unless you want a retired person. This is run by a foundation. Wikipedia is a foundation and it has a core group of 5 people that are paid full time salary. If you are looking for a core group that is dedicated full time, would that entail a salary? Here is a list of people I know off the top of my head are available and will to do the job, provided there is a salary. Some can work full time while others can work part-time to split a job. All would jump at the change to work from home on a project like this.
  • Melissa Newman. Graduate of Rochester Institute of Technology. I can handle the technical oversight, organization, etc. I have self studied educational theories and what is expected knowledge for the elementary school years. Very experienced in low level library and detailed work. Did software engineering work for the FDA (through other companies) -- software requirements, software design, data mapping, unit testing, and user manuals -- writing low level library code -- writing code to do data conversion/manipulation, data tagging, and data organization.
  • Kedma Cantor. Graduate from University of Judaism in California. She can handle the education side. She enjoys writing, and she has an education degree. Plus she has experience managing schools, adult education, family educational activities, etc.
  • Johanna Cohen. She is trained to be a editor by her mother. She is a graduate of Yale in Asian studies. She is also a certified social worker.
  • Johanna's mother. She is an experienced editor, and a retired lawyer.
  • Jody Green. Certified social work and certified doula.
  • Tzippy Shiller. Graduate from Yale in Nursing. Currently at home to care for a newborn baby.
  • Friend of Kedma's that enjoys story writing.
Plus, if I spread the word to homeschooling boards, I could get 10 more people easily.
I think that we have two different visions for a this project. Power point is used to entertain. I am interested in creating a tool that parents would have confidence in. This is similair to the concept that Wikipedia is a tool.
The project that you are envisioning, ppt presentations, flash, and other entertainment would be best to partner with Webkinz (http://www.webkinz.com) That is the current "in" website for children 6 - 13. It is cartoonish, flashy, fun, etc. It is also safe. There is chat and email, but it is controlled. For example, a child can type in "boy" and "friend", but not "boy friend". This restriction is due to the fact that the makers of the website believe that children under 13 should not be talking about boyfriends through email and chat. Plus there is restrictions to prevent the giving out of person info (phone, address, etc.). Plus the entertainment part of the website is made up of rooms. It would be very easy for them to make up a room called "library" that could contain educational videos on a variety of topics or it could even have simple encyclopedia articles that could be read to the child. The goal would be fun research as opposed to the more serious research that would come with school reports. If a child wants to take their webkinz on vacation, they could take them to France as opposed to just some generic island or cruise ship. Then they could learn about France by looking at the travel brochure. On a Presidential election day, the webkinz could go and vote. Once the project goes into the webkinz world, the ideas could be endless.
But that is a whole project in itself. The images and sound would be handled by Webkinz the company (if it is not broke, don't fix it), and the content would have to handled by true professional experts, aka Master's in Elementary Education. It is a valid project, very useful, worth the investment, but not what I am envisioning.
What I an envisioning is a useful tool for students. Due to the nature of a wiki, I would envision it more to be a starting point in doing research than an ending point. If we make the valid assumption that teachers will not accept this site as a valid research site for 10 years, then the obvious question would be what would the value of it until it proves to be reliable? If I was a student why would I want to go to this site?
My teacher gives me a report on Ancient Egypt. What now? It is a pretty big topic. What are some ideas for narrowing it down? I could write a report about the Nile River and its importance. I could write a report about clothing and its social meaning; religion; pyramids; bible stories; King Tut; housing; slavery; customs and traditions; holidays; A paragraph about each of these to give a general introduction would accomplish this. A digest format would work. Maybe even create a tab called "report ideas".
Now that I have my topic. I am going to need some books. What are some good books to check out from the library? What dewey decimal number do I look under for books? Some nice sound files of music from that period would be nice. What about art work and other images? What about video? The "bibliography" or "reference" tab could handle the outside references. The "gallery", "sound", and "video" tab could handle the non-text issues.
I envision that parents and teachers to use the website for the video, sound, and images. If the pages are formatted to print out nicely (layout is thought about instead of text just being typed), teachers could print out the text to have kids read in class. Parents may go on it with their kids. They could go to the animals gallery page, see the picture of the bear and click on the sound of the bear.
I don't really think that flash and ppt are required, because a reference site is a tool to look up information. It is not a place to go to get entertained. It does not need to be boring, but it does not require flash and ppt. Look at how kids encylopedia's are setup. They are generally 2 - 8 pages with graphics, colorful layout, and one page dedicated to questions. Some good examples are Kids Discover magazine, Backyard magazine, Scholastic weekly reader, Scholastic Children's Encyclopedia, etc.
The valid question that I did ask myself was, "With Encarta at the level that it is right now and it is free, do we need anything else?" The problem is that you are stuck with what the Encarta board provides and nothing more. A parent or teacher cannot add to it. For example, both Encarta and Wikipedia have "The Crossing of the Delaware" painting, but Encarta's is smaller than wikipedia's.
The bottom line is that everything goes back to the original issues. Wikipedia has a whole bunch of images that are great, but due to their free form format with no controls it is not a place that most parents that understand fully what Wikipedia truly is would want their children to freely browse.
Media wiki provides a way to access images without having have access to commons. This accomplished by allowing access to upload.mediawiki.org, but restricting access to commons.wikipedia.org. The only way to take advantage of this is to create another MediaWiki website that allows images to be access that are desirable, but does not display images that are not desirable.
One of your own personal goals was to create a family friendly environment. Kids need a safe place to be able to do research. The concept of this website is great, but from the articles I have read and the feedback that I have gotten on the forums, your current set of editors are mostly college professors that are comfortable writing at a college level.
I have other thoughts and issues that I can talk to you about in a more private format, if you desire. But I think that this is enough for now. I am still continuing on things off line for right now. Melissa Newman 16:55, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Physics editorship for Paul Wormer

