User talk:Russell D. Jones: Difference between revisions

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==Welcome!==
#REDIRECT [[User:Russell D. Jones/Talk]]
{{Getting Started}}
'''Welcome to the ''Citizendium!'''''  We hope you will contribute [[CZ:Be Bold|boldly]] and well.  You'll probably want to know [[CZ:The Author Role|how to get started as an author]].  Just look at [[CZ:Getting Started]] for other helpful "startup" links, and [[CZ:Home]] for the top menu of community pages.  Be sure to stay abreast of events via [https://lists.purdue.edu/mailman/listinfo/citizendium-l the Citizendium-L (broadcast) mailing list] (do join!) and [http://blog.citizendium.org the blog].  Please also join the [[CZ:Mailing lists|workgroup mailing list(s)]] that concern your particular interests.  You can test out [[CZ:How to edit an article|editing]] in the [[CZ:Sandbox|sandbox]] if you'd like.  If you need help to get going, the [http://forum.citizendium.org/ forums] is one option.  That's also where we discuss policy and proposals.  You can ask any [[:Category:CZ Constables|constable]] for help, too.  Me, for instance!  Just put a note on their "talk" page.  Again, welcome and have fun! [[User:Dan Nachbar|Dan Nachbar]] 14:07, 17 November 2007 (CST)
 
{{ewelcome}} --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 21:45, 19 February 2008 (CST)
 
== Welcome and thanks ==
I'm just spending some time this morning thanking the newer/returned people who did weekend wiki work.  So, thanks, nice to have you here! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 08:17, 19 November 2007 (CST)
 
== Metadata ==
(In response to [[User_talk:Robert_W_King/Archive_2#Vanderlip_and_Metadata|this post]]):
 
Yep, that's great!  Just remember, the pagename is the actual name of the page (should be the same as the URL and in the wiki) and abc is just how it's categorized by.  Also, there is no precedence for categories (yet) so whatever order you wish to put them in does not affect which workgroups get priority (if any really).  --[[User:Robert W King|Robert W King]] 16:04, 19 November 2007 (CST)
 
== welcome back! ==
 
Welcome back! two items:
# can we make you an editor? CZ policy requires three editors approve history articles and the others have vanished on us so we need your help.
# how can we link CZ with the [http://historywiki.mich.edu EMU History Wiki] ?? have you seen our Eduzendium project? see http://en.citizendium.org/wiki/CZ:Citizendium_Press_Releases/Jan242008
We'd love to have your students write CZ articles. [[User:Richard Jensen|Richard Jensen]] 16:18, 18 February 2008 (CST)
:My fear is <!--And I've told Larry this-->that I'd be just another absentee editor.  I'm not here enough to be doing an editor's job.  How dire is the situation?  Are you the only historian/editor? [[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 20:55, 18 February 2008 (CST)
::in practice, yes...alas. (N=15 nominally) dire.  But the excitement is to get students to work.  I'm retired but next week will be talking to a VPAA about my teaching a historiography course in which the kids write CZ articles. [[User:Richard Jensen|Richard Jensen]] 23:00, 18 February 2008 (CST)
:::I don't mean to eavesdrop exactly, but Richard, the latter is great news!  I hope you can swing it. --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 23:06, 18 February 2008 (CST)
::::Sure, I'll apply.
:::::Hey great! we'll try not to seize your weekends and summer vacations. :) [[User:Richard Jensen|Richard Jensen]] 20:31, 19 February 2008 (CST)
::::::Yes, great, nice to have you on board, Russell! --[[User:Larry Sanger|Larry Sanger]] 22:00, 19 February 2008 (CST)
 
== Jefferson & Channing==
 
The debate subpage is a valuable innovation in CZ! [[User:Richard Jensen|Richard Jensen]] 17:01, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:It was already there.  It was an unused subpage category.  I just don't get where Channing is critical of Jefferson, though.  I didn't see it in the couple chapters that I read.--[[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 17:34, 23 February 2008 (CST)
::Channing ridicules Jefferson's contempt for the navy. pp36-7 [[User:Richard Jensen|Richard Jensen]] 18:48, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:::I still don't see it.  Channing is matter of fact.  He explains Jefferson's attempt to entice Samuel Smith to become Secy of Navy (from which comes the oft-reproduce quote about laying up the fleet in the Potomac River), and then the appointment Robert Smith.  He concludes his introductory paragraph, "[http://books.google.com/books?id=ZBYOAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA37&dq=%22Jefferson+and+Gallatin+were+certainly+most+desirous%22&num=30&as_brr=0&ei=s8rAR5K2NoHgiQGOz5ixCA Jefferson and Gallatin were certainly most desirous to limit naval expenditure in every possible way but they reckoned without the North African pirates.  Indeed instead of laying up the ships high and dry on the shore they were obliged to send fleet after fleet to the Mediterranean and to build new vessels better suited for work in those waters]" (37).  I don't see ridicule unless one reads that paragraph as just dripping with sarcasm. --[[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 19:41, 23 February 2008 (CST)
::Channing says it reminds one of Queen Elizabeth who objected to letting the fleet sail because it might damage their paint. TJ and Gallatin hated the navy and wanted to put it in storage (and TJ even joking that it would be destroyed by their "plunderers"][[User:Richard Jensen|Richard Jensen]] 19:48, 23 February 2008 (CST)
:::Okay, but that's not exactly what Channing writes.  And really, ER has a point.  They were nicely painted ships.  Jones.
 
