Talk:Emergence (biology)

Skeptics

Hi Anthony:

While it is beyond debate that systems can be described in language that has no meaning when applied to their constituent subsystems, things like temperature and possibly consciousness, the idea of emergence seems to be just another name for these system properties with the addition of some "magical" elements about the amazing appearance of new properties. To my mind the microscopic behavior of atoms in a gas is more fundamental than some average that we call "temperature", or some property that we call "heat". It is obvious that thermodynamics gets along with such concepts just fine (within its domain of applicability, which excludes things like fluctuations about the mean), and it doesn't have to refer to its underpinnings in statistical mechanics. However, the use of thermodynamics to explain a situation instead of a complete microscopic analysis based upon atomic motions or maybe the Standard model is simply an economy of thought, made necessary by the limited capacity of the human mind and its computer agents, and not the emergence of a whole greater than the sum of its parts.

I'd argue that the notion of " inexplicably unpredicted novel properties, functions and behaviors, ones not observed in the system's subsystems and their components, and not explainable or predictable from complete understanding the components' properties/functions/behaviors considered in isolation from the system that embeds them." is a set with zero members. John R. Brews 14:00, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Here is a discussion of "emergent" gravity as a macroscopic version of a more microscopic theory. Here is a more general presentation of the relation between macro-theories and micro-theories.

in contrast we have this from Answers.com ( a reputable source?):

"Macroevolution, in all its possible meanings, implies the emergence of new complex functions. A function is not the simplistic sum of a great number of "elementary" sub-functions: sub-functions have to be interfaced and coherently integrated to give a smoothly performing whole. In the same way, macroevolution is not the mere sum of elementary microevolutionary events."

I am afraid that this kind of "thinking" flourishes in the mystical environment of emergence. John R. Brews 14:32, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

And we have this:

"In the absence of a dialectical understanding of human history, the question whether individuals create social reality or vice versa continues to shape sociological theory construction. Is society a sui generis, transcendent reality which coercively shapes human behavior or is it, instead, simply equal to the sum of individual actions? Can social facts be explained only by other social facts or does explanation require, to be valid, that social facts be reduced to micro-level explanations?"

which has the merit of posing a question, not making an assertion. John R. Brews 15:06, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Why emergence?

I am concerned that the section Why emergence?, and perhaps this entire article, is phrased too much in the manner of presenting an established predominating view, when it should be presented as simply one point of view, and contrasting views should be presented as well. Although a vast number of proponents can be cited, in my opinion this topic suffers from the exploitation by some of ambiguity and vague terminology to advance mysticism. John R. Brews 14:49, 27 August 2012 (UTC)