Larry, Paul Wormer wants to become a Physics Editor. In my opinion, he is eminently qualified to be one. I am sure that Daniel Mietchen would agree that Paul is very qualified to be Physics Editor. I would hazard a guess that Paul has worked on more Physics articles in CZ than anyone else.

Can you please see that Paul is made an Editor? Milton Beychok 16:41, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I support the request, as previously stated on Paul's talk page. --Daniel Mietchen 13:49, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Guys--Paul Wormer is now a Physics Editor! In the future, however, please make your recommendation by e-mail...in case the answer has to be "no," as it sometimes does. --Larry Sanger 14:26, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Restart of proposal system

Hello. Due to a lack of activity and attention on my part, the Proposal System has ground to a halt and discussion on all proposals has stopped. I decided to clean out the system by marking all proposals as inactive and removing their drivers. This also happened to your proposals "Self-Correction Policy" and "Pilot to allow Citizens to take credit for pages". I would be delighted if you decide that you want to take one or both proposals up again. You can do this by updating the proposal record(s), which can now be found at CZ:Proposals/Driverless. Please do not hesitate to ask if anything is unclear. Yours, Jitse Niesen 22:37, 23 February 2009 (UTC) (Proposals Manager)

Hi Jitse. That's fine--does this mean that you have decided to stay on as Proposals Manager? --Larry Sanger 00:24, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

It means that I feel responsible for the tasks I took on. To be honest, once you know what needs to be done it's not an onerous task, as long as you keep on top of it, so I won't mind staying on. My mistake was to let it slip for a while, and then the amount of stuff that needs to be done becomes rather overbearing. I think it's fair to say that given my track record, there are better candidates out there. So if anybody wants to take it over from me, then let me know and I'll help with the transition. Otherwise, I guess I'll stay on by default. -- Jitse Niesen 15:00, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

As always, admirably clear. I say let's keep you on for now, unless someone shows up and offers to take over. You can also make it clear on your user page or elsewhere, if you want, that you're willing to give up the post to someone motivated to take it over. --Larry Sanger 15:06, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Instructions (just testing)

Welcome to the Dispute Resolution System. Please use this page to report problems of all sorts—personal, editorial, or other conflicts you might have with others in the Citizendium community. It is closely watched by many people, so you should see a rapid response to new problems you submit.

Types of problems to submit include intractable editorial disagreements between authors or editors, appeals of editorial or constabulary decisions, violations of policy, and low-key but unacceptable patterns of abuse on the part of individuals.

How to submit a problem:

  • To submit a problem, edit this page and start a new section. Give the section a heading by typing == and ==, between which you write a brief, neutral, dispassionate description of the problem.
  • Below the section heading, describe the problem concisely and, again, neutrally and dispassionately. Be sure to include links to any pages where the dispute is ongoing or abuse is evident.
  • Sign your name by typing four tildes (~~~~).

What will happen next? Constables, Mediators, and Editorial Review Committee members monitor this page. At least one of them should post an analysis, refer the matter to the proper group, and tell you what will happen next. If there is any disagreement about where the matter should go, the Editor-in-Chief will be called in.