== Definitions updates==
Russel, I replied with the following on your Forum question:
 
Russel, the Need Def page will not update for an article with a new definition until the corresponding Talk page has been edited and saved.  You might have noticed that I have lots of "blank line for Need Def" updates on every page to which I add a new definition.
 
So, update the Talk page with a blank line or even just a space, save the edit.  Then refresh the Need Def page and you should see
the article name now removed from the list.  13:04, 15 December 2008 [[User:David E. Volk|David E. Volk]]
 
:David, this is not an elegant solution.  There are 784 pages in the history work group that are so tagged.  I don't think that this two step process of (1) writing the definition and then (2) editing the talk page just in order to update the tag is efficient.  I didn't see anywhere that this was explained, either.  And, no, I didn't see your "blank line" anywhere.  I'm just inclined to ignore the tag.  Thanks. Jones.  18:49, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 
== Just wondering... ==
 
Did you get a splinter Lodged in your typing finger?
 
You are right to differentiate. I've put up a question on the forum; I'm not sure if we have clear copyediting standards for when to use polynomials. There's a main article on [[George Patton]], which refers to the best-known G.S. Patton Jr (comma there?); I haven't had need yet to refer to G.S. Patton III in Vietnam, but sooner or later... [[User:Howard C. Berkowitz|Howard C. Berkowitz]] 22:57, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
:Since the 14th edition (and maybe earlier), the Chicago Style has recommended dropping the use of commas in names ("John Quincy Adams Jr." not "John Quincy Adams, Jr.").  I'll look at the forum. [[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 00:09, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
::Grrr. Another step in the downward path to utter intellectual degeneration. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 00:23, 28 December 2008 (UTC), Jr.
:::Cheer up Hayford, we still use commas for nonrestrictive adverbial clauses and introductory participial phrases. [[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 00:59, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Here are the relevant rules.
*[http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/ch06/ch06_toc.html ''Chicago Manual of Style'', 15th ed., §6.49]; 14th ed., §6.53.
*http://www.middlebury.edu/administration/communications/info/jr.htm
Contrarily, see Kenneth G. Wilson, ''[http://www.bartleby.com/68/79/5379.html The Columbia Guide to Standard American English]'' (Columbia, 1993).
::::I'm a Fowler's ''Modern English Usage'', Second Edition, guy myself. (I note that my ''New York Times Manual of Style'' also omits the comma.  No wonder I don't use it....) [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 16:11, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::Well ''The Times'' is a newspaper, and newspapers are notorious for poor grammar because proper grammar (as well as proper usage) is expensive in terms of column space and ink.  Newspaper publishers always know that what their journalists write doesn't ring the cash register bells as quickly as advertisers do.  And if it comes down to a choice between proper English and advertising space, guess which side wins.  So, for me, a newspaper style guide is a better doorstop than a style manual.  -- Jones.
 
== Vision ... blurring ... sight ... fading ==
I started poking around regarding models and found [[CZ:NOT]].  I don't know.  Everything that I've put up here, and at WP, has been original research (I'd never admit that over there, though).  Everything I write comes from my own head.  Some of it is synthesized, but most of it is me attempting to understand things.  I write to understand.  I've been thinking about writing a series on railroad history, but too many articles would be really short stubs, definitions mostly.  Not allowed [[Welcome_to_Citizendium|here]], but necessary for building comprehension and understanding a complex topic.  I'm not really sold on the encyclopedia ideal.  WP wasn't an encyclopedia; it was more like an "academic simulation;" The editor of the ''Encyclopedia Britannica'' called WP the "encyclopedia game."  The more I think about this, the blurrier it gets.  [[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 15:56, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
:You need to talk to Howard.  We have been discussing the idea of allowing very short articles as opposed to stubs.  For some topics only a small amount is needed to be complete. I think he has a good point and we have been thinking how to fold this into the current system.  Certainly such articles would be useful for related articles subpages to give context to longer articles. [[User:Chris Day|Chris Day]] 16:15, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
::Don't over-intellectualize things to the point where utter paralysis sets in.  Just write what you want, in a more or less encyclopediac way, and let, if necessary, other people have at it with axes and knives and forks and screwdrivers and other tools to turn it into something that Larry can be proud of. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 16:18, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
:::Also, it depends on what you mean by "short" -- how short is "short". If you wrote: "The '''Rock Island Line''' is a mighty good line." as an entire article, that would probably be too short. If you added a couple of more sentences to it, and maybe hummed a couple of bars, that ought to be OK. [[User:Hayford Peirce|Hayford Peirce]] 16:22, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
:It's not the stubs I'm worried about; I'm experienced enough here to [[Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle|know to just type]].  It's more [[CZ Talk:Topic Choice|the original research angle]].  I don't think we're writing an encyclopedia.  [[User:Russell D. Jones|Russell D. Jones]] 16:30, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

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