All attempts to debate or resolve problems on this page will be deleted from this page. The purpose of this page is only to clarify and refer problems, not to resolve them.

The above is being discussed here. --Larry Sanger 19:59, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Query

Larry, would be possible to start a new Workgroup for Statistics? See here for background. Don't know if it would be right for now, but it could be something to keep in mind for the future. Hendra I. Nurdin 11:24, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Hendra--yes, it would. The strategy would be simply to make a quick resolution to the Editorial Council. If no one else does this soon, please remind me and I'll do it. --Larry Sanger 15:29, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi Larry, just wanted to check if anyone has submitted a quick resolution about the above to the EC. Thanks. Hendra I. Nurdin 00:21, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
Hendra, do really need a new Workgroup for Statistics now that we have just adopted (via a vote of the Editorial Council on Resolution 0014) to allow the formation of subgroups? It would be quite easy now to form a Statistics subgroup ... just contact Chris Day. Milton Beychok 01:03, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
Hendra, I agree with Milt's answer (thanks Milt). --Larry Sanger 01:17, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
Oh, OK, I was not aware of this subgroup development. Well, if in your opinion subgroup's the best way to do this then I'll just leave it at that (though I guess those who view statistics as a separate discipline will probably not agree to putting it as a subgroup of math). Hendra I. Nurdin 05:43, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
Hendra, a subgroup may be affiliated with up to 3 main workgroups ... in other words, a Statistic subgroup may be a subgroup of up to 3 main workgroups. It would not be limited to merely being a subgroup of the Mathmatics main workgroup. Read CZ:Subgroups in detail. Regards, Milton Beychok 06:11, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Energy (science)

Larry, Milton and I tried hard to answer your critical questions on the talk page of energy. I hope you're satisfied with the result. --Paul Wormer 21:33, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Thank you

Hi Larry! Thank you for your warm welcome. I hope to be a useful art editor in Citizendium. Sincerely, (Marika Herskovic 21:40, 7 April 2009 (UTC))

Open Letter

Hi Larry. I left a note on your WP talk page as well. I think it would be perfectly acceptable to post an open letter on either your user page or user talk page. I understand it wouldn't receive the wide audience it might at Jimbo's page in the short run, but perhaps over the long-haul it would gather a wider audience. Hope I'm not out of line (either here or there) by doing this, but I guess the "In for a penny - In for a pound" saying often finds it's way to my door. Best. Ched Davis 19:02, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, that's an idea--but I guess one copy, on the blog, is enough as far as I'm concerned. Although I'm about to post an edit to the copy clarifying that the letter is GFDL and can be posted freely. --Larry Sanger 19:11, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

On user page history

I've used my Constabulary powers to move this entire discussion to a more appropriate place in the Forums at: http://forum.citizendium.org/index.php/topic,2648.0.html Hayford Peirce 19:59, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

That's groovy with me. --Larry Sanger 01:20, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

We now have users Sekhar Talluri and Talluri Sekhar ??

Hi, Larry: Just for your info if you were not already aware of it, the same person now has two different user pages. One is User:Sekhar Talluri and the other is User:Talluri Sekhar. Could you straighten that out? Milton Beychok 15:42, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

It's under control for the moment, Milton, trust me. Speaking as a Constable. Hayford Peirce 16:06, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, I wasn't paying attention. I'll fix it. --Larry Sanger 18:46, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Hi, Larry, the explanation is as per the email I sent you. We just need to make sure that he remains an *editor*! Thanks! Hayford Peirce 19:21, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
I'll get it! D. Matt Innis 23:55, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for getting on top of this & fixing my mistake... --Larry Sanger 02:37, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
It wasn't so much a mistake you made, I think, as just trying to play catch-up with getting this guy approved as an editor who had *also* put in his wrong email address. Complications.... Hayford Peirce 03:44, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
We got you covered :) D. Matt Innis 23:56, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

A near name clash

Larry, spotted this accidentally while surfing the internet:

Citizendia http://www.citizendia.org/

It's a wikipedia mirror and judging by the date at the bottom of the page, only just started up (17 March 2009). No idea who runs it. Meg Ireland 06:42, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

I searched BetterWhois.com and that came up with the following Romanian registrant
Domain Name:CITIZENDIA.ORG
Created On:16-Sep-2006 16:49:58 UTC
Last Updated On:18-Apr-2009 00:30:31 UTC
Expiration Date:16-Sep-2010 16:49:58 UTC
Sponsoring Registrar:GoDaddy.com, Inc. (R91-LROR)
Registrant Name:Bogdan Giusca
Registrant Organization:Bogdan Giusca
Registrant Street1:Str. Schitului, nr.11 Bl.11B
Registrant Street2:Ap 15 Et.2
Registrant Street3:
Registrant City:Bucuresti
Registrant State/Province:
Registrant Postal Code:032042
Registrant Country:RO
Registrant Phone:+40.213467348
Registrant Email:bogdan2005@yahoo.co.uk
Admin ID:GODA-259443627
Admin Name:Bogdan Giusca
Admin Organization:Bogdan Giusca
Admin Street1:Str. Schitului, nr.11 Bl.11B
Admin Street2:Ap 15 Et.2
Admin Street3:
Admin City:Bucuresti
Admin State/Province:
Admin Postal Code:032042
Admin Country:RO
Admin Phone:+40.213467348
According to the same source Citizendium.org was created On:12-Sep-2006 00:21:42 UTC (4 days earlier).
--Paul Wormer 08:01, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
Apparently he is an admin on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Bogdangiusca , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Bogdangiusca & http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Bogdan_Giusca .Meg Ireland 08:20, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
Very interesting.
But no, according to the record above, it was created September 16, one day after my original announcement. There was no one using anything remotely like Citizendium--it got no hits at all from Google--and I'm pretty sure I would have checked "Citizendia," because I'm very thorough about that sort of thing when picking names. Nobody knows about them...anyway, I am inclined to send them a mail telling them to shut down, because of the obvious confusability of names and direct competitive and misleading nature of site. --Larry Sanger 12:01, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
I guess Bogdan Giusca is making money out of the site (he has ads) and won't easily give in.--Paul Wormer 15:33, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
People deliberately use near miss sites like wikipedai for advertising. Peter Jackson 17:53, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Moved the following from Talk:Larry Sanger

Specialized editor

Larry, I see some articles that are ready for approval. Could I be made specialist editor for the following categories based on my indicated experience below?

  1. Boxing: 2-time state amateur champion and long-time fan
  2. Bowling: 1-time city league champion and long-time bowler
  3. Soccer: 10+ years playing and paid referee of youth soccer leagues for several years
  4. Sailing: Have sailed on boats ranging from 16' cats to 44' yachts (island living is sooo tough!)

David E. Volk 21:47, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi David, sorry for the long delay in replying to this, but...well...the question is whether you can articulate knowledge of the subject reliably. Engaging in a sport doesn't make you an expert. Have you written or done anything else that establishes an expertise? Refereeing is a definite credential, more than being a champion (no offense, I'm sure you can kick my ass and everybody's on CZ!). For instance I've taught Irish fiddle for a living, am on first-name basis with some famous fiddlers, and have played for 14 years...but I wouldn't call myself an expert by any means. And I think I know how to recognize the real experts. Maybe you could follow up by e-mail? --Larry Sanger 21:08, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

If I make stick my own two cents in -- with all due respect to David and his credentials, I really don't think that they are enough to enable him to be called an Editor. An important part of the CZ ethos, and public cachet, is that Approved articles are approved by credentialed experts. And that the development of articles is guided by experts. To take extreme examples, would, could, should, Mickey Mantle and Pancho Gonzales, two of the greatest players ever in their respective sports, be given editorships here because of their other-worldly physical skills? I think that I'd prefer to have Red Smith and Bud Collins, say, be given editorships. I myself used to play tennis on a pretty high level, just below that of the very best, and I've followed it fairly closely over the years. And I've written a number of fictional works that have been published by *real* publishers, and paid for, as well as having an undergraduate degree in English from a prestigious university, but if I were offered the opportunity to be made a Sports or Literature editor, I would instantly turn it down. I'm simply not knowledgeable enough in either field, and I'm *very* far from being qualified. In sum, I think it best that, regarding Editorships, we stick with our existing policy.... Hayford Peirce 22:51, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Eamil address?

Larry, I emailed bugs the instant the cite went down, but I don't think anyone saw it for hours. Could you remind me what your email address is so next time I can send an email directly to you at the same time? Of course, send it privately to my email address. David E. Volk 20:55, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

It's sanger@citizendium.org -- thanks -- sending the notice to both places is the best way.

I'm very sorry we haven't gotten on top of it, but I'm waiting on one of our tech guys at this point... --Larry Sanger 21:03, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Does email to bugs or sanger@citizendium.org get through when the system is down? I was thinking more of your gmail or yahoo account. David E. Volk 15:43, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
Mail to me & bugs almost always gets through because it's on a different server. The forums and blog usually stay up too. I hardly ever check blarneypilgrim@yahoo.com but I'm more inclined to if sanger@citizendium.org is inaccessible. --Larry Sanger 01:46, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Hawaiian alphabet

Hi Larry, I'm a really new author (got to get past the WP habit of saying "editor"), and have written two articles, Gobioides broussonnetii, and Hawaiian alphabet. The first one is merely a copy of the version I wrote on wikipedia, but the second one is new, fresh, and is up to Citizendiums standards. Thus, I feel it is ready to be approved. Unfortunately, there are four editors tottal, spanning two workgroups, that would be considered an "expert" in the subject. Unfotunately, none of them seem to be around. Could you take a look at Hawaiian alphabet and either A)make the decision yourself, or B)forward my request to an active editor with experience in the field?Drew R. Smith 12:52, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Drew, the job of helping to get articles approved, if warranted, is handled by our Approvals Manager who is Joe Quick. I strongly suggest that you contact him, not on his user page but at User talk:Approvals Manager. Getting an article approved can often require quite a while, so be prepared to be patient. Joe will do his best to help you. Milton Beychok 00:20, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
Milton answered correctly. I was travelling...more on Drew's user talk page. --Larry Sanger 02:35, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
Just wondering, where were you traveling?Drew R. Smith 05:48, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

New subpage type to accomodate content to be transcluded onto Welcome page as AOTW

Hi Larry, please take a look at this message and comment whether you'd agree to put this stuff into a dedicated subpage, primarily for articles being approved or nominated for approval, and for those nominated for display on the Welcome page. --Daniel Mietchen 22:49, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

There is also a need for Proof subpages in mathematics, discussed at several places in the forums recently (e.g. here). Please comment on how to proceed. Thanks! --Daniel Mietchen 11:05, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
... and here as well Peter Schmitt 12:13, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Relicensing GFDL content

Hi Larry, please take a look at these two messages on the relicensing of content originally imported from GFDL-licensed sources, and comment. Thanks! --Daniel Mietchen 16:01, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Process for justifying, testing and installing extensions on Citizendium

I raised a question on the technical issues forum that one of the respondents suggested you may be more qualified to answer. Specifically, I asked how it is decided to add an extension to Citizendium? The motivation for this question is that the availability of more powerful tools on Citizendium could attract contributors who in their absence might be inclined to work on Wikipedia or other information warehouse stores [pun intended :-D]. In my original post I gave an example of a set of tools that might provide such benefit. Some background might be useful. I originally contemplated writing a book and contributing it to Wikibooks. For various reasons that seems less likely now. However, during the process of scoping out the work, it became apparent that the tools for adding content metadata in mulit-wiki-page works (e.g., table of contents numbers in wiki section and page titles, references, footnotes and citation annotations, indexes) in Mediawiki based wikis are lacking. The Cite extension presumes references and citations exist on the same page. Table of contents numbering cannot be transcluded into section or page titles. There is no support for automatically building indexes, either on the same page or across multiple pages. Providing better tools such as these might attract contributors to Citizendium. [I think I can make a case that multi-wiki-page article support is relevant to Citizendium]

However, this specific example is unimportant (other than as evidence that the existence of such tools might be a differentiator for Citizendium). I am actually interested in the more general question of what decision processes exist, if any, to justify, test and install extensions on Citizendium. Off the top of my head, at least the following criteria would be important. 1) Are there good justifications for adding the extension (I have always found it curious that the Hiero extension is installed on most Mediawiki based wikis)? 2) Is the extension properly tested so its installation is unlikely to introduce either stability or performance problems on the site? 3) Is the extension compatible with the version of Mediawiki used by Citizendium? These are examples of criteria. I am interested on your take on these and whether you believe others are as or more important.

Finally, I should mention that I have, over the last couple of weeks, been corresponding with the Mediawiki developers (i.e., using wikitech-1) on the topic of regression testing. In my view the Mediawiki software has significant QA issues and there is a good possibility that if this is not corrected, one day it will fall over and have difficulty standing up again. I notice that Citizendium runs on 1.13.2 (modified). So, one consideration in this issue is the stability of the base code and how this affects the desirability of adding new extensions. Any thoughts, insights or other comments? Dan Nessett 18:03, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

"because of a peculiarity in the MediaWiki system"

I just noticed this in the review form. There should be a $wgAccountRequestMinWords variable to change or remove the requirement. Aaron Schulz 23:50, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Aaron, we just had a new registrant that said he had tried to register but never heard from us. He applied three more times before he realized that he had not used 50 words in the bio. We finally did get his last application. Could the problem above be why we never got it? If so, that might be a very big deal because we definitely have not had the number of apps that we should. D. Matt Innis 01:06, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
I don't understand what either of you are saying. Are you saying that we should rewrite the requirements so that we do NOT require 50 words AND redo the system so that applications are not rejected if they don't have 50 words? Or are you saying that we should keep the requirement BUT redo the system so that the application is sent anyway, even if there aren't 50 words? Or are you saying that there is NO notice at the top of the page of a failed application saying that the 50 word are needed? I logged out yesterday, then tried to send in a test application with only 10 words written: I got a notice (not a large one, but at least it was there) at the top of the application page saying that 50 words were needed. IF I COULD FIND THE DAMN editing page for THIS part, I would make that notice much BIGGER.... Hayford Peirce 01:14, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
Normally the notice is bigger, but the site CSS is making it small. The CSS class 'errorbox' can control this. At any rate, that UI message above is worded as if it the 50 word requirement is a weird obstacle that has to be worked around. My point was that if it is problematic, then it can simply be changed. Aaron Schulz 05:38, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
Well, there's no problem if an applicant actually writes 50 words and then clicks the submit button. If he *doesn't* write 50 words, and clicks the submit button, the same application page remains in front of him, now with a little notice on top of the page that he has to write 50 words. A professor in Holland finally got accepted last week after emailing the Constabulary that he had been trying in vain for two months to join. He had never paid any attention to the 50-word requirement. It was a result of that that I added the CAPS stuff about the 50 words. I'd ALSO like to have that notice at the top of the failure page in LARGER letters.... But I can't find the page in order to edit it. Hayford Peirce 17:04, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
So then the "peculiarity" is not that it isn't sent but that the message is too small. Changing MediaWiki:common.css is the way to may it bigger. Aaron Schulz 21:02, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
I've imported future MW CSS (in shared.css) for these items. CZ may want different colors or what not. Aaron Schulz 21:16, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

The danger of relying uncritically on things

Hello. I just read Kathryn Schulz's interview of you. You said:

I think it's pretty dangerous to rely in an uncritical way on Wikipedia.

I've been telling students for some time that it's pretty dangerous to rely uncritically on correctly functioning calculators. (And that's without even mentioning the habit of so many of them of using calculators as anesthetics.) But I think properly functioning calculators are good things. So if you meant your comment as anything more than the weakest of criticisms that would also apply to calculators, you should beef it up.

(This may be related to the issue of relying uncritically on spell checkers. They won't tell you that "intercession" and "intersession" are two different things. Hence a school's academic calendar says "Intercession: December 20th–January 4th".) Michael Hardy 18:59, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

PS: If you like Google Maps, you'll probably love Google Earth. Michael Hardy 23:52, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

It mussed bee awl rite. The spell chequer tolled mi sew. Peter Jackson 16:51, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Congratulations Larry!

You did it, way to go! Thanks for everything!! D. Matt Innis 14:23, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, thanks for getting the project started, Larry! --Daniel Mietchen 14:29, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
You're welcome and thanks for sticking with it and making it happen! --Larry Sanger 14:34, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
Congratulations on starting and keeping Citizendium afloat.Mary Ash 17:03, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

You've been Nominated!

Someone has nominated you for a position in the new Citizendium. They have noticed you're dedication to the project and like what they see. To be listed on the ballot for the position, it is necessary that you accept the nomination on the [[Archive:Citizendium Ballot for the Management Council|Nomination page]. Just place accept next to your name along with the four tildes. The nomination period will close at midnight October 7 (UTC). Article 54 of the new charter details the requirements:

Article 54

  • In conjunction with the Declaration of the Editor-in-Chief regarding the effectivity of this Charter, there shall be a call for nominations for the following offices: Managament Council (five seats), Editorial Council (seven seats), Managing Editor (one), Ombudsman (one). This shall be the effective date of the Charter.
  • Any Citizen may nominate candidates for these positions.
  • Nominations shall be collected and collated by the Chief Constable.
  • Nominations shall be accepted no more than fourteen days after the effective date of the charter; the ballot shall be available starting on the twentieth day after the effective date of the charter; the election shall be completed no more than twenty-eight days after the effective date of the charter; all elected officials shall begin their term of office on the thirtieth day after the effective date of the charter.
  • Only candidates who accept their nomination shall be eligible to appear on the ballot. Nominated candidates can accept nominations for no more than two official functions. Accepting a nomination serves as a declaration of commitment, in the case of being elected, to fulfill this function until the limit of the term.
  • All positions shall be elected by a simple majority of the voting citizenry. In the case of a tie, an immediate run-off election shall be held.
  • In the event that a candidate has been elected for two functions, the candidate shall declare which one he or she accepts within three days of announcement of the election results. In the event that such a declaration has not been made during this period, the candidate shall be considered elected for the position for which the nomination was accepted first. The same procedure applies to a reserve member that becomes elected by a seat being vacated this way.

If you would like to make a statement to help voters, click the "Statement" link to the right of your name.

Thanks again for the commitment you're making to assure that Citizendium becomes the premier quality online source we all have envisioned.

D. Matt Innis 13:15, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Eastern Orthodox Church

Just to let you know I've invited the Ombudsman. Peter Jackson 09:16, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

A sight for sore eyes

And not a moment too soon. ;-) D. Matt Innis 17:50, 13 May 2011 (CDT)

Thanks, Matt! --Larry Sanger 19:28, 13 May 2011 (CDT)

WP Hierarchy

Larry: I have tried to outline the way WP is organized at Wikipedia#Administration, but the structure is fairly complicated. I wonder if you might take a look at this discussion and determine whether I have the whole story here.

Many thanks, John R. Brews 14:44, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi John, I replied on the talk page. --Larry Sanger 15:32, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Funding

Two items could be added to the "WE NEED YOUR HELP!" box. Something such as "Current funds for servers will be exhausted 2013-13-13." Also "Donations this month total $xxx.xx; the monthly requirement is $yyy.yy." And of course, the numbers need updating daily at least. BTW, I tried to register for a forum but didn't receive approval. Might have chosen the wrong forum. Regards, ... Peter Lyall Easthope 16:08, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree that we need updates much more frequently, and "daily at least" seems to be a good thing to strive for (as long as there have been changes during that day). --Daniel Mietchen 00:23, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
Peter, has anyone approved your request to join the forums yet?
If you want daily updates, you really need someone other than me to be treasurer! Monthly is the best I'll be able to handle. I'll try to update the page soon. --Larry Sanger 18:47, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

My suggestion is here. Approval for the forum is no longer needed, thanks. Ideally the financial status would be updated by software. Not sure how. Can any bank account be read by software? Regards, ... Peter Lyall Easthope 06:35, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Hi Larry, as far as I can see from CZ:Financial report, we have funds remaining to keep the servers running on the order of one month. Is this correct? --Daniel Mietchen 21:06, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
Daniel, nope--we have over $2,000, as I have just stated at CZ:Financial report. I have paid for several months out of my own pocket and am not asking to be reimbursed. There were also several other, very generous donations. No funds that were deposited to the Paypal account I set up for CZ were transferred to my own bank accounts--all of those funds are all still there. I will be transferring them soon, however, to Hayford's new CZ Paypal account. --Larry Sanger 20:10, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Thank you, Larry. --Daniel Mietchen 06:45, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Ok, now we have faced up to reality about the role of the financial representative, how about the role of Management Council member next. David Finn 07:38, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

You mean I haven't been participating, perhaps, David? I can't quite tell what you mean. But if that's what you mean, I am of course perfectly willing to "face up to reality" regarding my non-participation. I would be happy to step aside. Frankly, between my new projects and family, I don't have time for CZ. I volunteered for the Management Council only because I had the impression that warm bodies were lacking. --Larry Sanger 00:43, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
I see... I guess you didn't notice that during the election you were not unopposed, and in fact your nearest opponent received only two votes less than you? Anyway, now that you mention it I notice you haven't voted on any MC matter for three and a half months or so, and if you don't have time for CZ like you say I guess we can assume you won't be voting on any more matters. Nevertheless according to CZ rules it is up to you whether you wish to continue to occupy the position in place of someone who may have the time. My gut instinct would be to give that someone the chance. David Finn 15:50, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
Nah, Larry's doing just fine. I doubt seriously that most would have re-donated had he not rejoined the effort. Larry's value is just being who he is. Not many have that distinction. You'll get a chance to run next time, David. D. Matt Innis 16:59, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
I disagree with David Finn about you resigning, Larry. The MC is working just fine (we have passed 4 motions this month) and there is no reason for you to resign right now. If you feel you do not have the time to participate, you can request a temporary leave of absence and then resign after March. That will avoid triggering a special election, which I am sure most of us do not want. Dan Nessett 19:16, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
I wonder how honourary MC positions would be viewed by the Charter or the Citizens who voted. David Finn 20:04, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
All I can say is that it reflects well on the project that you care enough to make an issue of it, David. If people actually care about being in control of it, it's still reasonably robust. Well, I think that's a valid inference.  :-) --Larry Sanger 20:41, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
Some of us certainly do care, Larry. Actually, you have already identified one of the main problems, that we have far too small a community to support such a rigidly formal system of governance.
Larry, I am sure you are aware of how many people contribute to this site. It works out that there are far less contributors than elected officials.
I'll say that again - we have more elected officials than we have contributors. More officials than we have warm bodies.
Dan is saying that if you don't have the time to do MC business then you can take a leave of absence right up to the next elections, but I hope you will agree that such a thing would be a gross manipulation of the Charter. The people who voted (and there were more voters than elected officials, you got over 30 votes as did your nearest opponent) weren't voting just to keep the system in place at all costs, they were voting for individuals to be on the MC and are entitled to get what they voted for, don't you think?
Dans idea seems to be to protect the idea of the MC at all costs, even if it means him sitting up there all on his own telling us all what to do. The danger of course with leaving the MC solely in the hands of one individual is that MC business ceases to be about and for the community and more about what that individual wants. That is why we need either MC participation or reverting to a looser more informal style of management, like you suggested on the forum.
I appreciate that you may not have the time for this function, Larry. Dan says that there is no standard set for active MC participation, but you are as aware as the rest of us that when we voted we were expecting a certain level of participation regardless. For that reason I think it entirely appropriate to consider resignation as there is always a chance that someone who does have the time will step in. David Finn 08:21, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Larry's MC position is not honorary. He has served as the CZ treasurer for the past 7 months when no one else was willing to do so. He has participated in MC discussions, if infrequently. There is no standard set in the charter for what constitutes active participation. Dan Nessett 20:57, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Dan, when asked on the forum about our finances you said that "You need to contact the treasurer, not the MC". It seems that one day the treasurer is not an MC function, and the next it magically is, the only difference being which way you want to portray things. Is that a correct observation? And by the way, I said would be viewed - future tense, no? If you as MC chair are offering out leaves of absence as a way of perpetuating a system that obviously isn't working then you are creating honourary MC memberships, and that seems a clear manipulation of the Charter. David Finn 08:21, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
The person who is appointed treasurer need not be a member of the MC and is not, by virtue of that appointment, an MC member. The treasurer has the responsibility of paying the bills and providing a monthly financial report. Larry took on that role because we could find no one else to do it. In a sense he was acting pro tempore until the MC could find someone to do the job. Consequently, his work as the treasurer is legitimately viewed as MC work.
The MC chair does not offer leaves of absence. Any MC member has the option of asking for a leave of absence of up to 120 days. To view this as a manipulation of the charter only serves to demonstrate a total lack of understanding of its content. Dan Nessett 17:25, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Let me do an end run around this: I'm going to start participating, at least a little more, in the MC. --Larry Sanger 20:30, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Now what was the topic in this section? Umm ... oh yes, funding! The financial report with monthly updates is good. My request for daily updates is retracted. Still I wonder about putting the last three or so months in a location which a casual reader won't miss. Nothing like perilously low funds to motivate a donation. Regards, ... Peter Lyall Easthope 01:25, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Actually, Peter, I'm no longer the treasurer... --Larry Sanger 13:44, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Nominations for Management and Editorial Councils

You have been nominated for seats on both the Management and Editorial Councils in the July-August Special Election. The nominator was myself. To accept or decline these nominations, please visit the Nominations page here (for the Management Council seat) and here (for the Editorial Council Author seat) by midnight UTC on July 27th. You may write an election statement for each if you wish (linked from the Nominations page).

The Management Council seat runs until June 30th, 2014 or June 30th, 2015 (the successful candidate with the fewest votes receiving the shorter term) and the Editorial Council seat expires on December 31st, 2013. In the event that Referendum 1 is passed, all seats will expire on June 30th, 2014. Thanks! John Stephenson 17:09, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

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